Okay, this is the sixth interview for the Raymond Getz Oral History Project, and it
is February 18th, and we are starting our interview.
Can you tell us who you are, please?
My name is Peter L. Peterson.
I go by Pete.
Back then in law school, most of my classmates would probably refer to me as Larry, so I've
got a dual name that I should get out there so that people can connect with us.
And when did you graduate from KU's law school?
1971.
And tell us just a little bit about your practice today and kind of your career, because you've
got an interesting story about labor law.
Yes, I had, as a third year law student, I had taken about every course professor gets
taught, at least four, if not a senior seminar as well.
Really got along fast, got along well with him, respected him a lot, and great, great
experience.
He was largely responsible for my graduating with the intent of practicing labor law full
time the rest of my career.
In fact, that's what Latham and Watkins in Los Angeles, California hired me to do.
I clerked out there between my second, third year.
And it was plain they needed somebody in that arena.
Getz was encouraging to me.
And so that's I hired on with that goal in mind.
Well, that firm is uniquely organized nationwide.
I don't know of any other that is organized this way.
Their labor law department and their estate and planning trust law departments were one
in the same, merged, same people doing the same stuff.
So I got a heavy dose of both disciplines for two years in LA.
And then I get a call out of the blue from a firm in Salina where I am now.
They wanted me to come back to Kansas.
I won't bore you with the story of my connection with them, but they knew of me and they reached
out to me.
One thing led to another.
I came back to Kansas because they wanted me to practice estate planning and trust law,
which I had gotten a good dose of in LA.
And that's where I began my career.
The really bizarre thing is the day I walked into this firm in Salina, which was the day
after Labor Day in 1973, the senior partner was about to ship out a major labor law case
because no one in the three man firm at that time could handle it.
And I held up my hand and said, hey, I can do that.
And luckily, for whatever reason, the senior partner let me do that.
So I handled the labor law case with an organizational campaign against a local manufacturing client
of our firm, won the case, kept the union out.
That led to a whole bunch of other labor law involvements.
So even though my primary specialty for the last 50 years has been trust in estate law,
I've always had this sub specialty in labor law and our firm still does some of that work
to this day continuously for 50 years, all due largely to Professor Getz's influence
on me from the get go.
OK, that's a great story.
Had you ever met Ray Getz before you saw him the first time in class?
Never no.
Which classes did you take from Ray Getz?
Labor law one and two and advanced contract negotiations and labor law as the as in the
second and third year.
But the most the most impressionable on me experience was contract law one contracts
as a first year, first semester law student.
OK, before you got into that first contracts class, had you heard anything about Professor
Getz?
I had heard very little.
I had heard that he was good and that he was stern.
And I have I have a little story on that.
OK, go ahead.
Professor Getz had a different way of getting the class involved.
Everyone had an assigned seat.
He had a seating chart.
He knew where everyone sat.
The little chart said who was sitting in that seat.
He expected you to be in that seat and he expected you to be there every day in that
seat and he would go around the room with his Socratic dialogue method in order around
the room row by row.
Didn't skip around, didn't jump around.
You could see when your number was coming up.
You could see probably two, three sessions ahead of time where you were going to be because
you'd always keep calling around three to four people a day.
So you could tell when your number was coming up.
And of course, for me, I always wanted to gear up those couple of days ahead of time,
make sure I was up to snuff.
Lord forbid the guy who would cut class.
I say guy back then in dark ages and set in the 70s.
I think we had three females in our class of 110.
So this is pretty much an all male class.
Pity the guy who would cut class because Professor Getz would come back on him the next time
he showed up and it was merciless.
It was almost cruel and unusual punishment.
He would grill that guy and put him through the paces and the guy was darned if he didn't.
Was he going to come back the next time?
He darn better should or it'll be worse.
But Getz was renowned for that.
You cut class at your own risk.
Right.
Can you just describe his classes?
You sort of did, but just kind of generally describe his Socratic method and the way he
operated his classes, if you would.
Well, we have advanced reading assignments.
It was case law method.
We'd read several cases and he was the one that introduced us all to the notion of what
the holding was and what the dicta was and the difference.
He typically asked for a synopsis of the case and the holding from a particular student
and then he'd start to grill him on the case and the arguments for and against and illicit
opinions and thoughts from the person.
The person was literally on the gridiron.
He was being grilled, especially if he'd cut class, as I said earlier, mercilessly by Professor
Getz.
He was thorough, insightful, incisive, and it was quite an experience.
What was Professor Getz's demeanor like in class?
Not with the unprepared or the skipper, but just generally.
He had an air of professionality.
It was no questions asked.
He knew the story.
He knew what he was talking about.
He had an aura of authority about him and oh, he'd smile and crack a joke once in a while,
but it was all business and it brought you to attention.
You needed to be on your best.
You needed to be at your best and you could instinctively tell that.
He expected it and we respected him enough to respect that and his classes came prepared,
by and large.
We were ready for him.
How about, did you ever have a student in one of your classes with Professor Getz who
didn't skip but came up either unprepared or not very well prepared?
Oh, yes.
How do you treat those people?
You mean the ones that were not prepared?
Correct.
It wasn't discourteous.
Let's say it was respectfully disdainful.
That's about the best way I could put it.
I think he was disappointed in them that they would not respect him enough to come prepared
and that came through.
Did you and your fellow students ever discuss Professor Getz's teaching style outside of
class?
We didn't parse it or slice and dice it.
It was, man, we got to come prepared and don't slack.
I mean, it was toe the mark, do the work.
There was just a collective acknowledgement that you didn't dare cut and you didn't dare
come unprepared.
I mean, that was it.
That's all you needed to say.
So Professor Getz acknowledged the contribution that you and three of your other 3Ls made
to his classic 1971 law review article entitled Secondary Boycotts in the LMRA, A Path Through
the Swamp.
Can you tell me about that experience?
Yes, we knew that Professor Getz had taught elsewhere.
We knew that he had published elsewhere.
I'm talking about those of us on the law review.
I went on the law review my second year and there was this collective wish early on that
wouldn't it be great if Professor Getz would write for the KU Law Review?
And there were stories abounding that he had been asked but he wouldn't ever do it or declined
for this that or the other reason and it was this insurmountable mountain.
So we didn't know why.
Was he too busy?
Did he think the KU Law School or the KU Law Review was not worthy of his effort?
That didn't make sense because he had come to teach there so we couldn't figure it out.
So I was chosen to be editor in chief my third year and I approached him early on and had
a conversation and told him it would really be a wonderful thing if he would buckle down
and write an article.
And he said, well, I've been thinking about a secondary boycott article but it's too daunting
of a task.
I don't have time to do the research, the site checking and all that.
One way or the other, I can't remember how exactly I came about but whether I went back
first and elicited some help or I may have just offered, I said, we'll help you write
it.
He said, really?
And I said, yeah.
That means site checking and grunt work, nights and after class.
And it actually got to the point we actually helped him a little bit with the writing of
the article itself.
But the bulk of it was grunt work and the result was quite something.
That article got him and the KU Law Review a lot of acclaim from what I understand.
But it was just pushing him gently enough to get him to do it knowing that he wouldn't
have to bear the burden totally himself.
Is there a story about the article's title, the swamp part?
I think Stan and I have a different recollection of that.
I don't recall quibbling with him about that.
I think he came up with it as best my recall.
I thought it was a cool title.
I'm really not quite sure where the title came from.
I think it was from Professor Goetz.
Just overall, as you sit here today, what did you think of Professor Goetz as a teacher?
Well, he was top notch and we were blessed at that time at the law school to have two
or three in that cadre.
Martin Dickinson, of course, was awesome.
The commercial law instructor, and I'm Markley Clark, was outstanding.
All of them had published.
All of them were outstanding in their field and recognized as such.
I was, as was Stan and Bill Sampson and Ron Kimsey, all of us were blessed to come through
a time when we had a wonderful collection of really great professors, of which Goetz
was one, obviously.
Did Professor Goetz ever invite you over to his home?
I don't recall that he did.
I think Bill Sampson got that favor bestowed on him.
I don't recall being in his home, no.
Did you ever visit with Professor Goetz on an informal basis while you were in law school?
Yes, particularly in my third year when he was encouraging me to practice in that arena.
I talked with him about locales and firms.
Of course, Latham and Watkins came up.
He knew I had clerked there and I had liked what I'd seen out there.
He was very encouraging of me to pursue that, which I eventually did.
Where did those discussions take place?
In his office.
How often did you talk to him about those issues?
Oh gosh, off and on.
I don't have a number in mind, but several times, both my second year and third year.
After you went out to LA to practice at Latham, did you speak to Professor Goetz while you were out there?
Not while I was out there.
I was back once and saw him briefly, but I did not have a lot of communication with him after that.
No.
Okay.
Did you ever know him as an arbitrator?
I didn't cross paths with him formally, but I knew he was a good one.
I could tell that obviously from the arbitration classwork that I had with him at law school.
I did not run across him in that arena.
Do you mean professionally?
Yeah.
No, I did not ever run across him when he had his arbitrator hat on.
No.
Were you ever back at the law school at any events and saw him at the event?
You mean after I graduated?
Correct.
I believe just I'm recalling that one time, but no others.
Okay.
And I don't have a lot of specific recollection about that.
I think it was kind of a reunion type event.
I happened to be back in Kansas for a brief period of time, so I was able to make it.
Did you ever run into Professor Goetz?
He served in a number of professional organizational capacities with the ABA.
He was also on the Public Employees Retirement Board here in Kansas.
Did you ever run into him in any of those capacities?
No, I did not.
Did you ever socialize with Ray Goetz and his family?
No, as I said, I think a couple of my classmates had the good fortune of being able to do that
for whatever reason.
There were some law school events, social events, but there were a lot of people there mingling,
but I don't have a specific recollection ever of being in his home.
Did you ever talk about in your meetings when Professor Goetz was encouraging you to
practice labor law or any other time, did you ever talk to him about his interest in art or
literature?
I don't recall.
Do you remember the last time you saw Ray Goetz?
That would have been probably, I'm going to guess,
when I came back to Kansas in 73, I was at the law school a couple of times after that while he
was still there.
I think I saw him passing maybe once, possibly twice, probably just once, and that would have
been the mid 70s.
And that's the best of my recollection.
You got to remember that's close to 50 years ago.
I remember.
Do you remember when you learned that he had died?
No, well, I don't remember how or where I was, but I did learn of his passing and
just as I was with Martin Dickinson, sad events.
Right.
Do you have any other last memories that you want to share with everyone about your
life?
Well, I think we've pretty well covered the waterfront.
Okay, great.
I'm going to stop the recording.
Okay.