- Visit other schools, and-- - This is a tradition for a relatively brief period in the history of the world, but usually when that term is used, it means one who's not interested in anything other than a-- - Special graces. - Right. - Special graces and finding a proper man to marry, and getting married and living happily ever after, which fortunately some people do, and hopefully many do. But how, if you agree, that this is the image that many people do have of sorority women today, I'm curious as to how you feel this came about. - I think as, just as sororities grew to include more women, and a larger percentage of women in general, they also included a larger percentage of women who weren't verbally interested in women's rights, as well as those that were, so now I'm not so sure that the percentage of people who are interested is any less in sororities than it is anywhere else. And also there are members, each house is composed of all different types of people. There are members who are passively interested in women's rights, but not verbally and not active in it themselves. So it's really hard to say. - By women's rights, let's define that too, just what you mean, are you talking about equality of opportunity, legal justice, economic justice, social justice is kind of thing, you're not talking about, do you have any radical feminists in sororities, those are what change the entire structure of the society? - Not now. - I don't know if any, in particular I think there are those who feel very strongly about the women's movement. Just two examples, Judy and I, but, I think, I don't know if anyone who is politically that radical. And I think those feminists who do want to restructure the entire system are radically politically and not only in a feminist way. And I don't personally know of anyone in this sorority system that is that radical, but that's, and I certainly don't know every sorority woman at KU or across the country, - Pam, do you know if any woman who may feel this way now, who at one time was a part of a sorority, either as a pledge or as an active? Or do you think this is more something that would cause her not to want to participate in a sorority? - Yes, I do know of some women that feel that way, that are various mentioned, the women's movement that have decided not to go through Rush or have pledged, and then received negative pressure or whatever, or just felt that the majority of the women in their chapter did not understand, nor, you know, just they just didn't fit in, you know? - I think it's hard to define radical too, - Yeah I know, the way I feel, some people that I live with think that I'm radical, but there are those I live with that don't. So it's really hard to say. - I'm bringing this issue up because I want to distinguish very clearly between the radical women's movement and the movement towards equality of opportunity, and do this of course on every occasion, so that's plausible, so that if any question that I ask concerning it, what I'm talking about, is a movement toward equality, about equality for all citizens, which we refer to as the women's movement, and the erratically women's movement, that I do not mean to put down, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm not using it, using this term, but if they-- I still would like to know what your opinion is as to how this image arose, which would make it possible for the woman you were talking about, a moment ago, to decide that there were negative pressures against her making use of her own talents, to do a formal life of her own as an individual, how this came about? - Well, I think most people who've used sororities from the outside, see and hearing about nothing but the parties, the engagements, dating, this kind of thing, that's the basic image that people have of sororities today. And I think it's unfortunate because it's not an accurate image at all, but I know for a fact just from my experiences this past year in my position that this is a very definite opinion that many people hold. - Well what about the women who have been registering this summer to go through Rush, do they raise questions like that with you when they come to talk about that? - No, not very often. - Or in the previews, did they ask questions about? - Hey Taylor, don't you feel that people were a little more set in this tradition, as you said it, a few years ago, and then people began to think of sororities and women as individuals more in a few years ago, and that's when this change became more effective and people began to feel this way, and then at this point, people felt there were radicals, so to speak, and now they're a little more familiar with it, and this is not, maybe alumnist so to speak, are not so afraid of this thing, and there isn't as much of that now as there was possibly. - I think with the people that we talk to about going through Rush, there are people that ask questions about a lot and different interest areas. So that in our main point, which is really valid, is that in each house there are so many different types of people involved in so many different types of things, that if they want to become involved in it, they have the people right there to use as resource persons. - Now, as the chairman of the Rush committee, would you mind explaining, what do you mean by going through Rush? - The Rush process is a series of house parties, open house parties and invitationals, which women attend. And then after attending the houses and the girls make mutual choices about where they want to decide to live for the rest of their college career. - Now, when you say live, it should probably also be pointed out that's the way things are here, but that's not really what a sorority is, is it? Would somebody like to distinguish between a sorority and a house? - Choosing members, in other words, is that what you mean? - Well, a sorority is, the local sorority is a chapter of a national organization, and - With or without a house. - Right, some campuses do have chapter houses, other campuses will have suites, or perhaps a residence hall that is called the Panhellenic Hall, and call this kind of thing, - Or nothing. - Or just living perhaps, nothing, you know? Maybe a room in town and that's about it. Others might have a Panhellenic building, where they all have chapters rooms, that kind of thing. - So people obviously join for other reasons than using a-- - Right. - All of this probably was a very important aspect, and it's certainly important in the schools that have the houses, and it was probably a very important aspect of the original founding of these groups, since it couldn't have been easy, I mean there weren't a whole lot of other places all that-- - Like local. - What changes do you folks see occurring rather than the ones that you have mentioned as a result of the kinds of influences that are going on today? I presume that you would all agree that are basic changes that are happening now, people's definitions of themselves and they're insistence on defining themselves as they see fit, what's right to them. - I think one of the main misconceptions that we still get, as you mentioned in previews when we had incoming freshmen here this summer, as well as in some of the people that we've talked with who are going to be registering for Rush in the fall, in terms of living in the houses, is it true that sorority still have hours when nobody else on campus does? And I think that this is one area, certainly, the freedom to govern your own individual living unit, to any degree that you want. As it stands now, sorority is like any other organized living group on campus, do not have any restrictive closing hours for women, so that the women who do live there think about it and decide the way that they want to run the house, both in terms of any kind of governing and in terms of programming, as well as down to the details of how you select the roommate that you're going to live with and for how long. And I think a lot of just the environmental things have changed as a result of overall attitudes about women as being responsible human beings, capable of making decisions, and handling things for themselves. - I think that's reinforcing too, the women that, like, if they get an office in the house, and they do an effective job with it, they've reinforced their own belief that they can do it. And also by becoming involved on campus, they begin to enjoy it and want more of it and after college is over, they continue to be involved in all kinds of things. Another concept that has changed a great deal is that of housemother, many sororities, especially on our campus, still have someone in that position of housemother. But now they may very well be called house directors. And instead of being the mother to a large group of girls. the surrogate mother, or whatever, they are responsible for food service, supervision, for managing the other kinds of staff, custodial staff, maintenance staff, whatever, and they are interviewed by, in most cases, a part of what you were discussing, corporation boards and active members of the sorority, and they are hired individuals who are a part of the house and certainly have friendly relationships with the girls, but they no longer are the chaperone for all the parties. One campus house has hired a young couple graduate students to direct their house for this year, to see how that works out for them. - And that's the first time that this has happened on campus? - In sororities. - Does anyone else have anything-- - Well, I'd like to go in a little bit more on what Linda was talking about. As far as programming goes in chapters, I think this is something that is not-- does not receive very much publicity, for instance, in my own chapter, I know the scholarship chairman has decided to have a series of discussions next year, when we would have guest speakers come in, for instance, having someone come in and talk about human sexuality, she's already scheduled someone to come in and talk about the equal rights amendment. And these would just be short things after dinner, but these are the kinds of things that, you know, people don't realize go on in sorority houses. That people don't even realize that sorority women are rewarded for their scholarship, that good scholarship is encouraged, and this kind of thing. Also the philanthropies of sororities, all national sororities have tremendous philanthropy projects, as do local chapters. And these really don't receive that much publicity, but are very, very important aspects of sorority living. - Do we have anyone listening, who went to school, in, I'd say in the fifties, they may be wondering about some of those statements, because scholarship then, was defined somewhat differently, wasn't it? - The 60s, right. - How is a scholarship promoted, do you recall? - Study hall. - we don't have that anymore, no. - I think we can also add that the scholarship program is broadened in another area too, and this is in the area of career education. A lot of the chapters are moving in this direction and, - There is no training, and, - Right, and letting the members know what vocations have openings, which ones are closed and gutted, and also letting them know how to get into graduate school, how to apply for a job, that sort of thing. - And encouraging them to look at all the deals instead of just the few that have traditionally in it, - Right. Well I think one thing that is real important that a lot of us as alums have received a real challenge from the younger generation in the past few years, and it's been great because I think it's forced the nationals and the alumni groups into not just sitting back and managing the houses, but feeling that there really is a need and looking into leadership training and all these things you're talking about, and this is what is making the sororities into something more, and so that they have more to offer, I mean I think they do so much more than they used to back in our day, that is it. - There's a very interesting change that's taking place in magazines, that anyone who's followed this far quite awhile couldn't have been able to notice, there are some articles of real substance now, plus the fact that-- are they still using this common article occasionally, where quite a number of groups are publishing their own magazines, where an article has been researched by someone, an editor, I haven't noticed in the last few editions, was that there was something, and that the initial analytic got together with all the editors of various magazines to give wider dissemination to some articles of hers, real Simpsons calling attention to very real problems. You mentioned, several times mentioned the national organization. What is the role the national organization can and should play, in regard to the local chapters? - I guess maybe I should answer that one. Well, the national organization serves as a co-leading and advisory body to let chapters know good ideas that maybe other parts of the country are experiencing, things that are going on in other campuses, charting trends across the country, so that they can see what might happen on campuses where they have other chapters. Furthermore, the national acts as a resource, they have a lot of very, very well-qualified national officers to help the girls change their programs and scholarship, change their programs on fraternity education to keep up with the modern times. And also they have terrific financial reserves. If one of our chapters does have difficulty, they can call on the national for loans, for support here, to keep them going for a short period of time, until they get over this, it's a resource basically. - And have you in your experience seeing change, as such as Mrs. Bodine has mentioned in the role of which nationals play? - I think so-- for example, most of the nationals now have collegiate members on their national executive board. This is a fairly definite change, so they are getting input from the local level from the collegiate level. There's a lot more field work, we're sending out a lot more what we call field secretaries that visit the chapters, just a lot more work in this direction, and also coordination of leadership training, leadership schools, and this sort of thing, so that all of our, we find then, all of our chapter presidents do have some basic background on how to Rush, how to organize their group, how to keep a financially sound group going, this sort of thing. - Well, have fun before we go on to another question for facial identification. We'll return now to a feminist perspective, our topic tonight is sororities, and we've talked about quite a number of things, and we want to invite again anyone who is listening to call with questions or comments. And we'll continue by asking if everyone agrees that one of the goals of a sorority is to develop self-determined, self-confident women, free from sex role stereotypes, which is our general objective for college women. In what way does the sorority play this role? Or is anyone, why would someone who had joined and lived in a sorority house for let's say three years, this happens at the University of Kansas, have an opportunity to graduate as a more self-determining and self-confident person, than she would have been if she hadn't joined? - Well I can use myself as a personal example. I don't think that I ever would've been able to lead a group, to write a business letter, or these kinds of things without the kinds of experience that I've had in my own chapter as vice chairman, and of course in my position now, I think that sororities are one of the most easily accessible ways for college women to gain leadership experience. Of course there are many other opportunities, but by and large, even today, it's unfortunate but true that still the student body president is a man, and the vice president may be a woman, but you know, the yearbook editor is still a man, this kind of thing. But the president of the sorority is always going to be the woman, the vice chairmen is always going to be the woman. And these kinds of experiences are just invaluable and learning how to deal with people, how to work with adults, people of all ages, this kind of thing. And it's excellent experience for any woman. - I think you've got some other ideas on this subject? - Well I think also they learn, they get all this experience, but they also get it in other capacities. For example, they get tremendous amount of experience that they'll use later on in all varieties of careers. One I'm thinking about in particular would be in business. Those who are treasures of these organizations, particularly as they're organized here at KU, where they're maintaining large houses, maintaining stats, learn how to budget, they learn how to handle money, essentially they're running a business because these houses have to be run on a business-like basis, and they get just invaluable experience that would give them more initiative, and more confidence when they go out into the world. - And they'd hire a man accountant to do that for them? - Quite often, they hire an accountant, more as an auditor, but in terms of actually telling the girls that they have to spend their money this way, it's not necessarily done. Girls have their choice. - There is a recent article in one of the national sorority magazines, called "Women in Transition in the 70s". Is this interest typical for sorority national, in your opinions? - I don't know how particularly typical it is. I know that every sorority magazine always has articles about outstanding alumni in various careers. And this would be the main thing that is typical in every sorority magazine. I think this particular issue of that magazine was somewhat unusual in that the entire magazine was devoted to the women's movement and various aspects of it. But almost every issue of every magazine you will find, perhaps examples or goals that the collegiates can look up to, as far as, you know, outstanding women in activities. - We have a caller, go ahead. - My question is, don't you feel that excessive alumni control of the local chapter inhibits chapter diversity, racial mix, and radical settlements in the local chapter? - Hello? Would you come in please? - She already asked a question. Ask her to repeat it. - Could you repeat the question? - Could you repeat the question please, I can't hear you. - Hello? - Hello? - I believe I heard part of it, it had to do with alumni control, and that was all I heard. - Yeah, she asked if it didn't inhibit the racial mix, and what else, - Probably programming aspects or this kind of thing, or perhaps alumni pressure not to pledge certain individuals, this kind of thing. I believe that's what it had to do with. - Would you like to comment on it? - I think here again, this is where we've had many changes at the national level, in all of the sororities. There isn't as much alumni current control as maybe there was 10 or 15 years ago. Many sororities require no mandatory, what we used to call recommendations, which basically are letters of introduction. So that the girls on the college campuses know who might be coming to school, and who might be interested in Rush. These are not no longer in many groups mandatory, and the girls are more or less on their own to decide who they wish to pledge, and who they would like to live with them. I think perhaps this might vary from campus to campus site, we're speaking strictly of KU, by and large, - But not when we're talking on the national level. - well, that's true. Well, as far as the regulations go, is requiring references, and this kind of thing, that is for the national level, perhaps there is more direct alumni control from the local level at other chapters than there is at other campuses than there is here. I really couldn't say. - You know, it's one thing to talk about control, And another thing to talk about an advisor promotion, an advisor is not a controller of what happens, regardless of what that person's point of view is. Anybody else have anything? - I think that's another misconception, and I think oftentimes when people become advisors, they feel that it's their job to control, which isn't true. If an advisor is in a capacity to-- more of a continuity kind of thing, in other words, just to familiarize your officers, and girls with where they certain structures, they have structures locally, with local alums, Panhellenic in your national structure, and it's a matter of learning these different regulations and rules and IBS and kind of stay within them that I don't think any advisor or any alums are in a position to really control the chapters, and I don't think that this is important that they don't, that would defeat any leadership training you're talking about, and that's what I saw of that. - I believe also our caller touched upon the racial issue, and I think, although this is not, hasn't been really in the forefront in the past couple of years, I think it is an important one to talk about. I would want all of our listeners to know that every sorority at KU must sign the statement, that was formulated by the Board of Regents in 1968, saying that they cannot have any discriminatory clauses by race, color, creed at all, And that all of our sororities follow by this. However, we have not had any black women register for Rush here for two years, I believe. And so it really hasn't been an issue in recent history. - You might also add Pam that there are several organized black women's sororities on this campus at the present time. They are not apart of Panhellenic, and they do not have organized living groups such as the sororities of the Panhellenic association do, although one in particular that I know of has kind of informally organized in a section of a residence hall, so that they do to try to live together. - And to clarify that, we have two, there are not several, there are two such groups. Pam, when you say that every group must sign the statement, which of course is true, any other kind of group-- - Yes, any group. - Would you sign the general approval of that, or would you say what's the statement, do people feel forced to do that or really believe in it? - I think right now, that it's not an issue, I can't really speak of what happened in 1968, when everyone signed this, and perhaps it was an issue then, maybe you all would know more about it than I would. - Well it was more of a problem of making sure you got the right officer, national officer to sign it. Not that it was contrary to your beliefs or anything, it was more going through the motion of making sure the right person signed it, so the university understood that there was no discriminatory clause, but in most cases, this wasn't a matter of changing any constitution or anything like this. - I think in one of the sororities or one of the constitutions, or to that effect, or I was thinking about, my experience with college women, I think it would be very little support for any kind of, in fact, I couldn't think of any support at all, for a kind of restrictive clause, that only certain kinds of people could be asked to join. Is the caller still with us, do they have other comments or questions? - I think she hung up. - Our number is 864-4530, and we hope we can hear the questions because we certainly want to respond specifically to your questions and comments, and we're not sure if we heard all of that one. But, at one point, that you referred to such people as chapter visitors or traveling secretaries, so, sorry, could you tell us so, by what criteria national organizations choose as your leadership, or how'd you get in on something in the sky? - Well, usually a girl who's going to graduate from college has the opportunity to apply to be a field secretary or a traveling visitor or whatever, traveling delegate, whatever, their national pin is to call the position, and this basically is a position where she spends a year going around the country, visiting the chapters of her national, giving them ideas, and essentially advising them. These are gals that are maybe one, possibly two years out of college. They tend to be gals that were presidents of their chapters, mainly because they have experienced most of the leadership functions and have at least overseen the other officers so they know how different officers are supposed to function in their capacity. This isn't a necessary condition, but they are interviewed, different nationals will do it a different way. Basically they are interviewed, they're asked to write essays on why they want to do this, just learning to be gals that have real pleasant personalities, that like to meet a lot of people, that like to travel, and also have some leadership capacity that they're gonna impart to others. I think one of their real important functions and what I enjoy about our field secretaries, is that when they travel from school to school, they bring ideas to you from your own chapters on other campuses, so that each chapter gains more of a feeling of the national sorority, and not just the chapter house on their campus. - I have noticed too that many of them have a course at their visiting chapters, develop a tremendous interest in some real scholarship, and do go on for professional scholarship, graduate school perhaps had that objective all along, but some have told me that they can gain this through a result of other people they met as they went from campus to campus. We went through really quite a long fortunate period in our sororities, but wherever women were, we were setting up a lot of rules and regulations, special for women, do any of those still exist? - How do you mean special for women? - How they're different from those for men. Well, our show was I think was a rather one at KU, where women-- - When you locked down, where they could go in and, - They had to be in at a certain time, but for a long time, women had it after men had it, and, - Did you go to school for regulating-- - Didn't they used to have commencing at KU and-- - And remember, and they didn't have any tools of our women-- - That's true, you're right, that's-- - So they were very special for women, they needed protection in a way that you didn't. They probably do need protection-- - Than anyone else, any other women at KU now. - There certainly are still schools that do have regulations, but this is contrary to the law now, for any school that accepts federal funds. I want to ask you a rather esoteric question, as you know, the guidelines for title nine, of the education amendments have not yet been published. So we've spoken on these programs before about title nine, but they, one of the things which will become a question, or which is a question, is, should there be, if you want to remove all discrimination, should single sex organizations be permitted to exist? What's your opinion on this? - I have very strong opinions about this. I can, I just have a vision in my mind, of if this were to pass or whatever, or if this would apply to fraternities and sororities of groups joining together, perhaps a fraternity and sorority joining together to, you know, so that this would not happen, you know, so that they wouldn't be against the law. And then immediately all of the men would be in the leadership positions. The women would be dusting the furniture, and this kind of thing. And I honestly believe that this would be what would happen. And I think it's very sad, - You think that women are normally dusting around here? - hopefully not, but I can see this kind of thing, or at least these kinds of pressures being on the women, you know, to desk the furniture, and the men would be president, and the kinds of leadership positions that we were talking about before and the opportunities would be thrown out the window. - How do you feel about professional fraternities, in respect to this? You mentioned 580 Kappa a hearing, of course that's long since been open to both men and women, but there are others, in some other fields that definitely have a connection with future opportunities. Should they be allowed to exist? - I think in some instances, in talking about professional fraternities or even honorary fraternities, there are some which are specifically for and limited to women, which provide a means of recognition or opportunity that might not, and in the past have not been available to groups that included both men and women, they tended to be dominated by men in both numbers, as well as in the leadership capacities Pam has been talking about. - Now that did of course happened, without the consent of women too, which is another reason of course for increasing their awareness, a suit has been filed against one professional fraternity for exclusion of women. It will be interesting to see how the court decides this. And of course, the junior team of commerce is somewhat similar to that. You know, there are two now, who are biding their national ruling against the admission of women. You see this in is different from other civil rights issues about excluding people by race. Or do you see it as exclusion at all? - I just think it's important right now that these groups have a chance to function for their own purpose, and for the purpose of their own members, the women's organizations in particular, especially now, the chance for them to define their own purpose and to carry that out as a group of women. - the education amendments define an organization-- are concerned about organizations that have an educational purpose. You would not, any of you I presume, be willing to say that there's no educational purpose to the sorority. - No, there is. - Then this is one of the issues which will have to be joined of course, at some point, and that those who have opinions on it should be prepared to express those when the guidelines are first published. Because I can ensure that this is one of the issues that will have to be dealt with. Are there other things in the few minutes that we have left that we haven't talked about that you particularly want to discuss? - I think one of the important things I want to bring up that Pam might want to come in on too, is that, just the responsibilities of a woman or a group of women within a chapter house who have feminist views and what their responsibilities are towards the rest of the women in their house, I know for me, I like to think that maybe I can just open some people's minds up to realizing what their different opportunities are and explaining different alternatives, if they accept them or not, I don't care, as long as they at least take a view of alternative choices, that's to me, one of the most important things, I don't know. - And would you agree again by way of definition that when you use the word feminist, you don't want to be the tenants of any, any feminists, male or female, is that people should make their own choices and that, but you cannot make a choice if you're not aware of the alternatives, and that once you are aware of them and you make a choice, no matter what someone else likes it or not, whether it's totally traditional, traditional in the 17th century, or to be traditional in the 21st century, it's still that individual's business to make that choice. - I have a comment on this, in terms of I've known Judy now for almost a year, and the changes that I have seen in Judy, and in terms of her way of thinking, have been a large part I think been affected by her association, and her working relationship with the Panhellenic organization. It's an increased awareness as you deal with women, as to what are the issues which are sensitive to them, and the things that you learned. And I think you would agree that you have changed through this experience. - Yeah, for sure. - I see this as a busy change, which is something which is really different that's been happening in colleges now, from what was true even 10 or 15 years ago, people are becoming aware much earlier, our grandparents in 1950 became aware alright. Became aware rather late, I mean sometimes it was a terribly frustrating experience for them. And we just simply have a larger percentage now whose awareness is aroused earlier in their collegiate experience, in my opinion. - I've been really quite encouraged in my own chapter with the response that the feminists of the chapter, you know, have gotten from other members, many of the bull sessions, so to speak, you know, late hours, are not just about, you know, who so-and-so is dating, but about issues such as abortion, birth control, this kind of thing. And it's really encouraging, one time, a group of us, 10 of us all from my chapter and one other sorority woman from another chapter got together and wrote a letter to the UDK about sexist advertising and this kind of thing, and we really had a good time doing it, and really believed in what we were doing, and just the Ms. Magazines that, you know, go the routes from room to room. And I think there's a real possibility, and a good potential for expanding women's minds in a sorority house. - I think here the alums can help also, because they can serve as role models, and just as you say, there are many different types of individuals within the chapter, there are many different types of alums, and you can see those that chose the family, those that chose the career, those that chose the voluntary organizations or political or civic organizations rather than-- - Or combinations. - Right. - And also just the chance of the women living in the house to consult the alum members, like in problems they encountered, no matter which alternative they chose. - you may have noticed in the Ms. Magazine, the little script about the instruction that was given in an administrative unit that started using the term Ms., saying that if it is the custom of the organization to use this term, please put in parentheses afterwards, whether it's Mrs. or-- to show you our continue arousal of awareness of what it's all about. We'll be back with you on the first Monday in September, at 7:30, after a short break in this program, and we hope that you'll join us again at that time for a feminist's perspective, thank you for listening.