INTERVIEW W ITH C ORA D OWNS

I n t er v i e w e d by Mrs. P hy l l i s Lewin

Oral H i s t o r y P r o je c t
o f The K.U. R e t i r e e s ' Club
September, 1984

CORA M . DOWNS
A . B. , Kansas, 1915
A.M., Kansas, 1920
P h . D . , Kansas, 1924

S e r v ic e s a t The U n i v e r s i t y of Kansas
I n s t r u c t o r i n B ac t e r i ol o g y , 1917-21
A s s i st a n t P r o f e s s o r of B a c t er i o l o gy , 1921-25
A s so c i at e P r o f e ss o r of B a c t e r i o l o g y , 1925-35
P r o f e ss o r of B a c t e r i ol o g y , 1935-52
Summerfield P r o f e s s o r o f B a c t e r i ol o g y , 1962-63
P r o f e ss o r E m e r i t a , 1963

INTERVIEW W ITH C ORA D OWNS

Q.

Why d o n ' t we s t a r t w it h your c h i l d h oo d .

T e ll me a s much a s

you remember about your c h i l d h o o d and t h e t h i n g s t h a t s t a n d o u t i n your
mind when you t h i n k about i t .
A.- W e ll , I grew up i n Kansas C i t y , Kansas.
p h ys i c ia n t h e r e .

My f a t h e r was a p r a c t i c i n g

He had g r a d u a t e d from t h e U n i v er s i t y o f Michigan a t

Ann A r b o r , and i n t h a t day t h e r e were v e r y few good Medical S c h o o l s ;
t h e r e were Rush, John Hopkins, Harv ard, and Michigan.

My mother was

born and brought up i n Monroe, Michigan, and a l s o went t o t h e U ni v e r s i t y
of Michig an.

Then m y f a t h e r came a s p h ys i c i a n t o t h e Mackey Mines i n

S t i l l w e l l , Kansas.

They s t a y e d t h e r e f o r a w h i l e and t h e n about t h e time

I was born t h e y moved t o Kansas C i t y , Kansas.
he d i e d a s a v e r y young ma n a t 4 2 .

He p r a c t i c e d t h e r e u n t i l

My grandmother

Downs and p a t e rn a l

g r a n d pa r e n t s l i v e d i n Kansas C i t y , Kansas, t o o , and t h a t i s where I grew
up.

I went t o high school i n Kansas C i t y , Kansas, and t h e n came t o t h e

U n i v er s i t y o f Kansas t o f i n i s h my A.B. d e g r e e.

I had a happy c h i l dh o o d ;

my mother used t o g i v e p a r t i e s f o r me, and a l l t o g e t h e r I had a v e r y
n i ce c h i l dh o o d .

here.

Q.

What made you s e l e c t t h e U n i v er s i t y o f Kansas?

A.

W el l , p a r t l y because a good many o f my f r i e n d s were coming

I t was c l o s e t o home and i t seemed t h e b e s t t h i n g t o do r a t h e r

than go o u t o f town, a l t ho u g h some of my f r i e n d s d id go e l s e w h e r e .
Q.

What do you remember a b o ut y o u r u n d e r g ra d u at e days a t t h e Univer­

s i t y o f Kansas?
A.

W e l l , I remember on e t h i n g t h a t I l i k e d v e r y much.

always r e ad a g r e a t d e a l a t home.

We had

My mother read a l o u d t o us and we

r e a d books, and my grandm other who was a t one t i m e a R e ge n t , t h e f i r s t

Page 2

woman t o be appo inted Regent a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Kansas.

I t seemed

n a t u r al f o r me t o come up t o K.U., and one o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I remembered
l i k i n g v e r y much was being allowed t o go i n t o t h e s t a c k s a t t h e o l d L i br a r y
and s i t i n t h e deep window s i l l s and read any book I wanted t o p u t my
hands o n .

That was kind o f a high p o i n t f o r me.

t o an o r g a n i z a t i on c a l l e d Alemannia.

And t h e n I belonged

We spo ke German a t t h e t a b l e and

t h a t has always s t ay e d w i t h me, more o r l e s s .

I found y e a r s l a t e r when

I went t o Germany t h e words would come back t o me t h a t I l e a r n e d y e a r s
ago.

So t h a t was a p l u s .

A l t o g e t h e r I enjoyed my y e a rs h e r e .

We had

d a n c e s ; I d o n ' t remember t h a t we played c a r d s ; I d i d belong tO ( a c a r d
c l u b i n Kansas C i t y , Kansas, b u t I d o n ' t remember t h a t a s a s t u d e n t we
played c a r d s .
Q.

I f I asked you t o d e s c r i b e t h e U ni v e r s i t y o f Kansas a s you

remember i t compared t o y o u r o t h e r e x p e ri e n c e s t h e r e , how wou ld you d e s c r i b e
it?

For example, what was t h e g e n e r a l c l i m a t e t h e r e , what were t h e f e e l i n g s

of h i gh e r e d uc a t i o n - was t h e l e g i s l a t u r e s u p p o r t i v e , t h a t s o r t o f t h i n g .
A.

I d o n ' t know whether t h e l e g i s l a t u r e was s u p p o r t i v e o r n o t .

The s t u d e n t body was i n t h e neighborhood o f 3 , 0 0 0 , and i t seemed t o me
t h a t we had some v e r y good i n s t r u c t o r s .

L at e r when I came back h e r e

t o t e a c h i n 1918 - I g r a d u a t ed i n 1915 and t h e n came back i n 1918 - I
r e a l i z e d then more t h a n I d i d a s an u n d e r g ra d u a t e t h a t we had some v e ry
o ut s t a n d i ng p r o f e s s o r s , which we have c o n t i n u e d t o h a ve , s o t h a t a l l
t o g e t h e r my y e a r s a t t h e U ni v er s i t y were v e r y p r o d u c t i v e and very happy
i n e v e r y way, r e a l l y .

We danced a good d e a l , a n d , a s I s a y , we d i d n ' t

seem t o p l a y c a r d s e x c e p t t h a t I c o n t i n ue d t o belong t o t h i s c l u b i n

Page 3

Kansas C i t y , and we g ra d u a l l y changed from Whist t o b r i d g e and so f o r t h .
I'm n o t much of a c a r d p l a y e r ; I can p l a y but i t ' s not one o f my f a v o r i t e
amusements.
Q. What kinds o f c a r e e r p l a n s d i d you have i n mind when you e n t e r e d
t h e U n i v er s i t y o f Kansas?
A.

I wanted v e ry much t o become a d o c t o r .

My f a t h e r was a person

whom I was v e r y v e ry fond o f and I thought i f I coul d become a d oc t o r
i t would be j u s t what I wanted t o d o .

But i t was e x p e n si v e t h e n, a s

i t i s now, and I simply c o u l d n ' t a f f o r d i t , and t h a t i s t h e reason I
d i d n ' t f i n i s h i n m e d i c i ne .
Q.

Do you remember a s a young c h i l d t a l k i n g t o your f a t h e r a l o t

a b o u t medicine?
A.

No.

I remember muc h more, l a t e r , t a l k i n g t o my mother who

had a l s o gone t o t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f Michigan and who s p e n t many y e a r s
in Germany where her u n cl e was an American Consul G en e r a l , a p po i n t e d
by P r e s i d e n t L i n c o l n ; s h e always spoke German v e r y well and I l e a r n e d
a l o t o f German from h e r .

They spoke French a t t h e t a b l e and so s h e

a l s o spoke Frenc h; s h e was v e ry l i t e r a t e and knew a g r e a t d e al a b ou t
t h e museums and g a l l e r y s i n Europe.

I p r o f i t e d by t h a t because s h e spoke

well and t o l d l o t s o f s t o r i e s a b o ut h e r l i f e i n Germany; t h a t was t h e
s o r t o f t h i n g t h a t c e r t a i n l y a f f e c t e d what I wanted t o d o .
Q.

So y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n s a r e more o f t h e i n f l u e n c e t h a t y o u r mother

had upon y o u.
A.

Well y e s , I was o n l y n i ne y e a r s o l d when my f a t h e r d ie d .

Q.

So you e n t e r e d w it h idea of s t u d y i n g medicine and t h e n r e a l i z e d

Page 4

t h a t t h a t was n ot p o s s ib l e ?
A.

Yes, and so t h e n e x t t h i n g was t o t a ke some c h e m i s t r y t o go

i n t o t h e Department of Microbi ology and become a Labor atory T e c h n i c i a n ,
which I d i d .

Immediately a f t e r g r a d u a t i o n I went t o t h e h o s pi t a l i n

Atchison and became a Labo rator y Technician t h e r e , and I was t h e r e f o r
p o s s i b l y t h r e e y ea r s and th en came back t o be an a s s i s t a n t i n t h e department
h e r e , and t a k e g r a d u at e work.
Q.

What made you come back and pursue y o u r s t u d i e s on t h e Graduate

A.

Because t h e Head o f t h e Department asked me t o ; I thought t h a t

level?

was a v e ry good i d e a .
Q.

And was i t i n f a c t a good i d e a f o r you?

A.

Yes, i t was, and t h a t was j u s t t h e beginn ning i n t r a i n i n g of

Labo rator y T e c h ' s ; i t became one o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t t h e department has
been noted f o r r i g h t a l o n g .

I t ' s developed v e r y well s o t h a t was r e a l l y

t h e v e ry b e g in n i n g ; many h o s p i t a l s had no l a b o r a t o r y f a c i l i t i e s a t a l l .
S o , i t was a forward l o o k i ng t h i n g .
Q.

So a t t h i s p o i n t we've t a l k e d a l i t t l e a b o u t y o ur undergraduat e

d a y s , now w e ' r e on y o u r g r a d ua t e d a ys , how woul d you compare y o u r t i m e
a t t h e U ni v e r s i t y between t h e two e x p e r i e nc e s ?
A.

I d o n ' t q u i t e u n de r s t a n d .

Q.

What do you remember a b o u t t h e U ni v e r s i t y a s a g r a d ua t e s t u d en t

a s being d i f f e r e n t from t h a t a s an u n d e r gr a d u a t e , o r s i m i l a r ?
A.

W e l l , t h a t ' s r a t h e r hard t o answer because a s an undergra duate

I was concerned p r i n c i p a l l y w i t h going t o c l a s s , and a s a g r ad u a t e s t u d e n t

Page 5
I was a Laboratory A s s i s t a n t and had t o work i n t h e l a b and teach
somewhat and a l s o t a k e c o u r s e s which I needed t o g e t an advanced d eg r e e .
Q.

Did you have d i f f e r e n t f e e l i n g s a b o u t t h e U n i v er s i t y of Kansas

a s an i n s t i t u t i o n i n y o u r g r a d u a t e days than you d i d a s an undergrad?
A.

No, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o .

I t was an e a s y t r a n s i t i o n ; I t h i n k t h e

f i r s t t i me I r e a l i z e d t h a t t h e r e was a c o n s i d er a b l e d i f f e r e n c e i n g r a d u a t e
work a t o t h e r u n i v e r s i t i e s was whe n I went t o t h e U ni v er s i t y of Chicago
i n t h e summer t o t a k e a f u l l q u a r t e r s work i n summer.
dom of

We had more f r e e ­

going t o t h e l i b r a r i e s , t h ey had a much b e t t e r l i b r a r y a t Chicago

t h a n t h e y d i d a t K.U.

And well a g a i n , you s e e , t h e r e was a g r e a t i n t e r e s t

i n books so t h a t i s one o f t h e o u ts t a n d in g t h i n g s .

There was a l s o a

man a t path ology a t Chic ago, Dr. H. G. W e l l s , who was a m a g n if i c e n t t e a c h e r ,
and I was v e r y much i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e c o u r s e s t h a t he gave and enjoyed
them v e r y much, a l t h o u gh l i v i n g i n Chicago was n o t t h e b e s t t h i n g i n
the world.
at all.

The U n i v e r s it y o f Chicago had no s u p e r vi s i o n o v e r t h e s t u d e nt s

You j u s t found a p l a c e t o l i v e and hoped i t would be a l l r i g h t ;

t h e r e w a s n ' t any o f t h i s l o o k i ng a f t e r them.
Q.

What made you go t h e r e f o r t h e summer?

A.

Because o f Dr. Wells who was an o u t s t a n d i n g p a t h o l o g i s t ; i f

I had f i n i s h e d i n med icine I would have become a p a t h o l o g i s t .
Q.

Were t h e r e o t h e r female g r a d ua t e s t h a t were s t u d y i n g when you

A.

Very few.

Q.

Do you f e e l a s a woman t h a t you had o t h er b a t t l e s t o f i g h t

were?

a s i d e from proving y o u r s e l f ?
A.

No, I d i d n ' t a t t h a t t i m e ; i t w a s n ' t u n t i l I began t o t e a c h

h e re a t t h e U ni v e r s i t y o f Kansas t h a t t h e r e was a c o n s i d er a b l e gap between
t h e t r e a t m e n t of men and women on t h e f a c u l t y .

There was o n l y one women

Page 6
when I came back i n 1918 wh o was head of a d e p a r t me n t , t h a t was M adame
G a ll o o , head of t h e French Department.

And g e n e r a l l y t h e f a c u l t y was

a l 1 men e x c e p t a s s i s t a n t s o r t h e lowly r a nk s , and t h a t d i s c r i m i n a t i o n
cont inue d f o r a g r e a t many y e a r s .

I was very well t r e a t e d , but t h a t

was because t h e head of o u r depar tment was n o t b i a s e d a g a i n st women.
Q.

There were many wh o wer e?

A.

Oh y e s .

Q.

How does t h a t m an i f e s t i t s e l f ?

A.

By lower s a l a r i e s and lower r a n k .

You s e e , when I say t h e r e

was o n l y one woman wh o was head o f a d e pa r t m e n t , t h a t i n i t s e l f s a y s
someth ing.
Q.

I see.

Now do you

know i f t h a t was j u s t t y p i c a l o f t h e U n i v e r s it y

a t t h a t time o r would you s a y i t was widespread ?
A.

No, i t was a l l o v e r t h e c o u n t r y and i t cont inued i n t o t h e 20th

c e n t u r y because I can remember going w i th a f r i e n d o f mine t o Harvard
where wo men wou ld have 1unch by themselves i f t h e y w i s h e d , b u t t h e y had
t o go by way of

t h e back s t a i r s .

And t h a t w a s n' t t o o long a g o ; i t was

a f t e r 1918 anyway.
Q.

You became aware o f t h e d i s c r i mi n a t i o n when you were f i r s t

appointed to the faculty?
A.

Soon a f t e r .

Q.

But you never had t h a t awareness a s a g r a d u a t e s t u d e n t ?

A.

No.

Q,

How had y our c a r e e r i n t e r e s t s become f u r t h e r d ef i n e d i n y o u r

g r a d u a t e s t u d i es ?
t h a t time?

Did you s e l e c t a s p e c i f i c a r e a of microbiology a t

Page 7
A.

W e l l , t h a t ' s hard t o answer.

As you may know I

became a s p e c i a l

i n T u l ar e mi a ; t h a t was a kind of a t u r n i n g p o i n t because I saw a c a s e
of Tulare mia and s u s p e c t e d t h a t t h a t ' s what i t was.

That was i n t h e

3 0 ' s and t h a t was when t h e r e were a g r e a t many people who were o u t o t
jobs.

A m an had gone o u t t o s h o o t r a b b i t s f o r f o o d ; he became i n f e c t e d

and had a v e r y bad i n f e c t i o n , and i t was r a r e enough s o t h a t i t w a s n ' t
g e n er a l l y r e co g n i z e d .

I s e n t a sample of m a t e r i a l from h i s i n f e c t i o n

t o a man i n Washington who had s t u d i e d T u l a r e m i a , and t h e word came back " y e s , " he does have Tulare mia ana be c a r e fu l because i t was very e a s y
to get infected.

The ma n g o t well because i t ' s n o t o r d i n a r i l y a f a t a l

i n f e c t i o n ; t h a t c a u g h t my i n t e r e s t v e r y much so I c o n t i n u e d t o work w i t h
Tularem ia u n t i l I g r a d u a t e d .
Q.

What were y o u r i n t e r e s t s p r i o r t o y o ur i n t e r e s t i n Tularemia?

A.

P r i n c i p a l l y i n medical microbiolog y and i n medical c o ur s e s

generally.

I f i n i s h e d what was th en r e q u i re d f o r t h e f i r s t two y e a r s

of m e d i c i ne ; s t u d e nt s t h e n went t o t h e Kansas C it y C en t e r .

W e ll , I took

anatomy and c h em i s t r y and o t h e r c o ur s e s t h a t were r e q u i r e d , and f i n i s h e d
t h e f i r s t two y e a r s i n m e di c i n e .

But I never took what was c a l l e d t h e

clinical years.
Q.

And what d i d you do a f t e r t h e f i r s t two y e a r s ?

A.

I c o n ti n u ed t o t e a c h i n t h e d e p ar t m en t .

Q.

You s a i d t h e c a s e o f Tularemia had been a t u r ni n g p o i n t f o r

A.

Yes, because i t was newly d e s cr i b e d and I had heard a man wh o

y o u.

was a s p e c i a l i s t i n i t speak a t one of t h e m e et i n g s and i t seemed t o
me t h a t h i s d e s c r i p t i o n f i t t h e two people we saw; s o I c o n t i n ue d t o
be i n t e r e s t e d i n i t ; i t i s indeed a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g d i s e a s e ,

it's

Page 8
t r a n sm i t t e d by t i c k s and t h a t i n i t s e l f i s i n t e r e s t i n g , so i t simply
a t t r a c t e d my i n t e r e s t .
Q.

Would you s a y t h a t was t h e s i g n i f i c a n t i n t e r e s t of your c a r e e r ,

o r had you developed o t h er i n t e r e s t s ?
A.

Oh, o t h e r i n t e r e s t s of c o u r s e.

During t h e war I had a former

s t u d en t who was i n f l u e n t i a l i n s e t t i n g up t h e b i o l o g i c al w a r f a r e l a b o r a t o r i e s .
He asked me t o come back t o F r e d e r i c k , Maryland, where I took a p a r t
i n t h e work t h a t was done t h e r e d u ri n g World War I I .
Q.

What do you remember ab out Lawrence up u n t i l t h e n i n terms

of a community, i n terms o f i t s r e l a t i o n s h i p t o t h e U n i v e r s i t y , r e c o l l e c ­
t i o n s a b o u t t h e C ha n c e l l o r s , t h e economy, Kansas b e f o r e World War I I ?
A.
a r e now.

I t hi n k I was p r e t t y o b l i v i o u s t o world a f f a i r s , a s many s t u d e n t s
Although I would s a y t h e y a r e probably b e t t e r informed a b o u t

world a f f a i r s than your a v e ra g e s t u d e n t was when I was i n s c ho o l .

In

Kansas women cou ld v o t e , and a t one t i me t h e woman w ho was head o f t h e
French department s t a r t e d an o r g a n i z a t io n o f women w ho were i n t e r e s t e d
in politics.

I was p r e s i d e n t o f t h a t f o r a b o u t a school y e a r and t h e r e

was a good deal of i n t e r e s t i n t h a t .

I belonged t o a f a m i l y t h a t was

always i n t e r e s t e d i n p o l i t i c s b u t you c o u l d n ' t s a y t h e y were p o l i t i c a l
because t h ey d i d n ' t hold any o f f i c e .

As you know, my grandm other was

a p p o i n te d by t h e p o p u l i s t s governor Governo r, John P . S t . J o h n ; s h e was
t h e f i r s t woman e v e r t o be a p p o i n te d a Regent.

W e ll , s i n c e t h a t t i me

t h e r e have been s e ve r a l women on t h e Board o f R e g en t s .

I heard j u s t

t o d a y , and was v e r y g l a d t o h e a r i t , t h a t t h e S t a t e now does pay something,
( a p e ns i o n) b u t f o r a l o n g t i m e a widow w hose husband may have s e rve d
20 o r 25 y e a r s on t h e f a c u l t y r e ce i v e d n o t h i n g a f t e r h i s d e a t h .

And

change came up through t h e good o f f i c e s of some o f women f a c u l t y members.

Page 9
That was a s t e p i n adva nce, b u t a very long t i m e i n coming.
Q.

You t a l k e d a b o u t y o ur grandmoth er, were you p a r t i c u l a r l y c l o s e

to her?
A.

Yes, I was and s h e l i v e d j u s t down t h e s t r e e t most of my growing

up d a y s ; she loved t o have me w i t h her and she was a very l i t e r a t e p e r s o n ;
she t a l k e d about books, r e ad books, and loved t h e t h e a t r e , took me t o
t h e t h e a t r e whenever p o s s i b l e ; K.C. a t t h a t t i m e was a good l i v e t h e a t r e
town, s o t h a t t h i s always s t r u c k me a s funny t h a t d u ri n g Holy Week t h e
New Yor k c a s t always came and p u t on a week of good p l a ys .

When I s a y

a good c a s t I mean J u l i a Marlowe and E.H. Sothern and o t h e r r e a l l y good
actors.

I ' v e always loved t h e t h e a t r e and I t h i nk i t was her i n t e r e s t

t h a t i n t ro d u c e d me t o i t .

I would go t o London any day now t o s e e l i v e

theatre.
Q.

When you f i r s t became aware o f t h e d is c r i m i na t i on a g a in s t women

a s a f a c u l t y member were any s t e p s t a k e n a t t h a t t i me , were t h e r e any
a c t i v i t i e s among t h e few women t h a t were here t o c o r r e c t t h a t ?
A.

I suppose t h e r e must have been but I d o n ' t remember any p a r t i c u l a r

o r g a n iz a t i o n o r a n y t h i ng o f t h a t s o r t .

Whatever was done was an i n d i v i du a l

thing.
Q.

Did i t a f f e c t you i n any way, t h e f a c t t h a t you were a woman

f a c u l t y member?
A.

Very l i t t l e ; I always thought t h a t I was v e r y f o r t u n a t e because

t h e head o f microbiolo gy d i d n ' t d i s cr i m i n a t e a g a i n s t me, e x ce p t i n one
o r two i n s t a n c e s which I would r a t h e r n o t go i n t o .

And I had t h e same

s a l a r y and t h e same t r e a t m e nt a s men i n t h e d e pa r t m e n t .

I t was a small

d e p a r t m en t b u t s t i l l I k e p t w e l l ahead o f t h e man wh o was on my l e v e l
s o I d i d n ' t f e e l any d i s c r i m i n a t i o n .

I knew t h e r e was d i s c r i m i n a t i o n

and I was g l a d t h a t t h e head o f my dep artmen t h i ms e l f d i d n ' t f e e l t h e r e

Page 10
should be.
Q.

How d i d you know t h e r e was d i s c r i m i n at i o n ?

A.

I was s u f f i c i e n t l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e p o l i t i c a l movement t o

r e a l i z e t h e r e was d i s c r i m i n a t i o n , a l s o t h e mere f a c t t h a t t h e re was o n l y
one woman i n an academic p o s i t i o n who wa s Head o f a department made i t
obvious because t h e r e were o t h e r women wh o would q u a l i f y .

There were

two women, one was Madame Gal l o o who wa s Head o f t h e French Department
and t h e o t h e r who w as head o f Home Economics, but t h a t was n a tu r a l so
«
you c o u l d n ' t t a l k about d i s c r i m i n a t i o n i n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r i n s t a n c e .

And

of c o u r s e t h e y l a t e r a b o l is h e d Home Econom ics which was a l l r i g h t ; a f t e r
a l l t h e U n i v e r s i ty o f Kansas was an independent i n s t i t u t i o n ; t h e r e was
a v e r y good Home Econo mics program a t Kansas S t a t e and t h a t seemed t o
be t h e l o g i c a l p l a ce t o have i t .
Q.

You s a i d e a r l i e r t h a t t h e reason t h a t medicine was n o t a p o s s i b i l i t y

f o r you a s a c a r e e r was f i n a n c i a l r e a s o ns .
a s a g r a d u at e s t ud e n t ?

How d i d you a f f o r d your c a r e e r

Were you funded?

A.

No.

Only t h a t I was a s s i s t a n t i n t h e l a b and was p ai d .

Q.

Could you s u p p o r t y o u r s e l f on t h a t ?

A.

No, I had h e lp from my mother and b r o t h e r .

Q.

Your b r o t h er was o l d e r t h a n you?

A.

Yes, e i g h t y e a r s o l d e r and always a v e ry good companion; he

neve r m ar r i e d , he was good t o t h e f a m i l y , we s p e n t a g r e a t deal of time
l a t e r t r a v e l l i n g t o g et h e r and he was always s u p p o r t i v e of whatever I
wanted t o d o .
Q.

Was he y our o n l y s i b l i n g ?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Now, can we go .to t h a t i n v i t a t i o n you r e c e i ve d from a s t u de n t

t o go t o Maryland.

Page 11

A.

He was a s t u d e n t i n t h e department of microbiology who'went

t o Harvard t o f i n i s h h i s g r a d u a t e s t u d i e s ; t h e n from Harvard t o t h e Rockv i l l e I n s t i t u t e , and e v e n t u a l l y he had a hand a t o r g a n i z a t i o n of b i o l o g i c a l
w ar f a r e a t F o r t D i e t r i c k , Maryland.

He asked me t o come t o t h e R o c k e f e l l e r

I n s t i t u t e a l s o f o r a y e a r b e f o r e t h e war; when t h e war broke o u t he was
i n c h a r g e a t t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s i n D i e t r i c k , and I was t h e r e u n t i l t h e
end o f t h e w a r .
Q.

What can you t e l l me a b o u t your e xp e r i e n ce s t h e r e ?

A.

W e ll , i t was an i n t e r e s t i n g e x p e r i en c e ; t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s were

i n a temporary b ui l d i n g .
warfare,

We were i n s t r u c t e d t o be i n t e r e s t e d i n d ef e n s i v e

not in offensive.

Tularemia was a d i s e a s e which i t seemed

p o s s i bl e c o ul d be used a s a d e f e n s i ve weapon.

As f a r a s I know i t never

was, b u t we s t u d i e d t h e v a r i o u s ways i n which t h e organism could be used
a s an a e r o s o l , o r v a r i ou s ways o f d i s s i m i l a t i n g t h e organism.

It is

a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g e x p e r i e n c e because m i c r o b i o l o g i s t s were g a th e re d from
a l l a r o u n d , a g r e a t many from t h e U n i v e r s i t ie s o f Ohio and Wisco nsin;
we a l s o had a c o r p s o f WACS and WAVES.

G e ne r a l l y s p e ak i n g t h e y had been

e i t h e r c h em i st r y o r b i ol o g y s t u d e n t s , s o i t was a way of meeting a g r e a t
many p eopl e i n your f i e l d .

I had o ne l e t t e r a f t e r t h e w a r , when t h e y

c e a s e d t o be s o s e c r e t , a l e t t e r o f p r o t e s t a g a i n s t b i o l o g i c al w a r f a r e
being such a t e r r i b l e t h i n g .

To m e i t d i d n ' t seem t o be any worse t h e n

any o f t h e o t h e r t e r r i b l e weapons.

So I had no f e e l i n g o f g u i l t from

workin g.
Q.

So t h e r e d i d n ' t seem t o be any c o n f l i c t s f o r you?

A.

Not from me, b u t o f c o ur s e b i o l o g i c a l w a r f a r e was banned a f t e r

t h e w a r , b u t t h e r e ' s no doub t t h a t t h e Anthrax b r e a k o u t i n Russia meant

Page 12

t h a t t h ey were s t i l l working and we have q u i t e good evidence t h a t t h e
Germans were s t a r t i n g t o work on b i o l o g i c a l w a r f a r e , d u r i n g t h e w a r .
Q.

So your r o l e was developi ng Tularemia a s an a e ro s o l f o r t h e

use of b i o l o g i c al w a r f a r e ;
A.

what e x a c t l y happened, was t h a t developed?

Tularemia and s e ve r a l o t h e r d i s e a s e s were s t u d i e d from t h e s t a n d p o i n t

of d i ss e mi n a t i n g t h e d i s e a s e , p r ev e n t i n g i t i n a s u s c e p t i b l e p o p u l a t i o n,
and c u r i ng i t ; a n t i b i o t i c s were j u s t coming i n t o c u r e t he s e d i s e a s e s
so t h a t i t seemed t o me a g r e a t deal of worthwhile work came o u t o f t h e se
s t u d i e s . They were e x p en s i ve and t h e y c o u l d h a r d l y have been done under
ordinary civilian conditions.
Q.

You f e l t very c o m f o r t a b l e then?

A.

I did.

Q.

How d i d you f e e l when you r e ce i v e d t h a t l e t t e r ?

A.

Well , I thou ght he j u s t d i d n ' t know what he was t a l k i n g a b o u t .

Q.

The c o l l e a g u e s you worked w i t h a t t h a t t i m e , d i d t h e y e x p e r ie n ce

any c o n f l i c t s t h a t you knew o f ?
A.

I d o n ' t remember t h a t anyone d i d .

We had some v e r y f i n e m i cr o ­

b i o l o g i s t s , e s p e c i a l l y from t h e U ni v e r s i t y o f Wisconsin, and t h e y were
v e ry d e d i c at e d and f e l t t h i s must be s t u d i e d o r e l s e t h e U.S. would be s o
f a r behind t h a t i t could be used a g a i n s t u s .

S o , i t was a p r e t t y h i gh -

powered , d e d i c a t e d grou p.
Q.

Of c o ur s e f e e l i n g s of p a t r i o t i s m , I would i m ag i n e , may have

been d i f f e r e n t then from t h e way people t h i nk now.
A.

T h a t ' s always t r u e d u ri n g a war; o f c o u r s e , t h e r e were d i s s i d e n t s

b u t t h e y d i d n ' t make mu ch f u s s .
Q.

Did you meet any high l e v e l government o f f i c i a l s a t t h i s time?

Page 13

A.

We had a s t r ea m o f v i s i t o r s , i n c l u di n g anybody who wo uld q u a l i f y

t o be c l e a r e d f o r s e c r e t work.

I t was very s e c r e t , so t h e r e were a g r e a t

many v i s i t o r s from t h e government who cam e t o t h e camp and looked a t
the facilities.

E v e n tu a l l y t h o s e temporary q u a r t e r s were made i n t o v er y

f i n e permanent l a b o r a t o r i e s , and t h e y ' r e s t i l l o p e r a t i n g .
Q.

What kinds o f t h i n g s a r e t h e y doing now?

A.

W e l l , t h e y ' r e working on i n f e c t i o u s d i s e a s e and a l s o on c a n ce r .

Q.

Do you have any r e l a t i o n s h i p t o them anymore ?

A.

Not anymore.

were t h e r e .

I used t o corre spond w i t h some o f t h e people who

But o f f i c i a l l y I c o n t i n u e d t o be a c o n s u l t a n t f o r a b o ut

t e n y e a r s a f t e r t h e end of t h e w a r .

I would go back t w i c e a y e a r and

look o v e r one t h i n g o r a n o t h e r .
Q.

So o f f i c i a l l y when you were t h e r e you were on l e a v e from t h e

U n i v er s i t y ?
A.

Yes, I was.

Q.

What d i d t h e f a c u l t y t h i n k you were working o n , i f t h i s was

so much o f a s e c r e t ?
A.

I d o n ' t know what t h e y t h o u g h t , b u t I remember o ne f a c u l t y woman

s a y i n g t o me, "What a r e you working on?" and I s a i d " I c a n ' t t e l l y o u ,
i t ' s secret."
few d a y s. "

She s a i d " I suppose I ' l l s e e i t i n t h e paper i n t h e n e x t

I t h i n k t h a t was t h e a t t i t u d e o f a good ma ny p e o p l e .

s e c r e c y was a l l nons ense.
Q.

R e a ll y ?

A.

But i t w a s n ' t .

This

Page 14

TAPE 2 - INTERVIEW 1
Q.

We were t a l k i n g a b o ut t h e n o t i o n o f s e c r e c y surrounding y o u r

A.

Yes.

work.
We knew thro ugh o u r i n t e l l i g e n c e t h a t t h e Germans were

working on b i o l o g i c a l w ar f a r e on an i s l a n d on t h e B a l t i c , and I'm s u r e
t h e Russians were working on i t , t o o .

This o u t b r e a k o f Anthrax t h a t

was mentioned i n t h e paper two o r t h r e e y e a r s a g o , I f e e l q u i t e s u r e
t h a t t h ey were working on b i o l o gi c a l w a r f a r e .

And o f c o u r s e , a s I s a i d ,

i t s t i l l goes on because t h e r e ' s so much t h a t can be done i n t h e way
o f p r e v e nt i v e m e di c i ne , and from t h a t s t a n d p o i n t , you s e e , i t ' s a v e r y
good t h i n g .
A.

But you s a i d people kind o f laughed a t t h e n o t i o n o f s e c r e c y .

Q.

Well , t h e y d i d n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t i t was so s e c r e t , b u t i t r e a l l y

w a s , and a s f a r a s I know no one t h a t I knew v i o l a t e d t h e s e c r e c y , and
I was q u i t e convinced t h a t i t must b e .

I t ' s a v e ry d i f f i c u l t t hi n g t o

e x p l a i n w i t ho u t going i n t o t e c h n i c a l d e t a i l s .

I t ' s n o t an e a s y t h i ng

t o d i s s e mi n a t e d i s e a s e , a l t h o u g h when we have a b i g epidemic i t l o o k s
l i k e i t ought t o be p r e t t y e a s y , b u t i t i s n ' t .
Q.

I can understand t h a t .

How long were you i n Maryland?

How

l o n g d i d you spend working a t F o r t D i e t r i c k ?
A.

W e l l , I went t o F o r t D i e t r i c k i n 1 9 4 3 , and s t a y ed t h e r e u n t i l

t h e war was o v e r.

I came back from t i m e t o t i me and t a u g h t a c l a s s f o r

a s e m e s t e r . - But e s s e n t i a l l y I was a c t i v e l y i n v ol v e d i n t h e y e a r s between
1943 and 1945.
Q.

I s t h e r e a n y t h i ng e l s e a b o u t t h o s e y e a r s t h a t you f e e l were

s i g n i f i c a n t t o you?

Page 15

A.

Well , I t h i n k I was f o r t u n a t e because Mr. M al o t t , who was t h e n

C h a n ce l l o r , was v e ry s u p p o r t i v e , and he knew what was going on.

Some

of t h e people a t t h e t o p o f t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n c l e a r e d him, and many knew
what was going o n , s o t h e r e was no q u e s t i o n a s t o t h a t I could s t a y t h e r e
and work.
Q.

We g ot v a r i o u s s u b s t i t u t e s i n c l a s s e s t h a t I had a l r e a d y t a u g h t .
Was he t h e o n l y one from t h e U n i v er s i t y who knew b a s i c a l l y what

you were doing and why?
A.

Yes, I t h i n k s o .

Q.

Do you t h i n k t h a t would have mad e a d i f f e r e n c e i f he h a d n ' t

known?
A.

Yes, because t h e r e was some f e e l i n g t h a t I ought t o come back

and t e ac h my c l a s s e s .

Then t h e agency c l e a r e d Mr. M a l o t t and t o l d him

what was going o n , and t h en t h e r e was no q u e s t i o n o f what I could be
on.
Q.

Did you r c o l l e a g u e s i n any way r e s e n t t h e f a c t t h a t you were

gone f o r s o long?
A.

Yes, I t h i n k t h e r e was some r e s en t m e n t , a l t h o u gh n o t much.

Q.

Was i t d i f f i c u l t t h a t you c o u l d n ' t e x p l a in t o them what you

were doing?
A.

W el l , y e s .

And I was always a l i t t l e a f r a i d t h a t by some chance

I would drop a word o r two t h a t would r e ve a l some o f t h e t hi n g s t h a t
I was supposed n o t t o s a y .

But I d o n ' t know, a s f a r a s I know I d i d n ' t .

But i t was d i f f i c u l t beca use o r d i n a r i l y you t a l k a b o u t y o u r work v e r y
o p e n l y , and I c o u l d n ' t under t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s .
Q.

I could imagine t h a t a s being somewhat s t r e s s f u l f o r y o u .

A.

Yes, i t was t o a c e r t a i n e x t e n t .

A f t e r t h e war when I f l e w

Page 16

back and s t a y e d over t h e weekend and looked a t t h e work t h a t was going
on t h e r e , t h a t t o me was t h e most d i f f i c u l t p a r t .

When t h e war was going

on and I was permanently a t F o r t D i e t r i c k , t h a t was a l l r i g h t , I w a s n ' t
v e r y well housed, b u t we g o t a l o n g a l l r i g h t and I wondered a t times
whether s l e e p i n g on an army c o t and going down t h e h a l l t o t h e bathroom
and t h e show ers, I wondered how I would t a k e t h a t .

But I g o t a l o n g .

Everybody e l s e d id t o o .
Q.

What was t h e most d i f f i c u l t f o r y o u , you s a i d something a b o u t

when you f l e w back f o r t h e weekend?
A.

Oh, y e s .

That was d i f f i c u l t i n a way because I had t o g e t ready

and go on a two-engine p l a n e and change p l a n e s i n P i t t s b u r g h and w a i t
t h e r e and f i n a l l y g e t t r a n s p o r t a t i o n .

I t was d i f f i c u l t .

I definitely

f e e l a two-eng ine plane today i s n o t t o o s a f e , b u t I d i d n ' t t h i n k a b o ut
i t at the time.
Q.

S o , you r e a l l y were doin g i n a way an a l l - o u t e f f o r t f o r y o u r

c o u n t r y when y o u r l i v i n g c o n d i t i o n s were n o t e x c e l l e n t .
A.

No, t h ey w e r e ' n t l u x u r i o u s .

Q.

And you were v e ry l i m i t e d c e r t a i n l y , i n what you could and could

n o t s a y which caused some d i f f i c u l t y f o r you h e r e a t t h e U n i ve r s i t y ,
y e t you were r e a l l y d e di c a t e d t o work t h a t was going o n .
A.

W e ll , t h e work i t s e l f was i n t e r e s t i n g and I f e l t t h a t t h e i d ea

t h a t we i n t h i s c o u n t r y s h o ul d know a t l e a s t a s much a s t h e enemy d i d
and t h a t was w o r t hw h i l e , s o I d o n ' t know t h a t I c o n s c i ou sl y t h o ug h t i t
was a p a t r i o t i c e f f o r t ; i t was something t o me t h a t seemed i n t e r e s t i n g
and w o r t h wh i l e , so I d o n ' t know t h a t I can c l a i m t o be v e r y p a t r i o t i c .
That was a b o u t i t .

Page 17

A.

Okay.

Did y o u r work t a k e any d i f f e r e n t d i r e c t i o n a s a r e s u l t

of your e x p e r ie n c e s t h e r e ?
Q.

Yes, I t h i n k i t d i d because a f t e r t h e war I had v ar i o u s government

c o n t r a c t s t o do r e s e a r c h and I became p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e
epidemiology of Tularemia and t h e t i c k t r a n s m i s s i o n o f Tularemia which
opens up a v e ry c o mp l i ca t e d c y c l e , from i n f e c t i n g a n i ma l s , t o t i c k s ,
t o man, and s o f o r t h .

I t h i n k t h a t I would s a y t h a t i t extended my i d e a

o f t h e d i s e a s e t r a n s m is s i o n s p e c i f i c a l l y .
Q.

Was t h a t where you c o nc e n t r at e d y o u r e f f o r t s ?

A.

Yes, f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s a f t e r t h e w a r.

T h a t was an i n t e r e s t i n g

a sp e c t of t h e r e s e a r c h .
Q.

Would you l i k e t o t a l k a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t t h a t ?

A.

W el l , I d o n ' t know, i t ' s s o r t of a t e ch n i c a l t h i n g and I suppose

t h a t a g r e a t many more p e o p l e know about i t now t h a n t h e y d i d .

There

were some v e r y good s t u d e n t s i n entomology, one i n p a r t i c u l a r t h a t I
s t i l l c o r re s p o n d w i t h who was i n t e n s e l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e t r a n sm i s s io n
of Tularemia arid o t h e r d i s e a s e s from animals t o t i c k s t o man.
back a g a i n , which u s u a l l y was t h e r o u t e t h a t i t t o o k .

And sometimes

A g r o u p , one o r

two o f whom had been a t D i e t r i c k , went t o Alaska because we t h o u gh t ,
and I t h i n k i t was t r u e , t h a t t h e Russians r e a l i z e d t h a t Tularemia was
a d i s e a s e t h a t might be used i n b i o l o g i c a l w a r f a r e .

They a l s o developed

a l i v e v a c c i n e which we had n o t produced o r u s e d , and s o a f t e r t h e war
q u i t e a l o t was done i n t h a t r e s p e c t .

I went t o Alaska w it h two o t h e r

members wh o had been a t D i e t r i ck and we wor ked t h e r e t r y i n g t o f i n d o u t
by means o f a s k i n t e s t , how ma ny n a t i v e s t h e r e had had T u l a r e m ia ; we
found q u i t e a c o n s i d er a b l e l o t o f p e o p l e .

And t h e y had g o t t e n i t a s

Page 18

was disseminated i n t h a t c o u n t ry from s i c k r a b b i t s t o t i c k s , o r sometimes
o t h e r i n s e c t s , and t h e n t o man.
Q.

Yet r a r e l y from man t o man.

Now you have saTd e a r l i e r t h a t y o u r v e r y f i r s t e x pe r i en c e w i th

Tularemia came from an e x p e r ie n ce with a man w ho had s h o t a r a b b i t , i s
that correct?
A.

That's right.

Q.

But you s a i d he was n o t t h a t t e r r i b l y i l l .

A.

No, a s a r u l e Tularemi a does n o t have high m o r t a l i t y b u t i t ' s

d i s a b l i n g , s o r t of c h r o n i c , i t may become a c h r o n i c d i s e a s e .
Q.

Now ho w i s t h a t kind o f a d i s e a s e used i n b i o l o g i c a l w a r f a r e ?

A.

I f t h e organism was d i s se m i n a t e d i n t o l a r g e r amounts you would

g e t a g r e a t number o f c a s es o f Tularemia pneumonia which may be f a t a l .
So from t h a t s t an d p o i n t i t ' s n o t o n l y d i s a b l i n g b u t i t ' s a r e a l menace.
Q.

I s i t s t i l l a menace today?

A.

I d o n ' t know.

I t ' s been v e r y well p u b l i c i z e d and I t h i n k t h a t

i f you took a census among t h e f a r m e r s around h e r e , f o r i n s t a n c e , o r
i n o t h e r p l a c e s where i t ' s endemic, you would f i n d t h a t t h e y knew a good
deal a b o u t i t and would n o t have a n y t h i n g t o do w i t h s i c k r a b b i t s .

Now

w i t h a r a b b i t t h a t r u n s a c t i v e l y , chance s a r e i t i s n ' t s i c k , b u t a t t h e
d e pt h s o f t h e d e pr e s s i on when I f i r s t saw p a t i e n t s , p e o pl e wanted r a b b i t s
f o r food and w e r e n ' t v e r y d i s c r i m i n a t i n g a b o u t i t .
Q.

I see.

You went t o Alaska f o l lo w i n g t h e war and c o n t i n u e d y o u r

r e se a r c h i n Tularemia ; how l ong were you t h e r e ?
A.

W e l l , I was t h e r e o n l y two o r t h r e e weeks, and a f t e r w a r d s I

k e p t i n touch w i t h t h e Navy B i o l o g i c al Laborato ry a t Anchorage.

They

d i d a l o t o f work showing t h a t t h e n a t i v e s had been i n f e c t e d w i t h a p p a r e n t l y

Page 19

a mild organ ism.

A g r e a t many of them were immune; t h a t can be shown

by s k i n t e s t s ; we d i d a l o t of s k i n t e s t i n g on Alaskan I n d i a n s .
Q.

Did you s e l e c t Alaska because of t h e n a t i v e s ?

A.

W el l , y e s , and because Alaska i s v e r y c l o s e t o Russia and so

we s u sp e ct e d t h a t t h e r a b b i t s i n Russian d n t e h r a b b i t s i n Alaska might
have t h e same kind o f s t r a i n .
Q.

I see.

Now w hen d i d you a t t e n d t h e R o c k ef e l l e r I n s t i t u t e ?

A.

That was i n 1939 j u s t a t t h e begin ning o f t h e w a r .

Q.

So i t was b e f o r e you went t o D i e t r i c k .

And what was y o u r work

there about?
A.

W el l , i t g e t s a l i t t l e t e c h n i c al b u t perhaps I could s a y t h a t

t h e organism t h a t c a us e s T u la r e m i a , was an organism t h a t d o e s n ' t l i k e
t o grow on t h e s u r f a c e o f a medium.

I was t r y i n g t o devel op a way o f

growing t h e organism on a s u r f a c e o f a medium so t h a t we could enumerate
t h e number o f organisms i n a c e r t a i n sampl e.
a t D i et r i c k .

T h a t developed v e r y well

I d i d n ' t g e t much of anywhere on i t w h i l e I was a y e a r

a t R o c k e fe l l e r .
Q.

W el l , you c e r t a i n l y had a v e r y , v e r y f a s c i n a t i n g e xp e r i e n c e .

A.

Yes, I have h a d , and I have enjoyed i t v e r y much.

I ' v e e n j oy e d

knowing t h e s e o t h e r p e o p l e , t he s e good m i c r o b i o l o g i s t s from v a r i ou s p l a c e s ,
from t h i s c o u n t ry and a l s o from England i n p a r t i c u l a r , and i t ' s been
worthwhile a s f a r a s I ' m c o n c e r n ed .

I d o n ' t do a n y t h i n g p r o f e s s i o n a l l y

now and I d o n ' t r e g r e t i t because I ' m i n t e r e s t e d i n o t h e r t h i n g s .
Q.

Did you e v e r f e e l f r u s t r a t i o n t h a t you had n o t been a b l e t o

go through w i t h your hopes t o become a p h y s i ci a n ?
A.

Oh, y e s , o f c o u r s e I d i d .

Because I wanted v e ry much t o become

Page 20

a p h y s i c ia n which probably would have meant a very d i f f e r e n t p r o f e ss i o n al
l i f e , but i t i s n ' t t h e s o r t of t h i n g t h a t you j u s t mourn o v e r .
g o t t o go o n .

You've

My mother and my b r ot h e r were very s u p p or t i v e of whatever

I wanted t o do so I d i d n ' t have any o p p o s i t i o n .
Q.

You've had e x p e r i e n ce a t t h e U ni v e r s i t y o f Kansas f o r many y e a r s .

What changes have you seen?
A.

On t h e whole I ' d s a y t h a t always i t ' s been u p h i l l .

I t ' s much

more s o p h i s t i c a t e d , a b e t t e r U n i v e r s i t y , c e r t a i n l y than i t was when I
e n t e r e d a s a freshman.

There were some o u t s t a n d i ng f a c u l t y members a t

t h a t t i me , a s t h e r e a r e now, b u t s t i l l i t i s b e t t e r t h a n i t was.
Q.

What about t h e way t h e l e g i s l a t u r e and t h e U n i v e r s i t y , o r t h e

Regents and t h e L e g i s l a t u r e , i n t e r a c t , do you s e e any changes t h e r e from
y o u r own e x p er i e n c e s ?
A.

W e ll , I d o n ' t know; you s e e , I was never i n any a d mi n i s t r a t i v e

p o s i t i o n b u t t h e y used t o s a y , and I t h i n k t h e r e was some t r u t h i n i t ,
t h a t t h e l e g i s l a t u r e was l a r g e l y composed o f peopl e who were f a r m e r s
o r i n some conn ectio n w i th farms and t h a t t h ey tfended t o f a vo r Manhattan
o v er Lawrence.
Q.

When were t h o s e kinds o f comments?

A.

All a l o n g .

some remnants o f i t .

T h a t has g r a du a l l y d i m i n i s h ed , I t h i n k ; t h e r e a r e
There a r e a g r e a t number o f good u n i v e r s i t i e s i n

t h i s c o u n t r y , but t h e r e a r e r e l a t i v e l y few good v e t e r i n a r y s c ho o l s such
a s a t Manhattan.
Q.

How d i d t h e d e p r e s s i o n a f f e c t l i f e a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y ?

A.

Oh, t h a t was v e r y b a d , v e r y bad i n d e e d .

I was among t h e many

o t h e r s and u n f o r t u n a t e l y a t t h e p o i n t where I g o t t h e maximum c u t i n

Page 21

my s a l a r y which was 25 p e r c e n t ; t h a t was hard t o t a k e because s a l a r i e s
w er e n ' t any t o o good.

The s a l a r i e s have i n c r e a s e d markedly.

of money t h a t goes f o r s u p p o r t has i n c r e a s e d .

The amount

I d o n ' t want t o sound

a s i f e v er y t h i n g i s w o n d er f u l , because i t i s n ' t .

But a f t e r t h e war c e r t a i n l y

t h e r e was a g r e a t upsurge i n t h e amount o f money t h a t t h e government
and o t h e r i n s t i t u t i o n s a l l o c a t e d t o r e s e a r c h s o t h a t i t w a s n' t a s d i f f i c u l t
t o g e t a government c o n t r a c t f o r r e se a r c h a s i t used t o be b e f o r e t h e
war.

And t o a -c e r t ai n e x t e n t t h a t has c o n t i n ue d e x c e p t t h a t i t i s n ' t

a s e a sy now a s i t was s a y 1 0 y e a r s ago.

And r i g h t a f t e r t h e war I had

v e ry generous r e s ^ a c h c o n t r a c t s so t h a t I had mon ey t o buy n e c es s a r y
a p p a r a t u s , n e ce s s a r y c h e mi c a l s and t h a t t y p e of t h i n g , you s e e .
Q.

And how l o n g d i d t h a t c o n t i n ue ?

A.

That c o nt i n u e d up t o perhaps 10 y e a r s a g o .

I t was g e t t i n g t o

«•

be not a s good 1 0 y e a r s a g o , a s i t was b e f o r e .
Q.

A f t e r t h e war you came back t o t h e U n i v e r s it y and s t a y e d h e r e ?

A.

Yes, more o r l e s s .

I had s e ve r a l r e s e a r ch c o n t r a c t s , and t h e y

were very g e n e r o us ; I had good c o n t r a c t s .
I had an Army c o n t r a c t .

I had a Navy c o n t r a c t and

And i t was much more s a t i s f a c t o r y from my s t a n d p o i n t

because I c o u l d have t e c h n ic a l h e l p which simply w as n ' t a v a i l a b l e u n t i l
i t was p o s s i b l e t o have a c o n t r a c t .
of that sort.

The s t a t e d i d n ' t encourage a n y t h i n g

S t u d e n t a s s i s t a n c e and g r ad u a t e a s s i s t a n c e has a l s o grown

and i t has helped a g r e a t d e a l , i n t e a c hi n g and i n r e s e a r c h .
Q.

From a f t e r t h e war u n t i l a b o ut e a r l y 1970s would you s a y t h a t

was t h e t i m e when t h e r e was t h e g r e a t e s t f i n a n c i a l s u p p o rt ?
A.

Well, I believe so.

Q.

How d i d t h e U n i v e r si t y r e f l e c t t h i s ?

Was t h e r e a d i f f e r e n t

Page 22

f e e l i n g you could c h a r a c t e r i z e , a t t h e U n i v er s i t y i n terms of r e se a r c h
and h i gh e r l e ar n i n g t h a t made t h e d i f f e r e nc e ?
A.

I t h i n k t h a t i s i m p o s s ib l e f o r me t o answer.

I j u s t d o n ' t know.

I t h i n k t h a t we could keep a good many e x c e l l e n t g r ad u a t e s t ud e n t s h e r e
i f we c o u l d s u b s i d iz e

them.

Whereas, some o f t h e e a s t e r n u n i v e r s i t i e s

had b i g endowment fund s which t h e y could use f o r t h a t p u rp o se , n a t u r a l l y
a good g r a d u a t e s t u d e n t would go t o t h e s e o t h er u n i v e r s i t i e s and be s u b s i ­
dized.

We would be g l a d , o f c o u r s e , t o keep them h e r e , b u t d i d n ' t have

any means t o s u pp o rt them.
think.

To a c e r t a i n e x t e n t t h a t ' s s t i l l t r u e , I

Although t o a much, muc h l e s s e r d e g re e t h an i t was i n e a r l i e r

years.
Q.

You a l s o mentioned e a r l i e r y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h C h an c e l l o r

M a l o t t a t t h e time you were a t F o rt D i e t r i c k .
A.

He was very s u p p o r t i v e , I'm s u r e , o f o t h e r r e s e a r c h t h a t went

on and a s f a r a s I was concerned he s u p po r t e d me v e r y g en er o u s l y , n o t
o n l y by money, but by moral s u p po r t .
Q.

What o t h e r r e l a t i o n s h i p s w it h o t h e r C h a n ce l l o r s d i d you have

and what d i d o t h e r f a c u l t y have w i t h any o t h e r C h an c e l l o r s ?
A.

As I t o l d you I had no a d m i n i s t r a t i v e j o b s , and so I was c o n f i n ed

t o t e a c h i n g and

r e s e a r c h. What r e s e a r c h I c o u l d do w it h p r a c t i c a l l y

no money, t h a t was a b o ut t h e way i t was.

A f t e r t h e w a r , when I had good

r e s e a r c h c o n t r a c t s I c o u l d have h e l p , and I c o u l d have w hatever s u p p l i e s
I neede d.

So i n a way i t was a r e l e a s e because I always wanted t o do

r e s e a r c h , b u t when I had a heavy t e a c h i n g l o a d and no money I d i d t h e
best I could.
Q.

It wasn't easy.

So most of y o ur tim e a f t e r t h a t was i n r e s e a r c h ?

Page 23

A.

No.

I s t i l l t a u g ht a f u l l s c h e d u l e .

certain extent.
war.

But i t was eased t o a

I d i d n ' t t e a c h a s heavy a s c he d u l e a s I d i d b e f o r e t h e

In o t h e r words, I had more time f o r r e s e a r c h .
Q.

What was t h e y e a r of your r e ti r e m e n t ?

A.

I t h i n k i t was 19 63.

Q.

When we t a l k e d a b o u t s u pp o r t f a l l i n g o f f , was t h a t 1 0 y e a r s

A.

Yes, money was t i g h t e r .

Q.

Okay, t h a t was a f t e r y o u r r e t i r e me n t though?

ago?

So you s t i l l k e pt

i n touch and knew p r e t t y much what was going on i n t h e department?
A.

To a c e r t a i n e x t e n t , a l i m i t e d e x t e n t , I would s a y .

Doctor

Poretsky comes t o s e e me q u i t e f r e q u e n t l y , he t e l l s me a l l t h a t ' s going
on and of c o u r s e , I ' m i n t e r e s t e d .

A f t e r I r e tu r n e d t o K.U. f o l l o w i n g

t h e war my p r o f e s s i o n al j o u r n a l s simply kept on coming t o me and I would
g i ve them t o Dr. P o re t s k y t o keep up i n our L i b r a r y Department.

When

I was i n New Yor k I became a member o f t h e Harvey S o c i e t y , which i s made
up o f r e s e a r c h people from a l l kinds o f f i e l d s , and t h e y s t i l l send me
t h e i r annual board r e p o r t .

And I ' m g l a d of t h a t , a l t h o u g h I must s a y

I am f a r enough behind t h a t much o f i t i s beyond me now.
Q.

Okay, you had j u s t gone up t o New York.

Were you t h e r e a s a

r es e a rc h e r o r a v i s i t o r ?
A.

I was a v i s i t i n g r e s ea r c h p e rs o n a t t h e R o c k e f e l l e r I n s t i t u t e .

Q.

T h a t was i n 1939?

A.

Yes, 1939 .

And t h e R o c k e f e l l e r I n s t i t u t e has s i n c e become t h e

Rockefeller University.
Q.

Were you e v e r a t R o c k e f el l e r U n i v er s i t y a f t e r t h e war?

Page 24

A.

No.

Q.

When you r e f l e c t back on a l l your i n t e r e s t i n g e x p e r i en c es i s t h e r e

a n y th i n g e l s e t h a t s t a n d s o ut i n your mind?
A.

I d o n ' t know.

Q.

Okay, we t a l k e d abou t how t h e d e p r e s s i o n a f f e c t e d you and t h a t

t h i ng s were v e r y , very bad, t h a t you had t o t a k e a l a r g e c u t i n your s a l a r y .
A.

There was no money , n o t o n l y f o r s a l a r i e s , t h e r e was no mon ey f o r

equipment; d u ri n g t h e war t h e r e was a g r e a t i n c r e a s e i n n e c es s a r y, s o p h i s t i ­
c a te d equipment, but i t was simply t o o expe nsive t o be a v a i l a b l e .

Some

of t h e l a r g e u n i v e r s i t i e s such a s Johns Hopkins, Chicago, and Harvard, had
some f o u nd a t i o n money which c o u l d be s p en t f o r t h o s e t h i n g s , you s e e .

It

was kind o f tough going f o r t h e U n i v er s i t y of Kansas; i t was tough going
for a lot of universities, too.

In t h e Midwest one man s a i d t o me, "Oh.

t h e r e ' s a l a r g e t e r r i t o r y o f u n s c i e n t i f i c work i n t h e Midwest."
t h e way t h e y c ha r a c t e ri z e d t h e Midwest.

So t h a t ' s

We were o u t o f t h e a c t i v e z o n e .

Q.

Now t h a t changed, you s a i d , a f t e r t h e war?

A.

I t changed v e r y much, y e s .

There were chemical s t u d i e s t h a t were

s u b s i di z e d and t h e r e were b io l o g i c a l s t u d i e s t h a t were s u b s i d iz e d by g r a n t s ,
from t h e Army, from t h e Navy and sometimes from some o f t h e b i g b i o l o g i c a l
s u p p l y h o u s e s , such a s E l i L i l l y , t h a t kind o f t h i n g .
Q.

What a b o u t t h e t r ea t m e nt o f women a t t h e U n i v er s i t y f o l l o wi n g t h e

war y e a r s , f o r example?
A.

I d o n ' t t h i n k I know enou gh t o comment on i t i n t e l l i g e n t l y .

Q.

You neve r f e l t a n y t h i n g p er s o n al l y t h e n ?

A.

Oh, y e s I d i d , o f c o u r s e I d i d , but n e v e r enough t o be c r i p p l i n g .

Q.

Could you t a l k a 1 i t t l e b i t a b o u t y o ur e xp e r i e n ce s t h e n , when you

s a i d "Oh, y e s " , t h a t you f e l t something?

Page 25

A.

W e ll , I would r a t h e r n o t c i t e t h e s p e c i f i c i ns t a n c e s .

They were

r e a l and I recognized them a s s u c h , but on t h e whole I p e r s on a l l y was t r e a t e d
very well.
Q.

What o t h e r k i n ds of changes have you w i tn e s s e d a t t h e U n i v e r s it y ?

You t a l k e d a l i t t l e a b o u t changes i n t h e l e g i s l a t u r e i n terms o f t h e Uni­
versity.
A.

Yes, I t hi n k t h e r e was l e s s d i s c r i mi n a t i o n a g a i n s t t h e U n i v e r si t y

i n f a v o r o f Manhattan t h a n t h e r e i s now and

I rather think that grants that

were given a f t e r t h e war and d u ri n g t h e war have diminished and a r e h ar d e r
to get.

They s t i l l c o n t i n u e , s o t h a t t h a t was one good t h i n g t h a t came

o u t o f t h e war.
Q.

What about r e l a t i o n s h i p s between t h e U n i v e r s it y o f Kansas and t h e

community o f Lawrence, d i d you s e e any changes t h e r e ?
A.

I d o n ' t know.

Q.

Any C h a n ce l l o r s s t a n d o u t i n your mind a s having v e r y s i g n i f i c a n t

r e l a t i o n s h i p s w i t h t h e Governor o r a n y t h i n g o f t h a t n a t u r e d u ri n g y o ur c a r e e r
h e re ?
A.

W e l l , i n some ways I t h i n k t h a t when Mr. M a l o t t came, and s i n c e

h i s r e g i m e , t h e C h a n c e l l o r s have been perhaps a l i t t l e more a g g r e s s i v e i n
g e t t i n g money f o r t h e U n i v e r s i t y , b u t I d o n ' t know t h a t ; I r e a l l y would
n o t want t o have t h a t quoted because I know s o l i t t l e a b o u t i t .

It's a

v e ry c on t r o v er s i al t h i n g , you s e e ,
Q.

What do you mean?

A.

Well , i t ' s c o n t r o v e r s i a l i n t h e s e n s e t h a t some p e o pl e would a g r e e

w it h me, o t h e r s would d i s a g r e e and t h i n k t h a t t h e U n i v er s i t y ' s been v e r y
well t r e a t e d , and s o f o r t h .

O t h e r s t hi n k i t h a s n ' t been well t r e a t e d .

Page 26

Q.

Okay.

Why d o n ' t we s t o p h e re f o r now and s a y t h i s w i l l conclude

our f i r s t meeting and perhap s we can g e t t o g e t h e r a g a in .

INTERVIEW 2 - TAPE 1

Today i s January 1 4 , 19841

We're e x pe r i en c in g a much c o l d e r , more

w i n t e r y - l i k e day than we d i d a t o u r l a s t m e et i n g .
meeting w it h Dr. Downs.

T h i s i s my second

We a r e s i t t i n g i n a b e a u t i f u l 1ivingroom i n h e r

home on Alabama S t r e e t i n Lawrence, Kansas.

S h e ' s g o t a f i r e going in

t h e f i r e p l a c e and w e ' r e h e re t o c o n t i nu e t a l k i n g abou t h e r v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g
li fe experiences.
A.

We concluded o u r s e s s i o n l a s t week w i t h t h e comment t h a t we d i d

n o t have any o p po r t u n i t y a t a l l t o t a l k about y o ur n o n- p r o f e s s io n a l a c t i v i ­
t i e s and y o u r i n t e r e s t s , your h o b b i e s , when you e v e r had f r e e t i m e , what
k i nd s of t h i n g s you l i k e t o d o .

Would you l i k e t o t a l k a b o u t some o f t h o s e

t h i n g s now?
A.
i n 1924.

Yes, I suppose s o .

My mother and I l i v e d t o g e t h e r u n t i l s h e d i ed

My b r o t h e r , who n ever m a r r i e d, l i v e d i n Kansas C i t y ; he had a

r e a l e s t a t e b u s i n e s s , and we t r a v e l l e d t o g e t h e r .

A f t e r my m o t h e r ' s d e a t h

we went t o Europe s ev e r a l t i m e s and were v e ry companionable; I enjoyed
t r a v e l l i n g and I suppose t h a t t r a v e l l i n g and g a r de n i n g might be c a l l e d my
hpbbies.

I t r i e d t o e s t a b l i s h a p e r e n n i a l garden a s much l i k e an E n gl i s h

garden a s p o s s i b l e i n Kansas, and t h a t i s a c o n t i n u i n g hobby.
been a person who had many h o b b i e s .

I have n o t

I would s a y perhaps becaus e I s p e n t

so many hours i n t h e l a b o r a t o r y , I r e a l l y d i d n ' t have much t i m e ; I found
t h a t g a r d e n i ng was v e r y r e l a x in g and I enjoyed i t v e ry much s o t h a t I

Page 27

suppose you could s a y t h a t garde ning was m y o n l y hobby.

I ' v e always kept

house, e v e r s i n c e I can remember, sometimes w i t h h e l p i n t h e k i t c h en and
t h e house , sometimes n o t .
Q.

What abou t t h e k i t c h en , i s t h a t something you enjoyed?

A.

Cooking?

Yes, I do p a r t i c u l a r l y i f I have g u e s t s , I ' m n o t much

of a f a n c y c o o k , mostly j u s t o r d i n a r y and p l a i n c o o ki n g .

I have e njoyed

belonging t o a gourmet c lu b from a U ni v e r s i t y and town g r o u p , but t h a t
broke up l a s t s pr i n g and d i d n ' t r e f o r m . . I t was one of t h e U n i v er s i t y
women's a c t i v i t i e s .
Q.

That's about i t as far as outside activities go.

When you were a member o f t h e gourmet group d i d you have t h e o p p o r ­

t u n i t y t o cook a gourmet meal i n y o u r own home?
A.

Yes, what we d i d was t o meet once o r t w ic e a month; we would b r i n g

i n v ar i o u s t h i n g s s o t h a t i t made a comple te menu, made up by t h e one who
a c t e d a s s e c r e t a r y ; we t r i e d v a r i o u s t h i n g s .

We a t one t i m e t r i e d f o r e i g n

cooking and decided t h a t American cooking was a s good o r b e t t e r t h a n any
f o r e i g n c o o k i n g.

That was a v e ry e n jo y a b l e g r ou p .

I was r a t h e r s o r r y

when i t broke up.
Q.

Did you have a f a v o r i t e d i s h , o r any p a r t i c u l a r s p e c i a l t y t h a t

you c o ul d d e s c ri b e ?
A.

No, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o .

were we a t home.

R e a l l y , I w a s n ' t a f a n c y cook a t a l l , n o r

We had good f ood b u t n o t f a n c y .

Q.

What o t h e r k i n ds o f s o c i a l c l ub s were you a member o f ?

A.

Well , t h e r e i s a group h e r e which h a s been going on f o r a g r e a t

many y e a r s .

I t s t a r t e d t o r e a d n o v el s , and t h a t group' i s s t i l l g o i n g .

r e a d a l l o f t h e Forsy th s a g a , and t h a t was v e r y e n j o y a b l e .

We

We met f o r a

s i mp l e s u p p e r and t h e n each one i n t h e group r e a d a c h a p t e r , and t h e n passed

Page 28

t h e book tin t o somebody e l s e who a l s o r e a d a c h a p t e r and i n t h a t way we r e a d
a l l t h e books i n t h e Fors yth s a g a .

Then we s t a r t e d r e a d i ng Vanity F a i r ;

t h a t d i d n ' t r e a d aloud a s well a s some o t h er s and, because t h e group had
changed, we went back t o T r o l l o p e.

I t r e a d s v e r y well aloud so t h a t a g a i n

we read a l l o f t h e s o - c a ll e d B a r c he s t e r s e r i e s and now w e ' r e r e a di n g a s e r i e s
of s h o r t s t o r i e s , and t h a t ' s v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g .

T r o l l o p e was v ery i n t e r e s ­

t e d i n i n h er i t a n c e laws i n England and you g e t a good i d e a of t h e s o - c a l l e d
e n t a i l i n g o f w e a l t h and p r o p e r t y .

We r e a d t h e B a r c he s t e r s e r i e s , we r e a d a

s e r i e s o f T r o l l o p e novels on I r e l a n d and a l l t o g e t h e r you g e t a p r e t t y good
i d e a o f what was c u r r e n t i n approxim ately t h e I 8 6 0 ' s o n .

1 8 5 0 ' s maybe.

And

i n f a c t one of t h e p r o f e s s or s on t h e H il l used one of T r o l l o p e ' s n o v el s a s
an example of a c o u rt proce dure i n i n h e r it a n c e .
Q.

Do you r e c a l l a n y t h i ng you e n j o y r e a d i ng f o r l e i s u r e r e ad i n g ?

A.

Aside from p r o f e ss i o n al r e a d i n g ?

Q.

Yes.

A.

W e l l , t h a t ' s a l i t t l e hard t o answer.

I t h i n k I ' v e enjoyed r e a d i n g

a l l t h e g r e a t n o v e l i s t s , some o f them o f c o u r s e , r e ad v e r y much e a s i e r t h a n
others.

I n my l i b r a r y , i t ' s r e a l l y my g r a n d m o t h e r ' s l i b r a r y , I have Tha ckery

( t h e Dickens s e r i e s went t o somebody e l s e i n t h e f a m i l y ) b u t I have Th ackery
and W h i t t i e r s o t h a t g i v e s you some i d e a of t h e range o f t h a t p e r io d o f
r e a d i ng .

I ' v e r e a d a l o t o f s h o r t modern n o v e l s , b e i n g p a r t i c u l a r l y impressed

w it h them e x c ep t t h a t I must s a y t h a t I enjoyed t h e F o rs y t h s e r i e s v e r y much.
That was a good s e r i e s .
Q.

Did you s ee t h a t on t e l e v i s i o n a s w e l l ?

A.

Yes, we d i d .

As a m a t t e r o f f a c t t h e r e was a small group of abou t

f o u r o r f i v e fami l i e s , Mrs. Greaves and h e r husband were two o f t h o s e i n t h e

Page 29

g r o u p , and we met f o r a l i g h t suppe r and then r e a d and t a l k e d a f t e r w a r d s
and t h a t was v e r y e n j o y a b l e .

I belong t o t h e Twen tieth Century Club and

have been an o f f i c e r t h e r e and I was v er y , v e r y a c t i v e .

I enjoyed being w i t h

a group o f women, and wanted t o keep i n touch w i t h w h a t ' s going on.
Q.

Would you d e s c r i be y o u rs e l f a s having many " f r i e n d s " - one v e r y

close friend?
A.

Not many c l o s e f r i e n d s , but always a f e w, and t h a t c on t i n u e s i n t h i s

group t h a t i s r e a d i n g now.
Q.

The people w i t h whom.you meet - you would c o n s i d er them t o be y o ur

close friends?
A.

Yes, I t h i n k s o .

Q.

Would you be w i l l i n g t o t e l l me wh o t h ey a r e ?

A.

Yes, I ' m n o t u n w i l l i n g .

I d o n ' t want t o mention names t o be pub­

lished.
Q.

I was j u s t t h i n k i n g t h e more we .know a b o u t y o u , t h e person t h a t i s

n o t p r o f e s s i o n a l , makes us know yo u b e t t e r .
A.

Yes, well f o r i n s t a n c e , i n t h i s group Mrs. Lawson now b e l on g s , and

a s you prob ably know, b e f o r e s h e m a r r i e d Dean Lawson s h e was l o n g - ti m e s e c r e ­
t a r y t o t h e C ha n c e l lo r .

She's a very fine person.

Mrs. S t u t z , who used t o

%

l i v e h e r e , now l i v e s i n Topeka; we have two Topeka members, a Mrs. Dickenson
and Mrs. S t u t z .

And Mrs. Genevieve Lupton and Mrs. George B a x te r Smith

belon g t o t h a t group .
Q.

We meet e v er y Monday a ft e r n o o n .

How d i d you each l e a r n o f each o t h e r ' s i n t e r e s t , a r e t h e s e p e o pl e

who have been f r i e n d s o f y o u r s f o r many, many y e a r s ?
A.

T h i s group t h a t r e ad s has been going on f o r , I suppose twenty y e a r s .

Mrs. Carl Nelson was one o f t h e o r i g i n a l members.

The group h a s changed

Page 30

because some have moved away and

so i t ' s i n a way a f l u i d g r o u p .

Now Mrs.

Dickenson and Mrs. Lupton a r e r e l a t i v e l y r e ce n t members and I am t o o .

I

t h i nk I must have j o i ne d t e n y e a r s a g o .
Q.

You would c o n s id er t h a t a r e c e n t member?

A.

Yes.

W e l l , Mrs. Nelson has been dead f o r y e a r s ; s h e was a member

o f t h e o r i g i n a l grou p, I t h i n k .

That must go back t o 1940 , something l i k e

that.
Q.

Now I

s e e on y o u r resume t h a t you were a member o f D e l t a D e l t a D e l t a .

A.

Yes, I was.

I t came on t h e campus ab out 1930 and I was a member o f

t h e o r i g i n a l group t h a t c o lo n i z e d i t h er e .

When I was i n school I was n o t

a s o r o r i t y member.
Q.

You mea n a s an unde rgraduate?

A.

Yes.

Q.

But you orga nized t h i s t h e n when you were a g r a d u a t e s t u d e n t , o r

a s a f a c u l t y member?
A.

As a f a c u l t y member.

Q.

And was t h a t j u s t mainly f o r s o c i a l r e a s o n s t h a t you g ot t o g e t h e r?

A.

Yes, i n a way.

I l i k e d and knew t h e women w ho b e l o n g e d, t h e o r i g i n a l

members o f t h e group h e re and one of t h e members, Mrs. Falkenb urg who i n
Kansas C i t y was v e r y i n f l u e n t i a l i n e s t a b l i s h i n g t h e g r o u p .

Her husband had

designed t h e house t h a t my b r o t h e r and I had bui1d h e r e , s o t h a t * s t h e way I
was a c q u a i n t e d w i t h h e r ; i t ' s been a v e r y n i c e g r o u p .

I t ' s been a changing

group because o f f a c u l t y wives moving i n and o u t , and t h a t kind o f t h i n g .
a l l t o g e t h e r I t h i n k i t ' s been a v e r y , v e r y c l o s e - k n i t g r ou p .

You have t o

e n jo y r e ad i n g a l o u d and you have t o e n j o y r a t h e r c l a s s i c a l s t u f f .
t h i n k we r e ad a n y t h i n g i n t h e way of c u r r e n t l i t e r a t u r e .

I don't

The Forsyth saga

But

Page 31

was a b o u t a s c u r r e n t a s i t g e t s .
Q.

So t h e group t h a t you spoke of e a r l i e r , t h e r e a d i n g g r o u p , were

t h e s e people a l s o T r i D e l t a s ?
A.

No.

Q.

That was more social?,

A.

Yes.

As you may know, t h e r e was a T r i D e l t Chapte r a t Manhattan

and a T r i D e l t c ha p t e r i n Bake r, and Mrs. G e l t ch , who was a t one time Dean
o f Women h e r e , was a T r i D el t a t Baker, and was v e ry e n t h u s i a s t i c a b o u t having
a c h a p t e r h e r e ; and i t g o t t o g e t h e r i n t h a t s o r t o f way.
Q.

Do you have any r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h T r i D e l t " s c u r r e n t l y ?

A.

No, n o t r e a l l y .

I o c c a s i o n a l l y go t o t h e i r meetings and t h e y always

keep i n touch w i t h me, b u t I ' m n o t a c t i v e i n any way.
Q.

Were you a s a f a c u l t y member?

A.

Yes, I w a s, and I was on t h e membership board and used t o go t o t h e

alumni meetings and played some p a r t i n t h a t .

There was a f e e l i n g i n t h e

30s and 40s t h a t s o r o r i t i e s r e a l l y played an a c t i v e r o l e and i t was a b o u t
t h a t t i m e t h a t t h e y changed t h e p l e dg i n g s y st e m , v e r y much f o r t h e b e t t e r
I t h o u g h t , because now any g i r l who wa nts t o belong t o a s o r o r i t y goes t h r ou g h
r u sh and p u t s down h e r p re f e r e n c e o r p r e f e re n c e s and t h e n t h e Dean o f Women's
O f f i c e matches up t h e g i r l s 1 p r e f e re n c e, a n d t h e s o r o r i t y ' s p r e f e r e n c e : s o ' : t h a t
r e a l l y e ve r y g i r l h a s a c h a n c e.

And i t ' s p r e t t y good, I t h i n k .

Before we

had t h a t t h e r e were g i r l s who were simply crushed by n o t g e t t i n g b i d s , and
many o f them went home; t h i s way I t h i n k a l mo s t everybody has a c h a n c e, and
t h a t ' s good.
A.

No u s e b r ea k in g y o u r h ea r t o v er a s o r o r i t y !

I quite agree.

I t h i n k t h a t when we r e f l e c t back on some o f o u r

e x p e r i e n c e s , each o f us would have s e ve r a l people t h a t might s t a n d o u t a s

Page 32

being people who i n f l u e n c ed us i n some way .

Who do you t h in k of t h a t i n ­

f l u e n c ed you and how?
A.

Well , I wanted v e r y much t o e n t e r Medical School - I t h i n k we went

i n t o t h a t somewhat.

And som e of t h e p r o f es s o r s i n pre-m edical and medical

work c e r t a i n l y i n f l u en c e d my c h o i c e o f being a m i c r o b i o l o g i s t i n s t e a d o f
something e l s e .

There were o p p o r t u n i t i e s i n microbio logy t h a t came up i n t h e

Thirties, I think.

Maybe a l i t t l e b e f o r e t h a t , maybe j u s t b e f or e t h e t u r n of

t h e Twenties t o t h e T h i r t i e s , and I d i d n ' t have any d e s i r e t o t e a c h , I wanted
t o do l a b o r a t o r y work.
Q.

You d i d n ' t have a d e s i r e t o t e a c h ?

A.

No, I d i d n ' t .

You s e e I grad uated i n 1 9 15 , and t h a t was an e r a i n

which t h e r e w e r e n ' t a g r e a t many o p p o r t u n i t i e s f o r a woman e x c e pt t e a c hi n g .
I d i d n ' t t h i n k I wanted t o t e a c h i n high s c h o o l , which was t h e usual r o u t e , s o
I went on and d i d h o s p i t a l l a b o r a t o r y work, a s you can s e e from m y resume.
From t h a t I went i n t o m i c r o b i o l o g y .
it is.

I t has been a growing f i e l d , I t h i nk s t i l l

Dr. Sherwood, who was head o f t h e d e p a r t me n t , had r e a l l y developed

t h e i d e a o f a l a b o r a t o r y t e c h n i c i a n , and i t was under h i s regime t h a t t h e f i e l d
d e v el o p e d .

I t has t u r n e d o u t t o be v e r y f r u i t f u l , welve t u r n e d o u t a g r e a t

many s t u d e n t s from t h e departme nt who a r e well q u a l i f i e d , t h e y ' v e done w ell i n
p u b l i c h e a l t h work and i n l a b o r a t o r y work i n g e n e r a l .

I was c a u g h t , a t a t i m e

when i t was j u s t developing i n t o a p r o f e s s i o n .
Q.

Was he yo ur f i r s t C h ai r p e r s o n t he n , Chairman, when you were on t h e

f a c u l t y , o r was Dr. Sherwood t h e Chairman o f t h e Department when you were a
student?
A.

No, he became Chairman of t h e Department a b o u t t h e t i m e I came back

a s a g r a d ua t e s t u d e n t ; he was v e r y e n t h u s i a s t i c i n d e v e l o pi n g t h e i d e a o f

.Page 33

h o s p i t a l t e c h n i c i a n s , and i t was a very a t t r a c t i v e and f e r t i l e f i e l d ; t h e Uni­
v e r s i t y , i n t h e Department o f Micr obiology, has t u r n e d o u t a l o t o f v e r y good
p u b l i c h e a l t h l a b o r a t o r y p eo p l e .
Q.

Did he have any p a r t i c u l a r i n f l u e n c e on y o u r work?

Upon you i n any

o f t h e d i r e c t i o n s t h a t you c h o s e ?
A.

Why, y e s , I s h o u l d t h i n k s o , a l t h o u g h i t would be hard f o r me t o p u t

a f i n g e r on i t .

He was v e r y dynamic and a good t e a c h e r h im s e l f , s o t h a t a s a

m at t e r o f f a c t he became Head o f t h e Department because of t h e d e p a r t u r e o f
Dr. B i l l i n g s , who pr ecede d him.

Dr. B i l l i n g s was a l s o a v e r y f i n e t e a c h e r ;

he wen t t o t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f C a l i f o r n i a .
Q.

You s a i d e a r l i e r t h a t you l i v e d w i t h .your m other h e re i n Lawrence,

and t h a t you s p e n t a l s o a good d e a l o f t i m e w i t h y o u r b r o t h e r .
A.

Yes, he was i n t h e r e a l e s t a t e b us i n e s s i n Kansas C i t y and was fond

o f t r a v e l l i n g ; a f t e r my m o t h e r ' s d ea t h we went t o Europe and made v a r i o u s
j o u r n ey s o f t h a t s o r t and e n j oy e d i t v e r y much.

He, i n f a c t , d i ed i n Fran ce

i n 1 9 6 0 , when we were t r a v e l l i n g ; he had a h e a r t a t t a c k and d i e d .
Q.

That must have been v e r y d i f f i c u l t f o r y o u.

Yes i t was.

I was t h e r e , he came o v er and j o i n ed me i n t h e e a r l y summer;

I had s p e n t t h a t academic y e a r from f a l l t o e a r l y summer a t Oxford where I
had a f e l l o w s h i p ; I had more o r l e s s wound up my wo rk a t Oxford and we were
t r a v e l l i n g i n Europe.
Q.
# A.

May I a s k you i f romance e v e r played a p a r t i n y o ur l i f e ?
W el l , I suppose you c o ul d s a y i t d i d .

n e ve r m a r r ie d .
w i t h men.

Of c o u r s e I came home r i g h t away.

I d o n ' t know e x a c t l y why I

I had s e v e r a l o p p o r t u n i t i e s t o marry and e n j oy e d companionship

I always h a ve , and because o f t h e medical i n t e r e s t and t h e make up

o f t h e depa rtme nts h e re I ' v e always had some c o n n e ct i o n s w it h men, men on t h e

Page 34

f a c u l t y , m a rr i e d and unmarried, and I even f e l t i s o l a t e d .

Because t h e norm

i s t o marry.
Q.

Did you r e a l l y f e e l t h a t s o r t of d i s t i n c t i o n t h e n , between being

married and n o t being married?
A. OH y e s , i t s t i l l e x i s t s .

Not a s much a s i t d i d y e a r s a g o , I t hi n k

because t h e r e ' s so many more m a r r ie d women wh o a r e work ing, whereas i n t h e
e a r l y p a r t of t h e c e nt u r y i t was v e ry unusual f o r a m a r r i e d woman t o work.
A w oman m a r r i e d and she kept house and had c h i l d r e n .
Q

Do you f e e l though t h a t t h e norm, so t o s p e a k , i n fl u e n c e d you i n t h a t

you f e l t you coul d choose one p a t h o r t h e o t h e r , b u t n o t n e c e s s a r i l y both?
A.

Yes, I t h i n k s o .

I t seemed h a r d l y p o s s i b l e , I t h i n k i n t h e e a r l y

1 9 0 0 s , t o pursu e a p r of e ss i o n and y e t a l s o have c h i l d r e n , y e t i t ' s s o common
now t h a t t h e whole t h in g has changed v e ry much.
Q.

How do you f e e l a b o u t t h e changes?

A.

W e l l , Frankly I f e e l sometimes t h a t c h i l d r e n a r e n e g l e c t e d .

Women,

w e l l , I d o n ' t want t o be quot ed on t h i s but I would s a y t h a t i t ' s a s i f women
a r e somewhat g r ee d y , t h e y want a p r o f e s s i o n and a l l t h e t h i ng s t h a t go w i t h i t ,
t h e y want c h i l d r e n , a husband and a household, and i t ' s v e r y hard t o have a l l
t h r e e o r f o u r and d o . i t a l l v e ry w e l l .
work o u t v e r y w e l l .
all those things.

So t h a t I t h i n k sometimes i t d o e s n ' t

I t t a k e s a woman w i t h a g r e a t d e a l o f energy t o encompass
I t h i nk sometimes, i n e v i t a b l y some o f i t g e t s s h or t - c h an g e d .

As I s a y , p r o f e s s i o n a l l y and n o n - p r o f e ss i o n a l l y , I knew a number of men and
c o ul d have m ar r i e d, but my mothe r was a s e m i- i n v a l i d a n d , i f you remember,
t h o s e were d e pr e s s i o n y e a r s i n t h e T h i r t i e s , and i t j u s t d i d n ' t seem r e as o n­
a b l e f o r me t o marry.

I t hi n k I should s a y t h a t I was n e v e r engaged e m o t i o n a l l y

Page 35

very d e e p l y.
Q.

I f you had t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o a d v i s e women of

A.

What would I do?

today. . . .

W e l l , I would have t o s a y t h a t I t h i n k i t depends

very l a r g e l y on your l e v e l o f e n er g y .

I f you a r e well enough o r ga n i z e d and

have good h e a l t h and l o t s o f e n e r g y , you can have e ve r y t h i n g .

You can have

a p r o f e s s i o n , you can have c h i l d r e n , a household; u n l e s s you do have a v e r y
a c t i v e l e v e l o f e n er g y , I d o n ' t t h i n k i t ' s p o s s i b l e t o have e v er y t h i n g w i t h o u t
n eg l e c t i n g something, and i t j u s t depends what i s n e g l e c t e d .

Your husband

n e g l e c t e d , y o ur c h i l dr e n i n a day n u r s e ry , and s o f o r t h .
Q.

Yes, I u n d e r st a n d .

When you t h i n k back on h o l i d ay t i m e s and t h o s e

kinds o f t h i n g s , how w ouI'd we f i n d you spending y o ur h o li d a y s f o r example?
A.

F r eq u e n t l y going some p l a c e o r spending i t w i th f r i e n d s ; my b r o t h e r

and I s p e n t two o r t h r e e Christmases i n New Yor k C i t y , going t o t h e t h e a t e r ;
we always had a f a mi l y C h r i s t m a s , t o o , so t h a t you s e e w i t h o n l y an unmarried
b r o t h e r , t h e r e w a s n ' t much f a m i l y .

We d i d keep i n touc h w i t h c o u s in s b u t

n o t any b i g f a m i l y g a t h e r i n g s , t h e r e we r e n ' t any p e o pl e i n t h e immediate
v i c i n i t y o f Lawrence t h a t were f a m i l y s o i t was m o st l y a q ue s t i o n o f g e t t i n g
t o g e t h e r w i t h f r i e n d s r a t h e r t h a n f a m i l y c o n n e ct i o n s .
were and s t i l l a r e , on t h e e a s t c o a s t m os t l y .

The f a m i l y c o n n e ct i o n s

Another t h i ng t h a t I s h o u l d

mention was t h a t t h e m i c r o b io l o g y s o c i e t y always met d u ri n g t h e h o l i d a y s and
t h a t meant e i t h e r going t o t h e s o c i e t y meetings j u s t b e f o r e Christmas o r l e a v i n g
f o r t h e s o c i e t y meetings immed iately a f t e r C h r i s t ma s , so t h a t p r e t t y w e l l took
care of the holidays.
Q.

I s t h a t something you f i n d y o u r s el f l o o k i ng forwa rd t o ?

A.

Oh y e s , I always e n j oy e d t h e m e e t in g s , and from t h e t i m e I went t o

my f i r s t meetin g i n 1921 I a l mo s t always went t o t h e n a t i o n a l m ee t i n g s .

Page 36

Q.

I would imagine t h a t you made p re s e n t a t i o n s many t i m e s a t t h o s e ?

A.

Yes, I o f t e n p r e s e nt e d a p a p e r .

Q.

How d i d you f e e l about making p r e s e nt a t i o n s - was t h a t e a s y f o r you?

A.

I t became e a s i e r a s t i me went o n .

I can remember t h e f i r s t paper

I p r es e n t e d a t t h e U ni v e r s i t y o f Chicago; I was simply t e r r i f i e d , b u t I g o t
used t o i t .
Q.

As w e ' r e s i t t i n g i n y o ur l i v i n g room I look around and I s e e many

treasures.
A.

Could you t a l k a b o u t some o f them?

Mostly i n h e r i t e d .

I was amused a t a v i s i t o r when I s a i d something

a b o ut t h e g i r l i n w h it e behind t h e c a r t being my g randmother, and t h i s l a d y
s a i d "Y'ou me an t h o s e a r e r e a l peop le?"

I said yes.

That was p a i n t e d i n 1828

i n New Yo rk C i t y when t h e y were l i v i n g i n Ovid, New York.

The boy i n t h e

p i c t u r e - when he grew up was a p p o i n te d by L incol n t o be Consul General a t
F r a n k f o r t , s o my grandmother and t h e l i t t l e g i r l i n t h e c a r t a l l went t o
Europe t o g e t h e r , and t h e y l i v e d a t F r a n k f o r t f o r anywhere from f i v e t o seven
years.

And, of c o u r s e , t h a t was an e x p e r ie n ce r a t h e r d i f f e r e n t from t h e usual

e x p er i e n ce .

My mother spoke German and French a l l h e r l i f e because she l e a r n e d

i t a t t h e t ime t h a t when you p i c k up a languag e and use i t e ve r y day i t s t i c k s
with you.

And s o t h a t i s t h e o r i g i n o f t h a t p i c t u r e .

h o r s e s , t h o s e p o r c e l a i n h o r s e s?

Do you r e co g n i z e t h e

Those a r e t h e L i pi z z a n e r h o r s e s from A u s t r i a ,

from V ienna, t h e r i d i n g school t h e r e .

And t h o s e my b r o t h e r and I bought.

The t h i n g s i n t h i s room a r e mostly i n h e r i t e d e i t h e r from my mother o r g r a n d ­
mother; some o f them w e boug ht.

One branch of t h e f a m i l y were c a l l e d United

Empire L o y a l i s t s r a t h e r t h an t h e R e vo l u t i o n ar y people and t h e y went from
New Yor k S t a t e , where t he y ' d been g r a n t ed l a n d , i n t o Canada; some of t h e
members o f t h e f a m i l y c o n t i nu e t o l i v e i n Canada.
I have l o s t t r a c k o f them.

I have v i s i t e d them b u t

That l i t t l e wash s t a n d o v er t h e r e i n t h e c o r n e r

Page 37

belonged t o t h a t branch of t h e f a m i l y ; we had some s i l v e r spoons t h a t b e ­
longed t o t h a t branch.

So t h a t a l l t h e s e t h i n g s i n t h i s room have more o r

l e s s c o n n e c t i o ns w i t h f a m i l y .

The g i r l i n t h a t p i c t u r e was t h e l i t t l e g i r l

i n t h e c a r t , she was a b o u t 1 6 when t h e p i c t u r e was p a i n t e d ; i t was p a i n t e d
by a man nam ed Duncanson who h as r e c e n t l y been s o r t o f r e v i ve d .

Not e x a c t l y

a p r i m i t i v e p a i n t i n g , because he was b e t t e r t h a n t h a t , b u t I have had c o r r e s ­
pondence w i t h some p eo ple i n t h e E a s t who were i n t e r e s t e d i n Duncanson's
paintings.
Q.

Now t h a t i s t h e g i r l who t r a v e l l e d w i t h y o u r grandmother, i s t h a t

correct?
A.

Yes.

These c h i l d r e n , my g r a n d m o t h e r ' s, t h e g i r l i n t h e w hi t e and

t h e l i t t l e g i r l i n t h e c a r t who grew up and m ar r i e d a m u s i c ia n .

There a r e

v ar i o u s r a t h e r i n t e r e s t i n g f a m i l y s t o r i e s which I have w r i t t e n up and s c a t t e r e d
around t h e f a m i l y .

I n t e r e s t i n g because t h e d o c t o r whom t h a t g i r l m a rr i e d

was ed ucated a t T r i n i t y C o l l e g e , Dubli n; t h e y decided t o immigrate t o t h i s
c o u n t ry a s s o many I r i s h d i d .

They were shipwrecked and were r e s c u e d b u t

l o s t a b s o l u t e l y e v e r y t h i n g t h a t t h ey e v e r had.
attractive.

But I t h i n k t h a t ' s v e r y

I have a p i c t u r e , a companion p i c t u r e r e a l l y , o f my g randmoth er,

b u t t h a t went t o o t h e r c o u s i n s ; I g ot t h a t one and t h i s one and b o t h o f them
have been r e s t o r e d by a man wh o l i v e d n e a r Boston and was v e ry good.
d i d n ' t s p o il them.

He

Some r e s t o r a t i o n s do.

Q.

What was h e r name?

A.

Her name was S a r a h Murphy Cooper.

Q.

Cooper was h er m a r r i ed name?

A.

Yes. And t h a t i s a p ic t u r e o f my g randmother , t h a t oval o n e .

an e a r l y photograph i t ' s p r e t t y good.

For

S h e ' s i n a r i d i n g costume ; s h e went

Page 38

t o a young l a d y ' s academy which l a t e r became V a s s a r .
Q.

You s a i d l a s t week t h a t you remember spendi ng a l o t of time w i th

your grandmother.
A.

Yes, my mother was v e ry f r a i l .

good many y e a r s .

She was n o t i n good h e a l t h f o r a

Not r e a l l y i l l , b u t n o t v e r y well e i t h e r .

Whereas, my

grandmother was v e r y w e l l , v e r y e n e r g e t i c , loved t h e a t e r , and Kansas C i t y
a t t h a t was a good t h e a t e r town, s o we went t o t h e t h e a t e r a good deal t o ­
g et h e r and went s h o p p i n g, went t o Emery B o r d ' s Tea Room, which was a g r e a t
t r e a t and v er y good.

INTERVIEW 2 - TAPE 2

Q.

So you have man y f ond memories o f o u t i n g s w i t h y o ur grandmother?

A.

Oh, y e s .

At t h a t t i m e , around t h e t u r n o f t h e c e n t u r y , Kansas C i t y

was a good t h e a t e r town and I t h i n k t h a t e v er y y e a r d u r i n g Holy Wee k, New
York companies came o u t and played i n Kansas C i t y .
theater.

There was r e a l l y good

I t hi n k t h a t London now i s probably t h e o nl y p l a ce where you s e e a s

much good t h e a t e r a s you d i d t h e n i n Kansas C i t y .

People l i k e Marlow and

S o t h e r n , good a c t o r s and t h e i r f e l l o w a c t o r s came o u t and played i n Kansas
C i t y because a t t h a t t i me t h e New Yo rk t h e a t e r s were c l o s e d d u r i n g Holy Wee k.
Q.

Do you remember y o u r grandmother i n f l u e n c i n g you i n any p a r t i c u l a r

A.

I suppose a s f a r a s d e v e l o p i n g my l o v e o f t h e t h e a t e r and r e ad i n g

way?

and o f langua ge i n g e n e r a l .

She and h e r second husband were v e ry fond of

p l a y i n g anagrams, and i f you have e v e r p l a ye d anagrams you have a p r e t t y
good d e v el o p i n g v o ca b u l a r y.

Page 39

Q.

E x ac t l y .

A.

Or you g e t b e a t en .

She was always i n t e r e s t e d i n what I was r e a d i n g .

She bought me and my b r o t h e r a g r e a t many f i n e c h i l d r e n ' s books.

We had

them u n t i l my b r o t h e r and I moved i n t o t h i s h o u s e , we j u s t decided we had
t o o many books, s o we gave a l l t h e c h i l d r e n ' s books t o t h e C i t y L i b r a r y .
And from time t o time I have w r i t t e n note's t o s e e what happened t o them,
and t h e L i b r a r i a n s a i d "Oh, t h e y j u s t g o t worn o u t t o t h e p o i n t where we
had them rebound a s many t i m es a s t h e y c o u l d be rebo und," t h ey c o n s t i t u t e d
t h e f o u n d a t io n f o r t h e c h i l d r e n ' s 1 i b r a r y down t h e r e .

I was g l a d o f t h a t .

We had up t o p a s t t h e 1960s a s e r i e s o f H a r p e r ' s Weekly and H a r p e r ' s Monthly.
You ma y remember t h e y had t h e Brady p h ot o g ra p h s , so we gave t h o s e t o t h e
library, too.

We've al ways had a g r e a t i n t e r e s t i n r e a d i n g .

My mother d i d

a s well a s my g randmother.
Q.

Can you r e c a l l any f a v o r i t e books from y o u r c h i l d h o od ?

A.

I d o n ' t know, I r e a d a l 1 t h e s o - c a l l e d " c h i l d r e n ' s " book:

Little

Women s e r i e s , t h a t kind of t h i n g , and l a t e r Dickens. My mother was v e r y fond
o f Dickens, more than my grandmother, I t h i n k .
r e a d Dickens t o me a l o u d , whereas my mother d i d .

I d o n ' t remember i f s h e e v e r
And m y mother had a v e ry

good s peak ing v o i c e , a p l e as a n t v o i c e , and s h e r e a d well so t h a t i t was v e r y
customary f o r my b r o t h e r and me t o 1 i s t e n t o my m o t h er ' s r e a d i n g .

She r e a d

a l l s o r t s o f t h i n g s - magazines, newspapers, books.
Q.

Do you r e c a l l p l ay i n g w it h y o u r b r o t h er a s a c h i l d ?

A.

Not v e r y much.

Although we were always good companions he was e i g h t

y e a r s o l d e r t h a n I s o t h a t he had a d i f f e r e n t group o f f r i e n d s from me.
When I was o u t s i d e t h e u n i v e r s i t y we t r a v e l l e d t o g e t h e r and were v e r y compan­
ionable.

He was a l s o a g r e a t r e a d er and e s p e c i a l l y enjoyed t r a v e l l i n g i n

Page 40

England.
Q.

You mentioned b r i e f l y t h a t when you and y our b r o t h e r moved i n t o

t h i s home.
A.

Was t h i s y o u r f i r s t home i n Lawrence?

Oh, no.

We b u i l t a cape cod c o t t a g e a t t h e f o o t of The H i l l .

It's

j u s t s o ut h o f where Mr. Nichols l i v e s ; he l i v e s i n t h e l a s t house on a dead
end s t r e e t a d j a c e n t t o i t .

We bought t h e c o u p l e o f l o t s j u s t s o u th o f t h e

N i c h o l s ' , and b u i l t o u r house.

We had owned a p l a c e i n t h e c o u n t r y , a b o u t

50 a c r e s , and had l i v e d i n v a r i o u s p l a c e s around town.
Q.

Your r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h Mr. N i c h o l s , i s t h a t through t h i s c l u b t h a t

y o u ' r e both a member o f , o r does t h a t go back?
A.

Mr. Nichols?

I d o n ' t know.

Mrs. Nichols belonged t o t h i s T r o l l ope

Club, and we were n e i gh b o r s and f r i e n d s and t h a t ' s a b o u t a l l I can s a y , we
watched t h e i r son grow up from a baby , and o f c o u r s e now h e ' s a l s o a D i s ­
t i n g u i s he d P r o f e s s or .
Q.

Now you and he a r e both a member o f a c l u b , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?

A.

No, j u s t c l o s e f r i e n d s .

belonged t o .

Mrs. Nicho ls belonged t o a c l u b t h a t I

She belonged t o t h e r e a d i ng c l u b t h a t I mentione d.

I belonged

t o Twentieth Century and s h e belonged t o t h e F r i e n ds i n C o u n c i l , s o we d i d n ' t
belong t o t h e same 1 i t e r a r y c l u b .
Q.

Okay.

Can we t a l k f o r a minute a b ou t t h e p r o c e d u r e t h a t you a r e

famous f o r , t h a t we d i d n o t t a l k a b o u t l a s t t i m e i n t h e l a b o r a t o r y , t h e
proc edur e t h a t you i n ve n t e d , I g ue s s .
A.

W el l , n o , I d o n ' t t h a n k t h a t you c o ul d s a y t h a t i t was an i nv e n t i o n .

I t was a d i f f e r e n t use o f a l a b o r a t o r y procedure which was f a i r l y w e l l known
and i t came a b o u t when I needed h e l p from c h e m i s tr y ; a g r a d ua t e s t u d e n t , who
now i s head o f a depar tment a t t h e U ni v e r s i t y o f New Hampshir e, and I would

Page 41

help Dr. B r i c k e l 1 d e v el o p t h i s method.
used .

As Dr.

I t i s a v e r y good method, i t ' s s t i l l

P a r e t s k y would t e l l y o u , he d i d n ' t t h i n k much of having o u r

i d e a p u b l i s h ed i n t h e American Journal of P a t h o l o g y , b u t a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t
i t was ac cept ed a t o n c e .

T h a t ' s a good j o u r n a l , by t h e way, and t h e method

was a t once r e c o g n i ze d a s a r a t h e r simple and e a s y way t o make d i a g n o s i s .
What I d i d was t o l a b e l t h e a n t i b o d y w i t h a f l o u r es c e n t dye s o t h a t when you
looked a t i t under t h e microscope t h e l a b e l ed b a c t e r i a s t o o d o u t because
t h ey were f l o u r e s c e n t .
e x ce p t a p p l i c a t i o n .

T h a t was t h e b a s i s , i t r e a l l y w a s n ' t a n yt h i n g new

The dyes we found t h e formula were f o r s t a b l e d y e s ,

generally they're pretty unstable.

But t h e s t u d e n t helped us t o f i n d t h o s e

i n some o f t h e o l d German p u b l i c a t i o n s ; t h e ' d y e s were n o t p a r t i c u l a r l y
unusual i n t h e s e ns e t h a t t h e y c o ul d be made h e r e .

S o , we had t h e d y e s , we

had t h e b a c t e r i a , we o b t a i n e d a microscope which used n o t o r d i n a r y d a y l i g h t
b u t f l o u r e s c e n t l i g h t ; t h a t made i t a f i e l d where w i t h a g r e a t many b a c t e r i a ,
o n l y t h e ones t h a t had ab s o r b ed t h e a n t i b od y t h a t was l a b e l e d w i t h t h e f l o u r e s
c e n t d y e, were t h e o n l y o n e s t h a t s t o o d o u t .
c e r t a i n b a c t e r i a , you s e e .

So i t was a way o f r e co g n i z i n g

That was what was new a b o u t i t .

Q.

Now t h i s came a f t e r y o u r work on Tular emia?

A.

Yes, q u i t e a few y e a r s a f t e r .

I s u pp o s e , l e t ' s s e e , I went t o F o r t

D i e t r i c k i n 1943, and t h i s was i n t h e p r e ce d i ng seven t o t e n y e a r s .
Q.

In r e a d i ng t h a t a r t i c l e we s e e q u i t e a b i t o f p u b l i c i t y .

A.

Yes, i t c a u g h t h o l d because i t was r e ce i ve d v e ry e a g e r l y , r e a l l y .

I t h i n k t h a t l a b o r a t o r y p e o p l e r e c o g n i ze d i t a s a r e l a t i v e l y s i mp l e and e a s y
way t o r e c og n i z e b a c t e r i a .

And of c o u r s e a n y t h i n g t h a t e n a b l e s you t o r e c o g ­

n i z e t h e c a us e o f an i n f e c t i o n i s w o rt h w h i l e.

So t h a t ' s t h e way i t happened •

The American S o c i e t y o f P a t h o l o g i s t s i s a v er y powerful s o c i e t y and t h e

Page 42

method was published i n t h e i r j o u r n a l .

R e p r in t s went o ut i n an amazing

manner; I was v e r y s u r p r i s e d and I know Dr. P a r e t s ky was t o o .

He thoug ht

t h a t when I wanted t o p u b l i s h i n t h e American J o u r n a l of Pathology t h a t maybe
we w o u l d n ' t g et much r e s p o n s e .

I n st e a d we d i d g e t a l o t and had t o o r d e r a

l o t of new r e p r i n t s , and t h a t kind of t h i n g .
Q.

That must have been v e r y e x c i t i n g .

A.

Yes, i t was.

I t was v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g and a p l ea s u r e a b l e e x p er i e n ce .

But a s you s e e , a s i n so many s c i e n t i f i c methods, t h e r e ' s nothing e s s e n t i a l l y
new, i t ' s a q u e s t i on o f p u t t i n g w e l l known t h i n g s t o g et h e r i n a somewhat
d i f f e r e n t way.

This i s a b o u t what i t amounts t o .

Q.

But t h a t ' s a v e ry s i g n i f i c a n t achievement i n i t s e l f .

A.

Not r e a l l y , because s o much of i t was a l r e a d y known.

The making

o f t h e f l o u r e s c e n t dye went back t o t h e g r e a t e r a o f microbiolog y and c h em i s t r y
i n Germany.

T h i s took p l ac e from t h e 1 8 6 0 ' s and on i n t o t h e 20th c e n t u r y ;

t h o s e dyes were known, and t h i s i s a new use o f an o l d d y e .

And a s a m a t t er

o f f a c t i t took t h e American c h e mi s t a good w h il e t o d u p l i c a t e t h e work
t h a t t h e e a r l y German c h e m i s t had done.

For a long t i m e we had a dye t h a t

was used i n . t h e medium,but t h e American dyes w o u l d n ' t do what t h e German dy e
did at all.

I s t i l l d o n ' t know what i t w a s , but e v e n t u a l l y t h e Americans

were a b l e t o d u p l i c a t e t h a t d y e ; a t f i r s t when t h e r e was i m pe r fe c t i o n i n
t h e d y e , something t h a t we d i d n ' t p u t i n t o o u r s , o r what i t was, I d o n ' t know;
t h a t was t r u e i n a good many c a s es t h a t we b u i l t upon o t h e r s .
Q.

Now, was i t y o u r t h o u g h t s t h a t connec ted t h i s dye t o t h e a n t i b o dy ?

A.

Yes.

I d i d n ' t know whether i t was o r n o t , and t h e n we d i d f i n d a

German p u b li c a t i o n i n which t h e y had a t t a c h e d dyes t o a n t i b o d i e s , s o t h a t
was t h e beginning of t h a t .

Page 43
Q.

Very i n t e r e s t i n g .

I a l s o read i n t h a t a r t i c l e t h a t p e o pl e remarked

t h a t o f t e n remembered you s a y i n g, "where a r e my k e y s" , t h a t t h ey t a l k e d a b o u t
Dr. Cora Downs neve r c a r r y i n g a handbag o r a p u r s e but you had a s a t c h e l i n
which you k e p t y o u r e s s e n t i a l s

f o r t h e d a y , b u t somehow your keys seemed

t o l e a v e you.
A.

Well, that's true.

Q.

So you would a g r e e t h a t t h a t was something t h a t was c h a r a c t e r i s t i c

o f you?
A.

Yes, I suppose s o .

I was always l o o k i ng f o r my keys.

You s e e , we

c o u l d n ' t use t h e e l e v a t o r u n l e s s we had t h e key t o i t a nd , of c o u r s e , my o f f i c e
was c l o s e d , t h e l a b o r a t o r y was c l o s e d ; i t was v e r y v i t a l t o have k e y s .
Q.

Do you r e c a l l any o t h e r a n ec d ot e s o r i n s t a n c e s t h a t you would s a y

a r e somewhat c h a r a c t e r i s t i c o f y o u rs e l f ?
A.

I t . s e e m s t o me i n l o o k i n g back, I was always i n a h u rr y because I

was t e ac h i n g f u l l t i m e , and a t t h a t time t h a t meant anywhere from 5 t o 1 5
hours a s e m e s t e r .

Although c l a s s e s were r e l a t i v e l y small i n m i cr o b i o lo g y ,

s t i l l t h a t was q u i t e a l o a d .

And I was an a dv i s o r a l s o , s o I saw s t u d e n t s

who were n o t n e c e s s a r i l y m i c r o b i o l o g i s t s ; I was busy.
Q.

E a r l i e r when we were t a l k i n g you s a i d t h a t i n t h e e a r l i e r days o f

y o ur c a r e e r t e a c hi n g was n o t something t h a t was i n t e r e s t i n g t o y o u , o r t h a t
you had t h o u g h t a b o u t .
A.

W e ll , a g r e a t many o f t h e women w ho g r a d ua t e d around 1910 - 1915

took c o u r s e s i n e d u c a t i o n and went from t h e U n i v er s i t y i n t o high schoo l
teaching.

You d i d n ' t have any v e r y s o p h i s t i c a t e d micr obiology i n high school

t e a c h in g , n o t much t h a t was m ed i c a l .

I was always i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e medical

s i d e and d i d n ' t want t o j u s t t e a c h g e n era l b i o l o g y i n high s c h o o l .

I wanted

t o go a s c l o s e a s I c o ul d t o Medical S c h o o l , and so t h a t i n f l u en c e d what I
did.

Page 44
0.

But now t e a c h i n g on t h e g r a d u a t e l e v e l , f o r example, would be a whole

d i f f e r e n t e x pe r i e n c e .
A.

I t was v ery e n j o ya b l e ; a l l my c l a s s e s were a t t h e j u n i o r l e v e l o r

above , so I had always i n my c l a s s e s a group who were t a k i n g microbiology
because t h e y wanted t o , and t h a t makes a g r e a t d i f f e r e n c e .

You d o n ' t have

t h e r e l u c t a n t s t u d e n t s t h a t you do i n a g r e a t many r e q u i re d c o u r s es , so I
enjoyed t e a c h i n g v e r y much.

As an under graduate I decided I d i d n ' t want t o

t e a c h high school where you had s o r t of a c a p t i v e a u d i e nc e .
Q.

Could you c ha r a c t e r i z e f o r me what you c o n s i d e r t h a t makes a good

teacher?
A.

Well , i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e I t h i n k you ought t o have a very wide and

deep knowledge of y o u r s u b j e c t , and you ought t o have e n t h u s i as m .
s a y t h a t I ought t o p u t i n a plug f o r t e a ch i n g , i t ' s hard work.

I must
Many people

t h in k i t i s n ' t , b u t i t i s .
Q.

You're r i g h t a b o u t t h a t .

A.

Hard work d o e s n ' t h u r t p e op l e , i t ought t o be acknowle dged a s s u c h .

Q.

But you t h i n k t h e keys a r e a thorough knowledge o f y o u r s u b j e c t and

enthu siasm?
A.

Oh, t h a t ' s a b s o l u t e l y n ec e s s a r y , and t h e d e s i r e t o communicate

enthusiasm f o r t h e s u b j e c t t o t h e group.
Q.

Takes a tremendous amount o f e n er g y .

A.

Takes a g r e a t deal o f e n e r g y ; you have t o l i k e what you d o .

Q.

Yes, you do have t o Tike what you do because you c a n ' t be

e n t h u s i a s t i c about i t i f you d o n ' t .
A.

No., t h a t ' s q u i t e t r u e .

t h a t I had were v e ry good.

And i n g e n e r a l , I found t h e U n i v er s i t y t e a c h e r s

Looking back on i t , I have no complain ts abou t

them a t a l l .
Q.

Do any p a r t i c u l a r s s t a n d o u t ?

Page 45
A.

Well, yes.

For i n s t a n c e t h i s Dr. B i l l i n g s who had l e f t s h o r t l y

a f t e r I came back a s a g r ad u a t e s t u d e n t was a v e ry shy man; he read h i s
l e c t u r e s , he looked down a t h i s c a r d s - - t h a t sounds a b s ol u t e l y u n i ns p i r in g - a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t he was an i n s p i r i n g t e a c h e r because h i s l e c t u r e s were
always s o well o r g a ni z e d .

He was s o knowledgeable t h a t I look back on him

a s a v e r y good t e a c h e r ; I d e s c r i b e him a s a shy man wh o read h i s l e c t u r e s .
You would t h i n k , " W el l , w h a t ' s i n s p i r i n g abou t t h a t " ?

Dr. Sherwood was a l s o

very dynamic, v e r y forward l o o k i n g, because he r e a l i z e d t h a t t h e t i m e was
coming whe n e v er y l a b o r a t o r y , e v e r y h o s p i t a l l a b o r a t o r y , would need t o have
a l a b o r a t o r y t e c h n i c i a n , and he b u i l t t h e depar tment on t h a t .
Q.

Did you e v e r f e e l t h a t any of y o u r p r o fe s s o r s s t e r e ot y p e d you i n

any way because you were a woman?
A.

No, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o .

Q.

They b e l i e ve d t h a t y o u r p ot e n ti a l was a s g r e a t a s anyone e l s e ' s

p o t e n t i a l perha ps?
A.

Well , I d o n ' t know a b o u t t h a t because t h e r e was v e r y few wom en,

a l mo s t none, i n m ed i c i n e , and t h e r e were o n l y a few wo men i n t h e s c i e n t i f i c
courses.

I neve r f e l t t h a t t h e p ro f e s s o r s d i s c r i m i n a t e d a g a i n s t women.

were j u s t kind o f an odd b a l l .

You

,

Q.

Did you e v e r f e e l t h a t you had t o prove y o u r s e l f by being b e t t e r ?

A.

Oh, y e s .

T h e r e ' s no doubt t h a t you had t o be b e t t e r i n o r d e r t o

g a i n t h e same r ec o g n i t i o n ; t h a t was t r u e p r e t t y much throu gh WWII I g u e s s.
You s ee we mentioned b e f o r e t h a t t h e r e was o n l y one a d m i n i s t r a t i v e head o f
a d e pa r t m e n t , and i n a way t h a t t e l l s t h e s t o r y .
Q.

Do you r e c a l l p e r s o n a l l y f e e l i n g n o t n e c e s s a r i l y being d is c r i m i na t e d

a g a i n s t , b u t t h a t you had more s t r e s s on you i n a c h i e v i n g y o ur c a r e e r g o a l s
becau se you were a woman?
A.

Yes, I t h i n k s o ; i t ' s hard t o p i n down but t h e r e was a c e r t a i n amount

Page 46
of d i s c r i m i n a t i o n on t h e p a r t o f some o f t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e o f f i c e r s o f t h e
U ni v e r s i t y .

Against women a s a d m i n i s t r a t o r s .

T h a t , I supp ose, has l a r g e l y

d i s a p pe a r e d , I r e a l l y t h i n k i t d i s ap p e ar e d a f t e r t h e war.
Q.

What do you t h i n k made t h a t happen?

A.

W e ll , t h e women were needed so much; t h e men were gone s o t h ey found

o u t t h a t women could do t h e s e t h i n g s and g r a d u a l l y t h e y j u s t f o r g o t a b o ut
it.
Q.

Did you e v e r have an i n t e r e s t i n being an a d m in i s t r a t o r ?

A.

No.

Q.

The f a c t t h a t t h e o p p o r t u n i t y might n o t have been a v a i l a b l e t o you

Never wanted t o b e .

because you were a woman r e a l l y d i d n ' t b o t h e r you t h a t much?
A.

Yes, i t d i d when I came t o t h i n k a b o u t i t , and t h a t was v e r y l a t e

I s u p p o s e , i n my c a r e e r b u t when I t hi n k a b o u t i t I t h i nk t h e r e ' s s t i l l a
good deal of p r e j u d i c e and t h a t ' s a p i t y ; i t ' s a t h i n g t h a t perhaps i s i n e v i t a b l e
because men g e t t o g e t h e r; t h e y e n j o y each o t h e r ' s company, and t h e y ' r e not
i n h i b i t e d a s t h e y a r e i f a woman i s p r e s e n t , and t h a t has an i n f l u e n c e .
Q.

So even when you t h o ug h t abou t i t l a t e r i t s t i l l i s v e r y bothersome

t o you?
A.

Somewhat, c e r t a i n l y .

Q.

Were you e ve r a p a r t i c i p a n t i n any e f f o r t s t o g e t some o f t h o s e t h i n g s

changed?
A.

No, I d o n ' t know t h a t I d i d .

That goes back s o f a r .

There was some

s o r t o f an o r g an i z a t i o n t h a t . w a s headed by Miss G a l l o o , who was a

woman of

g r e a t s t r e n g t h , a s c h o l a r , and a high-bre d French woman; we were r e a l l y lucky
t o have h e r .
ment.

She was one t h a t we mentioned e a r l i e r t h a t was head of a d e p a r t ­

I became p r e s i d e n t o f what was an e a r l y kind o f o r g a n i z a t i o n o f women

who were i n t e r e s t e d i n g e t t i n g t h e v o t e f o r women, t h a t was p r e t t y e a r l y ,

Page 47
about 1918 o r somewhere a l o n g t h a t t i m e .

Kansas a l r e a d y had given t h e v o t e

t o women by t h a t t i m e , b u t t h e c o un t r y i n g e n era l had n o t , and Madame G alloo
was very i n t e r e s t e d i n s p r e a d i n g t h e word t h a t t h e y should have t h e v o t e .
I was i n f l u en c e d by h e r and r e a l i z e d t h a t t h a t was t h e g r e a t e s t d i s c r i m i n a t i o n .
L a t e r more o f t h e c h a n c e l l o r s , I ' d r a t h e r n o t mention names, but one of t h e
c h a n c el l o r s a f t e r Dr. Sherwood's r e t i r e m e n t , wanted t o c o n s i d er me a s head
o f t h e department and I ' m s o r r y t o s a y t h a t Dr. Sherwood s a i d "No, i t w o u l d n ' t
do a t a l l ; t h e men i n t h e department w o u l d n ' t want i t " .

Not a n yt h i n g a g a i n s t

me p e r s o n a l l y , but a g a i n s t me a s a woman, a s head.
Q.
A.

You knew a b o u t t h a t a t t h e t i m e .
No, I d i d n ' t , n o t c l e a r l y ; i t w a s n ' t u n t i l l a t e r t h a t I heard t h e

whole s t o r y .

In some ways i t d i d n ' t m a t t e r ,

I was d e ep l y engaged i n my r e ­

s e a r c h , I . l i k e d i t , I d i d n ' t have any e x p e r i e n ce a c t u a l l y i n a d m i n i s t r a t i o n
and d i d n ' t p a r t i c u l a r l y want i t but I thou ght t h a t t h a t was an u n f a i r s i t u a t i o n .
But a s f a r a s I was c o n c e r n e d, I d i d n ' t c a r e much.
Q.

Did i t make you f e e l i n any way d i f f e r e n t a b o u t y o ur c o l l e a gu e s once

you l e ar n e d t h a t , once you heard t h a t s t o r y ?
A.

W el l , I t h o ug h t t h e y were s t u p i d .

Q.

In working w i t h them would you have p r e d i c t e d t h e y would have mixed

f e e l i n g s , o r was t h a t something t h a t was a s u r p r i s e ?
A.

No i t w a s n ' t a s u r p r i s e .

members p r e t t y w e l l ,

The department was small and I knew t h e

I had a p r e t t y good i d e a a b o u t what t h e i r f e e l i n g w as ,

and i n g e n e r a l i t was wo men s o r t o f encoaching on t h e i r t e r r i t o r y .
Q.

Did any of them e v e r t a l k t o you a b ou t t h i s d i r e c t l y o r was i t some­

t h i n g t h a t was s k i r t e d around? '
A.

No I never t a l k e d , a s f a r a s I can remember, I n e v er t a l k e d a b ou t

it directly.

Page 48

Q.

Did you have s i t u a t i o n s where you r male c o l l e a g u e s wotild a s k your

o p i n i o n o f t h e l a b work t h a t was going o n , would t h e y r e g a r d your o p i n i o n
e q u a l l y a s t h e y would a n o t h e r male c o l l e a g u e f o r example?
A.

No, I t h i n k i n t h e e a r l y days t h ey d i d n ' t , I t h i n k t h e g e n e r a l f e e l i n g

was t h a t t h e women were f a i r l y i n f e r i o r ; t h a t was r e f l e c t e d i n some of t h e
c a s es where I knew t h a t t h e men had a h i gh e r l e v el of s a l a r y .

I t was shown
f

t h a t d i s c r i m i n a t i o n was t h e r e , i n s a l a r y a s well a s i n r a n k .
Q.

That would be on t h e s o - c a l l e d " i n s t i t u t i o n a l " l e v e l ?

A.

Yes.

Q.

I ' m t h i n k i n g more on t h e personal o r d a y - t o - d ay l e v e l .

For example,

i f someone was working on something t h a t yoif knew something a b o u t , would he
s e ek you o u t f o r a s s i s t a n c e .
A.

You know, I d o n ' t t h i n k u n t i l t h e war y e a r s t h a t t h e y would.

whole t h i n g was s o dominated by t h e male c o n t i n g e n t s .

The

T h a t was t r u e o f t h e

s o c i e t y o f m i c r o b i o l o g i s t s and i n Kansas U n i v e r s it y a s a whole; Kansas i n s t i ­
t u t i o n s a s a whole were d is c r i mi n a t e d a g a i n s t b e c a u se , I may have t o l d yout h a t one man s a i d t h a t t h e re were a g r e a t many m i l es o f u n s c i e n t i f i c t e r r i t o r y ?
Q.

No?

A.

W e ll , i n t a l k i n g t o me a b o u t o u r d e p a r tm e n t , and we had q u i t e a number

o f g r ad u a t e s who were g e t t i n g i n t o good l a b s and d o i n g good work, he s a i d
" W e l l , o f c o ur s e Kansas i s i n t h e middle o f g r e a t l y u n s c i e n t i f i c t e r r i t o r y . "
And s o i t was.

I t was h a rd e r t o g e t money g r a n t s , much h a r d e r , t h a n i f you

were conne cted w i t h Harvard o r Johns Hopkins, o r some o f t h e good E a s t e r n
s c h o o l s ; t h a t ' s where t h e money went u n t i l WWI.

That i s d i s c r i m i n a t i o n , n o t

s o much i n d i v i d u a l , b u t t h e whole U n i v e r s i t y .
Q.

What do you t hi n k t h a t d is c r i m i na t i on was r e a l l y based on?

Page 49

A.

Based on t h e woman's r o l e a s a homemaker.

Q.

No, I mean a g a i n s t Kansas U n i v e r s i t y a s an i n s t i t u t i o n .

a b o u t two k i n d s o f d i s c r im i n a t i o n .

We're t a l k i n g

One a g a i n s t women and one a g a i n s t Kansas

a s opposed t o Johns Hopkins o r Harvard.
A.

Well , of c o u r s e t h e i r whole a d m in i s t r a t i o n of t h e b i g E a s t e r n s c ho o l s

was s o well e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t I t h i n k t h e people t h a t g i v e g r a n t s simply d i d n ' t
know what was going on i n t h e West, i n t h e middle West, and i n some ways t h e y
w e r e n ' t v e r y i n t e r e s t e d i n f i n d i n g o u t u n t i l t h e war; t h a t made a g r e a t d i f ­
f e r e n c e because t h en a l a r g e group o f people from Ohio and Wisconsin g o t i n t o
a c t i v e work i n t h e war and i t d i d change t hi n g s c o n s i d e r a b l y .

INTERVIEW 3 - TAPE 1

Q.
having

L a s t week we t a l k e d a l i t t l e abou t t h e p hi l o s o ph i c a l t h o u g ht s on
o n e ' s b i o g r a p h y , w r i t t e n o r d es c r i b e d.

We t a l k e d a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t

t h e p r o s and c o n s , I c e r t a i n l y u n d e r s t an d some o f y o ur f e e l i n g s a b o u t what
we s a i d .

You d i d mention t h a t you e x p e r i e n c e d some ups and downs.

Maybe

we c o u l d s t a r t on t h a t n ot e t o d a y s in c e we've t a l k e d a l o t a b o u t y o u r p r o f e s ­
s i o n a l c a r e e r and t h i n g s y o u ' v e acco mplished, w e ' v e t a l k e d a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t
y o u r personal l i f e , b u t when you mentioned t h e word ups and downs I was v e r y
t

c u r i o u s abou t e x a c t l y what you meant.
A.

W e l l , t h a t i s hard t o s a y .

There were t i m e s a f t e r I came back t o

t h e U n i v e r s it y when t h e r e was a q u e s t i o n , p a r t l y a b o u t s a l a r y , p a r t l y a b o u t
r a n k , whethe r I was r e c e i v i n g t h e same s a l a r y and t h e same rank a s t h e men
i n t h e d e pa r t m e n t .

G e n e r a l l y t h a t was r e s ol v e d v e ry much t o my s a t i s f a c t i o n

becaus e t h ey d i d g i v e me t h e same rank and i n some c a s e s more s a l a r y t h an

Page 50

some of t h e men i n t h e d e p a r t me n t , s o t h a t g e n e r a l l y I t h i n k t h a t I was
t r e a t e d v e r y f a i r l y , b u t t h e r e was a q u e s t i on about s e x t h e r e .

In g e n era l

I d o n ' t know what t h e f a c u l t y i s now, but i n general t h e f a c u l t y t h e n was
more male than fema le.

To a c e r t a i n e x t e n t I t h in k t h a t many o f t h e women

on t h e f a c u l t y were somewhat d i s c r i mi n a t e d a g a i n s t .

Now t h a t ' s of c o u r s e

a very touchy s u b j e c t because you d o n ' t know whethe r t h e d i s c r i m i n a t i o n i s
j u s t on t h e s u r f a c e o r whet her t h e r e were r e a l t h i n g s i n back o f i t .
Q.

What was your f e e l i n g a b ou t t h a t , d i d you f ee l - it was more on t h e

s u r f a c e o r through i n s t a n c e s you might have h a d, t h a t i t was r e a l l y deeper?
A.

I t h i n k on t h e whole i t was t h e p r e j u d i c e .

Not a l l of i t , but some­

t i me s .
Q.

Can you c i t e any examples o r i n s t a n c e s?

A.

No, I d o n ' t t h i n k I c a n , t h e o n l y t hi n g t h a t I s a i d t h e l a s t t i me

we t a l k e d was t h a t only one woman was head of a d e p a r t me n t .

Of c o u r s e we

now have two V ice C h a n c el l o r s who a r e women; t h a t would have been almo st un­
t h i n k a b l e i n 1920.
Q.

Now y ou s a i d when you came back a f t e r t h e war . . .

A.

I came back i n 1945.
i

Q.

*

What e x a c t l y happened t h a t t h e r e was some q u e s t i o n s a s t o y o u r s a l a r y

and y o u r rank?

What were you t h i n k i n g a b o u t when you s a i d t h e r e was a q u e s t i o n

in your salary?
A.

There was a q ue s t i o n o f s a l a r y r a t h e r e a r l y on b u t when t h e depar tment

had t o f i l l Dr. Sherwood's p l a c e a f t e r he reach ed t h e r e t i r e m e n t a g e .

It

was a q u e s t i o n o f whether people nominated a s being l o g i c a l t o be t h e adm ini­
s t r a t i v e head shou ld r e c e i ve a l a r g e s a l a r y .

I d o n ' t know t h a t t h i n g s have

changed s i n c e I was a c t i v e , b u t a t any r a t e t h e r e were p e o p l e i n t h e depart ment
who t h o u g h t t h a t a woman was h a r d ly q u a l i f i e d t o be a d m i n i s t r a t i v e head o f
t h e d e p a r t m e n t.

That was immateri al a s f a r a s I was concerne d because I never

Page 51

wanted t o do a d m i ni s t r a t i v e work, and of c o u r s e t h a t maybe e n t e re d i n t o i t ,
I d o n ' t know.
Q.

Now y ou s a i d t h a t t h e r e were people who t h o u g ht t h a t women were n o t

s u i t e d f o r an a d m i n i s t r a t i v e p o s i t i o n , how d i d t h ey l e t t h o s e f e e l i n g s be
known, d i d t h e y come r i g h t o u t and s a y i t ?
A.

Oh, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o , I t h i n k i t was one o f t h o s e t h i n g s , c o v e r t ,

would you s a y ?
Q.

So you f e l t t h a t on t h e q u e s t i o n of you p o s s i b l y being an a d m i n i s t r a ­

t o r , you s a y you w e r e n ' t r e a l l y i n t e r e s t e d i n i t anyway.

What about on t h e

l e v el o f y o u r work, i n terms o f y o u r o p i ni o n s , y o u r f i n d i n g s , your t e c h n i q u e s ,
how woul d you s a y you were t r e a t e d a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s by yo ur male c o l l e a gu e s ?
A.

Very w e l l , t h e r e w a s n ' t any q u e s t i o n abou t t h a t ; i t must have been

abou t t h e end o f t h e war t h a t we g o t s e v e r al new mem bers i n t h e department
and t h e y were v e ry s u p p o r t i v e o f my work.

Very s u p p o r t i v e .

And o f c o u r s e

i t was d u ri n g Murphy's C h a n c e l l o r s h i p t h a t I was a p po i n t e d t o t h e D i s t i n g u i sh ed
P r o f e s s o r s h ip , and I was v e r y much s u r p r i s e d .

I d i d n ' t know t h a t my name

was b e i n g c o n s i d er e d and I was g r e a t l y s u r p r i s e d t h a t t h e y a p p o i n te d me.

I

d o n ' t know whether t h e r e was any p a r t i c u l a r d i s c u s s i o n abou t t h a t ; t h e r e must
have b e en , b u t I d o n ' t know a b o u t i t and I c a n ' t t e l l you now wheth er t h e r e
a r e any more D i s t i ng u i s h ed P r o f e s s o r s hi p s given t o women o r n o t .

Deanell

Tacha i s i n a t o p a dm i n i s t r a t i v e j o b , o f c o u r s e .
Q.

There a r e o t h e r women t h e r e a s w e l l .

D i d n ' t you once mention t h a t

Frances Horowitz was i n touc h w i t h you?
A.

Oh y e s .

Q.

S h e ' s head o f r es e a rc h and g r a d u a t e s t u d i e s , I d o n ' t r e a l l y know

her t it l e .

T h a t ' s two wo men t h a t a r e i n high p o s i t i o n s r i g h t now.

Page 52

A.

There may be o t h e r s , I d o n ' t know.

Q.

That has d e f i n i t e l y changed.

But i t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g t o me i n terms

of what your own person al e x p e r i e n ce s were from two s t a n d p o in t s .

One i s ,

we t a l k e d abou t d i f f e r e n t t i m e s, d i f f e r e n t e r a s whose t h o u g h t s were v e ry d i f ­
f e r e n t a b o u t women, and two, because you were so d is t i n g u i s h e d i n y o u r work
t h a t I was wondering i f your e x p e r ie n c e s a s a woman wou ld be some.'wtat t y p i c a l
of how p r o f e s s i o na l women wou ld have been t r e a t e d i n t h o s e time s?
A.

T h a t ' s hard t o say because i f I were t o f i g h t f o r d i s t r i b u t i o n o f

women i n microbiology I would have t o say t h e y were d i s t i n c t l y m i n or i t y and
why t h e y a r e I d o n ' t know e x a c t l y e x ce p t t h a t i t ' s somewhat a s i t was i n medi­
c i n e a t t h e t u r n of t h e c e n t u ry ; t h e r e were r e l a t i v e l y few d o c t or s o f medicine
who were women, whereas now t h e r e a r e a g r e a t many; I shou ld judge t h a t t h e y
probably f i n d i t l e s s d i f f i c u l t t o g e t i n t o Medical S c h o o l .
Q.

P e r s o n a l l y , i n your d a y - t o - d a y l i f e i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t , was i t some­

t h i ng t h a t you were always aware o f , t h e f a c t t h a t you were a woman, t h a t
you were d i f f e r e n t ?
A.

No, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o .

I t was a q u e s t i o n

There w e r e n ' t many f e e l i n g s o f t h a t s o r t .

o f you d i d your j o b , and I was alw ays v e r y i n t e r e s t e d i n

r e se a r c h s o t h a t I t r i e d not t o n e g l e c t my t e a c h i n g .

I was very i n t e r e s t e d

i n r e s e a r c h and I t r i e d t o t a k e tim e o u t f o r t h a t , s o i t l e f t v e r y l i t t l e
time f o r a n y t h i n g e l s e .
Q. When you mentioned t h e s o - c a l l e d ups and downs does a n y t h i ng e l s e
come t o mind?
A.

No, I c a n ' t p u t my f i n g e r on i t e x a c t l y .

Q.

S o r t o f t h e perso nal triumphs and d i s a pp o i n t m e n t s , t h e r e must have

been some.
A.

Yes, t h e r e w e re , of c o u r s e.

R e a l l y p a r t o f i t was f i n a n c i a l becaus e

Page 53

i t w as n ' t u n t i l a f t e r WWII t h a t t h e r e were a v a i l a b l e l a r g e g r a n t s of money,
and c e r t a i n l y t h e kind o f work t h a t I d i d r e qu i r e d expe nsive equipment and
a good deal of j u s t what you might c a l l household h e l p , a q u e s ti o n of washing
d is h e s and keeping t h i n g s c l e a n , t h a t kind of h e l p was needed but i t was a l m os t
n o n e x i st e n t when I went back t o t h e department i n 1918.
able.

Money wa s n o t a v a i l ­

A f t e r WWII t h e g r a n t s were e a s i e r t o o b t a i n , t h e y were v e r y generous

and you could g e t manual h el p and t e c h n i c a l h e l p because you could s p e ci f y
t h a t you wanted s c h o l a r s h ip s , a s s i s t a n t s h i p s f o r i n d i v i d u a l s , s o t h a t i t a l l
t o g et h e r was an e a s i e r p i c t u r e t h a n i t was b e f o r e WWII.

I unde rstan d now

t h a t because o f t h e c u r r e n t f i n a n c i a l squeeze i t ' s more d i f f i c u l t t o r e p l a c e
e x pe n si v e equipment and t h a t t y p e of t h i n g .

When I came back a f t e r t h e war

I had t o have a g r e a t d e a l o f s p e c i a l glassware and s p e ci a l equipment which
was e xp e n s iv e, b u t t h e g r a n t s were given t o me; t h e s t a t e never would have
p r o vi d e d t h e s e i t em s .
Q.

So i t was a f e d e r a l t h i n g t h e n ?

A.

Yes, f e d e r a l , n a t i o n a l i n s t i t u t e s t h a t h e lp e d , and maybe r es e a rc h

g r a n t s , t o o , t o i n v e s t i g a t e some t h i n g s i n Alaska.

Money was mu ch e a s i e r

t o g e t t h an i t had been b ef o r e ; I understand i t ' s t i g h t e n e d up a g a i n and i t ' s
now d i f f i c u l t t o g e t i t .
Q.

How long d i d t h a t s o r t o f p r o s p e r i t y l a s t , a f t e r t h e w a r , u n t i l a b o u t

when would you s a y money was r e a l e a s y t o g e t ?
A.

I t h i n k i t l a s t e d up u n t i l t h e t i m e I r e t i r e d i n 1967.

W e ll , you

s e e I worked a f t e r t h a t f o r a b ou t f o u r y e a r s ; t h e g r a n t was handled by t h e
Endowment A ss o c i a t i o n and t h e r e was no d i f f i c u l t y a t a l l a s l o n g a s we s t i l l
had approved what I asked f o r , I c o u l d go r i g h t on and h i r e a t e c h n i c i a n ,
h i r e whoever was n e c es s a r y , buy g l a s s w a r e, buy equipmen t and s o f o r t h .

There

were no, s t ri n g s a t t a c h e d t o t h e money a t a l l e x c e p t , o f c o u r s e , t h e overhead

Page 54

from t h o s e g r a n t s went t o t h e U n i v e r s i t y , and j u s t o f f t h e recor d I sometimes
f e l t t h a t was a good d e a l o ut o f my g r a n t .
Q.

You s a i d you worked f o r f o u r y e a r s a f t e r your r e t i r e m e n t , what were

you doing t h e n?
A.

I was j u s t f i n i s h i n g r e se a r c h w i t h f l o u r e s c e n t a n t i b o d i e s .

Q.

So even though you r e t i r e d from t e a c h i n g you were s t i l l a c t i v e i n

your r e se a rc h ?
A.

I should s a y t h a t I was g r a t e f u l t o t h e depart ment and t o Dr. P a r e t s k y

f o r j u s t a l l ow i n g me t o go on w i t h my r e s e a r c h l a b o r at o r y j u s t a s I had j u s t
before I retired.

Now t h e r e have been i n s t a n c es when a p r o f e s s o r who r e t i r e d

had no p l a c e i n t h e way of an o f f i c e , I d o n ' t know a b o u t t h e l a b o r a t o r y p e o p l e
but t h e r e have been c a s e s where t h e r e was no p l ac e f o r a r e t i r e d f a c u l t y member
t o have an o f f i c e .
Q.

Have you missed y o ur r e s e a r c h?

A.

No, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o .

I t w a s n ' t t h e kind o f t h i ng t h a t I c o ul d do

on a p a r t t i me b a s i s and I was ready t o l ea v e i t . My s c i e n t i f i c j o u r n a l s came
t o me and I gave t h o s e t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
the literature after I retired.

I d i d n ' t even t r y t o keep up w i t h

I have a l o t o f o t h e r t h i n g s t o d o , v o l un t e e r

work and r e c r e a t i o n t h i n g s which I have n e v e r been a b l e t o d o , so I keep busy
u n l i k e some of t h e f a c u l t y who were v e r y unhappy a b o u t n o t going on w i t h t h e i r
work.

I ' v e come t o a s t o p p i n g p o i n t ; i t ' s t i m e t o s t o p .
Q.

What e l s e ?

A.

I was t h i n ki n g l a s t n ig h t how d e s i r a b l e

i t would be i f t h e r e was

a p l ac e where r a t h e r d e t a i l e d i n t e r v i e ws o r w r i t e - u p s c o u l d be had f o r p a s t
f a c u l t y members; we've had a good many d i s t i n g u i sh e d people on t h e f a c u l t y
and I d o n ' t know whether t h e r e i s any r e c o r d of them.

About two o r t h r e e

y e a r s ago someone came and i n t e r vi e w e d me a b o u t Dr. I d a Hyde; she must have

Page 55

r e t i r e d somewhere a l o n g a b o u t t h e t i m e when I grad uated i n 1915.

They were

w r i t i n g a biography o f h e r , s h e was q u i t e a d i s t i n g u i s he d p h y s i o l o g i s t .

There

a r e o t h e r s on t h e f a c u l t y now and o t h e r s who have r e t i r e d who r e a l l y ought
t o have some kind o f a biography w r i t t e n abou t them s o t h a t i t would be on
r e co r d .

We've had a number o f d i s t in g u i s h e d f a c u l t y and i t r e a l l y would be

d e s i r a b l e t o have a r e c o r d .
Q.

I c o u l d n ' t a g r e e w i t h you more.

A.

Whether i t would be used o r n o t d o e s n ' t m a t t e r , r e a l l y .

Q.

What k i n d s o f t h i n g s would you t h i n k would be i m po r t a n t i n i n t e r ­

viewing t h e r e t i r e d f a c u l t y , n o t n ec e s s a r i l y f o r m a t b u t b a s i c a l l y t h e i r c a r e e r s ?
A.

Well , y e s I s h o u l d t h i n k t h a t t h e main r e c o r d would be a r e co r d o f

t h e work i n t h e i r s p e c i a l t y .

I t comes t o mind t o me, Dr. E.H. T a y lo r was

a v e ry d i s t i n g u i s he d i n t e r n a t i o n a l l y known ma n i n h i s f i e l d which was e s s e n ­
tially reptiles.

That seems a v e ry narrow f i e l d , b u t i t w as n ' t r e a l l y , he

a l s o was co ncerned i n s e c r e t work.

He was v e r y , v e r y d e e p l y invol ved i n t h a t

and I d o n ' t suppose t h a t t h e r e ' s any r e c o r d o f i t a t a l l .
t o him once when m y work was
going t o be d e c l a s s i f i e d ? "
been.

I know t h a t I s a i d

d e c l a s s i f i e d , " D r . T a y l o r , when i s y o u r work
He s a i d , "Never".

And a p p a r e n t l y i t neve r has

S t i l l s e c r e t , you s e e , b u t i t was v e r y i m po r t a n t work.
Q.

I d e f i n i t e l y a g r e e t h a t t h i s would be i m po r t a n t t o g e t t h e s e r e c o r d s .

A.

C e r t a i n l y i t would and I hope t h a t maybe you c o u l d do i t .

Q.

I c o u l d do some o f i t , I would c e r t a i n l y e n j o y i t .

A.

W e l l , you s e e someone has t o s e e t h e need and s t a r t i t g o i n g , and

I t h i n k i t would go o n .
Q.

I t h i n k y o u ' r e r i g h t and I ' l l do what I c an .

You have t h e most

engaging s m i l e , your whole f a c e , y o u r e y e s , e v e r yt h i n g j u s t l i g h t s up whe n
you s m i l e .

Page 56
A.

W e ll , I enjoyed my work and I enjoyed o u t s i d e i n t e r e s t s t h a t I had;

we were a f a m i l y of r e a d e r s , s o t h a t ' s always a r e s o u rc e you know.

I'm always

a l i t t l e s o r r y f o r t h e people who d o n ' t have enough o u t s i de i n t e r e s t s t o be
happy a f t e r t h e y r e t i r e ; t h e r e a r e a g r e a t many of them.
Q.

Have you e v e r thou ght abou t having y o u r biography w r i t t e n ?

A.

No, I h a v e n ' t , r e a l l y .

an a u t ob i o gr a p hy .

I know t h a t Dr. F r i t z He i d e r has j u s t f i n i s h e d

Have you heard of Him?

H e ' s a r e t i r e d p r o f e s s o r o f psychology.

He's an A u s t r ia n who cam e t o t h i s c o u n t r y d u r i n g t h e H i t l e r d a y s , b u t I d o n ' t
know o f anyone e l s e who has e i t h e r w r i t t e n an autob iogra phy o r had one w r i t t e n .
I understand t h a t Leona Baumgartner, who ha s been commissioner of t h e C i t y
of New York, now r e t i r e d .

I understan d somebody i s w r i t i n g h e r biography .

INTERVIEW 3 - TAPE 2
Q.

What f e e l i n g s do you have abou t s t u de n t e v a l u a t i o n o f f a c u l t y ?

A.

They used t o send a q u e s t i o n n a i re around t o s t u d en t s t o e v a l u a t e

f.

professors.

I t h i n k s t u de n t s have a r i g h t t o e va l u a t e p r o f e s s o r s , b u t t h e

t r o u b l e comes n o t w i th t h e e v a l u a t i o n t h a t t h e s t u d e n t s make but i n a s s es s i n g
t h e v a l i d i t y o f t h e i r remarks; t h a t would be up t o some o f t h e a d m i n i s t r a t o r s
who lo ok o v e r t h e r e p o r t s .
Q.

How e l s e can you . . .

A.

How can you g e t a t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n ?

Q.

Yes, and how can you e v a l u a t e someone's t e a c h i n g performance o r a b i l i t i e s

For examp le, p r o f e s s o r s now a r e e va l u a t e d on t h r e e a r e a s , r e s e a r c h , t e a c h i n g
and s e r v i c e t o t h e u n i v e r s i t y .

Were t h o s e t h e c r i t e r i a f o r y o u r e va l u a t i o n ,

f o r t e n u r e , advancement, rank?
A.

I d o n ' t r e a l l y t hi n k t h a t t h e s t u d e n t s would know a n y t h i ng a b o ut

t h e s e r v i c e t h a t t h e p r o fe s s o r s d i d .

Page 57
Q.

No, t h ey w ou l d n ' t know abou t t h e s e r v i c e and t h e y probably w o u l d n ' t

know m uch abou t t h e r e s e a r c h .
A.

No, proba bly n o t , b u t some of them would.

I d o n ' t s e e any reaso n

why t h e s t u d e n t s should know a n y t h i n g a b o u t s a l a r i e s .

T h a t ' s taken c a r e o f

i n t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n such a s t h e American A s s o c i a t i o n of U n i v er s i t y P r o f e s s o r s .
Of c o u r s e , I always belonged t o t h a t and I t h i n k t h e y ' v e done some v e r y good
things.

But t h e r e a r e some c u r i o u s i n j u s t i c e s i n t h e way t h e s t a t e pays

teachers.

I d o n ' t know w h eth er y o u ' v e run a c r o s s t h a t o r n o t b u t f o r q u i t e

a w hi l e a few o f .us were i n t e r e s t e d i n t r y i n g t o do something about i t b u t
n e v er g o t anywhere.

And t h e s t a t e f o r a long t i m e d i d n ' t have any p e n si o n s .

F i n a l l y a pension system f o r f a c u l t y was s e t up b u t t h e p e n s i o n s were c u t
o f f j u s t a s soon a s a f a c u l t y member d i e d , s o t h a t n o t h i n g was l e f t f o r t h e
family.

Very poor pension system t h a t would do t h a t .

Now t h e pens ion system

i s b e t t e r t h a n i t used t o be becaus e t h e f a c u l t y pay i n some and t h e s t a t e
pays i n s o n s ; i t i s r ea l r e g u l a r , i n s u r a n c e .

When I was t e a c h i n g and t h e n

a f t e r I r e t i r e d none of t h e f a c u l t y p a id i n a n y t h i n g toward t h e i r p e ns i o n .
They g o t h a l f o f t h e i r f i n a l s a l a r y ; i t was c o m pl e t e l y i n a d eq u a t e.

For i n s t a n c e ,

a f a c u l t y member might r e t i r e w i t h a s a l a r y o f $2500 a y e a r , b u t t h e n a s l o n g
a s s h e l i v e d , s h e g o t h a l f o f t h a t , b u t when t h a t f a c u l t y member d i e d , t h e
p e n s i o n was comp letely c u t o f f .
p en s i o n.

F a cu l t y now have s o c i a l s e c u r i t y p l u s a s t a t e

The amount o f t h e p e n si o n now depends upon t h e number o f y e a r s p a i d

i n and how muc h; t h i s i s a r e g u l a r pension system o f c o u r s e and t h a t ' s a l l
right.

Well t h a t ' s n e i t h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e a s f a r a s I ' m concerned o f c o u r s e ,

b u t I t h ou g h t t h e o l d p l a n was v er y i n e q u i t a b l e .
Q.

What were some o f t h e o t h e r f e e l i n g s you remember on t h e p a r t o f

t h e f a c u l t y a b o u t t h e s t a t e , t h e s t a t e employees?

Page 58
A.
we d i d .

I t was always a q u e s t io n of whether Manhattan would g e t more t h a n
T h a t ' s p e r en n i al I g u e s s ; i t s t i l l goes o n .

And of c o u r s e i n some

ways e x as p e r a t i n g a s i t i s i t was u n d e r s t an d a bl e because a f t e r a l l Kansas
i s an a g r i c u l t u r a l s t a t e .

Manhattan n a t u r a l l y would g e t more money and s t i l l

does.
Q.

Was t h e r e e v er any t a l k o f t h e union when you were t e a c h i ng ?

A.

Not t h a t I know o f .

Q.

How w ould you have f e l t abou t t h a t ?

A.

W e l l , I would hope t h a t i t w a s n ' t n e ce s s a r y t o u n io n iz e t h e f a c u l t y

but I reco gnized t h a t t h e u n io n s , a r e simply i n d i s p e n s a b l e i n o u r c i v i l i z a t i o n ,
i f t h e y ' r e p r o p e r l y managed t h e y a r e a very good t h i n g ; on t h e whole I would
hope t h a t t h e y would be f r e e o f crime and i f t h e y a r e f r e e o f crime and do
what t h ey should I t h i n k t h e y ' r e i nd i s p e n s a b l e .
Q.

Can you t h i n k t h e f a c u l t y of t h e U n i v er s i t y o f Kansas would b e n e f i t

from t h a t t y pe of an o r g a n i z a t i o n o r n o t , o r would t h e y l o s e ground?
A.

I d o n ' t know, I j u s t d o n ' t know wheth er t h e y would g ai n o r l o s e .

Q.

Do you r e c a l l any of t h e days o f s t u d e nt a c t i v i s m when you were t e ac h i n g?

For example i n t h e 60s when t h e s t u d e n t s were demanding d i f f e r e n t kinds o f
programs and s o f o r t h ?
A.

What a r e y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n s o f t h o s e t i m es ?

I knew what was .going on b e c au s e , o f c o u r s e , i t was mu ch p u b l i c i z e d ,

b u t w it h i n o u r department and my c l a s s e s I d i d n ' t have any r ea c t i o n s a t a l l
to i t.

I t was r a t h e r a unique s i t u a t i o n because o u r s t u d e n t s had a l l chosen

a p r o f e s s i o n , t h e y were e i t h e r going I n t o medicine o r t h e y were going i n t o
l a b o r a t o r y work i n microbiology and t h a t we d i d n ' t have any s tu d e n t s below
t h e l e v e l o f a j un i o r made a g r e a t d i f f e r e n c e .

They had chosen what t h ey

wanted t o d o , t h e y were a s a whole p r o f e s s i o n a l l y o r i e n t e d and n o t v e r y much

Page 59
concerned w i t h t h e s t ud e n t movement and I t h i n k t h a t made a g r e a t d i f f e r e nc e .
We were s o r t of o u t s i d e t h a t and glad t o be o f c o u r s e , a t l e a s t I was.
Q.

Were any o f your f r i e n d s involved o r d i d you have any conn ectio ns

w i t h i t i n any way a t a l l ?
A.

No, I d o n ' t t hi n k s o .

I d o n ' t remember, a l l I know i s t h a t I r e a d

t h e papers and t h a t was a b o u t i t .

Of c o u r s e when I thought about some of

i t , I thought some of t h e f a c u l t y were very mistaken i n t h e way t h e y egged
on t h e s t u d e n t s , r e a l l y f o s t e r e d s t u d e n t u n r e s t .
Q.

In what s e n se ?

A.

Oh, I d o n ' t know; t h e r e were some people who were always kind o f

s t i r r i n g up t r o u b l e .

There were q u i t e a number o f them, many of them have

l e f t t h e u n i v e r s i t y a s f a r a s I know.

Another t h i n g i s t h a t we had a p r e t t y

s t a b l e s t u d e n t body, I t h i n k , when you c o n si d e r some of t h e e a s t e r n s c ho o l s
and how m uch turmoil i s t h e r e a l l t h e t i m e ; we d o n ' t have t o deal w i t h t h a t
kind o f t h i n g and of c o u r s e t h a t ' s lucky and a good t h i ng i n my mind.

I think

t h e s t u d e n t s ought t o be concerned abou t t h e world a f f a i r s , b u t i n l o t s o f
ways t h e y h a v e n ' t reached t h e p o i n t where t h e y can have a balanc ed judgement
about i t .
Q.

Did you e v e r in any of t h o s e days have any f e a r a b o u t y o u r p e r s o n a l

s a f e t y i n terms o f walking a t n i gh t o r any of t h o s e kinds o f t h i n g s ?
A.

Oh y e s , I t hi n k t h a t ' s a r ea l q u e s t i o n t h a t has grown worse i n t h e

l a s t 1 5 y e a r s p r o ba b l y .

I t h i n k t h e r e ' s a r ea l d i f f i c u l t y , and i t ' s t o o bad

b u t I d o n ' t know what can be done a b o u t i t e x c e p t p u t more p o l i c e on p a t r o l ,
b u t o f c o ur s e you c a n ' t be a l l o v e r t h e p l ac e a l l t h e t i m e .

I d o n ' t know

r e a l l y b u t i t seems t o me t h a t proba bly crim e on t h e campus has n o t r i s e n
anymore t h a n i t has i n t h e community a t l a r g e .
o u t and l e a v e t h e d o o r s unlocked.

At one t i m e , we used t o go

We d o n ' t do t h a t anymore, t h e r e ' s been

t o o much o f b u r g l a r i e s , t h e r e ' s a paragraph i n t h e J o ur n a l World e v er y n i g h t

Page 60
about b r e a k - i n s , minor c r i m e s , and s o f o r t h so t h a t t h a t has i n c re a s e d but
on t h e o t h e r hand, t h e s t u d en t p o pu l a t i o n has i n c r e as e d s o much t h a t i t ' s
hard t o s e p a r a t e them.

I suppose t h a t t h e people i n s o ci o l o g y a r e q u a l i f i e d

to evaluate those things.
Q.

I s u s p ec t t h e y keep r e c o r d s and t r y t o f i g u r e why.

I was wondering t o o though a t t h e t i me s of t h e s t ud e n t a c t i v i s t s

p e r i o d i f t h e r e was even more o f i t t h a n t h e r e i s now?
A.

Yes, I t h i n k s o .

Q.

I came t o Lawrence a f t e r t h a t but I have heard about t h a t t i me and

i t sounded l i k e i t was v e r y v e r y de i s i v e .
A.

W e l l , i t was.

Some o f t h e f a c u l t y members t h a t I mentioned, because

they entered into i t with the students,
r e a l l y d i d n ' t h e l p t o end i t .

i n a d vi s e d l y I t h o u g ht i n some c a s e s ,

Of c o u r s e t h a t ' s an o p i n i o n o f my ow n abou t

which people would s a y , "Wel l, s h e ' s o l d , s h e ' s c o n s e r v a t i v e , and t h a t ' s what
you'd expect."

The o t h e r s a r e l i b e r a l s and t h ey want c h a ng e , but of c o u r s e

sometimes t h e changes were f o r t h e b e t t e r , sometimes t h ey w e r e n ' t .
Q.

Do you c o n s i d er y o u rs e l f t o be c o n s e r va t i v e ?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Were you an Alf Landon f a n ?

A.

Not p a r t i c u l a r l y , no.

Q.

Wasn't he a r e pu b l i c a n ?

A.

Yes.

I ' d s a y I was a r e pu b l i c a n c o n s e r v a t i v e .

I t ' s been i n t e r e s t i n g t o me t o s e e t h e i n c r e a s e i n t h e democr ats

i n Kansas because i t used t o be t h a t t h ey were n o t t h e dominant p a r t y .

We

used t o s a y t h a t Lawrence was p r o t e s t a n t , r e p u b l i ca n and . c o n s e r v a t i ve .

There

were v e r y few b l a c k s , v e r y few f o r e i g n e r s .

There were p r o t e s t a n t s , t h e r e

were r e p u b l i c a n s , and t h e y were c o n s e r v a t i v e .
Q.

When do you t hi n k i t s t a r t e d t o chan ge.

Page 61
A.

During t h e t r o u b l e s i n t h e 6 0 s .

I t came t o a head .a t t h a t t i m e and

I d o n ' t know wh at t h e m i xt u r e o f r a c es i s now b ut we have many more f o r e i g n
s t u d e n t s on t h e H il l than we d i d have and g en e r a l l y I t h i n k t h a t ' s good because
o u r p o p u l a t i o n i n Kansas tend ed t o be p r o v i n c i a l ; i t was a good t h i ng f o r
them t o s e e o t h e r s who w ere d i f f e r e n t .

I t ' s n o t always p l e a s a n t , I ' v e heard

t e r r i b l e s t o r i e s about f o r e i g n e r s keeping house.
from a small i n l a n d , c o n s e r v a t i v e town.

But t h a t ' s a b i g change

We had v e r y l i t t l e c r i m e.

And I

h a v e n ' t e v e r made up m y mind w hethe r i t ' s a good t h i n g t o have men and women
t o g e t he r i n one d o r m i to r y .
Q.
it.

What do you f e e l a b ou t t h a t ?

I t s t a r t e d j u s t when I l e f t s ch o o l , s o I never r e a l l y e x p e r i e n c e d

I t h i n k i t c o ul d be a p o s i t i v e t h i n g i f i t ' s o r ga n i z e d r i g h t and handled

well.
A.
right.

Well , o f c o ur s e members i n t h e same f a m i l y c e r t a i n l y g e t a l o n g a l l
I d o n ' t s ee much o p p o s i t i o n t o i t but t h e n whenever you have a l o t

o f young people t o g e t h e r t h e r e ' s bound t o be t r o u b l e .

And i t c o s t s money

t o p o l i c e o u r campus s i t u a t i o n , t o o . .
Q.

I , th i n k t o o t h a t a l o t o f s t u d e n t s over 1 8 a r e immature.

But I t h i n k

f o r a mature s t u d e nt who's i n t e r e s t e d i n h i s s t u d i e s and i n making good r e l a t i o n s
w i t h good f r i e n d s , then I t h i n k i t s okay.
A.

I t ' s hard t o h a nd l e .

Q.

But I t h i n k i t ' s a l s o hard t o handle when you have groups o f t h e

same s e x t o g e t h e r , sometimes t h a t i s a problem.
A.

T h a t ' s a c o n t i n u i n g problem i n t h e s o r o r i t y .

W el l , I ' l l t e l l you

a s f a r a s t h a t goes t h a t was a l o t e a s i e r t o handle when you d i d n ' t have money.
In a s o r o r i t y house with 7 5 g i r l s i n i t , y o u ' r e bound t o have t r o u b l e o f v a r i o u s
k i n d s , and t h e y ' v e a l l grown t o be s o b i g and s o f a n c y .

Page 62

Q.

And somewhat i n f l u e n t i a l i n u n i v e r s i t y l i f e .

A.

Yes.

very g r e a t l y .

Some t h i n g s i n t h e s o r o r i t y system I t h i n k have been improved
I d o n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t t h e r e ' s s o many g i r l s who a r e hear tbroken

because t h e y d o n ' t r e c e i ve a b i d , because a s I b e l i e v e i t i s now you put down
your p re f e r e n c e , and your p r e f e r e n c e i s matched w i t h t h e l i s t t h e s o r o r i t y
t u r n s i n so t h a t p r a c t i c a l l y anyone wh o wants a b i d g e t s o n e , maybe n o t i n
t h e s o r o r i t y she w a nt s , b u t i n one of them anywa y.

You s e e t h a t ' s a l o t b e t t e r

than i t was wh en t h e g i r l s went through r u s h , v e r y e x p e n s i v el y d r e s s e d - now
t h a t ' s a change t o o , t h ey d o n ' t have t o have such e l e g a n t c lo t h e s a s t h e y
used t o .
Q.

I f t h e y d i d n ' t g e t a bid t h a t was j u s t t o o bad.
I remember we t a l k e d a b o u t t h i s l a s t week and you t o l d me a b o u t y o u r

e x p e r i e n ce s w i t h T r i D e l t .
A.

Yes, and now t h e y ' r e p u t t i n g an e x t e n s i o n on t h e house s o I d o n ' t

know ho w ma ny t h e y ' r e going t o have i n i t but i t ' s j u s t l i k e running a h o t e l .
Q.

W e ll , I ' v e enjoyed o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n t o d a y , w e ' ve t a l k e d a l i t t l e

b i t more a b o u t i s s u e s , I t h i n k .
A.

Yes, we d i d .

Q.

I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e you would l i k e t o s a y f o r t h e r e c o r d , your

f e e l i n g s a b o u t a ny t h i n g , y o ur t h o u g h t s , y o ur t r i u m p h s , y o u r c a r e e r ?
A.

I d o n ' t know.

W e l l , a b o u t my f a m i l y , my mother and f a t h e r were b o t h

e d u c a t e d p e o p l e , my f a t h e r a medical man, my g randmother was a w r i t e r , she
had a l o t o f p u b l i c a t i o n s , you may have r e a d something a b o u t h e r because s h e
was t h e f i r s t woman t o be a p po i n t e d Regent.
t e l l e c t u a l , and so was m y m o t h e r .

So s h e was v e r y 1 i v e l y and i n ­

My f a t h e r d i ed when he was 4 2 ; he g r a d u a t e d

from t h e U n i v er s i t y o f Michigan Medical S c h o o l .

I ' v e been t h a n k fu l t h a t I

had a c c es s t o people i n t h e f a m i l y who were e d u c a t e d , and I t h i n k t h e y have
b e n e f i t e d me v e r y much.

When Mrs. Horowitz came down t o i n t e r v i e w me, but

Page 63

d i d n ' t f i n i s h t h e i n t e r v i e w , s h e asked me i f I had an y o p p o s i ti o n s i n my
d e s i r e t o go t o K.U. and I s a i d "Wel l, no, n o t a t a l l , "
t h i n g f o r me t o d o .

We were a l l r e a d e r s .

i t was an a c c e p t e d

There i s o n l y a r e l a t i v e l y small

number o f books i n my s t u d y , a l l t h a t ' s l e f t o f a v e r y good l i b r a r y .

My

grandmother on my f a t h e r ' s s i d e had a l i b r a r y , my m o t h e r ' s f a m i l y had a l i b r a r y
and we had a l o t o f books.

When we mo ved i n t o t h i s house my b r o t h e r and I

gave them t o t h e C i t y L i b r a r y .
Q.

And I was s o g l a d t h a t t h e y were u s ed .

So you t h i n k a l o t a b o u t t h e marvelous i n f l u e n c e on y o u r l i f e from

y o u r f a m i l y , from your v e ry unusual f a m i l y , I might a d d .
A.

Why y e s , I suppose i n some ways i t was unusual and i t c e r t a i n l y made

a g r e a t d i f f e r e n c e i n t h e way I t h o ug h t abou t t h i n g s and where I l i v e d .

I

was t h a n k f u l t o have such a n o r m a l , c a r i n g f a m i l y and anybody w ho does o u g h t
t o be t h a n k f u l .
Q.

W e ll , I thank you f o r t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n .

A.

I t ' s a l i t t l e h a r d t o t a l k a b ou t o n e s e l f .

up i n t e a c h i n g .
v e r y much.
Q.

I was v e r y much wrapped

I t h o ug h t I w o u l d n ' t b e , b u t once I g o t i n t o i t I 1 i k e d i t

I r e a l l y e n j o y e d t h e world o f t e a c h i n g .

I t sounds l i k e you d i d and i t sounds l i k e you k e p t a r e l a t i o n s h i p

w i t h many o f y o u r s t u d e nt s .
A.

Yes, I d i d , and I d o .

Every Christ mas I g e t many c a r d s and I t r y

t o answer them, b u t I d o n ' t always g e t them do ne.

I do have a r a t h e r c l o s e

r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h many o f them and t h a t ' s been v er y r e wa r d i n g .

INTERVIEW 3 - TAPE 3

Q.

We were t a l k i n g combining m a rr i a g e w it h c a r e e r ?

A.

Yes, I have a f e e l i n g t h a t somebody l o s e s o u t , I d o n ' t know q u i t e

Page 64

who i t i s . b u t sometimes i t ' s t h e c h i l d r e n and sometimes i t must be because
you o b v i o u s l y c a n ' t do e v e r y t h i n g .

I d o n ' t know whether i t ' s a l l t o g e t h e r

a. good t h i n g t o t r y t o combine m ar r i a g e, c h i l d r e n and a c a r e e r , b u t t h a t w i l l
have t o be worked o u t by t h e g e n e r at i o n t h a t does i t .
Q.

I t h i n k i t ' s a r e a l c h a l l e n ge .

A,

I have kept house a l l my l i f e , I always had a home and cooked and

made meals and t h a t kind o f t h i n g , b u t of c o u r s e m a r r i a ge and c h i l d r e n d i d n ' t
e n t e r i n t o i t and by t h a t token i t was e a s i e r than i t would have been o t h e r ­
w i s e.
Q.

Do you have any r e g r e t s a l on g t h o s e l i n e s ?

A.

Oh, sometimes, y e s .

But I p u t t h o s e behind me, a f t e r a l l you c a n ' t

l i v e o v e r w h a t ' s p a s t and I t h i n k a s a whole I ' v e had a s a t i s f a c t o r y l i f e .
Q.

C e r t a i n l y rewarding.

A.

Yes.

I ' m g l a d t h a t I could have a home and n o t j u s t an i n s t i t u t i o n ­

a l l i f e , I shou ld n o t have wanted t o l i v e i n a room a l l my l i f e because one
of my g r e a t i n t e r e s t s has been i n g a r de n in g .

I ' v e always had a g a r d e n , I ' v e

always been a b l e t o e n j o y t a k i n g c a r e o f a garden and I would have mi ssed
t h a t v e ry much i f I h a d n ' t had i t .

But when you look around my room h e r e

f o r i n s t a n c e , you s e e a g r e a t many f a m i l y t h i n g s t h a t have come do wn t o me
from one a nc e s t o r o r a n o th e r .
Q.

I t r e a s u r e them and t a k e p l e a s u r e i n them.

I c e r t a i n l y can s e e why you would, I know t h a t we s p e n t some t i me

l a s t week t a l k i n g abou t them, t h e p i c t u r e s and t h e c o r n e r p ie c e o v er t h e r e .
A.

These t a b l e s and o t h e r c a r d t a b l e s t h a t d a t e b a c k , o h , from t h e 1 8 3 0 ' s

somewhere a round t h e r e .
Q.

Well you have h a d , from my p e r s p e c t i ve anyway, v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g

experiences.

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A.

Yes, I ' v e had my s h a r e .

Q.

And I d o n ' t t h i n k i t ' s o v e r w i t h y e t , I'm g l a d t o s e e you e n j o y i n g

so many t h i n g s y o u ' r e doing now.
A.

Yes.

Q.

I do thank you f o r s h a r in g some of y o ur l i f e .

A.

I ' m g l a d I could and when you go o ver t h i s , i f t h e r e ' s a n yt h i n g I

can add I ' l l be glad t o .
Q.

Yes.

A.

I f t h e r e ' s any l i s t o f people t h a t you would l i k e t o have t h a t I

t h i nk would be w orth r e c o r d i n g d o n ' t h e s i t a t e t o a s k me.
Q.

I would l i k e t o .

A.

There have been some v e r y d i s t i n g u i s h e d p eo p l e , v e r y unusual p e o p l e .

Now o f c o u r s e you know t h a t o u r biolo gy b u i l di n g i s c a l l e d Snow H a l l .

I

suppose Snow was one o f t h e e a r l y and v e r y d i s t i n g u i s h e d e n t o m o l o g i s t s , n o t
o n l y of t h i s c o u n t r y , b u t i n t e r n a t i o n a l l y .

So t h a t a l l o f t h a t goes i n t o

t h e h i s t o r y o f t h e U n i v e r s it y and I t h i n k some s t ud e n t s d o n ' t pay any a t t e n ­
t i o n t o i t and t o o t h e r s ; i t would e n l a r g e t h e i r i d e a s of t h e U n i v e r s i t y .
Q.

Yes, t o understan d t h e i n s t i t u t i o n you need t o know something a b o u t

t h e p e op l e .

I would l i k e f o r you t o t h i n k a b o u t t h a t and I c a n ' t promise

t h a t something will, be done w i t h t h a t b u t i t would be i n t e r e s t i n g t o r e ad
i t and do i t .
A.

People ask me a b o u t Dr. Ida Hyde and I was s u r p r i s e d t h a t anyone

knew t h a t I would know h e r , b u t t h e r e was a r e c o r d somewhere t h e y had found
t h a t I was an a s s i s t a n t i n t h e l a b o r a t o r y .

So t h e y came t o me, i t was somebody

doing a m a s t e r ' s d e g re e on h er l i f e who wanted t o know what I knew a b o u t h er
and what I remembered a b o u t h e r and t h a t kind o f t h i n g ; I t h i n k i s v e r y w o r t h ­
while.

I d o n ' t know what o t h e r u n i v e r s i t i e s have i n t h a t r e g ar d , b u t p r o -

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bably a good deal of t h e . o l de r u n i v e r s i t i e s have a p r e t t y good r e co r d .
D i st i n g u i s h e d g r a d u a t e s , f a c u l t y , and so f o r t h .