Okay, so this interview today is for the Raymond Goetz Oral History Project, and it will be
donated to the Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas.
Could you please tell us your name?
Michael Gordon.
When did you first meet Ray Goetz?
1970, I think, maybe 71, but I think it was 70.
What was the context?
I was a lawyer for the steelworkers.
They often didn't use lawyers for their arbitrations, but it was an arbitration of five grievances
scheduled for the Alice Chalmers Local.
I think it was local 1958, but that could be wrong.
So I didn't have any part in picking yet.
He was picked, I guess, or at least the staff rep for that steelworkers local was a guy
named Les Reynolds, who looked like, was it Brasi, the guy who got stabbed in the hand
and was asleep with the fishers?
He looked like him.
So there were five.
It was at the Usmile Motel on Highway 40, which was a hotel owned by a minor democratic
politician named, I forget his name, it'll come back, maybe.
But he like did the steelworkers favors, and they did him favors.
Leo Brumfield, Leon Brumfield.
He might have been a city councilman, I'm not sure.
Anyway, it was a dumpy motel, and so it was in the hotel.
I looked up Getz.
I was told Getz was the arbitrator, so I looked him up and I saw he went to Beloit, and anything
Wisconsin seemed good to me.
But then I saw that he worked for Safeworth Shaw, which in my time was the leading management
firm in the country.
That made me nervous, and I wasn't sure what I was getting involved with.
Anyway, I show up at the Usmile and do the five grievances that were done separately.
And there wasn't anything eventful that I can remember that happened at the hearing.
But when the decisions, this was, if not my first arbitration, one of my first arbitration.
So I wasn't sure how to judge things because I didn't have that much experience one way
or the other.
The decisions came out in due course, and I read them, and I lost two.
And something bad happened in two, and something bad happened in the other two, and two were
split.
And then I won one, five, and I read the decisions, and I went around and told everybody, this
guy's a terrific arbitrator.
He had a knack of having you lose in such a way that it makes sense.
A lot of times you'd read his decisions and he'd have a perspective or a thought on it
that you'd never had before you read his decision.
So I was a big fan of his and used him often, I don't know how many times, but maybe 20,
maybe more in the next 20 years.
And would use him in places like New York.
I had a bunch of cases with him in New York for, I guess, the flight attendants of TWA.
I had him for a machinist case at TWA in Seattle.
So when I say he wrote decisions that had thoughts that you hadn't had before, he never
got into areas you didn't want to get into.
I learned somewhere along the line that, you know, don't talk about too much because maybe
people don't want you to talk about it.
He could stay on the right side of that line but still have an insight as to what was involved.
And you heard anything about Ray before you met him at that arbitration?
No.
All I knew was that he came out of Safer's shop.
That made me nervous.
He was always right down the middle, insightful, efficient, all the good things.
And I used him a lot around here.
In fact, one thing comes back to me every so often now, but I'm an arbitrator that gives
me the chills.
He was known by the management attorneys and liked by them also, especially at Spencer
Fane.
So a lot of times when I got a case, if there wasn't an arbitrator picked rather than apply
to the FMCS, I'd call up the management attorney if I knew him and we'd try and agree on an
arbitrator.
I talked to Jim Willard once and he said, how about Ray Getz, who was, I guess, my favorite
arbitrator.
And I had the thing that gives me chills now when I said, when I told him, no, let's not
do him.
I just had him a couple of weeks ago.
So for some reason, it made sense to me that the fact that I liked him caused me not to
want to use him too much.
There was some reluctance in using somebody too often, but I'm not sure I can define how
that works.
Anyway, going back to the hearing, one thing he did during the hearing was he took very
close notes and he put his head down close to the desk like sort of a student in high
school and he'd write his notes and so forth.
I don't remember any big fights with the other side in front of him, but his hearings were
always such that he got out of there without feeling any bruises.
If there was a really complicated question or whatever, he'd say something like, well,
let's break that down into pieces.
And he'd break it down into separate pieces and we'd go that way and get through it.
One thing about using him out of town was to get his bill with the decisions and board
and he didn't eat rice.
I remember once we were in New York and he was there for at least a day.
He liked to go to the museums and art galleries and so forth when he was in big cities like
that.
And I don't know what he did or how long he was there, but he sent a bill and the food
cost was $4 in New York.
This is in the 80s, which is when I used him the most.
I think I mentioned it to him once that he ought to eat better and he said something to the
effect he liked to get a hot dog from one of the stands on the street.
So not only is that what he ate, but that's what he charged for, which is sort of remarkable
on two levels.
Did you get all five of those cases done in one day?
Yeah.
Yes.
One of the first arbitrations I did was for Steelworkers 1958 and a guy named Ron Stewart
was the president there.
Yeah.
And he told me he loved Ray Getz.
I don't remember any clients ever liking saying they liked him, but a number of them.
And I used him a lot for the machinists.
I'm not sure I remember, but I think the machinists had a panel.
Whatever it is, they never hesitated to use it.
But I don't remember anybody being there.
But I don't remember anybody going out of his way.
I'm not sure where Ron Stewart would love him, but that was an interesting place.
That was Chandler's.
They had a bunch of presidents and staff reps and so forth that were unusual.
Who were around here, who were Getz's main competitors as an arbitrator?
There really weren't very many.
In fact, one of them says that KU Connection.
At one point early on, and I'm not sure where it was, it was in the early 70s, I think,
we were sitting around saying how few arbitrators were around here and how bad they were.
We decided to go out and try and get people to become arbitrators.
And two of the people we asked were Mark Bender.
That's when he got started.
And the KU Connection is Eleanor Schrader.
And she didn't want to do it.
Mark did.
After having to talk to him because he was basically a criminal lawyer.
So there weren't any really good arbitrators around here except for Ray.
Oh, that's another interesting thing about his hearings.
I've always had a thing about what to call the decision maker in court.
I don't think I've ever called a judge your honor.
It's just hard to get those words out of my mouth.
So at the first, I called him, I don't know what I called him, but somewhere along the line, I decided to call him professor.
And he would say, call me Ray.
And I couldn't do that.
So I never called him Ray at the hearing.
So he would he would say call him by his first name at the hearing.
Yeah.
What else?
Do you remember what your first impression was of him?
No, it was at that Alice Chalmers hearing, but I didn't know enough to have an impression.
I was kind of getting my feet wet at the time.
It wasn't anything bad that happened.
But I don't remember being elated about the way he handled the thing.
How did he run the hearing?
He ran good hearings. I don't remember that specific hearing how it went.
No, but just generally.
Yeah, no, he did a real good job.
It was orderly and it didn't get out. They didn't get out of hand.
I'm trying to remember who was on the other side with most of his hearings, at least at TWA.
And I can't.
Did you ever have a hearing where somebody got out of hand with Ray?
No, that's what I don't remember.
A lot of it, I think, of that comes from just your essence.
I don't think it's anything he said or did. It was just the way he composed himself and proceeded.
How would you describe his demeanor?
I'm not sure I would.
It was fine.
There weren't any problems with anything he did, as far as I can remember.
Yeah.
He just had, as a professor, he just had this presence.
Yeah, I've heard maybe from you, I've heard from some people who've had him as students,
that he was a much stronger character in class than he was in arbitration.
He wasn't a takeover, take charge, I'm in control here kind of guy.
Like, I have a big impression he was as a teacher. Is that your impression?
Yeah, it was more just that, you know, he was very formal in class, I'd say.
And he never said anything to assert his position or his dominance or anything.
But he just commanded a respect just by his presence.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But I picked up somewhere that he had a little King's Field in it. That's not true.
People thought that, I think.
Well, I think I've heard that from somebody, but I don't remember who.
Yeah.
Delaney had in my thinking. I don't remember who else had him.
Right.
So you said that you're going to do one of these things?
Yeah.
Who?
Mike Delaney.
Oh yeah, no, absolutely.
That'd be interesting to hear what he has to say.
Yeah.
I'll let you know.
You said that most of the hearings you had with Ray were probably in the 80s.
Yeah.
Any reason that they picked up in the 80s?
No, it was just the busiest time of my career or whatever you want to call it, where stuff was going on.
Can you think of any particular management reps that you dealt with in arbitrations involving Ray?
Well, I'm pretty sure it was either Willard. I guess it was Willard.
I'm not positive.
Maybe Willard, maybe Delaney. I can't remember anybody else.
Jim Willard and Mike Delaney at Spencer Fane?
Did you ever talk to any of the management lawyers about Ray?
Yeah, they liked him. They were not hesitant to pick him.
When you get a case and call somebody you trusted, you knew their ringers and they knew your ringers, so you didn't even suggest them.
But if he talked about GETS, there was a pause and he was seriously considered for a moment.
Can you remember a time when anybody said, no, they didn't want GETS?
No.
What was his reputation among other union reps?
I don't have a specific recollection. Back then they had what I think went on after I left private practice.
A little less formal.
The union lawyers from around here, St. Louis and Kansas City primarily, would meet periodically, maybe once a year or so, and they discuss all the arbitrators in the area.
I would take notes and bring them back and read them next to some arbitrators name would say FAIR.
I didn't know if that meant that they were impartial or mediocre.
I think there was pretty much of a consensus that GETS was a good guy.
There were a few other arbitrators out of St. Louis that people on both sides liked a lot.
The guy named Merton Bernstein at Wash U.
And there were a bunch of others, a lot of it depended on the lawyer, but Bernstein was a favorite of mine, as well as GETS.
Did you ever recommend GETS to others?
Yeah, well, you know, people in the firm, and I fear had him, I think.
Did you ask him to do one of these? Is he going to? Yep. That would be interesting too.
I know I recommended him to guys in the firm.
And when we would go to the meetings of St. Louis and Kansas City union lawyers, I speak highly of him.
I'm sure that if it ever came up and somebody wanted to know about the good arbitrator around here, or if they mentioned his name, I said something good about it, but I can't remember anybody specifically.
For some reason, he had some big, big panels. The baseball players was one.
And for some reason, I feel like I maybe I had a part in that through fear, but fear knew him anyways, so both fears knew him, I think.
So I doubt that that's accurate.
But he was on a Plumbers national thing.
It's some kind of Plumbers contract.
And Ford.
And a few of those, and I don't think I ever talked to anybody about those panels, but he had some impressive panels.
So you do remember how he got to be baseball's permanent grievance arbitrator?
Well, through fear, I'm sure.
I'll ask Steve about it. And I may interview Don.
Oh, he hasn't said yes yet.
He'll tell me through Steve.
And when did you become an arbitrator?
1990 January.
And did you talk to Ray Getz about that?
I did.
I think we were in Seattle.
And the hearing was over. I remember we left the hearing room and we were in the hall and I caught him and said, can I talk to you a minute or something like that.
And he seemed a little hesitant.
Because I think he didn't know what I was going to talk to him about, although he should have known that wouldn't have been anything out of line.
Anyway, so I told him I was thinking about leaving and being an arbitrator and he was not at all encouraging.
He basically, I don't think he predicted what was going to happen, but he kind of saw in terms of there aren't as many cases and it's very hard to get started.
Everybody told me it was hard to get started, but I didn't believe him. It was hard to get started.
And then he saw the decline in unions and so forth that were coming. It was coming and he was right on that.
And then
when I wanted to join the Academy, I asked him for a recommendation. That was the last time I talked to him, which was one of your questions.
And I called him on the phone.
He was sick.
And he said he would do it.
And he wasn't particularly hesitant about that.
But I tried to like, you know, next time you're in town, we have that lunch or something like that.
And he says, I don't think I'll be getting out of the house anymore. I think he was in a wheelchair.
At least he couldn't get around.
And I didn't believe it or appreciate what he was telling me or whatever.
But then he died, I don't know, maybe a year later or within a year or thereabouts.
And I thought he was serious.
When did you become an Academy member?
99.
Whenever, whenever.
No, 90.
No, I started in 90 and became a member in about 99, maybe 2000.
It was a year since I became president.
Okay.
Yeah, so Ray died May 2, 2000. So that's probably right.
And then he died.
Yeah.
So he would have written a recommendation maybe a year before that.
And do you remember when, when it was you were in Seattle and talked to him about becoming an arbitrator?
No, I think it was pretty close to when I decided to leave, which was an 89.
Okay.
Was he on a permanent panel for that or?
I should remember that. I think the machine has had a permanent panel. I think they had five.
Yeah.
TWA was represented by
Prashkauer.
What is it?
Murray Gartner.
Herb Prosker.
Prasher.
That's an interesting story.
Okay.
Did you ever serve with Ray in any professional organizations?
I think we were in the, I was then the IRRA.
I don't remember any contacts or anything. I'm almost sure we would have been in at the same time.
But I don't remember anything they did or,
he had been an officer, but I don't remember anything he did and I didn't do anything.
There's not a whole lot of memories there.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, he was the president, according to his file at the library in about 77, I think, of the IRRA chapter.
Did you ever socialize with Ray?
No.
You mentioned that when he would be in a big city like New York, that he liked to go to the museums. Did you ever talk to him about his interest in art or literature?
Oh, he told me about some exhibits he went to that he liked, but I can't remember what they were.
He talked about his son in San Francisco, so I don't know where that fits into this conversation, but he was like a busker out there doing something, magic tricks or something on the street.
He was not really enthusiastic about his career choice.
Do you remember which son it was?
No.
He had, I think, Ray and his wife had, I don't know, five kids maybe, five or six kids. There were quite a few kids. Six, I guess.
And they had four boys.
It was a younger one in San Francisco, but I don't remember which number.
Okay. Did he ever talk to you about any of his other kids?
I think he might have mentioned what some of his other kids were doing.
He told me about the San Francisco son.
I was trying to remember, I went through your little list.
When I wrote, I can't remember, and it makes sense because it's one of the more recent things.
After I wrote his own bit, I think his wife either wrote me a note or called me or something, but I'm not sure.
It seems like she did, but I don't have any specific recollection.
If you have it and want to give a copy, I would include it with the stuff I give to the library.
If she wrote a note?
It seems to me she may have written a note, but I don't know where it is if I haven't.
Okay.
Did you ever meet her?
No.
So when was the last time you actually saw Ray?
Maybe at that thing in Seattle where I told him I was going to become an arbiter.
So he did write you the recommendation.
He was able to do that for your National Academy membership.
Did he talk to you about his illness at all?
Well, just generally, it seems to me, I don't even know what it was, but he had trouble walking or ambulating or whatever.
He couldn't get around.
It seems to me maybe before the last conversation where I suggested we have lunch, he had told me before, but I can't remember when or in what context that he wasn't able to travel.
Do you know when he stopped arbitrating?
No.
I think relatively. He died in 90?
2000.
I would guess 97, 98. It's just a guess.
Was he ever an arbitrator on a National Steelworkers panel?
No, but I have a vague recollection that I recommended him for something to the Steelworkers on a high level, but I don't remember what it was.
Do you have any idea how he became the permanent umpire for Ford Motor Company and the UAW?
Not anything, no.
Okay. Is there anything else you can think of that you want to tell everyone for posterity about Raymond Getz?
No, but I'd like to say a few words about myself.
Well, that'll be a different interview. Okay, let me stop the recording here.
I'm going to figure out how to stop the recording.