- Well, welcome to the "Feminist perspective." The purpose of these mid-evening programs is to provide a forum for women to speak publicly on issues of concern to them, and help inform other women and men of the movement which is remaking the shape and substance of their lives. I am Janet Cirrus, substituting tonight for Dean Taylor who is in Chicago at an IAWF convention. She is national advisor to the Intercollegiate Association of Women Students, and they're starting their convention there tomorrow. This program is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Planning Center in the Dean of Women's Office. We invite you to call on our office at any time for information or to inform us of your concerns. Better yet, we would like to have you drop by in person and examine our constantly expanding women's library in 220 Strong Hall. Instead of the previously announced program on women in higher education, we're bringing you a special tonight on the Equal Rights Amendment. Last Wednesday, March 22nd the Senate passed the Equal Rights Amendment by a vote of 84 to six. Last year, the house also passed this constitutional amendment by a vote of 354 to 23. The Equal Rights Amendment will become law two years after being ratified by 38 states. At this point, five States have ratified the amendment since last Wednesday. The proposed constitutional amendment reads: "The equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States, or any state on account of sex." Before we went on the air this evening, we talked with Dean Taylor who was in Washington last week in the gallery of the Senate during this historic event, and we have recorded her conversation for you to hear now: Hello, Dean Taylor.

- Hello.

- How nice that you could call us tonight from your convention in Chicago. How are things at the IAWS convention?

- Well, it hasn't quite started yet, but the office is making the final preparations and the executive board will arrive tomorrow and the delegates on Wednesday.

- Well, we wanted to talk with you tonight because you were lucky enough to be in Washington DC last Tuesday, March 21st, when the Equal Rights Amendment was introduced and passed there. What was the tone and the mood of the gallery at the Senate on that historic occasion?

- Well, I was there on Wednesday when it was actually passed on the 22nd. You know, the debate began on the 21st, but there was just the dealing with three amendments, all of which were defeated. And on Wednesday, I was there all day, heard the entire debate, and the tone was one, I would say, or the mood was one of expectation. I think most the people who were in the gallery were there because the debate was on the Equal Rights Amendment. And we perhaps weren't as tolerant as we should've been of the opposition, that Senator Irvine was making, but of course that's his right as Senator, and the obligation of everybody to listen to all sides of the debate.

- I'm sure that many women who've worked actively in the women's movement were there. Would you tell us who some of the women we might know were there on that day?

- Well, I don't know how well known these people are, but there are many organizations that have been working now for a long time, there were representatives of AUW, the American Association of University Women. The Executive Director, National President of B & PW, the Business Professional Women's Group. Many wives of Senators, Mrs. Roy, from Topeka, and Robin, who's a student you know at the university. Mrs. Mike Mansfield was there, Martha Griffin, who has been so instrumental as a Congresswoman. I was on the floor a great deal of the day. This is apparently a congressional courtesy that representatives can be on the floor of the Senate. So was Bella Abzug there most of the day, Margarie Ray Wall, a lawyer in Washington who's very active in the Women's Equity Action League was there all day. Deanell Reece, one of our former students, and now White House Fellow was there. Mr. Duncan Koontz, the director of the Women's Bureau, these are just some people that I saw, plus of course, a good many women of the press whom we know like my Myra Bar, the publisher of "Women Today," I think didn't leave her seat from nine in the morning until 4:32 in the afternoon, when the final passage came. It certainly was a historic occasion

- Was the majority of the people in the gallery were women?

- Yes, there were, there were a number of men, but certainly far more women than men. I think of course, any day of the week that you go into the Senate galleries, you're going to find some people who are just visiting the capital. I thought it was interesting to speculate on what they were thinking, because I'm not sure all of them would have known what was planned for that day, but most of them were women, and they certainly knew why they were there. There were some elderly women there who have undoubtedly been coming every time there's been an opportunity for debate on this subject for the last 47 years.

- You may well know that there is speculation that this will be introduced into the legislature in Topeka tomorrow for ratification here in Kansas. What would you suggest that local women could do in order to encourage ratification in our legislature?

- Well I think first, the most important thing is for as many people as possible to get in touch with their legislators and with Mr. Strolweik, the Speaker of the House and with Lee Smith, who's the Senate Leader, to make sure that it is introduced. Hawaii, ratified the ERA within hours after it was passed. I think I've heard all the way from half an hour to two hours, but at least it was very fast. We now have ratifications by five States already. And naturally, we'd like to see Kansas be a forerunner in this. It was a Kansan who first introduced the Equal Rights Amendment into the Senate of the United States. Senator Curtis, who was later vice-president under President Coolidge, so I'd hate to have Kansas be among the last or not get in before the three fourths of the states had ratified it.

- Well, you can be sure that many of us will be contacting our legislators tonight in hopes that this can pass in Kansas tomorrow.

- Well, I'm really sorry that I'm not there to participate in the process, but I'll try to make some calls and send some telegrams at least, and I hope everybody will do the same thing.

- Well, thank you so much for calling and we wish you and the officers of IAWS a very successful convention.

- Well thank you very much.

- Goodbye.

- Bye.

- That was a previously recorded conversation with Dean Taylor, who is in Chicago this evening, on Equal Rights Amendment. If you have any questions concerning the topic for discussion this evening we encourage you to call here to the studio. Our number is 8644530, and we would be glad to answer any questions that you could direct to us. Also with us tonight is Louise Wheeler a law professor here at KU. Louise, we appreciate you coming here tonight to be with us.

- Thank you.

- And we would like for you to tell us what you can about what ratification of this amendment would mean.

- Well, the amendment by its terms refers specifically to governmental action, that is state action, and wouldn't affect private action at all. Now the 14th Amendment operates the same way, and the government cannot deny equal protection of the laws, or cannot deny due process of the laws to individuals. This has been extended in many, many areas to activities that are only tangentially governmental. And so I think that we might find that once the amendment were put on the books, there would be an extension into the private area by using some governmental hooks to bring it in. But anyway, it does apply in terms only to state action. We can expect, I think with respect to a lot of labor legislation to see protective labor legislation extended. For instance, laws regulating the amount of weights that people can lift, a lot of the other so-called protective hours and this kind of thing would be extended to men. And for those kinds of protections that could not be extended, that really were not protections, those would be declared unconstitutional because of their distinction based on sex. I think we will find that a lot of those so-called protective labor laws are really not protective at all, but really have been a cover for denying women the equal opportunities, in-terms of employment, that men have always had. For instance, the more lucrative jobs that women have not been able to have. I think that we can also expect that military and jury service would be open to women, and especially the military service point has been a bone of serious contention in passage in both the Senate and the House. Senator Ervin I know was very worried about that particular aspect of the Equal Rights Amendment. And I think that many people who have lobbied for the passage of the amendment have expected that the draft will be gone by the time ratification is completed anyway. But were it not, women would also serve as do men, and would be able to take advantage of the same kinds of exemptions, and would serve under the same kinds of conditions as men. That is women who have small children at home would be the last to be called, and this kind of thing. And women would not necessarily serve in combat situations, just as men now do not necessarily serve in those situations. But I could go on and on in terms of alimony and child support, there are some states that make alimony something that can only be awarded to a woman, those laws would be struck down as unconstitutional. On the other hand, I'm sure that judges' minds would not be changed overnight, and that the custody of small children, for instance, would probably still continue to go to women. even though laws that required that would be struck down. One of the very interesting things is that a two year ratification, or a two year period after ratification has been written into this amendment. And I think that that two year grace period will give states a chance to make that easy transition, instead of something that's going to be rather hasty and sort of traumatic. But I think two years should give people enough time to change the necessary laws. I think underneath it all, what the amendment is saying is that sex should not be a reason for circumscribing the rights and responsibilities of citizens, it's as simple as that.

- Well it sounds as if it will have very far reaching effects in almost every aspect of our lives. I think one point that has been brought out concerning the draft is that this can also be of benefit to a woman. Certainly veterans benefits have been very helpful to me, I didn't obtain higher education and the service has been in place where many men have received training that was valuable in vocational occupations afterwards.

- I think that's quite true. In-fact, women have served in voluntary capacities, and right now a number of the entrance requirements for women into the service are set higher than they are for men. And so I think that it would open a lot of educational benefits to women also.

- I know in the press that Senator Birch Bayh, who was the co-sponsor of the bill when it was brought to the Senate, said that if one would ask a nurse in a combat area in Vietnam, if she was in the frontline of combat, she would certainly reply "yes." I mean, there are women in Vietnam today, so. And can you tell us a little bit about how this could be passed in the legislature tomorrow?

- It seems to me that if in fact it does pass, as we all hope that it shall, it would be by process of concurrent resolution, I think, between the two houses.

- Excuse me just a minute, Louise, we have a phone call. Hello?

- Hello, hello?

- I'm sorry, we can't hear you, hello?

- Hello?

- Yes, what is your question?

- I'd like to know what's the best way that we as ordinary citizens can help promote the passage of this bill through the legislature tomorrow, is there anything that we can do?

- I'm sorry, we can't hear your question, and I think they're working on getting any intros more clearly. Why don't you go ahead and discuss what the process is in Topeka tomorrow?

- Well, it appears to me, Janet that what will happen after the introduction is that the houses will vote separately, and I believe it has to be done by a simple majority of the members of each house, on a concurrent resolution that this be passed. It's unclear to me from looking through the statutory materials whether or not the governor has to sign this, but I think that it can't be done without a state referendum.

- As we pointed out earlier, five States have already ratified at this point, Hawaii within hours after it was passed in Washington. And we hope certainly that it will get through many of the legislators this year. Of course, one of the problems at this point, I believe, is that many of the legislatures are no longer in session. And tomorrow is the last day that the Kansas legislature will be in regular session, so tomorrow is the last day. Is there any other comments you would like to make on what the Equal Rights Amendment would mean?

- Well, you know, it's funny, I think that a lot of people have suspected that this might change a lot of the laws relating to sex. And it might be interesting to point out that most criminal laws would not be affected, since men and women are treated alike, but in some situations women are given longer prison sentences for the same offense than men. And as far as rape goes, there would be no change in the law at all. But as far as statutory rape laws go, I think that those would probably be off the books. Although there could be laws that did not differentiate between youngsters, both below a certain age, with respect to the sexual relations with older persons. In other words, the law would be rewritten. I believe that the Kansas law leans that way right now. In fact, there was no distinction between boys and girls under the age of 18 when it comes to that kind of thing.

- Well, we appreciate very much your coming by tonight to talk to us about the legal ramifications of this constitutional amendment. Also with us this evening, we have Marianne Thomas, and Karen Sweeney, staff members from the Dean of Women's Office, who've been trying to keep abreast of local developments concerning the Equal Rights Amendment, since it was passed last week. And they have talked to many people around Kansas, trying to ascertain what will happen in the legislature tomorrow and what we can do to encourage ratification of the amendment. The phone call that we received earlier we were able to get her question passed through in written form, and she was asking: What can women do to promote passage of the amendment in the state legislature? Karen, do you have a response for our listener?

- Yes, this is one thing that Marianne and I have been trying to do most all of today, is to try to encourage women to get in touch with their legislators this evening, several of them we understand have already left for Topeka. So you might want to send a telegram to your legislator in Topeka. If you know that he's still in town, certainly feel free to call him this evening and encourage him to vote in favor of ratification tomorrow. We've been trying to reach today women's groups in the community and also on campus. And I've also been calling legislators that we know throughout the state of Kansas, and informing them of our feelings toward the Equal Rights Amendment, and telling them that we certainly hope that it will come to a vote tomorrow, and encouraging them to vote for it.

- Jen, I have a question for Louise: In talking with Mr. Glee Smith, he didn't seem to feel that this would be on the agenda. However, we have heard that the governor wishes it to be. Is there some way, through popular demand and interest expressed in this issue that we can be assured that it will be on the agenda? I'm not sure, I imagine that if the governor has strongly urged that it be on the agenda, that he probably has someone who is going to be introducing it tomorrow. I think that probably popular support behind the governor might also impress upon the legislature our desire that it appeared tomorrow for a vote. But I imagine that he probably has someone lined-up who's actually on the floor would make that introduction if it's necessary.

- Shortly before we went on the air this evening, we did receive a press release from Topeka saying that the governor had signed a special message urging the Kansas legislature tomorrow to ratify the constitutional amendment. He transmitted to the legislature the official papers for ratification, which as Janet mentioned, was already adopted last week. And in his words, and I quote: "This amendment deals with a very basic concept of equality of rights for all persons, regardless of sex. I urge this legislature to act today, March 28th, 1972 to vote to ratify this amendment." End quote. Well, it certainly looks as if people are getting ready for tomorrow, and I'm sure many women's groups are going to use the time tonight to contact their legislators, and encourage them to vote in favor if it is introduced tomorrow. Marianne, you've been reading some of the press around the state, and what has been some of the reaction locally?

- Well, we've been very well covered I think in the Topeka capital. They had on Sunday, March 26th in the editorial page, listed some of the areas of the amendment we touch on and find those people who don't seem to be particularly concerned about it. And my wish as Lisa's mentioned, ending laws treating women more harshly in a number of criminal situations, certainly need to be done away with. We ought to be concerned about ending discriminatory admission practices to colleges and graduate schools, and to bar discrimination against women in hiring and promotions in public schools and colleges, which has been a topic of one of our forums here. Also the inequality in dealing with property management, and inequality in dealing with children should certainly be done away with if what we're striving for is more humanitarian wide. The "Kansas City Star" didn't have an exceptionally good coverage by my standards, and they were a little bit late as was the "Journal-World." But I would refer people to the Wichita paper, March 23rd Thursday, and many of the articles from "Topeka Daily Capital," I think that's what it's called, and the "New York Times" will have a special, and the "National Observer" will have a special supplement on it.

- Well thank you very much, again, I'd like to remind our listeners of our phone number, 8644530. Marianne, would you say the majority of the coverage has been favorable towards passage of the Equal Rights Amendment, or has there been some reaction against what this might mean?

- Yes, I think the majority of it has been favorable, specifically spelling out what the inequalities have been.

- I know last Friday, I believe Karen, you were talking with Maurice Kay, and he said that there was a similar bill for the state and the legislature at that time, which was was going to be a state law, very similar to the national law. So didn't he feel that this had a good chance of passage, or?

- Yes, he seemed to think that there really should be no problem at all, And certainly that women should have equal rights. I'm really uncertain as to exactly what the Senate bill was that came up earlier, it did have to do with equal rights for women in hiring and housing, but I'm not really sure about the specific details.

- I understood that one provision at least, in this session's legislature was to add sex to the job, so to speak, of the Civil Rights Commission in Kansas, thereby prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sex, in addition to race. That is now not part of the commission's mandate, and they have not been enforcing any sort of anti-sex discrimination laws. So we would be very advantageous to have their support in focusing in on that area.

- Louise, do you feel that these kinds of civil rights commissions or human relations commissions will be the place where this is dealt with once it becomes law?

- Well, Janet, it's hard to say, of course, there are federal laws now, for instance, title seven of the Civil Rights Act, but as we pointed out here, title seven just does not include women, for instance, who are engaged in university teaching, or, that kind of of government employment, and so I think it's most important to get some activity on the state side. Now, of course the Equal Rights Amendment would apply to government action. Thereby saying that a woman who was working, for instance, for a state university, would have that particular coverage. Now as to whether or not that would come up before a state civil rights commission, or the federal is hard to say. And it probably would depend upon the specific jurisdictional aspects of the commission, so.

- I think there are many states now who have state laws regarding sex discrimination.

- That's right, that's right, in-fact, the Michigan Civil Rights Commission has also enforced this kind of activity .

- We have another phone call, and we'll see if we can get this one on the air. Hello?

- I didn't hear the first part of the show, and this may have already been answered, but how do the three Douglas County legislators feel about the ERA tomorrow, and are they going to support it or oppose it, do you know?

- I'm not sure that we've been in touch with all three of them, they are, of course, Arden Booth, and Liz will maybe give a chance for people to jot this down, in case they want to contact him. Arden Booth, and John is the Senator, and John Mogul and Warren Care are the two state representatives. Do any of you have a reaction to this question?

- As I just mentioned a few minutes ago about Morris Kay, you seemed to think that it would be no problem tomorrow, but if it did go to a vote of the people, he of course said that he would not be able to predict how they would vote.

- Does Senator Booth support it?

- We have not been able to reach Mr. Booth.

- Thank you.

- Thank you very much for calling. I think as Karen pointed out earlier, many of these legislators are already in Topeka, in committee work and things, preparing for the session tomorrow. And so attempts to reach them here probably would be futile, but you could try to contact them through their chambers, or by sending a night letter to Topeka this evening. And certainly, many women will probably be in the gallery tomorrow, in Topeka. And it would be perhaps show of support for a large number of women to be there, hoping that this is introduced tomorrow in legislature. Is there anything else that you would like to encourage women to do tonight, Karen and Marianne, that might be helpful in getting them introduced tomorrow, and then passed favorably?

- I think just as it was a historic occasion in Washington, that it will certainly be a historic occasion tomorrow if it's ratified, and I'd like to encourage the people who are interested to go. We're not really sure what time it will come up tomorrow, there are some people who were speculating that it will be introduced right away at about 10 o'clock, other people are saying that it may be early afternoon before it comes out. So you may want to go at 10 o'clock and stay if it's not introduced at that time. Well I think it'd be wise just to say a word about people who think that this action is sponsored by only what they call, quote: "radical, militant women." I of course do not consider myself one, nor any of us here, nor do I think we are. And I really hope that those people, if there are any who are against this, simply on what we'll call an emotional kind of reaction level, will take a moment and stop and think about the many ramifications that will come out for the benefit of women and of female children, and of all children. I would be happy to share any information that I have, as I'm sure we all would, either tonight or through the office.

- Well thank you very much, we just received a question from a listener, who asks: "How does the language of the amendment, no discrimination on the basis, affect the gay liberation movement?" I'm not sure I have a response, does anyone else?

- Jan, I'm not really sure that I do either, it might be wise just to read once more over the pertinent part of the text. And I'm really not sure what the word sex in here would mean for the gay liberation movement. I don't really think that most of the people who even were engaged in the passage of this thought about the liberation movement at all. It just says: "Equality of life under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States, or by any state, on account of sex." I think it refers to males and females, I really don't think that it has application to the gay liberation.

- Okay, I am sorry we don't have a better response for our listener, but I don't think we really know. it's the best we can do. Well, we thank you very much for listening with us this evening. Next week, the format is going to be on women in politics, certainly of interest and pertinent to what we were talking about this evening. And we expect Dean Taylor to be with us next Monday. So we hope you will listen then. And do come by or call to the Dean of Women's office, in 220 Strong Hall, for any additional information on equal rights. We have a large amount of information from various women's groups and legislatures, and all kinds of material on the Equal Rights Amendment in our office, and certainly on many other aspects of the women's movement. But for those of you who really haven't made up your mind yet, as Marianne was alluding to earlier about what this will mean, whether or not you were in support of it or not or who just really want to know more about it, we certainly would like to have you call our office. Our number is 8643552. Or come by and look through some of the materials that we have. Well, I wanna thank our guest this evening, Marianne Thomas, Karen Sweeney and Louise Wheeler for being with us, and I think we will all join together in urging you to contact your legislators this evening, in an attempt to pass the Equal Rights Amendment in the Kansas legislature tomorrow. Thank you and good night.