This is the ninth interview in the Raymond Getz Oral History Project.
Please tell us who you are.
My name is William Bevin III.
I go by Bill.
And tell us a little bit about your practice.
I have been a traditional labor lawyer primarily since I entered, since I began working at the National Labor Relations Board in 1971 after active duty military service.
I, my practice, I spent approximately 11 years with the NLRB starting in Kansas City as a trial attorney in February of 1971.
In 1974, I was detailed for approximately four months to the office of the General Counsel of the National Labor Relations Board Division of Advice in Washington, D.C.
I returned to Kansas City that year and in 1976, I was transferred to the Pittsburgh Regional Office of the NLRB as a supervisory attorney.
In 1978, I was promoted to deputy regional attorney with substantial responsibility over a number of regional office functions, including managing the trial calendar, supervising all GS-14 trial specialists, writing or being responsible for writing all our case decisions and responsible for all injunction or specialization.
Special litigation that our office pursued.
In January of 1982, I entered private practice with at that time the oldest firm in Pittsburgh, Reed Smith, Sean McClay, a large all purpose firm that had made a national reputation in the practice of labor law, particularly for their representation.
Of the steel industry, which was for all practical purposes, mostly headquartered in Pittsburgh. I remained there for 35 years, rising to equity partner retiring as a senior counsel.
After a brief period of retirement, I
Decided to work part time for a small firm founded by former Reed Smith lawyers, where I still can continue to do traditional labor law primarily during my years of practice at Reed Smith. I not only did traditional labor law, but I also practiced employment law.
And I also managed the firm's immigration practice when the immigration reform and control act became law in 1986 and employers for the first time had to verify the eligibility of their employees to work.
In the traditional labor area, I did a great number of picketing cases, strike cases, and lots and lots of labor arbitrations for such companies as United Parcel, various steel companies, Verizon, International Paper, and the
That was my primary focus.
And you went to KU's law school when?
I did. I was there from 1967. I started in the fall of 67 and graduated in early June of
1970. I was commissioned the next day as a second lieutenant in the US Army. I studied for the bar and we took the bar at the end of June.
My wife and I prepared to
enter for me to enter active military service on my first wedding anniversary.
And you ever met Ray Getz before you saw him first time in class?
No, I had never met him, but I had certainly heard about him.
I had never met him, but I had certainly heard a lot about him, primarily because Dean Logan was trying to convince me that I should come to KU.
I had been accepted at the University of Texas, where my labor relations and labor economics professor thought I should go because I could study with Jerry Williams, who was a well-known professor of labor law then and later served on the Fifth Circuit.
And my parents who wanted me to go to Duke Law, where
I have the distinguished, I guess,
the distinguished fact that in my family, I'm the only one of my siblings and my parents that didn't go to Duke in some fashion. So I was waitlisted there.
And so I was trying to make a decision, ultimately based on the glowing recommendations from Dean Logan that I should study with Ray Getz.
So do you remember what Judge Logan said to you about Ray Getz?
Well, he said that, well, you know, he said, I might not have been able to
compete on this issue a year or so ago, but we brought this guy in to teach, who wanted to teach on a one-year basis.
And, you know, we really liked him. He was a partner in one of the, at that time, the largest labor farm in Chicago, CIFAR's Seifershaw, Fairweather, and Geraldson, and highly regarded. And he was partner there.
And Ray had always been interested in teaching.
I think I've already authored various law review or other articles and
whatever after the first year, the university liked him.
And that was, you know, that was the, I guess that was the beginning of his long relationship with the, with the law school there. So,
and of course, I met him, my, I guess it would have been my
fourth day in law school, because he taught me contracts in our section. I was in that class with Judge Lundstrom and our class met 830 to 930 Thursday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday. You tell kids today that he went Thursday, Friday, you went on Saturday.
I said, yeah. And my first year in law school, I had three classes every Saturday, every semester. And even my second year, I had Saturday classes.
So tell me about contracts with Ray Goetz.
Well, there were two, there were two professors of contracts. And Ray was, there was no question that Ray was the much harder professor. And,
but you knew that if you wanted to learn and be challenged, he, you know, I didn't really have a choice. I just ended up in his section, it was, he was the one who was the most difficult to learn from.
You know, it wasn't because, yes, I wanted to take labor law from him, but I had,
I mean, I, you know, it was a purely arbitrary decision as to what section you were in. And you, of course, you stayed with
those guys and the few gals we had.
You stayed with them your entire first year. They were, you know, they were your section mates. So the class was about 140 or 150. We had some people who'd started earlier.
I mean, you have to go back to the time we were living in, which kids today, again, have no understanding or appreciation for, that every one of us, for the most part, who had graduated from college in 67, we had only a one year deferment
from the draft. And at the end of that year, if you didn't have an option, you were going to be drafted. If you flunked out of the law school, and believe me, there were people who did. And some of that were, some of those were people in my section who failed contracts.
And it was a very, you know,
I guess I would say the war was with you all the time. It was just a matter of when it was going to catch up with you. We had guys in the class, of course, who had gone and gotten out of school in 64 or 65 and served at the time of the military. And in the back, we had older guys who had been in the military.
Had been vets, but had been back working at, you know, and decided to make a career change.
But for those of us fresh out of college, unless you'd been in ROTC as an undergrad,
you had very few options. I was fortunate, I had gone to K-State, and that was a land grant school and land grant schools, you were required to take ROTC, didn't you? You had to take the first two years. I had that under my belt.
And I was able ultimately to matriculate into the upper. And that was the only way I was ever able to finish law school. And there were some of my classmates that weren't as lucky.
What was your first impression of Professor Goetz?
A little scary, maybe. I mean, a no-nonsense guy, but not a just very, very straightforward, very, he taught by the Socratic method. And of course, most of us didn't know what the Socratic method was, but we quickly learned about it.
We quickly learned what it was. But he was, you know, he had a method, he would give you a couple days to sort out the seating. And then that was the seating chart. And that was where, that's how he learned your name.
And he, and you know, there was no, he didn't skip around the room. He went right down the row. So you could pretty much know when you were going to be up or when you were not. And he emphasized the need to read the cases and brief the cases.
And it was a lot of work in this class. But I think most of the students were challenged by him and enjoyed the class. I mean, it was hard, there was no question. And he was a strong believer in the restatement.
And he liked Corbin. So, you know, you could have a choice on, you know, different authors on contracts, but I think most of us bought the one volume Corbin because Ray liked Corbin. And of course, you had to get the restatement. There was just no way, if you didn't get the restatement, there was no way you were going to pass that class.
What was his classroom demeanor like?
Oh, always very professional, always wore a coat and tie, always
just and very, very even keeled. And in the upper, when you got into like labor law, the upper in his area, he, you never, whatever his bias was, he didn't show it. And he didn't want you to show it either. He would rail against what he called, what are you, a bunch of management tools?
He felt the only way you had to learn, the only way you would ever really be successful in an organized environment was you had to understand what the other guy's needs were, what were the arguments that were important to the union, what were the ones that were important to the company.
And it was always evaluated and frequently his tests were always the same, always the same.
And I used those when I became an adjunct professor myself, I used the same method, although I always gave my kids a bonus question. And I could still never understand why they wouldn't follow my instructions. I would say, you know, if it were me, I'd go and do the bonus question first, because it's worth 25 points, the same as one whole class.
And I would ask the question if you, if you screw it up, and it'd be pretty hard not to get them right unless you just didn't pay any attention.
And yet I still had people I'd get the exam book and they hadn't done it.
How did Ray treat his students?
Oh, very, very professional.
I never heard him raise his voice in anger or frustration with a student.
And yet he was a very keen observer of the dynamics in a class.
And since this was particularly true in contracts, because he was with us the whole year and he got to know us. He, you know, he graded our, he, he graded the finals, he didn't know us but he knew us by our different personalities.
We had, we had a guy in our class who was the number one man in the class after the first semester.
And this individual who I will not name was always, always had his hand up and he was a, he was a really smart, smart individual.
And I'm, I'm sure he went on to become a very successful lawyer.
But he had this, he would sometimes to sort of you know to somewhat patronizing way of saying, well, I think what Mr. Bevin really means is this.
And this is the, you know, so you know Ray never said anything. He just, but he didn't miss a beat.
One Saturday in the second semester.
It was a Saturday morning in March.
And this guy was just turning the barrel, you know, he didn't start out with him but about midway through class, you know, his name and I said, I happen to sit next to him.
And Ray called on him.
And he said, Professor Goetz, I'm not prepared.
And Goetz let out this huge belly laugh.
And then he said, Well, you know, Mr. X, if you want to be number one, you got to be number one all the time.
And that was the last we heard of him when one of his classmates was struggling.
He just, at least in that class he did put his head down and, you know, and I think Ray had just been waiting for that moment.
And then of course, I'm sitting right next to him and said, So Mr. Bevin, can you help Mr. X?
And of course I happened to have been prepared because I was a single guy. I didn't have anything to do on Friday nights but study.
My, my, my future wife was a year behind me in college.
So she was, she was still at K-State and so my, I didn't have much social life in law school.
And this individual was married and some of the married students tended on a party on Friday night.
Did you and your fellow students discuss Professor Goetz's teaching style?
I'm sure we did. I don't, I don't have any recollections of any particular conversations.
I think, I think there were those of us who, you know, just, I mean, all professors to some extent use the Socratic method, but he was just really superb at it.
And I don't, now I don't, I don't know, Doug, if you were there when Professor Scott was or whether he had retired by then.
Scott was a quite a character. He was a straight Harvard undergrad, Harvard Law, been a Navy pilot, then later an instructor at Olathe during World War II.
That's how he met Mrs. Scott. She was a Kansan. And he stayed there and he taught at the law school.
And he, he kind of railed at the Socratic method.
He was always famous and when you know I had Scott, you know, and everyone knew if you took Scott, you weren't, you weren't guaranteed anything with him.
But he would say, now I know the Dean here thinks I should teach by the Socratic method.
Well, that's fine if, if I were Socrates, but I'm not Socrates and my students sure as hell aren't the caliber of his.
So if you don't mind, I'll teach my way and my lecture and so that was the way he taught.
What did he teach?
He taught, he taught property.
Although I had the Dean Logan the year we had property in the first year. He taught primarily in the areas of wills and trust and future interests, and he was also the guy who taught oil and gas.
There were so many funny stories about it. And of course grading was if you wanted to, someone said if you wanted to assure yourself that you would get straight A's, you would never take Scott for anything.
What was your experience with Ray gets his Socratic method. What do you think of that.
Well, I'll tell you what I thought about it I guess.
I was probably, you know, uncomfortable at first but I came to think it was the right way to do things was the right way to teach people to think as lawyers.
I became an adjunct at the University of Pittsburgh in 1988 and taught labor law and labor arbitration courses for 10 years I always use this Socratic method, and I was in a maybe one other professor was doing it still then.
But I was determined that I would try to emulate the professor I most admired in that now Dean Logan also use the Socratic method and was an excellent teacher little tougher on students, you know personally in the class.
And you have to remember.
At that time, the classes were predominantly made.
And the sort of male on male environment I mean teachers didn't. Some teachers, they didn't, you know, they didn't spare
a certain amount of, you know, ridicule, which you just took as you know that was just part of the way it was.
And it wasn't.
Nobody would have dared gone home. I'm going to call my mom and complain, or go to the dean and say, this man said something to me I'm really upset.
You just, you wouldn't do that.
You know, and I, but I only had been Logan the one year, because the next year was 68 he ran for the Senate. And when he lost, he didn't come back to the school he went on to private practice and then later was of course pointed to the 10th circuit.
Did, did Professor gets invite your section over to his home. And he did. He did. And he was in that sense he was like no other professor did that, but he did that for everyone in contracts section.
Did he do it in small groups or yes and at least when I was there, it was in small groups he had to divide the class over so many evenings but yes it was usually one group a week as I recall, and, and it was a, he lived in a very large old house.
I don't know I could remember I can see that I can see the house now because I was once in the house as an as a third year law student.
And I was asked if Ray I think asked Barney, if he and his wife was sort of house it for he was taking his wife and family on a trip.
And Barney invite, I worked for him I was my last year in law school I was ahead of all the, all the library assistance I made all the schedules out I also had to cover when they didn't show up.
Anyway Barney and his wife Bridget divided my wife and I over. And of course, you know, we're looking at this place was, you know, the art there was phenomenal but he explained how he got interested in, in, in art and was fascinating and he did have a
number of these original four holes which of course, wouldn't you know here I am in Pittsburgh the home of Andy Warhol, and we have the Andy Warhol museum here.
What.
How long did the when Professor gets invited you over how long did that interaction last
an hour and a half, maybe I don't really, I don't have, I don't remember the exact time Doug but I would say an hour and at least an hour and a half I mean there was no, you didn't have a sense that you were being rushed and I think because he kept the group relatively
small.
He could, he could take time with each of you.
You know to to get to know you I mean in that sense outside of class. Do you remember your conversation with him at that time.
No, not especially I mean he was.
He was
I just remember that both he and his wife were very gracious. I know other faculty, they wouldn't necessarily invite you to their homes now, Charlie old father always had a big function.
I think the year out at his farm south of south on 59 there, south of town.
I don't think I might have gone to that once I think maybe after I was married, but you know I but I don't recall that other faculty did it now. That doesn't mean they didn't you know it was part of the luck of who you had.
What did you have snacks and drinks or what. Yeah, no, he served. My recollection is there were, it was like hors d'oeuvres and served a pretty sure he served beer.
Very low.
Very like beer.
I never, I don't know that he didn't ever have a cocktail but I never saw him.
Do you remember what kind of very like.
He liked to buy gets beer.
And I think it was because it was cheap.
He used to be at that they had six kids so they had this milking machine in the kitchen. I remember the first time I saw it I thought I was looking at it and then, you know, but his wife worked too I mean, and this was, you know, not not there weren't that many.
Working spouses back then and you know they had that everything had to sort of by suspect moving on assembly line. You know it's kind of reminds you of like going through the line in the dormitory where you get to the end and there's the milk machine you know and you take your glass and move on.
So, overall, what did you think of Ray gets as a teacher.
Superb.
A particular reason.
I just
think that he was being a really hard working.
Brilliant guy former Navy pilot, you know he was in World War Two veteran.
I don't know I just everything.
I just when I the lessons that he imparted to me and I was fortunate I studied with them every year.
Law one, the labor law to my senior that time every senior had to do a senior thesis that could be also a law review comment or two notes.
But
I just, I just said, he was the, he was the person who most influenced.
I think in terms of how I practice law, and what it was important to me and you kind of men he once told me that objectivity is the most important thing you can have is a labor.
You can also buy up but you need to have objectivity, and to be able to advise a client now in the environment we've increasingly lived with clients, business clients especially.
They don't hear that.
How can I get around this I can do that, you know, and I often think that the business schools.
They just didn't teach ethics they didn't teach things like you talk.
He Oh, by the way, he also taught professional.
He also I think my senior year he also, there was a one hour course, I, I'm trying to think Doug what they called it but it was your, essentially your professional development course ethics.
And again, he just, I mean I think just pretty much I mean I was, you know, I want to be a labor lawyer, when I entered law school and when I came out, that's what I wanted to do.
He. At that time I was kind of leaning towards practicing on the union side.
But I wanted to start with my real goal was to start at the board if I could course that was about at that time if you had a military obligation like I did.
Nobody interviewed you then we'll talk to you.
Right.
So did you talk to Professor gets about your career interests and did he provide any advice to you.
He did. Yeah, he did. He told me.
And he never would have said why you do better on the management side he never said that he was.
Like I said he he he was all about you learning both sides of the coin service.
And he was always helpful to me when I, when I had to make the difficult, you know he brought. I was so flattered when he invited me to his class to teach an entire section on 10 L and 10 J injunctions.
You know now here I am up and out I've been practicing with the Labor Board maybe a year and a half or two and invites me to teach the class.
And he said you know I said, I'd like to hear from the people who actually do this, you know I can teach it but I thought it would be really great and you're going to introduce me as one of his former students that had wanted to become a labor lawyer.
And you know when I when I had to make the difficult decision to leave the board and enter private practice and I was dealing with a big Chicago firm.
He spoke very highly of Reed Smith he said oh he said wonderful firm he said I remember going there for meetings during the steel industry negotiations and so you know and when I had issues when I started to teach I I called him and I said I'm going to try to do this.
And I'm going to try to my to do my best to do it the way you did I don't say that I can but you know with it and he was I think.
He was never a fusive but I think in a way he was he was pleased in a sense that one of his students wanted to teach and wanted to teach in the subject area that had been important to him.
How many times did you teach the injunction stuff in his class.
Once or twice.
And how often did you talk to him after you started to practice and you know made changes in your career or taught. How often did you speak to him.
Well, once I moved from Kansas City.
Not very often but I did.
I did. I did.
To the two things that I really wanted that when I wanted to talk to him was about when when I was going into private practice I must have talked to him for
Half hour or 45 minutes.
When I chose to go into teaching. I mean, you know, not to go into teaching but I was asked by the dean of the law school to
Teach because they had not the Herb Sherman was to have decided to retire. I think suddenly for health reasons and so they kind of were in a lurch and I had worked with.
He was then Dean. He was then Martin or the birdie later became Dean of the law school provost and then Chancellor of the University but Mark was contemporary of my we did work.
He represented the employees and the loss the faculty of the law school during the first faculty bargaining case of the university and I and a guy named Scott Zimmerman and my farm were
We're representing the university in this long, long tremendously we must have had a 5000 page transcript.
And of course yours truly had to write the brief partner senior partner wasn't going to be fooling with that.
University of Pittsburgh. Yeah, it was back then was the first one that began back in 82 or 83 I just hadn't been at the firm.
I was doing a lot of work for the two or three most senior guys in the department.
Did you ever talk to Professor gets about his military service.
Yeah, you know, when I think he knew about my situation and probably judge long streams and several others in his class.
And I remember talking to him I suppose I knew it's sort of what he did.
Did you when you were still in Kansas City. Did you ever go to any of the old Kansas City chapter of the IRA meetings.
No, I don't.
I don't think the board people were involved we kind of.
And that the way things were done in Kansas City were when you were at the board was seeing very different than they were here.
But, no, I was not involved in the entire time I was in Kansas City I was with the board.
Did you ever socialize with Professor gets in his family.
No, other than, no, no.
And, and I always.
I always called him Professor gets until one time he said I think you can call me right.
Right.
So, you recently, I mean, that was in that was.
In some ways that was sort of inbred because my father was.
He was a very distinguished psychologist but he was a professor then he was later, a dean and a provost and.
And I knew that he never the man who he took his doctor with he, or the man who was the most influential as he always called the doctor, you know, as if even I thought he took it to extremes but I sort of follow the same thing.
You would never, you would never have ever said, as a student to Ray gets so Ray, what do you know.
You wouldn't have, and you've never said that to Dean Logan, or, or Bill Kelly, I mean you just, you know, to me.
And I and I once told a student who attempted to call me by my first name I said, you may call me Mr Bevin or Professor Bevin, but you do not call me by my first name.
I suppose I'm now totally out of sync with the rest of the world.
I'm not sure that.
So you recently created the Raymond guests Labor and Employment Law Support Fund.
And when did you decide to do that.
Well, I had wanted to do something for some time, and I finally just said you know I got to do this.
You know, life, I'm getting older and I want to make sure that I get this done.
I wanted to do something tangible to honor him for what I think he did for me as a, you know, I mean, I.
There have been maybe four men in my life, my father,
senior partner Reed Smith, Professor gets and another individual who have really shaped so much of who I am and what I became.
And I have to say, if there was one professor and don't get me wrong, there are other professors at KU that I liked and admired but for me he was the model of what I wanted to be and what I always tried to do.
And I don't know how successful I've been, but I have a number of friends who are union side lawyers who have built relationships over the years.
I always wanted to be that lawyer that when I gave you when I told you it was X, it was X.
You could take my word you could take my handshake you didn't have to confirm that in writing and there were other folks that wasn't necessarily true.
You know, and I.
From my father I learned.
The importance of.
It was a very early lesson.
And I, and I recall, and I recalled this at his funeral.
I remember sitting up there in the Duke Chapel in front of all these Duke administrators and former graduate students and colleagues of his.
I remember saying that my, the first, the first job I had you know besides being the neighborhood guy who does all the lawns.
I went to work on a big corporate farm about six miles seven miles east of Manhattan.
And my very first day I was there 13 hours clearing these enormous stumps out of the ground so they could get play in another field of alfalfa.
And of course I'd never done this and I have to ride on this tractor with my feet on the axle and holding, you know my hands behind me holding on to the fender. While this crazy guy who I later learned was a broad buster on the winning circuit.
When we raced through the field.
And I remember they dropped me off in town was a little bit before, you know, eight o'clock.
I was filthy I mean I was covered you know my white t shirt was totally brown. I was just, and I was exhausted and I knew I had a mile or so to walk home.
And so I thought well you know I bet my dad's gone up to his office or his laboratory. So I'll call home and see if my mom will come and get me.
So I went to the pay phone there by the public library and I called home.
And lo and behold guess who answers.
Dad.
And he said, I said dad is mom there.
Yeah, she is but she's busy with your youngest brother. What can I do.
And they said I was just called to see maybe if she could give me a ride it's been a long day.
And I expected to him to say well so what walk home you know like you're not.
And he said, where are you. My son down at the public library said, he said, give me a, you know, give me five 10 minutes I'll be down and get you so I'm like thinking, this can't be right.
He made us walk in the rain and the snow the school you know I always had those stories when the kids would say oh yeah you had to walk I said yeah I did.
I remember one of my sons asked my mother he said, he said Nana it was granddad really as tough as dad said and she looked right at him to every bit.
So anyway my dad comes and picks me up.
And he could see I'm filthy and he didn't say anything you know I'm getting in his, his Buick there and he says, So what'd you learn today.
And I said, Oh, of course I recounted all the different tasks that I had done.
So yeah so what you what you learn.
I said dad I just went over all these things with you said, I want to know what did you really learn today and I'm at this point I'm just like, I'm totally I don't understand where the man is going or what I'm supposed to have learned from all of this.
I'm just sorry I don't know what you want from me and he said, he said son, I want you to learn this.
That is extremely hard to make a living with your back.
And I hope, at the same time, you will always respect those who do.
And they didn't say anymore and I, I've carried that with me most of my life.
That's great. What, what, what's the plan for how your Raymond gets Labor and Employment Law support fund will be used.
I think it's going to be primarily used to support the continue to support the teaching of Labor and Employment Law because increasingly, I think they have to rely on adjuncts, as opposed to full time faculty in my day.
Right.
And the.
I mean I don't know about you Doug but I think it's.
I am shocked at the number.
There, there are just not.
I mean I readily admit I'm a dinosaur and, but there's a number of people who, who are really knowledgeable about the NLRA and all its interfaces are feeling far between.
And I will tell you this, and some never say this.
But to me there is a very distinct difference between employment lawyers and traditional labor lawyers.
And we have a totally different way of proceeding.
And most of us do not proceed on a scorched earth.
You know winner take all, because if you do that, then you destroy the relationship between the company.
I mean I've had to, don't get me wrong I've had, I've been involved in some major strikes where I didn't think they had to occur, but they did, and they were long, and they were painful, and people suffered.
When did you learn that Ray gets had died, if you recall.
I don't.
I don't recall.
I remember maybe reading about it in the KU laws or, but
you remember how it made you feel.
I think loss, loss of a possible, you know, if I wouldn't, I hadn't talked to him in quite some time but I think loss, loss for the school, loss for the students that came after me or who would, who would, you know, I just think he was one of a kind.
I don't know if you ever saw this.
There was a publication out that came out in the 80s.
It was a was about the time there was another thing called the preppy handbook, it was quite fashionable. But there was, it was called the lawyers handbook was written by somebody in
I think it was a book that was written by a man named in DC. But the thing that was so striking was that they were talking about people who were masters of the Socratic method.
And they named like three people and one was Ray Gatz. And I said, well, they got one thing right.
I was in a company with Ben O. Schmidt at Yale and I can't remember who the third one was.
And that made, and it just made me sort of glow, you know, because I said, yeah, I'm a product of that.
Right. I think I'm the better because of that.
Yeah, the, so, are there any other memories of Ray Gatz that you can think of you want to share?
He was like clockwork on certain things. He always came into the library at a certain time in the afternoon, and he would get the Wall Street Journal, and I think he would first check his investments, and then he would scan, you know, he would scan the editorial page or certain things.
And then he would, you know, go back. He would always, he was frequently, you know, when I was working the night shifts at the library, he was frequently there and you'd see the light on in this office and then you'd hear the light go off just about, you know, five minutes before 10 o'clock.
We used to close the library at 10 and then later extended the hours.
But, yeah, I mean, who was that he was just like clockwork. I mean, he used to drive this.
I remember right they had a, what they used to call those Volkswagen buses I can't remember, but he also he drove a Beetle, you know, and it was just, he wasn't.
In many ways he was a preacher of habit.
And he was always, he was always dressed very traditional or a white or blue button down, and usually, usually a striped tie or maybe a full art.
I mean, he was just, you know, he was, he was Midwestern professional.
Okay.
By the way, he never he was always willing to talk to students after class, and he usually, there were usually plenty of people who want to go out and talk to him about something he'd said in the class or something.
And if you wanted to see him.
He was always, you know, make an appointment is always generous with his time.
Okay.
He was not.
And he was, he was very tough on grading so
that's just, that was him.