- This is the Dean of women's office 20 Strong Hall. Tonight's broadcast is the last in a series on the Exceptional Woman. Tonight's program, "The Young Feminist". Last week, you heard a program in this series entitled "Outstanding Senior Women, 1974". A feminist perspective provides a forum for women themselves to speak publicly on issues of concerns to them and helps inform other women and men of the movement which is remaking those shape and substance of women's and men's lives. The women's resource and career planning center contains large amounts of information, news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, and books pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We would like to invite you to come in and browse or take advantage of the materials which can be borrowed. That's in two 220 Strong Hall at the University of Kansas. Tonight joining us for the program on the Exceptional Woman the young feminist, I'm very pleased to have with us, three young women from really across the country. We have visiting with us tonight from out of town Ms. Marren Hassler from Atlanta. Hi, welcome. Welcome to Maurice and welcome to the program. - Thank you. - So can you tell us something about yourself? What do you do? - I'm a student at Bryant high school in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm 14 years old and I'm here visiting a friend of mine. - Well, thank you very much. We're glad to have you. - Thank you. - Also from out of town visiting with us today, is Ms. Annie Sherwood from Topeka. Welcome Ann. - Thank you. - Can you tell us something about yourself? - I am a senior at Washburn Rural high school in Topeka and I am 18 years old. - Thank you. And we have Ms. Morna Walsh, who is from Lawrence. Hi, Morna. - Thanks. - So can you tell us about yourself? - I go to South Junior high school and I'm interested in biology and drama. - And how old are you? - I'm 14. - Well, thank you very much. To begin this evening's discussion, I would like to ask each of you, how did you first become involved how did you first become aware of the issues of the women's movement? Ann we start with you. - Well, I don't think I can pinpoint an exact time. It's probably an accumulation of events. One in particular, I applied for a job at Alon a nursery service, which will go unnamed but I applied for a job there. My brother had a similar job, it's manual labor if that matters. Lawn, mowing, raking, that kind of thing. I thought it'd be really good to, you know you'd be outdoors all summer. But I couldn't get the job. And I asked why. And I said, I asked it wouldn't be a matter of physical capabilities because I've been doing that sort of work in my own yard for about five years. And the employers are neighbors of ours and so they knew that. And she said her husband wouldn't hire me because I was a girl. And I said, why? And she said, because that's it. That it would be a distraction to the boys working there and that sort of infuriated me. And it went on from there, I guess. - And about how long ago was that? - Three years. - Three years ago. So you've been brewing about various things since that time. - Yeah. - Marren, when did you first become aware? - I can't really pinpoint it but like in the first-grade book, Sally, Dick and Jane. Sally goes outside and plays in the lawn and Dick goes into plays basketball or football or baseball or whatever else. And I always played baseball with my brother. And in the book when Sally wanted to play baseball with whoever her brother was, I've forgotten and he wouldn't let her 'cause she was a girl. And I remember I went home crying because I thought I wasn't supposed to play baseball. And that's my earliest memory. I don't know if you'd call that a feminist thing but that was kind of- - Well, it certainly affected you. - Yeah. - And made you aware that for some reason Sally was being discriminated against in that book. Although I don't know that you would have thought of it in particularly those terms. - Not quite but that kind of thing. - Morna? - I don't know the exact time I'd say it was about in the seventh grade and I was just reading and you're learning. And as I read in the new magazine, miss come out when I read and say, like that's exactly how I felt you know, I'm so glad somebody is saying it, at the end, when as I found out that there were other people, you know just in the United States or the world that felt the way I did about certain things then I started thinking more and more about getting more and more opinions and doing things. - Very good. Now, when you, so you became aware that in some cases or in some situations, women and men with equal interests or qualifications were not treated the same and apparently on that basis whether they were men or women. Well, what did you first do? How did you first become an active feminist? Annie, you ran for president of your class, didn't you? - Yeah, oh, that's yeah. I told you about that earlier. As an example, at my school, I don't think there'd ever been a junior class president that was a girl. It is traditionally a boy's position. And I ran for it and I won. And encountered very few problems, except for with the graduation, the president ushers the graduating seniors into the gymnasium that's what we use. - It is a tradition, at your high school - Yeah, that the president of the junior class ushers the graduating seniors in, And that presented a problem to I don't know if it was the administration or just the people who were concerned with tradition or what it was but, that didn't suit them that a girl would be out bringing in these people. So they got the vice president who happened to be a boy to be a co-usher. And we both led them in but there definitely had to have a male there. - Did you do it equally? - Yeah, we did. We served the same purpose. We each took a side of the room. - How did you feel when this was explained to you? - Well, I was mad. I thought it was ridiculous. They expected me to assume all the responsibilities as the president, which aren't very numerous but we're responsible for some activities and things. And I was expected to do that, but I wasn't capable of walking up between a row, two sets of chairs and ushering people in, which is ridiculous, if you ask me. - Not particularly meaning to pursue this too far but, now you're senior this year, who's going to usher your class? - A boy, - By a girl? - I imagine so. Or perhaps we'll have another boy helping him out. But as it stands, it's the president of the junior class and he's a male. - Okay, Morna, when did you first do something active to follow up on your interests? - Since I found out a little bit about it so that I could speak on the subject. I would talk to my friends when things have happened that I thought were very discriminating. I would always say something and, you know, talking in class, you know like social studies classes, you have a lot of discussions on things like that. I started writing a column for the school newspaper that, and I would put down the wildest most radical things I could think of. It would make the whole school very angry. And that was the way I got lots of reactions because after a newspaper would come out, people who I didn't know would come up and ask me questions and talk to me. And it would be really interesting to talk to them. - Marren? - Well, I don't know if you know it but the equal rights amendment was defeated in Georgia just about a month ago. But right before, while it was still going through with the legislature, I was one of the girls that was passing out the button at school. And by the day that they were voting for it every girl in Briarcliff had the ERA button. And I've done like what Morna has, talked to my friends, you know just protested in general. - When you were going through some of these, you know, you had started becoming an active feminist, what did you find the reactions of some of your colleagues, some of your peers? Did you find that you had some people who felt the same way and so you could get an alliance of interested and concerned women? Or what did you find the situation to be, Morna, here in Lawrence, what did you find at your school? - I know about two years ago when I was in the seventh-grade, There was nobody in school besides myself, I think who I was with, who could be who would say that there were from more than equal pay for equal work. And you, and just about anybody after thinking about it was like, okay, I'm for that but that's as far as I'll go. But their attitudes have changed lately. Now they're, I've got several friends who you know, who believe what I believe, you know, but more and more the kids who I used to argue with are not, don't make fun of my ideas anymore. And a lot more, they agree with more of it. They accept more of it. Some of them just assume some of the values they were against to be true now. Just in past two years, there's been all this change. - And you can see that change within particular individuals, - Oh yes. - That are in your classroom. Very interesting. Annie, how do you find the situation at your high school? - At present, there have been a few who are interested, not even actively interested in the women's movement. For example, in my government classes, we were given out a list of subjects to study during the semester. And besides the ones that were, that you had to study like the Kansas constitution, US constitution, there were other elective subjects and the women's movement was on it. And that brought jeers and laughter and these kinds of things. And it didn't get, it wasn't chosen. And- - How many people would have had to express an interest for it to be chosen? - Just a simple majority. And that didn't come about. Although in my world history class we had the same thing where you choose subjects to study and we are going to, we have Mrs. Ball, my history teacher has a unit called "Call me Miss'. And we're going to study that strangely enough there are seven girls in our class and no boys. And that may be why we were going to study that because there weren't any boys to vote against it. And that's generally, who'd vote against it. Or at least that's what I found. But there are not, there are a few avid promoters of the women's movement, but very, very few and, they are all are females. And most people that I talk to about it are indifferent. There's a good deal of empathy about it, but there are some that, that are willing to fight and they really have no valid justification their beliefs but they're not willing to listen. And well they talk in stereotypes to put it plainly. - What happened recently, I participated in a program at your school. And the program was certainly aimed toward the women's movement. I wonder if you had any, since it was pretty widely known, that you had organized the program that brought me there. I wondered if you had any after effects or any repercussions, either in either direction. Well, if any, they were, they were from people that appreciated the program. And a lot of kids said it was, you know, it was fun, it wasn't like, well, we gotta get out of class for an hour, but they enjoyed it, the presentation itself. And which I think is very very good because basically our school is unaware and is making no attempt to become more aware of the women's movement, and the changing social attitudes toward women in the United States. And basically the remarks I heard from people. They appreciated the program very much. I might add that they were almost all women that said that. - I don't find that to be surprising, especially if the school as a whole is rather uninitiated as you have described it. - Right, yeah. - While I was still there, I think we had a lot of people talking and I just hoped that that would continue. Now that may be a lot to expect from one program or one day's worth of programs. But at least I think we made some kind of impression on a few people. - Yeah I think so. You have to get started. - And we got some men talking too, at least there were some of the men that approached me to make some comments about what'd we said. - Marren, what have you found in your colleagues. Now you're starting to get a lot of women interested if you have all the women in your high school wearing ERA buttons before the vote was taken, what did you find? - I think most of them are really do believe that women are just as good as men are. And you're like, they really think that then one thing that I don't understand is how they couldn't think that in Kansas, it just doesn't make sense. There doesn't seem to be too much empathy. The only point where they aren't sure is that if the ERA did go through this lot of talk that women would be drafted as well as men because we've declared ourselves equal and some girls my age, didn't, you know they'd rather stay at home and take care of their baby. - Right now that's a rather weak point because we don't have the draft for anyone. - You know, they were afraid that they would have to go off to war because they had declared themselves equal. That was the main point against the ERA, I think in Georgia. - That's very interesting. What about the role or the attitudes of the male students at your school? If all the women were wearing ERA buttons, what were the men doing? - The seniors, the older they got they are willing to accept women as equals but the eighth grade, you know go back to the kitchen where you belong. - Now, you should explain probably that your high school included five grades. My high school is eighth, ninth, 10th, 11th, and 12th grades. So the eighth-graders, about my age 14-year-old boys still do jeer. They don't believe that we're equal. I know kind of that's the way it is in Kansas, too. I've met with one or two boys that really don't think that we're equal. And then, but the older they get the more they're willing to accept that. - I don't think that what I said earlier about advocacy, I don't think it's a question of equality. For example, last year, my American history class, our teacher developed this plan where we would have a debate on women's liberation. And I guess he decided it was a logical way to arrange things, to divide the class in two parts not according to beliefs, but by sexes. So the girls would fight the boys. And that's I guess what he wanted. The only thing was there was no debate because the boys basically agreed with the girls with the whole idea. It's just that they're not they're not actively interested in it. There's no, you know they're not contesting everything there are individuals that do that. They don't question the equality of the two sexes, but perhaps it's that they like they like the present role of the woman in the society and they don't want that to change. They want the women to remain dependent on the man or at least in marital status where she's not an independent, she's not the aggressive personality within the marriage, things like that. But- - Did not find dependency in any way just incompatible with equality. Or did you qualify that by saying in marriage situation? - Yeah, in marriage situations. - I think probably, I personally would probably still do disagree with that. But I guess that perhaps two people who for the most part are not engaged in a marriage contract that perhaps that's easier to understand. I guess still be an interesting point to discuss. - It was. - Some of my dates the boy still likes to think that he is the one, he takes you out. he picks you up. - Did you say you don't do that? - No. - I ask them out, things like, you know, I don't, I have very small income and so do people I go out with, so my friends, likewise and there's no, basically there's no reason unless you know their generosity like to do nice things. Then I let them if that's the argument but I pay for my own way. - Morna have you ever had success with paying your own way? - Yeah, but people will claim that, boys will claim they're for everything, you know in women's liberation they believe women are completely equal in everything but it still bothers them when you want to pay your own way. That really seems to threaten some especially right up there at the window, you know, paying or something like that, When it comes right down to something that's practical like that they're a little bit different than what they say. - Didn't you recently have an experience like that Marren, right there at the club machine? - Yeah - No, really 'cause I think even on your receipt it was 20 cents. - It was. - It was only 20 cents. And I said, I can find mine and I'm not gonna mention his name but you tell him, refused to let me get my own drink. He insisted that he could pay for it. And I bet you I make more money than he does 'cause I've got a regular babysitting job. I think so. - It's kind of an amazing thing. We were talking about your friends and your colleagues at school and what they think of the whole situation how they've reacted to you as young feminists. What about your family? How did they react to your involvement and to your beliefs? They are probably rather different than what they might generally be exposed to Morna, go ahead. - I know I get some teasing at my house but it's not the kind you would expect it's, my dad would come and play the role of exactly opposite with what I think, just to challenge me and just to get me excited and we will have tremendous arguments but I know it's my parents and, you know they're for everything I'm for it. I know I wouldn't be if it wasn't for them because you know the whole atmosphere I was raised in and everything all their opinions, you know I learned about these things and, and there are other values that you have that, you know influence whether or not you believe in equality and things like this. And so, you know I noticed mainly basically because of them, probably how they thought. I ever had the consciousness that could accept ideas like this. = So even though your father takes pride in playing the devil's advocate, you feel that really is the supportive background that you've had at home that has enabled you to be as you are. Annie, what do you find at home? - Well, I find the same sort of teasing well, my parents, my brother, relatives. they like to tease you. They, you know, it's all in good fun. I don't think that there's any, you know there's no great battle debate. In maybe in some extreme things we disagree, but basically they agree with the belief in equality between men and women. I have to say I was raised in that same sort of atmosphere, like ever since well, I can't remember a time when I wasn't, oh, you know, I've always been pushed to go on to college you know, establish myself as an individual you know, don't, don't get married quick and be, play the role of housewife, but you decide what you want as an individual. Get a profession if that's what you want. All of, there are four girls in my family and it's been that way for all of us. And so I think that an atmosphere like that is conducive to developing feminist ideas. - Marren, what's your situation? - My dad has always been, you know, just right behind me. He's always told me that I can be whatever I want to be, doctor, lawyer, brain surgeon, grave digger, anything. And my brother teases me. He says of woman's place in the kitchen. And he firmly believes that a man should be the one that goes out and runs the family. I don't know how much of that is teasing and how much he really believes. Probably less than he really believes, but that's just him. - You have to work on that. - I do. - You have fertile field, right in your backyard. Well now what do you see as being some of the ongoing concerns with the women's movement that young feminists ought to be concerned about? What should you and your peers and your friends who are of any sort who are interested, what should you be concerned with? What are some of the issues for young feminists? - I think as a feminist within in a school system, elementary, junior high and high school, we can concern ourselves with discrimination within the school and try and change that specifically within athletic departments because there's a great deal of discrimination economically in high schools, junior highs too. Also in the area of career education they have a habit of always portraying the man in the stereotype role, the woman in the stereotype role. I was at a grade school two weeks ago where my own sister's in third grade. And we went with the French department to try and drum up some interest and get increased enrollment. But our school district has been real interested in careers education as has I think, a lot of the United States in the past couple of years. And so they started a program in it and they have all these little posters around the room and we saw the posters, man in the law enforcement role, fireman roles, doctor role and the woman played nurse and teacher. They start them right off in third grade, first-grade with the stereotype roles and sort of limit their career their ideas, their associations from the very beginning. I think that can be changed. - That's certainly, one of the good ties right in with what Marren said about her first grade books, because the traditional elementary school texts have been very stereotypic in the ways that they have portrayed careers or the, more specifically the way they have portrayed men and women in their roles. Men on the job, the woman standing at the kitchen sink with an apron. - I know back in Lawrence right now we've got a couple of things going on that you should be if you're a feminist you should be concerned with or if you're at all interested in what you can do right now. In the Lawrence schools, there's been a lot of interest especially in the last year or two among the girls in having some sort of an athletic program. And the reason they say we have is because there used to be interest and we used to have one many years ago and the interest has dwindled off. Lately in girls , which is just, you know setting up teams within the school who play with each other. There's just been, you know tremendous number of girls involved and they've won, they've won some other programs and they've won in more than volleyball and basketball and a couple of other sports a year. They've won in teams and there's the talent for it and everything. And so some of the principals and gym teachers went to the school board and they talked to them about setting up a program. And the school board was, you know, I guess they thought it was a pretty good idea and everything but they wondered where the money was going to come from. From what I got from reports at the meeting, there was no mention of just taking a little bit of money off the boys for a while to start setting up a girl's program, where to get that money, you know. They said we don't have the money. We can't set it up. Another place is, not career education, but in the shop at home home-ec classes. - Career offerings in terms of classes. - And your lab tells you can take any course you want, and there are girls in the shop classes, you know, but I know that some of the other schools, but you're allowed to but it's completely, you're completely encouraged not to and nobody does. - I read in the newspaper recently, that's been a really hot issue, hasn't it? - Yeah, it has there been all sorts of articles written into the paper ever since they had an article in the paper showing that boys seventh grade class they're required to take where they build model houses and things like this. And the girls take a home-ec course which they learned sewing, cooking, and they have some things where they learn how to plan a house when you grow up and, you know nutritional needs of a family and things like this pretty, I didn't join the course too much. - You did learn something out of it, but there's been things written into the paper about a course for both boys and girls that they can take and learn all these skills. And there's been a lot of interest in that. - So these things are now and these people are really talking about some threats of community. - We have a lot of career education in Lawrence too but there's been, there was no stereotyping in all of my career education course. - You mean, it was stereotype-free? - Yeah, it really was. - Really a lot of opportunities and different kinds of role models for both men and women presented. - There was not that much presented at all. You really just went and you picked out this great big file what you wanted to be and do, and you researched it. - Hm, I think probably one of the problems with that is that the companies that produced the, like the visual aids and things for career education programs are at fault because they're the ones that place the men and the women in the stereotype roles. I don't think it's like at our career education, our career fair at the school, it wasn't divided up, you know, sexual roles. Anyone could find out about any kind of opportunity. - That really surprised me though because I'd say about 50% of the people taking shop at Bryant school are girls. And let's see, there are a couple of boys taking home-ec, I don't know, you know, and I just did it voluntarily because how many boys know about sewing and cooking? - Our school is set up a, I think it's a semester program it's called bachelor living or something like that, where it's a specific class for boys to study. Well, it's home-ec for boys is what it is. And it's an individual class for them. So that isn't an advancement but it is segregated. It is a segregated class. - Yeah, you do wonder why these classes couldn't be taught together. - That's when we were discussing this in student council that's what my objection was, and if they set up program for that, they ought to set up a condensed program for girls in the shop area. But no one seemed to like that idea. - You probably need to get more people interested. - Yeah, true. - But, well, what are your particular career plans? What do you hope to do in the long run? What are your life goals as you see them at this minute, Morna? - I change my mind fairly frequently although not as frequently as I think most people do. For a long time, I wanted to be a lawyer. And I guess I gave it up when I saw what happened to all the lawyers involved with Water-gate everything. That's was about the time I gave it up. And I think now I'd either like to be a biologist or a school counselor or a psychologist. - Okay, Annie, what do you hope to do? - I have no idea. Easiest stance, right. I was very interested in medicine. I wanted to be a doctor and major in French and then go work in Africa or something like that but, found out that wasn't my profession. I, you know, I just don't get along in that area. So at this point, I don't know what I'm going to do. Just get an education. - People here around and don't be limited by sexual stereotypes. - Don't worry, I won't. - Marren? - I'm still interested in law. I've had that since I was a little girl. I wanted to be president of the United States when I was in second grade and I've changed my mind because there's really no sense in doing that. But Watergate has really turned me on because like I see there's a need for more honest lawyers than there are, instead of doing the opposite. - Well, listen, we thank you all very much. We have been joined tonight for the program by three young feminists talking about their concerns and how they became aware of the women's movement. We thank you very much. Morna Orsh, Marren, Annie. Thank you for coming and stay tuned next week for another program on a feminist perspective. Goodnight.