- This program provides a forum for women to speak out on issues, which concern them. Listeners will have an opportunity to participate in the program by calling the KANU open line at 864-4530. And now here's our moderator for our "Feminist Perspective" KU Dean of Women, Emily Taylor. - Good evening. Welcome to "Feminist Perspective." This weekly radio broadcast is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, a program and information service of the Dean of Women's Office, 220 Strong Hall. Also located in this center is a women's library. This library contains vast amounts of information, news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, and books pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We should like to invite you to come in and browse or take advantage of the lending library. That's in 220 Strong Hall. The materials in this library are as valuable for men as for women since sex role definitions and stereotypes affect both sexes. The topic of our discussion tonight is "Rape: Attacks on Women." We're in a rather unusual position, one of our guests, Pat Henry, a senior in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences is here with me, our other two participants, Judy Haddad the director of Gertrude Sellards Pearson, Corbin Hall and the assistant director of North College and her guest a police woman from the Kansas City Police Department have not yet arrived. We have asked that they come in as soon as they do. So I suspect that Pat and I will do a lot of talking in the meantime. And we would remind you as the announcer has said that it's quite all right to come in at any time by calling the open line 864-4530, 4530, if you're out of town, it's 913-864-4530, we would be happy to respond to any question you might care to raise. I thought, Pat, we might start tonight with a little factual information about what rape is in the first place. I understand that the police department does list three classifications of rape; forcible, statutory and attempted. Forcible rape being defined as to carnally know and ravish a woman against her will, and statutory rape, intercourse with a woman under 16. This accounts for, and attempted rape is obvious. The statutory rape accounts for only 10% of the total rapes, and attempted rape accounts for another 15% of the total. So the great majority of it, obviously, is a forcible rape. Listed by the FBI as one of three violent crimes against persons, the other two being murdered and aggravated assault. Rape is, of course, the least reported crime, as we know, and yet the figures indicate that there's less done about this most common violent crime against a person then either of the other two. Another of our guests is arrived Judy Haddad. What about our guests from Kansas city, have you heard from her? - No, I haven't. - Well, let's hope she finds the studio because we'd like very much to have her join us tonight. We're just going over a few of the facts that have been provided by such groups as the FBI and police departments and the National Commission on the Causes of Violence, who've made some reports to about what actually happens. What's your understanding of the kinds of myths that are believed about the rapists themselves. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? Yes, either one of you. Or you might name one myth and Pat you with another one. - One of the basic myths usually surrounds the whole rape question is that the man is aroused. Like he sees a woman in hot pants or not wearing a bra or something and he immediately just has to attack this woman, he can't help himself. And it's been found in several studies that I've read that this is not the case, that in a majority of the rapes are planned. And some of these, in one study, it says that 3/4 of the cases were premeditated. In another one I've read it said 90% of the cases were premeditated. - I understand it does make a difference in the reporting of these, whether you're talking about the gang rapes, which 90% are planned or what do they call them, dual rapes or pair rapes where-- - Pair rapes with two and gang rapes when more than that-- - Yeah, where two men rape the same woman and that this is also a very high percentage. you'd call it as planned-- - Out of the total number it would be-- - 83% of those and that leaves 58% for the single rapes which doesn't leave an awful lot to fall into the category that you're talking about, that's so commonly believed. Now when you say they can't help themselves, do you mean that's the to be taken as an excuse for-- - Oh, yes, definitely. It's just, the poor man is physically around and he just has to relieve himself. Another one that goes along with that is the myth that rape is always committed by strangers. And, again, that is a pretty much out of line. A good number from a 1/3 to 1/2, depending on what study you see, of the cases the victim knew the offender ahead of time. And in many cases they're members of their own family, excluding father or brothers. - Well, if you put the family and acquaintances together you'd have-- - About 1/2 of them. - At least 1/2 of the cases wouldn't you? - Yes. - So the chances are just as great then being attacked by or raped by someone that you know as there is by a perfect stranger. - Strangers. Well, and this is a particular problem in prosecution in that police do not like to become involved in family matters, , basically. - So regardless of how bad the crime is, of course, they certainly become involved in family matters in the event of murder don't they? - Oh, certainly. - But I guess aggravated attacks you might have something of the same kind of a problem. - I'd like to mention an article that was extremely interesting, that was in "Redbook," September, 1972 written by Martha Lear. And the title of the article is, "What can you say about laws that tell a man, "if you rob a woman, you might as well rape her too, "the rape is free." In essence, what she is saying, that it is so difficult through the courts to prove when a woman has been raped, for her to prove it, that they need so much corroborating evidence. - And the burden of proof is on the person who's a attesting. - Exactly. In in this particular instance, that if the offender steals her watch then they can catch him on theft, but there's not so much a chance that they'd be able to know for sure that she were raped. - And there's always the possibility of assuming that she's barely trying to get at him for stealing her purse by accusing him of something else as well. - There was one quotation in there by a detective on the New York force who said, "Isn't it ridiculous that a woman would point "at some perfectly strange man "and say that he had attacked her and raped her, "if in fact he had not," that there just wasn't any justification for that at all. There are some policemen, police women who are trying to work toward a more humanitarian way of helping rape victims, but there are still so many judges and policemen and many of the older men, usually, who've been on the force for a while and seem little more toughened to physical and emotional needs. - Well, from what you've said so far about the myths of this kind of sexual attack, couldn't we assume that that the policeman would be in the same situation as anybody else in the society? If these are widely held beliefs the reason that the police is so often quoted I presume is that they're the ones who are directly dealing with them. But if you recall conversations that you've heard or engaged in, perhaps, with just people in general, aren't they're usually questions raised about the woman if she accuses someone of rape - That's a definite problem. The question of women's character seems to always be brought up before the court, and the woman becomes the person who's on trial. And she asked to prove that she was a good person and that she didn't somehow incite the man to rape her or seduce him. - There's a very illuminating story told in this book called "Stop Rape." It's an excellent book incidentally, available for 25 cents, and from, is this available in the bookstore? - No, the Women's Coalition has a lot of copies. - Well, it would be well worth the time of women to read this book. In fact, I think it'd be well worth the time for men to read it too, because sometimes myths are accepted without anybody really giving any great thought to it. And certainly there are plenty of decent people, men and women in the world who would discontinue saying some of the kinds of things or make that they do and making some of the assumptions they do if they really knew the truth. So that giving information, it seems to me is very important. But in this particular story that you reminded me of, of the assumption that it somehow or other the woman is on trial was the the story of a discussion among a group of women, one of whom had just gone through such a trial. And one of the women said, "We really ought to have a jury of our peers." And they all agreed before they came into to the fact that the woman really wasn't the one who needed the jury at all, she wasn't the one who was on trial. And yet here's a group of women sincerely interested in the subject of making the same kind of assumption themselves. So it seems to me that the more we can talk about it, the more it can be brought out into the open, the more the myths are discussed, the more chance there is that more people will really understand. - I'm very much interested in another myth, that I think we all participate in and that is rape victims enjoy the experience, or they get some pleasure out of it. And I think that this is one thing that the women who have been raped often comment on, that police or other people that they have to deal with will say, you know, "Did he have a good time?" Or if it's an older person, you know, "That's probably "the best time she's had in a long time," and comments such as these. And I think just even in mentioning rape that these kinds of comments will come from both men and women, just generally a matter of it being a sexual thing, and so you're bound to have enjoyed it. When this would not be true, I think. - This is a maybe a little difficult to really believe that anyone who was forced to perform such an act against her will could be getting pleasure out of it, let alone making that kind of an assumption, which then determines the sorts of questions that are asked and the treatment that the woman receives in court. How about the myth of promiscuity? Isn't that a widely held one? - Yes, as far as the woman being promiscuous, or just the kind of woman who is out looking for a thrill maybe, as well as in the cases where the woman is raped by an acquaintance this is often the problem, that she is blamed that she is the promiscuous one who is aroused the man again. - No suppose she is promiscuous, let's take the most extreme example that we can think of, let's take the streetwalker who's outright prostitute for pay. Should she then not be, is there no such thing as rape in her case? She still has the right, I think, to choose her customers. - And she certainly should have the right to say no in any kind of-- - Absolutely, certainly. - So this is totally beside the point it seems to me in any kind of a court case, and yet you say Ben that women are often asked in court or expected to prove that they're good people. If they're bad women that they deserve to be raped. - May I read a little short thing that was mentioned in this article that I think brings that out quite well. Last year, particularly repellent incident occurred on the West Coast. At topless dancer had been hired to dance at a stag party several nights before the guest of honor's wedding. After her performance all the men raped her, and then they threw her out. The dancer complained to a local feminist group and in an action, which makes one ache for the bride as well as for the dancer, the feminist picketed the wedding with signs, reading, "John is a rapist." - Well, that's certainly interesting. - Isn't it. - Now let me get this straight. They woman who was raped or the wife, I mean, the woman that he was marrying was not the woman who was raped. - No, no, it wasn't a topless dancer at the stag party. And all of the men at the party raped her and threw her out-- - And the husband was one of them? - Yes, yes, and so they picketed the wedding. That would be humiliating, as it certainly was for her. - Well, it's certainly deserved for him. Maybe it would, maybe it have been fairer to the woman, however, who was marrying him if this had been done in some other way. If she been apprised of it then let her make the decision. But it seems to me that that kind of action is being brought about by the fact that more and more women are now feeling that if anything is done about this problem they're gonna have to do it themselves. - I think so. - Would you agree with that? - Yes, I think so. I think women have tried to go through the legal process and get very frustrated, and this kind of thing is a result of that. Also, I know that in California there's been a lot of mention of the rape squad of women who patrol like the community at night to watch out for men who might be rapists, and also who have been known to physically harm a man who is an identified rapist because the man has, you know, not gotten any kind of punishment through the legal system. - How widespread are these rape squads? - I don't think they're very widespread. I've just read, you know, two or three cases. - There is a technique which is being advocated by some people of groups of women, walking the streets not so much for the purpose of what really it's a preventive purpose, so the first one that you mentioned, on the other hand if they're working on the right streets they may be able to avert an attack. They're warned against a direct attack on a man in the course of attacking a woman, if he's carrying a gun because then of course he could hurt her even more, and perhaps the rest of them as well. - That's another myth though . And that is that rape is a crime of dark alleys, and that isn't necessarily so either. Most are committed in doorways, and about one third in victim's homes where there's a matter of either a women who opens the door for us a stranger who says he's a salesman or just the plumber or whatever, or just breaks and enters. - Well, I know several cases Lawrence where a woman has had like, come home and left the door unlocked so that her other roommates could come in and then a man who's entered and raped her. And it seems pretty obvious that you just need to lock your door as one precaution. - Well, in these, there are good many statistics to indicate that in addition to this doorway, after all they probably were on the streets first and then dragged into a doorway. There is a very large number that take place in the woman's home or in the man's home. But this probably, the ones, at least, in the man's home probably indicates some degree of acquaintance, not just like the case you're mentioning that the man walks in from the street. Well, one of the things we certainly will want to talk about tonight are methods of preventing that any woman could use to prevent this kind of an attack. - This brings up even a more serious problem, and that is the woman who has been raped in the man's apartment or home, because she, obviously, in most cases, went there on her own free, you know, as a date or to have a drink or whatever, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she would submit to having sexual relations with him, and yet that was demanded of her. - And an assumption they made afterwards that makes it okay. - Yes. - Yes. - Now, are there any other myths that we really ought to talk about? - I would just like to mention one more and that's a matter of age. It's not necessarily true that rapists go after young and pretty women. And national statistics show that a child six months old has been raped and a woman as old as 93, and the police woman from Kansas City who was to be here, mentioned in an article not too long ago that she has seen rape victims from the age of two to 86 in all parts of Kansas City, that she's dealt with. - That's very interesting. The first such case that I ever heard of as a child involved a woman who was in her late 80s and resulted in her death. And I think that it was because of her death, that there was so much publicity concerning it. Although there might've been probably say the other way, and I suppose there would be more credence given to her story than that of the young and pretty girl about whom all kinds of other assumptions are going to be made. Do you feel that we've established the fact that this problem is getting greater? - Yes. - You know, many people wouldn't want to say that it's just that it was such a taboo subject in the past that we just didn't know about them, and probably we see even now only the tip of the iceberg, but the evidence seems to be in controvertible that attacks on women are on the increase. Would you both agree to that? - Yes, definitely. - I think we have to include the fact that there are more independent women around now, that a woman working and living in an apartment or some such thing maybe works late at night must necessarily at some time or another be in the streets by herself. - Otherwise if she simply live in completely in her home and is there every night and never goes out, even to play bridge, I presume that, and keeps the door locked, In other words, it's sort of incarcerates herself at practically all times, and doesn't respond to anybody at the door that might be possible for her to be fairly safe. Most women, I take it are no longer willing to live in that kind of convent existence. - No, but I think all those of us who do go out in the evening or are out late are concerned about that. I know that when I go to my apartment late in the evening that I'm sure to check all the dark spots, and it's something that I think about every time I get out of my car to go to a door wherever that is in the evening time. - Well, why do you do that? I mean, what makes you think that something might happen to you? - I've known a couple of people to whom things have happened that have been unpleasant and they were just nice innocent folks who were minding their own business who were fairly close to a safe place even, where they lived or whatever. - Do you think it would be fair to say that there probably isn't a grown woman in the country that hasn't had some experience either herself or vicariously that would lead her to fear attacks under certain circumstances? - I would think. - And yet we constantly run into people. You weren't using the myth in the same sense when you said that a lot of people believe that rape occurs in dark alleys. That's still not a very good place to be is it? - No, of course not. - Dark alley where you may be dragged to some lighter place-- - Or walking through campus by yourself or whatever, anything. - But so far back as I can remember, women had been warned against this kind of thing, but it still happens, doesn't it? - Well, I know I, myself, like when I was a freshman I never was concerned. I walked around Lawrence a lot. I felt quite safe. And then I was assaulted, and this was like on a Monday night at 10 o'clock after classes on campus, and-- - Excuse me, just a minute. We'll come back to that. We have a caller now. Hello? - Hello, Ms. Taylor. - Yes. - I understand, and I would like to speak to the problem of rape victims going to court, and witnessing a rape is a felony offense as I understand it, correct? - Yes. - And all other felony cases, all these felony cases the accused person has open access, or his lawyer does to cross examine the witness, so for all sorts of things, factually, character witness, so moral character what have you. How would you how you propose to eliminate this legal safeguard or right of the accused in the case of rape cases, you know, where the chief witnesses is the victim herself. How can you not allow her to be exposed to the kind of examination that all witnesses have to go through in felony cases? - Either one of the panelists care to respond to that? - In the first place, are you suggesting that any legal safeguards be prohibited? - No. - No, I'm asking the panelists-- - I see. - Oh, I'm sorry. - Because his assumption was that, the assumption of the question was, how are we going to prevent the legal safeguards? Do you wish to prevent the legal safeguards for the? - No, I think that the accused has got to have just as much right in the court as a murderer or anybody else, that's irrefutable, I think. There are such strict by-lines by which the courts have to go in some places. In New York, you have to have, or up until recently had to have three things. You had to have the use of force. In other words, you know, bruises had to show and this kind. And in a pair of rape or gang rape, that's not gonna happen 'cause all you need is to have one person hold her down and the other one to go at it. Secondly, you have to have sexual penetration of the victim, and that has to be established by doctors. And that has to be done immediately after the rape. - One thing about sexual penetration the man has to have an orgasm, there is no way to prove that there was sexual penetration unless he has an orgasm. Therefore it is not rape unless he gets his jollies. - Yeah. And then, thirdly, you have to have the identity of the assailant by the victim. And all of these things were necessary, are necessary in New York and in other states, in order to determine without a doubt that the offender was the guilty one. - I think, however, that the caller has asked a somewhat different question. And I like to read you a quotation from a Yale Law professor, Professor Komesar, who says, "The very least that can be done "is that this sort of argumentative cross-examination "implying lack of chastity on the part of the victim "should not go on, it simply should not be allowed. "There should be legitimate questions, period." Now I think that no one is questioning legitimate questions. What our panelists are questioning is the right of the defense lawyer to try to prove as if it had anything to do with whether a rape took place that the woman was unchaste in the first place and therefore should be free prey for any man who cares to rape her. Gerard, go ahead, though, with any comment that you have. Are you still on the line? - Yes, yes. No, I'm still mulling over the quotation that you read from my law professor. That would, if I understand you correctly, he is asking for a a simple factual cross-examination rather than character, establishing of character so forth. - That sounds that way to me because, if I understand the definition correctly of what rape really is, the character of the witness should not be the determining fact, it's whether or not the man used physical force to render the woman submissive. - But you prove physical force? - Well, yes, but the question he's raising is, how can you protect the rights of the person who is accused unless you allow him to attack, or his lawyer to attack the character of the women's - Would this put this type of felony in a different category then the other felony cases, you know, where character is admitted as a relevant matter before the jury? - The character of the victim as well as the character of the accused-- - Well, this is a different situation. In this case, the chief witnesses almost always the victim which is, you know, to begin with, makes it, sets it apart from most other situations. I mean, a murder victim obviously is not his witness. But even in robbery cases, if no stolen goods, you know, no stolen property is there as an exhibit the robbed person's word can be taken no more heavily than the accused's. - I think that further along in the program that we should talk about what kinds of exhibits are customary in cases of this kind. They're not an unheard of, in fact, without them, it's most unlikely that any case would be won. - Well, I haven't, perhaps, sound like it, but I wasn't, you know, I have no intention, it wasn't my intent to, you know, what I'm actually trying to say is that it perhaps may serve the interests of everybody especially the victims of rape and rape cases that had been taken out of the category of a felony case, you know, a felony crime simply for this purpose in order to to obviate this difficulty in which the victim is her own chief witness and therefore has to be open for character assessment. - I don't know that I would want it to be made in misdemeanor. However, I think that it's much more serious than what that real-- - Real it would seem- - Of course, we're stuck with just the two kinds, I'm actually going to go into different kinds of psychopathic. - Right, we are at the moment but it does strike me as a non-lawyers being a little on the ridiculous side. If we have to, that the processes themselves cannot be adjusted appropriately rather than to say that something is what it isn't. I mean, obviously if a woman is forced to submit via physical force to an act that she does not wish to perform, then it should be an extremely serious matter or whatever its called-- - Yes, it does, but by same token, it's extremely serious for the man who was being accused of this and, you know, whether he's guilty or not. And we have to presume that he is not until it can be proven. And if it's a felony it has to be proven by certain acceptable proof. - Those three things that I mentioned to you either are the three things that are acceptable proof. The use of force that is visible on the woman and sexual penetration-- - It means really the presence of sperm-- - Of sperm that's right. - And then her affidavit that she was unwilling. - That's right. That was the assailant. Which brings in another particular problem, and that is that the woman has to immediately be taken to the hospital or doctor and to be examined, and that doesn't happen. Often, if a woman will just go home and take a bath or a shower first, and thinking about it before she'll even call the police. - Really destroying the evidence. - Destroys the evidence. - We are being told by our engineer that we must stop for station identification. We appreciate your calling and hope you'll call back. - Music critics, Irving Kolodin of the "Saturday Review" Martin Bookspan the "New York Times" and Edward Downes of the "Metropolitan Opera Quiz" are featured on a new program, "First Hearing." The number of new records released every year is staggering but only a few of those will be successful. With the help of "First Hearing" you'll have a good idea as to which of the new releases will be successful. You can join Lloyd Moss and his three music critics on First Hearing, Wednesday night at nine on KANU, Lawrence, the public radio service of the University of Kansas. This is James Seaver inviting you to listen in for "Opera's My Hobby," at eight o'clock Friday evening. Then on request begorrah and glad to honor it we'll be hearing once again the glorious tones that Irish troubadour, John McCormack. He'll be seeing a program, of Irish songs and only Irish songs, it honor of St Patrick's day, and maybe again singing in the hope that peace may return once again to the Emerald Isle someday, anyway. As 1/8 Irish, I claimed the right to the wearing of the green and John McCormack is without equal to me in the interpretation of the songs that we're going to be hearing, beginning with such traditional numbers as the "Londonderry Air' and "Killarney" and the "Ballynure Ballad" then we'll go to the haunting emigrant ballad such as "The Snowy Breasted Pearl," "She Is Far From The Land of Her Birth" "Kathleen Mavourneen" of course. Finally, we'll be hearing some songs of Ireland that John McCormack made famous as "Where The River Shannon Flows," "Macushla," And one of my great favorites "Come Back To Erin Mavourneen, Mavourneen." So for an evening of famous Irish songs sung by John McCormack, listen in for "Opera's My Hobby" on Saint Patrick's eve, Friday at eight o'clock on KANU. You're listening to a "Feminist Perspective" on KANU and here again is our moderator KU Dean of Women, Emily Taylor. - We are discussing tonight the question of attacks on women, specifically of rapes. We invite any of you to call, raise any question or make a comment. Our number is 864-4530 or if you're out of town 913-864-4530 our guests tonight are Pat Henry, a senior in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences and Judy Haddad. We have been discussing the question of actual court cases and of what are the kinds of things which happened in these cases which make the statistics on those who are convicted are really rather weak. We haven't talked about that. Do any of, you know, any specific statistics on what actually happens to cases that get taken to court? What percentage of them get there in the first place and what percentages are convicted? - I haven't run cross that, but I did see in one particular spot, somewhere where there were just so few that were actually convicted. In one case where it did happen, the woman was actually hit with a butt of a gun and was also involved in a car theft on the way to being raped. So then both of her assailants got quite a bit of time in jail, 20 and 30 years was what it came to. - I probably shouldn't have raised the question because I don't want to use statistics either, except that in general terms that relatively small percentage of cases ever get to court and that a considerable number of those cases the person who's accused is acquitted. Our last caller pointed out a very real question of how you maintain the rights of any defendant in any kind of of a felony case, and at the same time solve some of the problems about which we've been talking. If any of the rest of you have comments on that, why please feel free to call. We do know, I do know one statistic, and that is that only half of the rapists or accused rapist are actually arrested compared to 86% of the murderers. So there's a good deal more effort apparently to identify the murder who is also most unlikely to perform a murder in the presence of witnesses as unlikely as the rapist is, and yet, as one of the major crimes of violence and one of the few major crimes of violence we don't seem to get to discover. And I have arrested a very large percentage of those who are accused of rape. I'd like to turn now for a minute to a little article from the "Los Angeles Times" concerning New York's Rape analysis Bureau, because it has some interesting points in here that I'd like to hear you folks discuss. There has been a newly created all female rape investigation section of the New York City Police Department. What's your reaction to that? Does it make any difference whether the police or policemen or police women when they're dealing with rape victims? - Well, I think it's probably easier for a victim to talk to a police woman in that she wouldn't feel that whole kind of lewd voyeurism or something like that that some women have felt from policemen when she's questioned. - There's certainly a degree of embarrassment even at what are probably perfectly legitimate questions that might not be felt if the questioner was a woman, at least it seems from the account to be working well in this particular police department. The woman who is in charge of it is quoted as saying that only 1% of the women who cry rape are really crying wolf. In other words, that most of the ones who get themselves as far as reporting to the police have indeed a case. She talks also about another myth saying that few rape victims ever provoke the attack. Again, that perhaps 1% of the women who report they have been raped have not in reality have been raped, she says, and that they, and this all women's unit was formed on the theory, a fact that your were about, that the rape victim would find it easier to tell a woman about the attack then she would a man. In connection with the provoking of of rape, the major provocation apparently is it just in being a woman, but that if the woman was acting in a way which a man found provocative that she would indeed be acting the way that society seems to expect her to act, that should not, of course, that should be no excuse for the for the attack. And she points out this Lieutenant Tucker that certainly regardless of who the woman is she certainly has a right at any given time to say no to anyone. She also feels that if this doubting person, the person who doubts that the attack has really taken place, if it were his wife or his daughter that the situation would be quite different as to whether or not he felt that the woman had encouraged or provoked an attack or simply made it all up. She feels that the reason that so many men are skeptical of the authenticity of rape reports is that men do not want to admit that man can act like an animal and be so despicable. And yet we know that this is indeed possible. And these are not as we established, I think, at the beginning mad men of some kind are they? - No, no, they're very average people, many with the wives and children. - She feels that most male detectives don't treat the woman badly, but that some of them are callous, but that in any event whether she's being treated badly or not that the woman feels embarrassed at having to make this account to the man. And, apparently, from some of the accounts are written in the books of rape that I mentioned it's not just telling it once, telling the story once, but telling it many times and having to be subjected to a cross-examination that may make it look as if you didn't get the story right the first time. - This was a point that the woman who was hit with the gun and kidnapped and raped mentioned in the article that was in the "Kansas City Star." And that was that she constantly had to repeat the story and to continue to relive it, and anytime question of parole came up for the men it's been three years since they were sentenced, that again she would have to be called up and used as a witness. And it's just a constant badgering, it seems like, and she just doesn't know that that it's worth all of that, besides being worth 20 and 30 years of a man's wife. - We have another caller. Would you come in please. - Yes, is it ever possible for a woman to charge rape against a man that she's married to? - Is it possible for a woman to charge rape against the man she's married to? - No, I believe the Kansas law states that rape is sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who is not his wife. - All right, thank you very much. - That question has been brought up though before, you know, can a woman accuse her husband of rape because obviously in many instances wives have had to forcibly give into the husbands. - Well, that would be a rather difficult one, I suppose. - I knew of one case where a woman was raped by her husband, they had had an argument and she had locked him out and he broke into the house and raped her. And in the process, he broke her arm so she was able to go to court under an assault case, but there was no rape as far as the law was concerned. - It's an interesting question, isn't it? - Yes it is. - Now you mentioned among me efforts that women are making now to slow down or preferably to stop rape completely, the Anti Rape Squad, and our book here refers to it as or reinstituting the evening walk. with a number of women together because it seems that it's rather rare for a group of women to be attacked. - Yes. - Would you agree with that? So that it is quite possible that this is a, a helpful thing. Now, certainly groups have been attacked by other groups, but apparently not commonly for the purpose of rape. Another group that's referred to here is the support group. And Pat I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your experiences with support groups? - Well, I've been involved with several people from Women's Coalition and from the Dean of Women's Office trying to set up a rape victim counseling program and it's taken us a good year now and we have finally handled one case and we're still in the process of doing training of new rape victim counselors. But the program is set up so that a woman who is raped can call up headquarters or information center, and they will contact a rape victim counselor who will accompany her to the hospital and the police station, and eventually to the courts and that kind of thing, giving her support throughout so that she doesn't become so weighted down by guilt and just bad feelings from the whole situation that she fails to prosecute or that she just generally feels terrible about it. - Or even if she did fail to, there still would be the advantage of the support group, wouldn't there? - Yes. - Because it's a method of giving emotional support to a woman who has had such an experience no matter what she decides. We sincerely hope that nobody in our radio audience will ever have this kind of experience. But if so, then we would advise that the call, no matter how bad one feels at the moment, that the call be made before any evidence is destroyed, and that includes even taking a bath, doesn't it? - Yes, because the woman must get to the hospital within an hour, in order for the specimen of a motile sperm to still be good. - So such groups can provide information about available medical assistance, about the kinds of medical attention that are needed by the rape victim. They can I give advice in terms of courtroom procedures, some of the people, whom they taught me have had the experience themselves and therefore can speak from direct experience on it. Legal assistance can be secured for the victim. And one of the most important things of all, emotional support can be given because to the extent that some women have internalized some of the myths you're talking about, you may find them in a position where they think, What is the matter with me? "What did I do to create the situation? And certainly we all know women who have hesitated to say anything to anybody else for fear that's what they will think. You know, even though they may know themselves that it's not true. The other suggestions that are made about ways in which women can help other women is the organized study groups to research the law and to determine changes that are necessary to benefit women. - This was something that was done in New York because it was so difficult to prosecute anybody there and get to put them in jail that the focus groups finally got the law changed just in one slight degree, but it is still very difficult to have anybody found guilty in New York. - Another suggestion is what they call court watching. That in the event that there is a rape case that's being tried in the court that large numbers of women should go observe the processes for themselves, determine the specific uses and misuses that are made of women and provide one another with the substantial data to move toward making changes. Again, the question that our caller raised, there's a chance to make personal observations on whether or not the kinds of questions that are asked are really intended to protect the rights of the defendant, or are they indeed intended to perpetuate the myths that people want to apparently, are willing to believe anyway. - And intimidate the victim, yes. Another aspect of this court watching is also just to give some support to the victim so that she's not the only woman in the court. - There was another case, it was reported in the "Redbook" article, a woman describing maybe it was in the "Stop Rape" thing, woman describing her a court case and everything about it, and she was just moved from one room to the other and went to the witness stand and was taken back into the room and never heard what the assailant had said in his own behalf, and it ended up that he was found not guilty because there was really nobody there to witness, not even including herself, because nobody advised her to stay and hear what kinds of things went on in the courtroom. - Yes, I'd like very much for, if there's a lawyer in the radio audience listening to call and tell us if this is a customary procedure for cases of violence, any kind where they, the victim is not permitted to hear? - Was her own choice that she not stay in the courtroom? - Well, not in the case I read, it wasn't her choice. - Oh, well that was, I thought that it was. - And she wanted to hear, but she was not permitted to listen to any of the testimony that was given. Now this may be ordinary court procedure and there may be some fine legal reason for it, but, nevertheless, it does make the rape victim, and in this case the man had admitted it. - That's right. - So that it really wasn't, he had admitted it, but he had not pled guilty to it. Instead he tried to, his lawyer had tried to get her lawyer to call the whole thing off, or to let him plead guilty to a lesser charge. And this one until very recent times has been by far my greatest experience of the woman deciding to permit the man to plead guilty to a lesser charge like attack because she was so fearful of what she would have to go through with and the kind of reputation she would establish, if she did go through with the whole process. There are some other suggestions that they make concerning spreading the word, anonymous establishing speakers bureaus available to women's groups only. Now this of course is available to any group that would like to have a speaker on this subject to discuss the whole topic. In fact, these are happening all the time, aren't they? - Yes. The rape victim counselors are quite willing to come and talk, also in addition to that we have self-defense program with Women's Coalitional and these women can come and give a demonstration to women's groups about the kinds of things that they can do to avoid getting into an attack situation, how they can get out of it. - Can we talk about that right now? Just suggestions and-- - Yes, I think, that would be good. What kind are you talking about karate-- - Well, these are women who have taken karate yet they're not actually teaching karate. Their objective, first of all, in their classes is to just make women stronger because so many women have, just don't have any kind of physical capabilities because they aren't active, they don't do things like that. Then the second-- - We're also taught to cry instead of fight back. - And then the second thing is just to learn some very basic karate, judo kinds of techniques that you can get out of a stranglehold or that you could kick a man or something like that so that you might be able to get away. - Yes, I think there's also the question of just psychologically preparing women to do even the common, ordinary thing, which anybody you wouldn't even need to take a lesson if the lesson might need to be the psychological lesson in that rather than to be raped, to forget about not scratching somebody's eyes out, if that's possible, or doing whatever you have to do in order to escape from the situation. - There are also a lot of things that we carry around with us that that could help us if we were attacked without actually learning karate or some such thing. And that is a use keys, or pencils or pens aimed at the throat will go through, you'll make a hole there. Also the use of an umbrella, not to use it as a club, but as the bayonet and to aim it at his stomach or his throat. - Carrying a lighted cigarette or cigar whether you're smoking or not, that makes it possible to burn the-- - If you have on high heels and take them off it's easier to run without them. And they make a pretty good dent too if you use them as weapon. - I barely wear them anymore, they might not be too good. Another one of those suggestions for spreading the word is holding seminars for women on the whole issue which is focusing on understanding the law and on the psychology and institution of rape, as well as providing women with some self-defense techniques. Another interesting one to us is the use of mass media, such as radio and talk shows and TV broadcast with the comment that some stations now have programs by and for women, be sure that rape becomes a topic. We do indeed in our "Feminist Perspective" have a program by and for women. And surely this is a subject that should be discussed on this program. The self-defense courses you've talked about and the suggestion that such classes should start far before college. - Definitely. - The most common age bracket for rapes is from 10 to 19, which is a pretty hard time to have to live through something like that. I also would like to urge all people to practice identification of cars, color, make, model, especially license numbers, if possible, a part of a licensed number, whatever would be important and then unusual things such as decals or trailer hitch or cracked glass or dents or whatever. - And then the same way with any kind of identifying characteristics - On the body. - on the man himself. What you said about identifying cars, I think is terribly important. I remember a case, a good many years ago, where five different women on the same day identified the same man behaving in the same way, let's say. And every single one of them described the car that he was driving in a different way. - Oh, no. - Either the color, the make, there was something about the car that they saw differently. I think we, as women are just really not trained very well to pay any attention to the kind of car, it either looks nice or it doesn't , you know, it's as much an old battered up car but knowing what kind it is, seems like so much trouble to go to, but might come in good stead. - At least the color and the make. You know, if you know, it's a Ford and there are thousands of different Fords, and the color of it and the approximate year that would help. - Well, our time is almost up. I do like to think that Pat Henry and Judy Haddad for joining us tonight, I'm sorry that our Kansas City detectives got, was unable to find the stations, probably what happened? I hope that she can join us at another time and we would be happy to discuss with any of you who belong to a group. The possibility of a further discussion of this whole matter in a face-to-face kind of situation. Thank you for listening, we hope you'll join us again next Monday at seven o'clock for a "Feminist Perspective." - Listen again next Monday at seven, for "Feminist Perspective." presented in cooperation with the Office of the Dean of Women at the University of Kansas. The time now eight o'clock and time for news headlines. - It's 61 degrees in Topeka, 63 degrees in Kansas City and 63 degrees here at Broadcasting Hall. This is Bob Toten reporting, KANU, Lawrence hourly headlines. - It's a Greek word, which was rather interesting because you recognize the end of it, the ology is a mark of a science, but this is a science of techne, and techne is a Greek word for art. And therefore technology is the science of art. Rather curious notion. But even the Greeks use the word technology. What is technology? The verb means to prescribe as a rule of art, it means to treat systematically. A is a systematic treatment of anything. A is a teacher. A teacher who conveys to his students an ability or an art. And therefore if you look at the writings of Sextus Empiricus, the famous skeptic, he calls the treatises of the dogmatists who laid down dogmas, he calls them technologies. They were technologies particularly in mathematics and in rhetoric. And let me be concrete again, this is the opening sentence of Longinus who wrote a treatise on the sublime. And I will not translate as technology, any Greek word which is not the Greek word . The opening sentence, he is calling his treatise "On the Sublime" a technology. And he's saying that any technology such as one that he is writing will have two parts. Let me read you what he says. "Moreover," opening sentence, "Moreover, in every systematic treatise "that's ," in every technology "there are two requisites; "the author must first define his subject, " and secondly, "though, this is more important, he must show us how "and by what means to reach the goal ourselves." So the technology is a treatise in which you are given a subject matter and how to do it yourself rules with respect to that subject mater. If you acquire a command of a field and an ability to operate in the field you have acquired a technology. If the use of technology with respect to rhetoric seems to be a bit strange, and if you think, therefore, I'm pulling something on you I've had this suspicion brought against me several times in two days that I've been in Kansas. I'm not slippery, I'm frank, open, I always give my facts. Let me give you the way in which technology is used with respect to what you will recognize as a technology. Vitruvius, in the second century AD wrote a book called "On Architecture," and in that book, he explains what he considers the science and he thinks that architecture is a science to be, and what the preparatory technique is, what the technologies you should have in college to prepare for the graduate cause in architecture should be. This, again, is the opening sentence of the treatise, "The science , I'm translating by using the cognate, "The science of architecture depends on many disciplines "and many erudition which are perfected in other arts "his work," that is the work of the architect, "consists in fabrication and ratiocination," Latin words are and . I looked up the translations, and one of those two words is translated technology in the lobe edition translation. If we had a question-answer period, I'd ask you which one do you think is the technology? It's not it's . is translated, craftsmanship, is translated technology, but leaving out the peculiarities of English translation and therefore dragging in technology illegitimate, I would have translated as technology not . That again is a peculiarity that I have rather than a peculiarity of Vitruvius. he says, I'll stay in the Latin so that you don't have the trouble of knowing which one I'm talking about, is the continued and familiar meditation of use which is perfected by the hands. This was a Greek approach. Aristotle, for example, spoke of the hands as the tool of tools. And therefore whatever other tools you had, it was the hands which were the essence of the tools in the fabrication perfected by the hands in such material as is necessary for the nature of the design. And here I'm dubbing the Latin. What the Latin really says is for the deformation of the thing, as a result of the fabrication. I didn't want to say deformation because we think of deformation as a misuse, but what fabrication is is putting a new form on the form that the thing has naturally. , technology according to the lobe translation can demonstrate and explain the fabricated thing with technical skill and reason. Those who depend on reasoning alone or on letters without hands, and those who depend on technical skill alone of hands without reasoning are imperfect. The architect needs both, two things are needed in architecture, what is signified and what signifies. Then Vitruvius goes on to say that if this is what you're get in the graduate school in architecture proper, what do you require as preparation? What should the architect know? What are the technologies that he ought to have before he acquires the technology of architecture. He should have a knowledge of literature. He should have a knowledge of craftsmanship. He shouldn't have a knowledge of mathematics. He should have a knowledge of history. He should have a knowledge of philosophy, of music, of medicine, of law, and of astronomy. I've merely enumerated them, but if you think back, all of these would be extremely useful to a man who is engaged in urban design, even astronomy, even medicine to understand the climates that he builds in and the pollutions that he needs to avoid? This is technology in the Roman Empire. You notice what technology is? The Roman Empire was setting up a world organization of law, politics, world empire. The unifying arts they were looking for were arts and actions in the practical sciences. And technology, this is what I am aiming at, is the science which contributes to the culture which begs for a unified world and it is a.