- [Host] Good evening. Welcome to A Feminist Perspective. Our topic tonight is Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972. Most of the discussion we're hearing these days are about the Title IX guidelines, which were recently published in the federal register. But we want to talk both about what Title IX says and what the proposed regulations require. Our guests tonight are John Beisner, president of the student body and Carol Smith from the Dean of Women's office. And first of all, I think we should clarify what Title IX is, exactly what does it say. Do one of you have it before you, the exact reading of Title IX of the Education Amendments?

- [Carol] Yes, I have something here. This is Title IX, prohibition of sex discrimination, Section 901, no person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance. And then there are some exceptions list down

- [Host] But that's, that is the basic part. And I'd sort of like to go over this with you. It really says that no person, that there are three things that cannot happen to any person under any education program and activity on the basis of sex. That first of all, they cannot be, that no one can be excluded from participation in any education program or activity that receives federal financial assistance. Excluded from participation. Secondly, it says that no person may be denied the benefits of any education program or activity that receives federal financial assistance. And third that no person shall be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial aid. I'd like to ask you to, first of all, if you were, if an institution, an educational institution at any level, this applies, of course, at all levels, elementary school, high school, college. And I presume that each person depending upon the institution with which he or she is connected, is looking at Title IX from the perspective of what happens at that particular level. But go back to my question that if an institution had only that statement that both of us have just read as to what Title IX means, would it be possible to develop from that, guidelines of its own, for the institution to develop guidelines of its own that did not require anyone else to tell them what that meant?

- [John] I think it would put the institutions in a very difficult position because as we begin to learn more about what discrimination is these days, that we're discovering a lot of things I don't think were really apparent to people before, for example, particular sex roles that people were given to accept and take, some ideas that were expressed earlier that women perhaps should not go to college and perhaps should stay at home and take the housewife role. And I think some of these particular ideas are now being discouraged and eliminated in society. But if it was left to the individual institutions, perhaps some of these more subtle ideas of what discrimination really is would not be apparent to them. And I think it's required that some well-defined statement of what discrimination is should be made available to the institutions.

- [Carol] But if there was a clear thinking school, they could indeed take this statement and then go through their operations piece by piece, literally item by item and examine or develop a study that should show, and that's where the problem comes in, whether or not they have been sex discriminatory and then to develop a plan or develop their own guidelines for eliminating such.

- [Host] I find myself agreeing really with the both of you for different reasons. I would not like to think that the intelligence represented in educational institutions of all kinds is not sufficient to determine for itself through a complete analysis of everything that that institution does whether they are excluding people, in even the most subtle ways, from participation in every educational program or activity or discriminating against at one sex or the other, or denying benefits to one sex or the other. But since John is right, the schools are at all levels of awareness of these problems. And the public too is at all levels. And we have ample opportunity to observe that phenomenon. Some very clear cut guidelines with particular examples certainly would help. And I think that in a way we're all also expressing our concern, that the particular guidelines that have been issued do not in fact accomplish that purpose. Would you agree with that?

- [Carol] I certainly think so

- [Host] They've got a lot of good things in it, but on the other hand there are a lot of things which are not spelled out with sufficient, in sufficient detail to offer guidance to a right thinking person who, or institution, which has never composed of a person, of course, to there really give a consideration to the subtleties that are involved. Some schools are so far from the subtleties however, that many of us would be happy if they would get to even the things that are non-subtle. The Tocqueville is a, particularly everybody has read at some time who wrote in the 19th century about democracy in America, a subject, which fascinated him, and made this statement: a democratic education is indispensable to protect women from the dangers with which democratic institutions and manners surround them. Now that's in the early 19th century. And yet in the second half of the 20th century, equal educational opportunities for women are still not available. And we have to have a law passed, a law that you recall was passed because the subject under discussion was a tremendous amount of money which the federal government was giving to educational institutions, money which they collected on pain of criminal prosecution from all of us, men and women. So that the question naturally arises is, does any government have a right to collect money from both sexes and deny certain opportunities which this money buys, to one sex or to the other? I think we should clarify too, that Title IX is patterned after Title XI of the Civil Rights Act of 1974, which dealt with the subject of race. And I'd like for us as we discuss this to keep this in mind because it's a little difficult now to imagine that there are very many people who publicly would say we should have white schools and black schools not just schools for all the children. And yet we have exceptions built into this law making it perfectly all right to have female schools, male schools, schools that are limited to one sex or the other, actually by government election like the military academies. And the other difference, a major difference between Title XI of the Civil Rights Act and Title IX of the Education Amendments is the addition of the word educational. There's nothing in Title XI, which says that this can happen, that there must be no discrimination in educational programs and activities so that you don't have to prove under Title XI that there's any educational purpose at all, but you do under Title IX. Let's talk about what Title IX includes. What is the coverage of Title IX?

- [Carol] Okay, there are several major segments, but among those are the, lot of talk in there about the admissions of students and treatment of students once they are admitted. Employment and then procedures for the enforcement of the guidelines

- [Host] But the substantive issues actually are the admissions policies and practices, the treatment of students after they are admitted and employment. And our radio audience shouldn't understand that this is the first law which has specifically referred to students. Although there are a number of laws, of course that deal with employment. So let's look first at admissions and at the fact, oh, one other thing, the guidelines are not in permanent form. And we would certainly like everyone to understand that these are proposed regulations. So this is the general procedure for the enforcement agent to put out the proposed regulations and solicit comments from all interested citizens and organizations and that after reviewing the comments HEW will come up with its final regulations. And that must be submitted then to the president for his approval. And then they're definite, until they are submitted to the courts for, if they are submitted to the courts, as undoubtedly many of these will be, the courts will have to decide whether or not the enforcement agent put in the real meaning that Congress intended for into its guidelines. So everyone is invited to comment. There's no such thing as an official comment from a college or a school, every teacher, every student every citizen is invited to comment.

- [Carol] Please do so, if you are interested or concerned and you can do it from an organizational standpoint or an individual standpoint, it doesn't matter. We have received assurances that the comments will be individually treated whether they come with a petition or a single signature.

- [Host] So it isn't necessary to go through every item. If there's one thing which strikes an individual or an organization as something of either, either of which they approve or disapprove they should let the secretary of HEW know. Do you have the address?

- [Carol] Yes, and comments can be directed to the Secretary of the Department of Health Education and Welfare, 330 Independence Avenue Southwest, Washington, DC, 20201. They must be submitted by October 15th, 1974.

- [Host] One other thing I think, which everyone should know, but we'll repeat anyway, all comments become public property. They are on display. Some in the regional offices will be sent to regional offices. Some will be in a particular room in Washington. Anyone can go in and read, gain guidance from, get ideas from the letters which are written by other people. There will be those who will make very complete analysis and there will be those about whom just one thing really bothers them one way or the other, and they'll comment on that.

- [Carol] Even wording changes or suggested changes are welcomed. So people shouldn't think that their idea is too small or too insignificant because the people working with the guidelines will indeed read their comments. I know John's eliciting a lot of comments from his fellow students here at the University of Kansas.

- [John] Right, student executive committee this summer became quite interested in the subject and we spend a great deal of time, first of all investigating what the Title IX guidelines say, which is somewhat difficult because there's more and more material coming out, clarifying it all the time. But we have now prepared our response to it. And we have sent that to Washington and, on behalf of a group of students that worked on it this summer, and of course we've asked all the other members of the student Senate to look into it too and forward their individual comments on areas of concern. So I don't know how comprehensive our comments are but there are certain areas that concerned us.

- [Carol] Well, John, I know that one thing that you particularly were trying to stress to the people that you wanted to investigate the guidelines was that you felt they were not clear. And Dean Taylor had brought that up a little while ago, too. There was a lot of feeling in that area. Do you want to tell us more about that?

- [John] I think our main concern is that if the guidelines are not clear, you are putting institutions in kind of a double jeopardy situation that is, first of all, some institutions could be very well-intentioned about the guidelines. They do not want to be classified as discriminatory institutions. And if the guidelines are not clear they may be following practices that they feel are not discriminatory but in fact could be interpreted by a court as being discriminatory and therefore attaching some type of label to a school. That again is presuming that most schools do want to be non-discriminatory. On the second hand, there could be some institutions that in some ways can evade the purpose of the amendments because they are not clear and thereby not receive any reprimand from the government

- [Host] Because I would be more concerned about the second than I would about the first, because I think that the kind of school that you're, or educational institution of any kind that you originally referred to, who really would like to do the right thing, has two opportunities available to it. For one thing, there should be no privacy about the way in which they go about it. Everyone should know, it should all be very public and open to public debate. Then one could be sure that whatever was missed by one person would be picked up by another and then, secondly, there's always the effort, first of all, to get voluntary compliance. So it's most unlikely that anyone is going to, well there's no way in which they could lose federal funds without first an opportunity to remedy whatever it is that was wrong

- [Carol] That's very reassuring

- [Host] They, under the admissions part, the substitute part about admissions, the schools that are covered in the admission section of the regulations are those of vocational education, professional education, graduate higher education and public institutions of undergraduate higher education. With recruitment considered a part of the admissions process, I think this is important in connection with something that John originally said. Sometimes people thinking of admissions would think, well does that mean that whoever knocks at the door, we must look at their qualifications in the same way we look at everyone else's qualifications without realizing that who is recruited and where the recruitment takes place might also be discriminatory. So that comparable efforts must be made by recipients. That means recipients of federal money to recruit members of each sex. And that where discrimination previously existed, special recruitment efforts must be directed primarily toward the members of one sex to remedy the effects of whatever past discrimination has taken place. Now, that sounds good, but there are several things in there that are problems. For one thing, as I mentioned before, the idea of the of the black school and the white school is, although the practice isn't completely over the idea is not espoused so far as I know by anyone, but there are exceptions that are built in here. And I think we could have some appreciation of the difficulty of Congress and not wanting to interfere with diversity. You may comment on that, that was one of the reasons that they didn't want to say anything about undergraduate private education.

- [Carol] Well, I think that, the diversity point is very, has been a very great strong point of higher education all throughout the history of higher education in the United States. And I'm sure that this is something that the higher education administrators, as well as the concerned others are anxious to provide and to maintain now, how we maintain the diversity without being discriminatory. That's where we get into that, you know, itchy place. We, maybe we should clarify additionally about admissions, for example, an institution whose admissions are covered by the regulations may not set quotas. Okay, but, that is, they couldn't say how many men or how many women will be admitted, but a private undergraduate institution, Harvard undergraduate school could, it can, according to this law or these guidelines, but at the same time, there are, this is just one example of the diversification of higher education that is being able to be maintained under the ATW guidelines. I think diversification is a good thing. I don't know that everyone agrees with that.

- [Host] The general philosophy in the Congress, if one reads the comments that were made when Title IX was being discussed, indicated that there was a general belief that most vocational education, that is vocational not in a restrictive sense, but the way in which one learns to make a living, is at a regular vocational school, or in a graduate school or professional school after graduation from college. This we know, of course, is not true. I mean, there are many undergraduate schools that do prepare people directly for areas of, or in a skill, pharmacy, education, business. These can all be carried out, and many others, in an undergraduate education, but that exemption has been made. This is not a factor, I think, very much in the elementary and in secondary schools, except in vocational schools where we still have a number of vocational schools set up. Vocational schools for boys, high school boys and vocational school for high school girls with very different vocations taught in each one of them.

- [Carol] And usually not the latitude to go from one to the other. That's if-

- [Host] No way, if they're single-sex schools, that if something is not taught, for instance, the boy who wants to study cosmetology, for instance, probably will not find that in the male vocational school. The woman who wants to study plumbing probably will not find that in the female school. So that if it is a public institution, of course, this now becomes illegal. Incidentally, Title IX, contrary to what I have read a number of times, and I expect you have too in the newspaper, has been enforced now for almost two years. It is not something which is going to happen the 1st of January. That's when the guidelines, taken them nearly two years to do the guidelines, but it's already enforced.

- [John] That was one question I had earlier, was why it took so long to develop these guidelines. It seems that something with such impact as this would have received quicker attention. Are there any particular reasons why it took so long to develop the guidelines?

- [Host] No, I could tell you some of the things they say, the enormous complexities for one thing, and trying to think of the proper examples for another, and a general kind of societal feeling that certain things are appropriate in terms of sex discrimination. There are many things that held them up. I think it is not exactly unusual for enforcement agents to take some time because they, the courts and other regulations have treated them almost as if they were part of the law. I mean, after the process has been gone through with, you find court decisions repeatedly referring to them and saying that they are an appropriate expansion of, or regulation growing out of the law itself. Although, of course, many of us felt that it was much too long and practically every feminist group in the country, was urging in every way possible, in fact, there was even a suit filed against HEW, to force them to submit the guidelines for public comment. Since we have relatively little time and incidentally, we are going to leave one area, the area which has become the most controversial, namely the competitive athletics until the 30th of September.

- [Carol] That's two weeks from tonight.

- [Host] Two weeks from tonight we will have a program specifically on the guidelines and the regulations concerning athletics, the proposed regulations concerning athletics. And we will have as our guests, John Beisner, again, and Marion Washington, our new Assistant Director of Athletics for Women. So let's talk a little bit about the treatment of students. The part on the employment is not basically different, although there are some differences between that and other employment laws that I wish we, I hope we will have time to comment.

- [Carol] Well, we talked about admissions and so, if the student, however the student has gotten into the institution, then all schools must treat their admitted students without discrimination. I think that's the basic point to remember about treatment. And this, now we are including all schools.

- [Host] So the exceptions apply only to admissions.

- [Carol] That's it.

- [Host] If you once take members of both sexes and you must treat them equitably after they're there whether you're private or public, right?

- [Carol] That's correct.

- [Host] So what are some of the topics that are covered under the treatment of students?

- [John] One of the areas listed here is that access to and participation in course offerings and extracurricular activities, including campus organizations and competitive athletics. I think that the particular things covered here have large implications. I don't know that many schools are still segregating students on the basis of sex in course offerings. I guess the one thing that comes to mind are gym classes, particularly in high schools, which will now have to be, under the proposed Title IX guidelines, put into one. In other words, men and women will both be in the same gym classes in high school, and so on. And the same would apply to health classes. As far as university campuses are concerned. I think there are some implications there as far as campus organizations are concerned. I think the number of organizations by sex have decreased but there are still a number of honorary organizations and so on to which admission is based on sex.

- [Carol] That's right, and the guidelines state that generally a recipient, that'd be the institution, may not, in connection with its educational program or activity, support or assist any organization, agency or person which discriminates on the basis of sex. Now, however, there are two things that enter in here and they're judgmental. And as far as I can ascertain at this point, relatively subjective, and that has to do with the substantiality of the support and the closeness of the relationship between the institution and the organization.

- [Host] Yeah, so I guess it should be understood by everyone that if some organization that wanted to be all one or the other, you know, all men or all women could of course disassociated itself from a university altogether. And I suspect we'll find both things happening, that in some cases, the organization will decide that they, that the segregation by sex serves no useful purpose. And in others that it serves a very useful purpose and will prefer to remain that way. It is even possible that especially in connection with the leadership activities and some of the subtleties of bringing, opening all options to both men and women, that some will fall under the remedial and affirmative action requirements. I would certainly, for instance, from a feminist point of view, argue that they, that we have not arrived at the place where the, is that some women's organizations don't serve a very useful purpose in terms of offering leadership roles to women that are not available to them elsewhere. In some other cases, that's not the purpose that they're serving at all. And so there's no, there's no argument, really, no logical argument that they should remain single sex. We might comment on the housing, what are the requirements in regard to that though? Is single-sex housing still permitted then?

- [John] According to the guidelines here, the single-sex housing is still permissible but all other use of facilities and so on has to be, cannot be on the basis of sex.

- [Host] Yes, it has to be equitable, but there's nothing that would prevent single-sex housing. In fact, there's nothing that prevents, in fact, it's specifically exempted any kind of activity which is private in nature which requires taking off one's clothes, for instance. All those are protected under the privacy requirements of the constitution. On the courses, however, I'm afraid, John, things aren't quite as good as you may think. They probably are in most colleges but we still have schools that require girls to take home economics, for instance, and boys to take shop. This is, certainly it can no longer be required. And in some of the accounts that we've read of what schools are going to do, we can't help getting the impression that the people who are making the changes don't really understand why they are making them. Title IX is so extensive in its implications, and in its coverage that we find ourselves now at the end of of the broadcast and feeling, I'm sure all of us, that we have barely touched the surface. Copies of both the title itself, as a law itself, and the proposed guidelines are available in a number of places, but most certainly in the women's resource and career planning center. We'd be happy to have you come or write if you wish additional information. We can also tell you, as we have barely touched on today, some of the many areas which are being proposed by various individuals and women's groups of places that need a considerable amount of work done on them. So we invite you again, as we have many times in connection with other activities, do visit us or to call us if there are questions in your mind or you wish to investigate further the implications of this very important statute. Thank you for joining us tonight, Carol and John, and thank you and the radio audience for listening, we hope you'll join us again next Monday at 7:30, at which time what are we going to discuss, Carol?

- [Carol] Women in sports, a changing scene.

- [Host] Next Monday, women in sports.

- [Carol] An interview with Marion Washington.