- Good evening and welcome to "A Feminist Perspective". I'm Emily Taylor, Dean of Women at KU and the moderator of this weekly series of programs. "A Feminist Perspective" is sponsored by the women's resource and career planning center located in the Dean of Women's office, 222 Strong Hall. We hope that through this program, you will become familiar with some of the many resources available to you through our office. We are concerned with anything that concerns women and have gathered people and materials, to help you with questions ranging from career planning and counseling, to legal rights and current legislation, to medical services for women. I hope that you will call or come by soon, so that we can find out what's on your mind and what kinds of services you need. The goal of this program is to provide a forum for women themselves to speak publicly on issues of concern to them. And help inform other women and men, of the movement which is remaking the shape and substance of women's and men's lives throughout the world. The topic for discussion tonight is "Sex Discrimination at the University of Kansas. This is the third of a four-part series on the general subject of "Sex Discrimination in American Colleges and Universities." Two weeks ago the topic was Sex discrimination in American universities, does it exist? And I believe that our panelists indicated without much shadow of doubt, that it not only does exist throughout the university system, but that this fact is not even denied by any responsible person. Last week our topic was sex discrimination laws, court actions and executive orders affecting higher education. Tonight, sex discrimination at the University of Kansas and next Monday night Affirmative action plans to end discrimination at the University of Kansas. Our panelists tonight are Dr. Marilyn Stokstad, professor of art history and associate dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Dr. Beverly Anderson, assistant professor of business. Karen Zimmerman, assistant regional history librarian. Shirley Gillum was to be with us tonight. She is the chairperson of the affirmative action office for women. And Mary Michelson, who is the president of the KU commission on the status of women and a senior in the college of liberal arts and sciences. Now, obviously there are some reason for asking you women to be here tonight as our panelists, other than the position you hold in the university. Although even those are rare. So Marylyn, would you start out by telling us about the position you held two years ago as the first chairperson of the reactivated Committee W of AAUP and explain what all that means. - Certainly, yes. Well, as I expect most of you know the AAUP is the American Association of University Professors. And there are women university professors but for many years there wasn't a special committee with special concerns for women. There had been back in the days of the suffragettes and say it had just kind of vanished for a while. For many years it was not active at all. And back in, I think it was about 1968/69 or 69/70 Alice Rosie a sociologist, was able to reactivate the Committee W. Committee for Status of Women in the AAUP nationally. And when I learned about her activities, I thought this was something that our local chapter of the AAUP should be concerned with. Actually, the State of Kansas had been concerned with the status of women, had been a leader in the women's movement. And I have to give full credit to our colleagues down at Emporia. Because it was Virginia Higgins at Emporia who was the first person to start a Committee W in the State of Kansas. And so I think we at KU have to tip our hats to Virginia. She produced a status of women report before the rest of us did. And I met her at the State Convention, came back very inspired from the State Convention and the activities at Emporia. The convention was held at Wichita. And proposed to our executive committee at the AAUP, that we have a Status of women committee. There was at that time, that was the spring of 1970 there were a few jokes about it naturally. I think it's surprising how far we've come, isn't it? In this length of time. People don't make that kind of jokes anymore. And in fact, one of the people who teased about it has become one of our most loyal and faithful supporters too. So we got going the next year then, with the tremendous support from the office of academic affairs. - All right, now that was. Now you made your first report in 70/71? - That's right. - Is that correct? now, before we talk about specifically what the discoveries were in these various reports, we'll skip a year because we don't have time to go year by year in each one of these matters up to the present time. Beverly Anderson is now the chairperson for Committee W at the AAUP. When did you accept that position? - I really started working on it last Spring about in May. And since that time we have been trying to get more information on the status of women here at the University of Kansas. And we've also very definitely been working with the office of affirmative action, which of course wasn't established until July. And so we sorted just an awful lot of input for the office of affirmative action, for Shirley Gillum's office since she wasn't taking over until July. And so since that time, we have been continuing working on where we feel there are cases of discrimination against women as far as faculty goes. This includes, I might add that this includes faculty and librarians in the AAUP. There maybe some questions about what the university professors are comprised of. But the librarians are included as faculty people as far as the AAUP is concerned. - Now, Karen Zimmerman who is our library representative, has also been serving as chairperson of a special library affirmative action task force on women. When did you begin your work in this task force? - Well, several of us women librarians began attending AAUP. Committee W meetings of AAUP last fall. And that's when most of us reached our awareness of what was going on. And since librarians are not really classified staff and they're not really faculty, we decided the best thing to do was to begin a report of our own and just see what was happening in the library as far as women were concerned. - And then finally, Mary Michelson whom call Mitch. Who is the president of the KU Commission on the status of women. And represents a group that's been in existence the longest at the University of Kansas. How far back to go Mitch? - Well the committee we're discussing tonight, the research committee dates back to 1958. It originally started as a committee under the association of women's students. And then this committee adopted the name commission on the status of women. And then in 1969/70, the entire organization took over the name commission on the status of women. - It made it a little easier then I suspect than in those early days because when this commission was really first established as a part of the associated women students this was. They were real pioneers. And as I'm sure I've commented to some of you, are some of the very early members at the board of directors of this group are the committee itself. Have turned out to be people who have certainly have developed their talents and who are medical doctors and lawyers and college professors and are taking part in whatever interested them the most in the whole career field. I think it's a little embarrassing that the students were so far ahead of us. When you think that the women students organized in 1958 and the women faculty members in 1970, I think we really have to nod to them. - But Marylyn, I think you have to keep in mind there weren't that many women faculty members back in 1958. We were even rarer than we are today. - In fact, the first committee W had as many men on it is as women. Dale Shackle is one of the original Committee W members, Paul Willis was another one and of course Francis Ingermann. Who else was on that original list? If I can think. Oh Chris Ash from French, she was a teaching assistant then. She's teaching elsewhere, she has her PhD now I think. So that was the original group. - Thinking back to when we were students, that's not really very surprising isn't that? That the students sometimes getting ahead of-- - That's what I said in comment. Probably the students didn't have as much pressure on them not to raise questions as the faculty did. - Well I think probably many of the faculty were so happy to have had a job. - Yeah. - That's right. - Have employment that they weren't thinking about whether they were underpaid or what the situation was. They were just happy to have a job. - Now, then all of you people represent groups who have put together some figures and have looked at what the situation is at the University of Kansas. And I'd like to ask you the extent of your agreement or disagreement with statements by various people that we have seen published in the newspaper, especially in connection with the when the word was released at the women's equity action league had filed a formal charge against the University of Kansas. We read at that time, statements by a good many people, including letters to the editor that there was indeed no problem and that therefore this was a group of troublemakers and dealing with . What's your reaction to this, on the basis of what you have learned from the actual statistics and your experiences? - Well I feel that there is a problem. I'm not saying that it's intentional really, because it's just one of those things that developed. But it's developed over a long enough period of time so that the discrepancy is considerable. It's true that there's considerable discrepancy in salary ranges between departments. So it's not just a matter of women and men, but different departments have different salary. You can't even say salary scales of course, we are working on a salary scale. But also I think that women because of their interests and the workings of the academic job market, tend also to be in departments that are paid relatively a little less than certain other departments, in which women don't tend to. In the past, tend to have the same interests. But goodness, back in 1970 and 71, we found that the discrepancy was considerable. There was almost. If you just take the full professor rank, there's almost $3,000 difference in the average salaries between men and women. And of course our figures were gathered by June Michaels and Francis Heller and in the office of academic affairs. So that I assume that there figures are accurate, after all nobody could do a better job certainly. - Yeah I'm sure you're right. I think you've made a very important point that I'd like to reiterate. When we talk about salary differentials, we have to remember too that women have concentrated in relatively few fields and have really produced too many people sometimes for the market. So that in those same fields, you might not find as big a discrepancy between men and women even though it is considerable. Do our listeners know what we're talking about, when we talking about the academic marketplace? 'Cause in the same sense it's Bev's . Hold that thought, she's in the school of business, so can speak to that certainly. - Well it's based on supply and demand. In some areas of academic life, you find that there is an oversupply. And we have as many articles recently in such magazines as Time, who have said, PhD's that glob on the market. This is for specific areas and these are the areas where women have tended to go. This is where they've tended to get their PhD degrees. Is in the areas where we have an over abundance of PhDs, male and female on the market. Such as English is more very definitely. History and Education. These are three areas where we have sort of oversupply of PhDs and therefore they're trying to get just a few positions. Whereas we have other areas where there's a greater demand than there is supply. And these are the areas where very few women have tended to enter this field. And this is why there's this discrepancy, because based on supply and demand, if there's a lot of people seeking the job then the salaries tend to be lower. Because everyone's just trying to get a job. If you have very little supply and great demand, then the salaries tend to be higher. Fortunately I'm in one of the one where the supply is not great as the demand. - I'd like to see little greater supply of women PhDs in general though, in any and all fields. And I'd like to put in a little bit of an advertisement here if I might, because I'm chairman of a committee to present nominations for Rhodes, Marshall and Danforth fellowships. Now women are discriminated against with the Rhodes scholarships of course, that they're for men only. But Danforth scholarships are for people going into, hoping to go into-- - Just a moment Marylyn, I just read in the Wall Street Journal, that Harvard is planning to change that this year. - Oh really? - It is up for review. The Rhodes Scholars, they are trying to get that changed. - Marvelous, marvelous - I just read it this morning. - Oh that's just grand. - So there may be-- - They included a wider variety? - Well when the Rhodes Scholar was written, it was written for men. - Yes. - Rhodes in the will, wrote it for men. Harvard is now considering going and trying to change this for any deserving student. - That would be excellent. - So therefore there is a possibility, at least it's going to be up for review in the next few weeks, where women will be eligible for that. I've just as I said, read that this morning. Which I think is just-- - Marvelous. Of course they're eligible for Danforth and I must, I'd like to slip in right here that only one woman has come to inquire about fellowships and I would wish that more women would be interested in university teaching and would stop by my office and I'll be delighted to hand out any kind of material I have and I have a lot. That's just my little advertisement for you. - I'd like to reiterate, in my field which happens to be marketing. There are only three females coming out this year, who are even seeking teaching positions in marketing and they're in a fantastic position. They would absolutely. I couldn't believe the way everyone was grabbing them at these meetings where the placement takes place. Because there was something like 100 and some openings. Over a hundred openings and there're only three women. - That is an interesting contrast to one of the things which happened, I believe it was two years ago which made headlines with the modern language association, wasn't it? 2000 applicants and 200 jobs. - In the library of course, we don't have any lack of women graduating with a library science degree. In fact it's about a 50-50 in KU libraries right now. But the problem is that men tend to get the better jobs with the most pay. But there is no problem of having enough women to hire. - Well I nay have brought up this question of having a larger number of women because of course, this is one way that an unconscious discrimination takes place. That as we look at the faculty, there're very few women, still are few women. And of course if you don't have women qualified, you can't hire them. And so, a lot of us are trying very hard to encourage more women to qualify themselves. To set their standards high and to decide to go into fields so they really can, they can handle it. If they just believe they can handle it and they can get jobs if they believe they can get jobs. - Right, and even if it were. If their primary interest was in a field, which is at the present time somewhat overcrowded, I suspect that we would all advise them to follow their true interest-- - Yes. - Oh yeah absolutely. - Now one of the first studies that I have seen, dealt simply with the numbers that were taken from the college catalog as early, or yes as early 1969 which seems like quite a long time ago. About the only time that you could get any kind of figures on what was going on, was to read them in some public document. - Excuse me, I'm gonna have to have an exit line here because I have to leave, the racket you hear will be a closing door. Because I'm on a doctoral committee for a woman doing her PhD in history. And I have read a very very distinguished dissertation and she's going to defend it in 10 minutes. So goodbye everyone. - Well, we appreciate you coming. Mitch, you wanna tell us about some of your findings of the findings of your predecessors rather, about the departments at the University, I believe that was in the college of liberal arts and sciences, wasn't it? Which is our largest undergraduate division. What were the discoveries in 1969? - Well as you say, I had to take this directly from published material and I discovered that of 975 faculty members, 113 or 11.6% were women. And there were 30 departments that had no women faculty. Nine departments that had only one woman faculty member and two departments with two women faculty. Of course you know, it's very important for women students to see women on the faculty as role models, to realize that women can achieve positions like this and that it is not impossible. It's really an important socialization factor that a lot of people don't realize. - Mm-hmm. Now 11 6/10%, we've received the figures nationally a good many times that about at somewhere between 20 and 22% of college faculties are women. Where are all the rest of them? Is this different, this 11 6/10 percent different from what you would find in other similar universities? - Well, I can only speak from the experience I had when I was interviewing for a job, which was a few years ago before there was the desire to have a woman on the faculty. And this was the situation where, I know there were only two types of schools that would be even willing to talk to me or interview me as a woman. And these were the schools who were very, very good, who felt they could afford to have a woman on their faculty because they had the prestige established. And the schools which were so anxious to have any PhD, it didn't matter whether I was male, female, or undetermined. Because they needed a PhD to keep their accreditation. But the large massive schools as soon as they looked and saw that I was a female, wanted absolutely nothing to do with me. Especially in my area, which was business. Which has traditionally been very male oriented, but they wanted nothing to do with me. And I think that many of the people who came out, I know who came out ahead of me in the program, one preceding me was five years ahead of me. So this gives you some idea of how few of us there were. Ended up in these, shall I call them lower level schools who were after anyone with a PhD. There were a few very bright, outstanding people would get in your very top notch schools. But the large mass of middle schools would not even consider a woman. And I think this was just. I don't think they were really thinking that they were discriminating. It just would never occur to them. I know even when I interviewed, the interviewers didn't know what to do with me. They said, "We've never talked to a woman before, what should we say?" - Can you tie a-- - And it was really amusing. It was like they didn't know how to treat me. And if I would go to a school even for an interview, they didn't know quite what to do with me or how to talk to me. And it was very interesting and enlightening experience. And I think that's why I came to KU as it was one of the few schools who treated me like a person . - So what we really have is that to get to a figure like 20, 21%, you must include the junior colleges, municipal colleges-- - Community colleges. - Community colleges, whose population of women may be much higher. even than the 20%. In fact, sometimes 30 or 40. But not always requiring a doctorate too. - That's true. - And the more prestigious the school becomes, the smaller the percentage of women who are at least in the track. This 11 6/10% includes people who really are not a part of the professoriate. The assistant professor, associate professor and full professor. Now, you've already commented that the total numbers of librarians is not the problem. But rather the kinds of positions which they hold. Is that a little strange in light of the fact that weren't most librarians women not too long ago, right. - [Woman] I don't know what happened, but somewhere along the line men started going into the field And it just seems that they happened to get the higher positions. Right now in KU libraries, 80% of the women are in the bottom two ranks and only 19% of the women are in the top two ranks. Which leaves 30% of the men in the top two ranks. - And what percentage. You say 80% are in the-- - The bottom two ranks. - The bottom two ranks. How are libraries ranked? - We're ranked librarian one, two and three. With one being the lowest rank. And then there are the assistant directors, which we counted as our fourth rank. But we left out the associate director and the director of libraries. Because the figures we got did not include them. So we just counted the four ranks. - Now has there been any change in that situation? This is a situation in 1972, 73 or present year? - Well no, this. Yeah, 72, 73 and last year it was 82%. So it's only 2% difference . - Really very little change then in the last two years. Do you have any figures prior to last year? - No we didn't have a breakdown by rank I don't think. In 70, 71. The only thing we had that far back were salaries and that makes it another interesting study in itself. The 70, 71 salaries do include the associate director. And so the difference between the men and women there were about $1,200. 71, 72 the difference is only about 1,100. In 72, 73 stands at about 1000. So a $100 a year someday we'll make it. - Speaking of, how long it would take to make it? I did a preliminary analysis this summer for the chancellor. Of approximately how much money it would take to equalize salaries. And it was just an approximate figure, this was no definitive figure in any stretch of the imagination. But it came out between 115 and $130,000. It would take to equalize women's salaries. And as you say, $100 a year it's a. This would be assuming we would get everybody equal. This was an approximate figure of what it would take. So this is about what the difference overall. - That isn't as bad as I might have expected. I saw a figure from Wisconsin or Michigan, I forgot which. Which ran into the millions of dollars. - No, I think it's. Well maybe they may have more women. If they have more women, it may take more money to equalize them. But one of the things I think that had happened is that we have been hiring where we gained one half of 1% this year in the number of females being employed at the university. And I think you will find that in the last few years more have been employed and they have been hired in at perhaps higher salaries. Where there was. They realized there was under the threat of possibly discriminating. And therefore I think most of the women who've been hired in in the past year or so, have probably been given about equal salaries fortunately tend to account for it too. - Mm-hmm. We'll pause for a moment for station identification. - Here's a salute to 20 year old KANU, from the newest FM stereo station in Kansas. - We would, during this part of the program, welcome any calls and comments that you have to make. Our number is 864-4530. This is an open line, please feel free to call with your questions and the comments. In the meantime, we have talked in the first half hour about past salary inequities. Some of which are still with us of course. because it's extremely difficult to make the necessary corrections. We have talked about the shortage of absolute numbers of people, of women in professorial positions. The fact that a relatively small percentage, a considerably smaller percentage of women than are available on the market. Especially in some fields, are actually employed at the University of Kansas. And we had talked also a little about the situation which is somewhat different in the library. A so-called typical woman's field, where there's no shortage in numbers of women but a considerable discrepancy when one looks at administrative positions. In the the office of economic opportunity, categories of major employment categories that is of female utilization. One of the categories, the highest category that they list is administrative. And according to a study done by the office of business affairs at the University of Kansas in March of this year, only five of nine tenths percent of the people in administrative positions were women. And the professional technical category 16 7/10%. In the office and clerical 93%. In the skilled trades, 8 8/10%. In the semi-skilled trades 17 1/10%. Among laborers none. And service workers 11 9/10%. In each case the office of business affairs has figured out what the under-utilization actually is. And it is of course considerable. For example, 24 1/10% under utilization in administrative positions. Now there are a lot of other things of course, besides numbers and salaries that concern women. What others would you both care to comment on? But also, remembering as two or three people have said tonight. Haven't we talked about discrimination, we're not blaming any particular group of people. Not men or the present college administration or anything of the sort. We're talking about a situation that has existed for a long time in the United States. And which has obviously worsened and therefore come to the attention of a great many people who would like to see some corrections made. What are other kinds of things. Do you think that women are concerned about or you personally concerned about? - Well, one that sort of has concerned the women on Committee W, is sort of an implied, "We feel discrimination." Because we're constantly encountering why we are paid less as women, is the comment, "Women don't do research, or women don't do community service or university service. All they do is teach, therefore they aren't full rounded faculty members." And we suddenly realized that there was no research or data to back up the statement. Because we suddenly started talking and we found an awful lot of us were doing an awful lot of things. And so this is one of the things that we are going to very definitely look into this year. Because this is something, I don't know if it's a wives' tale but through years, it's sort of gotten passed along that women don't do anything except teach classes if they are a faculty member. And this has sort of been an implied type thing that's been carried along. I feel this is really a discrimination against women, unless there's some basis for it. I don't like to have people saying these type of things about me . - I suspect that part of that would come from those figures we mentioned before, a large concentration of women in what are essentially teaching institutions. And so that if you looked at the overall pattern that perhaps is true. You'd have to look at it at a particular institution like University of Kansas to know whether it was true here or not. My suspicion would be that you could match people by people male and female and come out really well. - Hopefully by next year we'll have the figures on that. - Figures on that. - Yes. - What about this whole area of nepotism? We've heard a good deal about that. Does this strike particularly at women? - Well in the library, we're very fortunate that both husbands and wives can be hired. Even though the library is considered a department on its own, there are many departments within the department, so that husbands and wives can be hired as a team as long as they are not within the same sub-department as it were. And one of the recommendations that our committee has made is that the nepotism clause be abolished completely. That husbands and wives or any relatives can be hired in the same department. Right now, the faculty handbook states that, family relationships shouldn't matter as long as one is not in a, does not involve supervision by another relative. But we felt that even this statement was a little too strong and we just not to have any statement at all. - What one hears occasionally is, "Why should two people in a family be earning money." Do you have any comment on that? - I would just counter with why shouldn't they? I mean that-- - And it's rather obvious that a lot of people do marry other people with somewhat similar interests and so therefore if you have even that departmental regulation, which I believe is not particularly honored, I think it's from people who are in the same department. And I think that's an excellent thing. But a study that was done last year by the AAUW, American Association of University Women. The responses from their membership which are the 700 or 800, most of the best schools and the coeducational schools, at least in the country was that 35% of them had some regulation concerning the hiring of members of the same family. Which means that a well-trained woman, who's a husband has an offer of a position in such a school is at a career disadvantage. Especially if there's only one university in that locality. - I think adding to that, I we find that the more educated the woman, the more likely the two of them are to be educated. - Right, uh-huh. - And we find that they tend to marry like people and this puts up a very great constraint I feel. - It certainly is not the ideal or concept of allowing people to pursue the careers for which they prepare themselves. Rather than to determine whether a person should be able to pursue his or her career, depending upon what some other family member does. - I would like to get into the residency a little bit. - Well, I have some personal experience to relate to residency problem. I came-- - You should explain, first of all, what the residency problem is. - Okay, well last year. It was a little different than it is now. But basically I think the rule stated that dependents of KU faculty and staff were eligible for in-state tuition. So since I was on the faculty or staff, I would just assume then that my husband would be allowed having state tuition. And it didn't work out quite that way . So we contested this and you know, we were fortunate enough that he wasn't working at the time. So he was indeed my dependant financially. And I think that's what finally got our particular case through. But then last spring, the registrar's office did change their policy so that husbands as dependents can fill out a form at enrollment time and become eligible for in state tuition. - And this is a statewide-- - Right. - Situation. So actually we're seeing that, through the years some progress has been made both in terms of the nepotism rules and in terms of the residency requirements. There still is a problem in regard to certain forms of residency. Michigan has now a new law that every person must be considered on his or her own merit. And this would seem to be certainly be ideal. In other words if the husband is a student and the wife is working, after the required period of time to make the wife a resident of that state. Then she may become a resident, even though he remains a non-resident. And this is a certain treating people as individual. In regard to nepotism also, two of our faculty members that are here, Dr. Harry and Juliette Shaffer wrote one of the best and earliest papers on the study nepotism rules in colleges and universities. And that's been many years ago. And during that time as a matter of fact, at least in the late fifties. A husband and wife at the University of Kansas could both be employed in different departments, but only one of them could ever have tenure. And although the rule didn't say, it was the man or the woman, you know, That actually happened. How about recruitment processes, is there a problem there? - I think there definitely is in some areas on the campus. I think some of the areas of still tend to overlook women. And I question whether this is, they just don't think about them or was that they actively overlook them? This is something that's very difficult to prove one way or the other. There are some departments which though have in the past year, are actively seeking women. I would say these are in the minority. And an interesting thing that I noticed going over with some of these figures today, was that the areas we did. Had some figures on the percentage of women graduates in certain areas and the percentage of female faculty members in those areas. And it was interesting to note that the areas where there were the greatest discrepancies between number of female graduates and female faculty members, were not the areas where females were hired in faculty positions this year . The areas they seemed to be hired in this year, were the ones where they've traditionally been hired in, not the areas where the greatest discrepancies existed. - And probably may indicate among other things, that the people who were already hiring women and having a good experience with it, were perfectly willing to consider additional ones. - Yes because we have things such as physical education and recreation, sociology, social welfare, history of art. These have traditionally hired women in education, and they continue to do so. But we find a few areas on campus, such as chemistry and engineering and a few of the others where they haven't hired women and they haven't done it yet. - We believe that. - Well obviously over recruitment in the graduate program and for students who want to go ahead after they get through a bachelor's degree. I think one of the problems there and one of the many excuses for not recruiting women is that there are so many candidates for these positions that the schools are saying that they really don't need any recruitment process. I'm thinking now specifically of law school. The tremendous number of applications for law school, they really are making no effort to recruit women. And as far as they're concerned they don't need to because they have so many applicants anyway. - That's a reminder everyone of what Dr. Stokstad said. She just told us earlier that, this is the period of time when fellowships and scholarships the process is beginning. And in addition to that, there're a lot of other processes. I have received information today concerning White House fellowships and the request to urge qualified women to apply for these fellowships, which have been very, very. Although there's never been any regulation saying that women couldn't be accepted. The actual fact is, a very small percentage of women have ever been White House fellows. Two this year, one this year. Actually it was a retrogression because there were two last year. There's something else that it has to be said concerning recruitment of faculty. It's the process that's usually called the old boy technique you know, of calling a friend and saying, "Do you have a good man to suggest for this job?" In other words, many jobs qualified women aren't even aware exist. And we have seen a big improvement in this in looking to papers like the Chronicle of Higher Education, through various professional magazines and publications. More and more jobs are being openly advertised or publicized, for those who don't like the word advertised. So that at least there's a possibility that women will be aware that the job exists before it's already filled. How about women on search committees? We read in the paper that, we're having a rather important search committee. - Speaking of, I was serving on the last search committee that the university had. I was one of two women of 16 who was on the search committee. We had a proportionate representation on that one. I am just hoping that we get proportionate representation on this one coming up. I haven't heard exactly how it's going to be chosen, but I know there will be four faculty member and I hope at least one of them is a woman. - You're speaking of the search committee for the selection of a new chancellor? - That is correct. - Yeah. - Of course we have one woman student there for sure. - Yes, but I think there should be one woman student and one woman faculty member. Unfortunately, we can't get one woman for each one, because Kansas is a little bit behind times in getting a female regent. - Well I'd like to see two women students, I don't see why we should limit it to one. - And what about the alumni? - Oh, I very definitely think that there should be-- - Or there should certainly be several women represented. More and more I believe that the affirmative action program will certainly suggest that all important search committees have representation of women. - But there's one other thing that I'd like to mention that has just changed this year. I think the people in our program are going to get the idea. A lot has been happening these last 12 months at the university, which has certainly has been. Is that up until this year, as a matter of fact this spring, if a woman felt she was being discriminated against she had no recourse. There was no grievance procedure set up for anyone. So whether she be a woman or any one who felt they were being discriminated against, other than going to the person who was perhaps discriminating against them. Which really wasn't, if you felt you were being discriminated against by your department chairman, you couldn't quite go to him and say, and think him," If you noticed I said since most of them are. And say, "I feel that I'm being discriminated against." And I feel that this is. Well, our committee I feel is definitely last year instrumental in setting up some type of grievance procedure. Because I think the administration had never really thought about it before, that there was no place to go for the woman who felt she had been discriminated against either in salary or in workload or in any other area. But this is something that just this Spring has been set up. And starting in May, a woman now has recourse if she feels she has been discriminated against. - Now what specifically would she do, if she felt she was discriminated against? - The first thing she would do would be to go contact Shirley Gillum, Director of Affirmative Action. And Shirley would have a meeting with her, just a very brief meeting. And then there is a list, will be a list of 24 people. These represent all areas of the university. Undergraduates, graduate students, faculty, unclassified, classified people. And this person, this woman then can pick three from this list that she would like to have research her particular case. And then these three people whom she chooses herself, will work through and see if there is actually a case of discrimination against this woman. And what they try to do is work it out informally at the beginning stages. I served on the temporary advisory review board this summer. Unfortunately we were able to work all of them out at that beginning stage at the informal. But in case something can't be done there, then this group of three represents her before the human relations board, at the University center. And if they have a regular formal hearing about what it is and then it goes to the university judiciary. But there is a standard procedure set up with various steps to resolve any problems that a woman has. And so at least there's some recourse now, where there wasn't until the Spring. Which I think is really a step forward. - We certainly would urge any woman who feels that she's been discriminated against to make use of this procedures. - Oh, very definitely. - And all she has to remember, is to go to the office of affirmative action. - That's right. - And state her case. And everything else then will follow-- - I might add, these are normally handled very discretely in the beginning stages. She doesn't have to worry it's going to get out. They're handled very discreetly in the beginning. And of course, if there's a full formal hearing. That's another but-- - Situation. - Yes. - How about the other areas of participation in decision-making? If you look at the at the governmental charts of the university, do you find very many women involved in? How about in administration, are many women involved in that? - No. - Very few? - Very, very few. Yes frankly. - As I announced at the beginning of the program, Dr. Stokstad is one of the associate dean in the college of liberal arts and sciences. And this is her first year in that position, and the first year that there has been a woman with this position. Any women vice chancellors? - No. - Any . - No. - Women heads of departments? - Yes-- - How many? - We do have, is it two? - We had two of them here-- - Yes, we just have one this year. - One, that's out of how many? Do you know? - I don't know the number. - Is it 50 you think? - I can't, I can't count them all that fast. I think there's something like 50 some departments. We've got one woman chair. That's is why I referred to her department chairman as he. - How many, do you know how many there are on the council? The university council? - On the university council there's four women on the faculty council there's only one woman. - Mm-hmm and the-- - These figures are from last year. I don't even know if we have one woman this year. I haven't got the current figures. - I believe there's-- - Alice? - One from Kansas city, yeah. - On which committee you think? - On the council . - I don't know for sure, so I can't say. There was one last year. - I know the senate executive committee has one for sure. - Is that ? - Tam . - You're right I think. - Non executive? - Yes, the at any rate regardless. The numbers are very, very small in proportion to the total number of people who are in decision-making positions. - But you can find us at the lower levels. - Oh yes, in great numbers. - You'd have to look these records. - That's what I was just going to say that if you look at women in the well the academic ranks, you find that the preponderance of women are at the instructor level. About 33% at the inspector's level. And then you move in 18% lecture. And then assistant professors is 13%. Associate Professor is 8% and full professors we have 7.5%. And that's a total of 24-- - Giving-- - absolute numbers. - Giving rise to what is now a truism, the higher the fewer in any field. I have a number of announcements to make of the interest to women. Next week, starting on Tuesday the 19th. - This week. - Oh this week? Tomorrow night. Tomorrow Wednesday and Thursday there are three programs on human sexuality, all in the union. Yes in various rooms and in the union. Again, I'd like to announce that on October the 17th, the extramural independent study center is sponsoring a one day workshop for the 21 plus woman. We urge all those who are interested in it to contact the extramarital independent studies center or any of us for further information concerning this. The purpose of the program, the workshop, is to answer the question, "How can the University of Kansas meet the educational needs of the many women in the Lawrence community, who did not go directly to college after high school or who left for career or family before earning a degree?" And in October on the 10th, 11th and 12th. A series of three programs on women in politics, culminating on the 12th of October, in Hawke auditorium, a speech by a Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm. We urge all of you to participate in these programs, to feel perfectly free to come to any of them. I'd like to thank our panelists tonight. Dr. Stokstad as you know, had to leave somewhat early. Dr. Anderson, Karen Zimmerman and Mary Michelson. And I invite you to join us again next week, when we will talk about affirmative action plans at the University of Kansas. These plans of course, are in a preliminary stage at the present time. They have involved the work of a great many people both men and women at the University of Kansas. And our guests next week will be Dr. Juliet Shaffer, who is the chairman of the affirmative action board at the university. Shirley Gillum, the affirmative action officer for women, Dr. Betty Banks from the classics department who has been a very active in Committee W. And in a number of other groups on the campus that are dedicated to the elimination of sex discrimination, and Brenda Marquette who is the acting director of the office of minority affairs and the affirmative action officer for minorities at the University of Kansas. Thank you for being with us, we hope you join us again next week. - Listen again next Monday at seven for "A Feminist Perspective."