- Welcome to Feminist Perspective. The purpose of these Monday evening programs is to provide a forum for women to speak publicly on issues of concern to them, and help inform other women and men of the movement which is remaking the shape and substance of women's and men's lives throughout the world. Our format consists, first, of discussion by our guest panelists on a topic of interest to women. And second, an opportunity during the last 15 minutes for listeners to participate by calling with comments or questions. Our number is 864-4530. This program is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center located in the dean of women's office. We invite you to call our office at any time for information or to inform us of your concerns. Better yet, come in person to talk or to use our expanding women's library in 220 Strong Hall. Our topic tonight is sexist counseling. Our guest panelists are Dr. Jean Parsons, director of counseling at Haskell Indian Junior College. And Martha Ward and Maryann Thomas in the dean of women's office. I suppose we ought really to start by defining counseling. What is meant by this term?

- [Martha] Well actually, I suppose there are really a wide variety of definitions of just what counseling is. Perhaps one of the most common definitions is that counseling is a professional relationship that a person enters into for the purpose of working through some problems or issues that he or she may be dealing with. With hope of finding some various alternatives for solving these problems in a way that may fit in most with the lifestyle and choices of that person.

- [Emily] You know, when you talk about entering into, does this mean then that both the people in this relationship have to agree to it before counseling takes place under the definition you've just given?

- [Martha] Yes, I would think that both would have to be in agreement to enter into the relationship.

- [Emily] How would you define it, Jean?

- [Jean] We might just say it's helping an individual help themself.

- [Emily] Do you have a different definition Maryann, or do you agree with one of those?

- [Maryann] No, I certainly agree with both. When people come to a point where they're not sure what the proper or the most advantageous aspect might be and it would pertain to their own individual lives, then they seek either the advice or the position of someone as a sounding board, which we would call a counselor in that respect through a counseling office or through a personal one-to-one relationship. Be it in the office or out of the office.

- [Emily] And you say they seek. It's something which has to be sought out then?

- [Maryann] Yes, I think so. It can be sought out by the counselor through someone who knows the individual, and may see that they're in a period of question if nothing else.

- [Emily] Go ahead, Jean, what were you going to say to that?

- [Jean] I was thinking that I think Maryann's point needs to be emphasized because lots of us in our daily lives are counselors. And yet, there is something that we call a counselor in a professional sense, and I think that perhaps the distinction is important so that we realize that we don't just think that counseling is done with a professional. That counseling in the sense of being a sounding board for another person is done by almost all of us.

- [Emily] Is there some evidence that the field we're really all in is better than the kind of counseling that you're talking about now, that might take place with a neighbor for example? Does it really matter? Or what makes the difference?

- [Maryann] Well, I think, Emily, it draws on the expertise and the experience of the individual. It doesn't necessarily even have to be someone who has a professional degree in counseling. But someone who has some experience in the world in terms of job opportunities and in terms of career planning. And it could be your nextdoor neighbor, but more often, particularly in university setting, we see it as someone who makes this a life goal to deal with people, and help them understand what their alternatives and lifestyles are.

- [Emily] What about age? Now, you refer to a university setting, but doesn't counseling take place in some other kinds of settings too?

- [Maryann] Indeed, it does.

- [Emily] Does the age of the client make any difference? Does it change the definition?

- [Jean] It doesn't change it for me.

- [Emily] But essentially, what really is happening when counseling takes place? All of you have talked about the general definitions of counseling, but specifically, what happens when somebody sits down with a counselor?

- [Martha] I think Jean hit on a keyword when she said the sounding board. It appears to me as it's a chance for a person to explore his or her own ideas and have something for them to kind of bounce off of so they can look at them a little closer.

- [Emily] Now, who needs this sort of thing? Who needs counseling?

- [Maryann] When I sought counseling, I sought it because I was not sure what alternatives I had and I wasn't sure what choices I wanted to make. And I wanted to make sure that I was looking at the various alternatives. I wanted help in finding, did more alternatives if I wasn't looking at all of them. And I needed somebody to listen to me and to help me think through what I was going to do next.

- [Emily] Now, you've used two terms there that I think we'll talk a little more about too. Now, one's alternatives, and the other's choice. Are there always alternatives? Are there choices available to all of us?

- [Martha] I find it hard to imagine that there are some situations where you really have no alternatives. Although, probably when a situation like that could be created.

- [Maryann] Sometimes it seems to me the individual is asking how much energy am I going to have to expend in the direction of the course that I really think I wish to pursue? And I think they come to a counselor for some sort of advice about this.

- [Emily] Yeah, now Jean told us when she felt a need for counseling. Do have anything further you want to say on that subject of the really the question of who does need counseling? Are there situations where any one of us might need it? It isn't a particular group of people or age or sex or anything of the sort is it?

- [Jean] Perhaps we could describe some conditions that bring people to counselors or bring people to think about their own situation, and to look to see if there are other ways that they could direct their life or change their life. Ways that they would be more happy with.

- [Maryann] I think that's very true, Jean. I think when people come into the office and are talking in terms of, "What can I do? Where can I go?" They're asking for someone else who maybe has a broader point of view or, at least, has had more experience to say, "Well look here. Have you thought about this. Have you thought about that?"

- [Martha] I think there's really a wide variety of types of counseling too. There's personal counseling and career counseling or educational planning. There are a number of types of counseling that a person could be seeking, although they're usually interwoven.

- [Jean]] Let's talk, maybe, about some specifics. When you say educational counseling or vocational counseling, Martha, what do you mean? Can you give some examples?

- [Martha] Well, I think in terms of career or vocational planning, this is sort of a long-range goal plan for any man or woman where you're trying to outline what you hope your future will be. And within that, of course, there would be some educational planning and exactly what you needed in order to fulfill those vocational goals.

- [Emily] So it was that in the light of vocational or personal are more for the purpose of discussion than they are reality. Since they could have all of those needs.

- [Martha] My personal condition relates to my vocational choice and vice-versa.

- [Emily] I am a little concerned about the emphasis we're all placing on somebody taking a positive act, like going to a counselor. I'm thinking, for instance, now, you mentioned career counseling. And yet, this might of course, occur at some level, like the sixth grade mightn't it? And yet, the child in the sixth grade, or perhaps we should use an even younger age, might not be familiar with too many possibilities, and not really see that he had a problem. Couldn't he be saying I want to be a fireman and that's it, and not even know what the world of work consisted of?

- [Maryann] Well, I think that's quite true. Particularly in terms of the medical profession, Emily. So often we find young women or girls, who are thinking in terms of nursing. And one of the reasons that they may be thinking in terms of nursing may be simply because their reference group are women who have been nurses. And yet, it seem though to some extent they have been let down because of the people who are not saying to them, "Have you thought about being a doctor? Have you thought about being a pharmacist?"

- [Emily] Yeah, I could even imagine a situation where the reference would not be a real nurse. Maybe they've never even seen one, but-

- [Martha] They've seen them in the books.

- [Emily] And they've also seen the little nurses' kits, haven't they? Have you ever examined a nurses' kit and a doctor's kit? Is there any difference in what's inside it?

- [Maryann] There is.

- [Emily] What is it? What's the difference?

- [Maryann] In some of the more prolific products in the market the nurse's kit consists of pills, a thermometer and a hot water bottle. See the doctor's kit really consists more in terms of what we call the sphygmomanometer that which measures the blood pressure. And a little book, sort of a guide, as to when you dispense these medicines.

- [Emily] I did examine too one time and saw there was a stethoscope and there were some pills. The major difference was in the costume. There was in one and I don't remember what was in the doctors'. Now we talked about- We said that our topic was going to be sexist counseling and we certainly had to begin by saying what we meant by counseling. But the term sexist counseling implies that the process is not the same in practice for all people, is this true? And in what sense is it not.

- [Jean] Perhaps the quickest response of it, most ready response from my point of view is the word stereotype. I think that most of us when we think about sexist counseling think in terms of the stereotyping that our culture has used a long time and that many of our counselors are still using the stereotypes in their work with clients, with individuals. My feeling is that the kind of sexist counseling that one may experience may be very subtle. And that one of the things that I'd like to talk a little bit about is how to distinguish between sexist counseling and counseling.

- [Emily] Well, I think that's a good place to start, so why don't you go right ahead?

- Okay guess perhaps the most common or one of the common areas for sexist counseling is the vocational counseling area that we started to talk about. And Maryann's reference to the medical field where this is quite often a stereotyped response of a counselor counseling with a woman. So maybe some of the other, some rest of you can-

- [Martha] I think of vocational counseling this kind of sexism can occur. Women I think sometimes need to be exposed to the really broad range of occupations which they can enter and if they come in and say, "I was thinking about going into education." I think the counselor has some responsibility not to just say, "That sounds good." But to see if they really thought about all the various possibilities that there are in the world for today.

- [Maryann] I think one important view in terms of education Martha, might be... I wonder seriously how many people who are in the listening audience who are counselors have ever said to a young woman who comes in who is interested in education, "Have you thought about what it would take to be a principal?"

- [Martha] Then encourage them into going into some of the more maybe traditionally male parts of education and kind of breaking out of the stereotypes we've been talking about.

- [Emily] Well rather, little interestingly enough, at least to me, the principalships and administration isn't a typically male field in the sense of stereotypic field. What actually happened? Did most elementary principals used to be women?

- [Jean] I understand that from friends in Kansas city this was the case until 10 or 20 years ago when almost all of the principalships became male.

- [Maryann] Don't you think Jean that was because it became highly priced so to speak it was the advantage, the position to be desired and therefore men sought and encouraged other men in fact when surprised to promote other men to that exact position much to the detriment of many women who are far more capable if the truth be known.

- [Emily] Were there plenty cases of successful female administrators?

- [Maryann] I understand that they were indeed.

- [Emily] So there had to be some process that was gone through and I think we couldn't assume that it was entirely a counseling process there's also plain observation you know. That when the child observes all the way through school that his teachers in the elementary school are women and that the principal is a man. And the little girl observes the same thing she is not as likely to think of herself in this connection. Which means again of course, that the counselor has to play a very- has a very important role to play in raising her sights too not that being a principal is a greater thing than being a teacher but in opening up various alternatives that really are available to her. Let me say before we go on to remind you that our number is 864-4530 and we'd be very happy to have your comments or your questions, perhaps some of you did have testimonials maybe you've had personal experience with sexist counseling. And so we'd like to hear about that.

- [Maryann] It's always been some source of interest to me I believe, that those positions which require nurturance or suckerance have been sought after an encouraged on the part of women. That those positions which require some sort of organizational administration have been encouraged on the part of men for other men to take part in. And of course I'm not convinced that those are only for men because there are many very fine female administrators. Somehow we get this whole thing of counseling and careers tied up with the mother role.

- [Emily] How conscious do you think this process is or are you saying that this is very deliberate that the counselor been dealing with the little girl deliberately pushes her in one direction and the little boy in another direction or even the college man and woman.

- [Martha] I think in many cases it may be very unconscious on the part of the counselor and I think as Jean pointed out earlier that's why it's particularly important that women are aware of what kind of counseling they are receiving. So that if a counselor says to you "Oh, that's a safe field." You know that is something you can't fall back on that you might detect that perhaps he was stereotyping you or that was some form of sexism rather than thinking as I did at one time. Well yes, that is a safe field that's good. I never thought about what a safe field meant until 5 or 6 years later.

- [Emily] Does it make any difference whether the counselor and the student are the same sex or different sexes?

- [Maryann] That's almost an individual matter I would say would you agree Jean?

- [Jean] Very much so. There are schools of thought on it. There are some people who would say a female counselor is the only person who can counsel a female individual. I think the assumption is that the female counselor will not be sexist and will not stereotype, I think that's a very dangerous assumption because I find that as I grew up in a culture which stereotyped women I have to be very careful that I don't fall into those same stereotypes even though I am beginning to become aware of them and even though I work at trying not to be stereotypic in my responses. I think our culture teaches us very simple kinds of stereotyping that we are not even aware of. I think that that's perhaps one of the reasons why this discussion tonight can point out some of these things. A person who maybe is feeling kind of bored because they're home with small children and feels like maybe there's something wrong and might seek out a counselor to talk with about it. May in fact be told, "That role is your role it's something that people need to do and because you are the wife in the household that's your job." Rather than to look at the various alternative responses to that particular situation. I think although we are talking in some terms like "Broaden your horizon" or think about the occupations that were typically male or don't just take the role of a bored young mother for granted. I think that another thing we need to say right along with that is, that we are not saying that having a young family and being home can't be a very creative and very meaningful kind of experience or choosing to be an elementary education teacher which has traditionally has been a female role. I think we are saying that's an individual matter and if that is meaningful and exciting to an individual then that's a response or choice that is meaningful to that person. So I think we need to make that point too that as much as we keep talking about "Broaden your horizon" and the responsibility of the individual counselor to help a person look at all the alternatives. We don't want to suggest that we have some points to sell. That we have some particular vocational choices that we think are better than others.

- [Martha] I'm curious, say in your experience if you deal with very many people who've come in and either directly or indirectly have said to you, "I'm married, I am a mother and it isn't quite enough for me that I feel very guilty about it not being enough."

- [Jean] Yes I have talked with a number of people who've had those kinds of feelings. A number of people who have seemed to me to have those kinds of feelings but weren't able to put it into that context too, who are exploring some other possible choices in their life but who weren't yet able to say, "I'm not sure that's okay for me as a woman to explore."

- [Emily] I'd like to explore for a few minutes this concept of choice we are all talking about here. Yesterday in a hotel, I picked up a magazine that I understand is red Viver of 20 million people a month. And I found an article in it entitled, "But women are the favorite sex." And I'd like to read you a short paragraph from it and ask you to comment on it. Says, "We women have things going for us in other areas too. From the moment baby girl peers on the scene we treat her gently, dress her in pink coo and guggle at her and let her know that she will have it soft. Someday If she chooses, she can find herself a man to look after her. She may or may not choose to have children or she may want to go to work to support herself. Whatever, she has a choice." Do you like to take a comment on that? The next paragraph begins, "Boys don't."

- [Martha] Well I think to some extent Emily, I've had experience with people who are married and have no children for whatever reason come in and feel very inadequate, at least they're expressing to me feelings of inadequacy and this is extremely difficult to deal with for that individual let alone for the counselor.

- [Emily] I'd like to know to what extent this paragraph which sounds so good and reads so well, to what extent is this true? The first part of it I think that we'll all agree to. Where little girls are treated differently from little boys. This sets up the beginning of the socialization process. Whether its right or wrong is another matter. That they are treated in these ways. "But we let her know that she will have it soft." Do you happen to know personally any women who don't have it soft?

- [Martha] I don't know what that means I guess. To have it soft?

- [Emily] Do you know any women who do not have choices and have never had choices on these matters that are referred to in this article. "If she chooses she can find herself a man to look after her. If she chooses she may have children. If she chooses she may go to work and support herself. But whatever she does she has a choice."

- [Martha] There's a difference there Emily, it seems to me, between having a choice and taking the alternative of making that choice.

- [Emily] I'm asking you do you know any women who do not have these choices that are listed here.

- [Martha] Who do not recognize-

- [Emily] Who do not have them.

- [Martha] No.

- [Emily] You don't know any woman who doesn't have these choices?

- [Martha] Well I think there are a large number of women who have no choice about going to work. They have to go to work to support themselves and their families.

- [Emily] Do you know what per se do women who are in the labor force are in that situation?

- [Martha] I'm not sure I remember the exact statistics on that. But 9 out of 10 women do work sometime in their life and the majority of those women are married I think its 52% or so, are married. But the rest then I would imagine are working to support themselves.

- [Emily] Actually the percentage of women, married women in the labor force is more like 60% but that means 40% that are not married either because they never have been or because they are widowed, divorced or separated. Who have no choice what-so-ever in the matter.

- [Martha] What about the women who chose not to be married? You left those out.

- [Emily] Well we have that too and we have someone who didn't have a choice about that. Not sure whether they married or didn't, after all that depends on a great many factors that I presume if everyone looked in the right places then you could say, "Yes, there is some kind of other choice, it's there." In addition too, there's 40% whom there is no man to support them. Which the author of this article left out altogether. We also have another very large percentage of women married to men who are making less than $3000 a year. We have another large group married to men who make between 3 and $7000 a year. So to say which is in all cases below the standards set by the government itself for even a low standard of living in an urban setting. So that when people are given the impression as the attempt is made in this article and in so many things that one reads. You really do get the impression that the choices are all there and I guess I'm saying to you I question this.

- [Martha] I question it, even to start out the article or the paragraph there describing that a woman is treated differently and then go on to say that she can choose to live any style of life that she chooses because if we treat her differently to begin with, the chances of her having some other alternatives will be much less, she'll have a more difficult time selecting some of those alternatives.

- [Emily] Yes and then the article pretty goes on to say that, "Boys don't have a choice and we communicate this back to them from the beginning of their lives and that they are going to get a choice and that we expect them to support themselves and a wife and children someday and that if there is a war they are going have to fight. If there are fires they are going to have to put them out. And we like to toughen up with sports and hikes and against weakness and I take that they often think this is great. But there's a removal of choice from boys and men, really a fair thing to do? And if the counselor is operating that way then this too is sexist counseling, is it not?

- Right.

- [Emily] I think we barely began the process of discussing sexist counseling and we will continue with this subject again next week. Our guest panelists tonight have been Jean Parsons, Martha Ward and Maryann Thomas. Appreciate very much you both coming and we appreciate also the listeners that we have on the radio audience and we hope that you'll join us again next week. Thank you.

- [Narrator] This has been a feminist perspective tune in again next week for another in this series of live programs. Our time is 7:30, Lawrence temperature 63 degrees. We remind you that this is public radio K A N U Lawrence...