- [Radio Host] Good evening members of the radio audience. Welcome to Feminist Perspective. A weekly round table discussion on issues of concern to women. During the last 15 minutes of the program we invite listeners to participate by calling in with questions or comments. The number is 8644530. This program is sponsored by the Women's Resource Center and the Dean of Women's Office. We invite you to call our office at any time if you wish to discuss a matter of concern to you, or if you wish further information. Better yet come in, in person to talk or to use our constantly expanding Women's Library in 220 Strong Hall. Our topic this evening is a general one of the Women's Movement. What's it all about? Our panelists are Janet Sears and Casey Ike. Janet is a staff member in the Dean of Women's Office. Casey is a senior in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences and the elected National President of the Inter-Collegiate Association of Women Students. I think I'd like to start by asking you folks. When did you first become aware of the, what's become known as the Women's Movement? How did you get involved in it? Janet, how about it? - [Janet] During my senior year in college I was in all the Board of Women's Senior Honorary and we decided that for our service project we would do a service to ourselves by informing ourselves on career opportunities for women because we were all serious about our academic work and serious in pursuing careers after college. And so as part of our preparation for this we read several books that were out at that time. I, the Feminine Mystique was the one, that I recall then was vividly now. Which really made me realize that although I had the same preparation academically as the men around me, my problems and obstacles in pursuing were going to be very different than theirs. And that I needed some special thinking about what my future would be and prepared for some special problems that would be unique just to me as a woman. - [Radio Host] As a senior then in college. What about you Casey? You're a senior now, - [Casey] Well, I suppose when I was a sophomore, I remember I was doing a research article or not a research article, but a research paper. And I just happened to run across a magazine article and I remember the name of the article was, "The Rage of Women" in big red letters. So of course it attracted my eye and I read it. And after that, I, it impressed me a great deal because I realized that many of the things that the author was talking about were things that I had tried to not understand or not come to grips with and kind of pushed back in my mind and not really realize that these kinds of things were true. And I guess that's the first time that I really ever came and saw the name Women's Movement and this kind of thing. - [Radio Host] What's the, what about the terminology that's involved? We haven't really defined a Women's Movement. How would you define it? What do you say are the components of it? - [Janet] Well, I think that it means many different things to many different kinds of people and women that are involved in the movement. I, I hesitate to, to lay out one definition that, that may not be acceptable to all women. I think it's a growing movement. It means a lot of different things. I think maybe for some women who are alone in our societies or has a family, supporting children that equal pay for equal work is certainly an important facet of the movement because they have equal responsibilities with men in our society for supporting a family. I think for others of us, who are in a, in a marriage, it's a sort of an attitudinal thing that we have as much, right as a human being and as much dignity as the next person. And why should we do the laundry and the housework and someone else go ahead and do the more glorified work in our society when we had the same preparation. So those are two things that strike me at first. I don't know if Casey, it may mean something different to you. - [Casey] Well, I think that's a good point. What you brought up about the question. Well, the question of choices that each woman, it's up to each woman, what her choice, what her particular lifestyle and what she believes is best for her. I think that's, that's the main emphasis I see in the Women's Movement or the main continuity of the whole movement. And of course this would vary with each each woman actually. So it's not any standard definition as I see it. - [Radio Host] Are there any common elements. We read about the radicals and moderates. We recognize that the age level makes a difference in terms of what people are interested in. Would you say there's any, any kind of themes that run through the whole thing? Anything that everybody would agree on, for instance or is that just impossible to, - [Casey] I may be looking at it a bit more idealistically than, than other people, but I would hope that one main thing that runs through all phases of the Women's Movement is the idea of humanism. And that is letting each person, regardless of race or sex or religion, anything, be whatever they wish to be or live up to whatever potential they believe themselves to have and not have any kind of restrictions such as society would have imposed, you know, like sex roles, stereotyping or, or any kind of stereotyping restrict them in their choice of lifestyle or, or anything like that. - [Radio Host] That this is true of men than is, as it is a woman? - [Casey] Well, definitely. - [Radio Host] The last year when the 50th anniversary celebration was held throughout the country in commemoration of a suffrage Amendment the 19th Amendment, a lot of people spoke. A lot of people made comments on the subject of what was going on. I, I brought some of them along with me and I just like to know what your reactions are to some because they're really quite different. Mrs Coutts for instance, the Director of the Women's Bureau of the United States Department of Labor said that freedom of choice, American say is a basic right due every citizen, but they haven't given it to women. She mentioned some other groups they haven't given it to too. Do you agree with that? - [Casey] I think maybe as Gloria Steinem once pointed out, "Rights aren't given they're taken". I don't know if I'd exactly take that attitude but I think that unless people demand certain rights that haven't been given them, I don't think there'll be able to get them. - [Radio Host] She also says that women are asking for control of their own lives and the removal of barriers to their employment, their responsible well-paying jobs by lack of supportive services, such as the daycare for their children and by attitudes that perpetuate discrimination. Can you comment on that? - [Janet] Well, I think that important part of the Women's Movement is, is control over their lives and in contraception and in daycare centers. And until these two things come to pass, women really will not be able to make the kinds of choices that men can make unless you can control, you know, your childbearing years. And unless you can place your children in some sort of adequate or more than adequate. Something you feel really as comfortable with is, as you caring for them, yourself. Something you really have faith in then you're not free to make those choices because you have the responsibility for these children or the partnership. If, if it's an intact marriage it has this responsibility. So I think both of these things are really basic to the Women's Movement, to involving everyone in the Women's Movement. - [Casey] I'd like to maybe talk a little bit more about that point of daycare or more specifically the, the idea of, of partnership of marriage being a partnership especially in terms of children, because I think one thing another alternative to say is strictly a daycare situation would be where the man and the wife or the man the woman both take care of the children on an equal time basis or on an equal level. I think this would be beneficial to the children especially in the first place. And also I think most men are really deprived that kind of nurturance of other human beings that has been so traditionally given to women. I think it's, it's kind of a sad plight that, that has happened. - [Janet] Well, I definitely have to support that because my husband and I have that sort of arrangement. The last two years, we have, I stay home in the morning and work in the afternoon and he stays home in the afternoon and takes care of our three-year-old child. And it's been an ideal arrangement for us. It's allowed him an ongoing relationship with Kelly and in a way that you can't have when you're only home in the evenings. And then in the nurturing role, which I think too much of this has been laid, you know, to the woman, the responsibility of mothering and the tremendous guilt that can be built up if, you know, if something happens to the child it's all the mother's fault. And the father's the breadwinner and she's the nurturer. And, you know, for us this has been a much better lifestyle for both of us. - [Radio Host] And so this is still another method that could be used in addition to the childcare center. In the February issue of the magazine Sexual Behavior, there's a a comment that something you said reminded me of, 'Cause this is a group discussion of what they call Women's Liberation which has come to be a rather general term for the Women's Movement. Group discussion by a group of educated men. And this comment was made by a commercial artist. Speaking about his college educated wife. He says, I pay her bills and she is beholding to me to a considerable degree. I'm not saying it's fair, but if she depends on me it's inevitable that I'll use her dependency for leverage to satisfy my ego needs and other needs such as doing my laundry. That's the way the world works. That's the way it works? - [Casey] I'm afraid in many cases it does work that way. I think it's a shame. The one factor that I seen in that, that I think is really a warrant, is the idea of using another person. And I am afraid that in the kinds of the traditional kinds of relationships that we've all grown up with that this is a major part of the relationship, is the idea of using another person. The idea of the woman maybe uses the husband for money and for support and the idea that the man uses the woman for laundry and whatever other kinds of things that he might need, especially ego support which is kind of a myth in itself, but that's well that was my reaction to that. Janet, maybe can you say something? - [Janet] Well, this reminds me of a, of a young woman that graduated from KU in several years ago and was a good student on campus, very capable, very confident. And then over Christmas, she was visiting in our home. And she's now at home in a traditional sort of relationship as you were talking about. And she had, had her children with her mother-in-law and where they were going to pick them up. And she said, Oh, she just didn't know how she was going to cope again with having two children and running the household. And I thought here is a woman, you know, that you're a few years ago felt she could cope with almost anything. But being in this sort of dependent relationship with her, with her ego and her needs being met by someone outside, you know, of herself that she'd gotten to feel that she couldn't even cope with with running a household and two children. And yet I looked around and saw many of my friends who cope with several children and full times job. So I think this sort of relationship does something to the woman, to her sense of wholeness and what she's capable of doing in over a period of time. You know, she does become extremely dependent. And as Casey said, can be manipulated. - [Radio Host] Indeed. Are we concerned at all about whether the man who makes this kind of a statement might have some problems of his own that he needs to have somebody who's dependent on him 'cause certainly there are other ways in which these matters could be handled - [Janet] Well. I'd wonder that the love that he might profess for his wife, when he will take a person with an education that she has and, and expect her to do his laundry. I mean, you know, this, I think says something about, - [Radio Host] Especially as pay, I take it, for this dependency role that he expects her to play. Margaret Mead, who is a heroin, who we know, who was just a, well an outstanding anthropologist, feels at least, she so stated in connection with the 50th anniversary celebration that the present very rapidly changing position of women was a reflection of the population explosion and our recognition that women will no longer be asked to give the whole of their lives to reproduction and the care of children. In other words, we're asking for women to have fewer children now. Aren't we? - The society in general is, and are in saying that great many women simply shouldn't have any at all. Now in return for that society is certainly going to have to to make some other kinds of concessions I take it though. There's even the woman who wants to spend, and Casey has mentioned the importance of choice, wants to spend all of her time at home and with her children. Is this indeed going to be possible in the, in the world as it's developing? - [Janet] Well, I think fewer numbers of women are going to have to make that their choice and or it will no longer be a matter of choice. Society might feel that they have to interfere for their own protection and to, to keep down the numbers in the population that I really feel that, you know, that many women will make other choices when they're open to them, certainly. We'll just have to wait and see because as you pointed out earlier, women have not had that choice in our society. And we really don't know what will happen, but I, I feel that when the, you know, when the whole range of opportunities are offered and you have the whole range of women with all different kinds of potentials that they'll choose such a broad number of things, instead of just the traditional role. - [Casey] I think a really crucial area though, can I ? - [Radio Host] Go ahead. - [Casey] Is the, is the fact that that women now with the population explosion and everything should only have two children say with zero population growth, as it's telling us and in no way, can she make being a mother and a housewife a full-time occupation for the rest of her life. So it's kind of, it's a myth that has to be dispelled. And I think society needs to hurry up its process of of giving those women choices. - [Radio Host] It is the time to hear from our radio audience. If anyone cares to make a comment or ask a question, the number is 8644530. And we would invite you to, to call. We've, is there a, is there a really a problem of, of inequality or is it just a question of how sex roles are defined. We are told that occasionally, that there really isn't any problem. You think there is? Well, I mean, it's rather obvious that you think there is. Is there any convincing evidence that there is? - [Casey] You mean such as economically or politically? I mean, you can take any areas of society and, and find inequities that really have no reason to be other than half of the population being excluded from certain roles. - [Radio Host] What kinds of roles that they excluded from? - [Casey] Well, I suppose the most, the one most talked about is, the work type thing. - [Radio Host] So that you really, there really is a difference in the, that if two people, man and woman are holding the same job, there really is a difference in their pay? Oh, we have a, we have a question or comment from radio audience. Hello. - [Caller 1] Hello. I'd like to ask, why as a man I should participate in helping to change or eliminate some of the traditional sexual stereotypes which have at least so far been very much to my advantage. - [Radio Host] That's a very good question. Would one of our panelists like to comment on that? Did you hear the question? Why should he participate? This is a man speaking, why should he participate in the process which has been very much to his advantage. - [Janet] Well, I wonder how to what, you know, how much it is to his advantage. I think there are some men, as Casey pointed out, who would like a closer relationship with their children. I think there are some men who would like be freed of having to work and support themselves, a wife, and several children. And the increasing divorce rate in our country if alimony keeps up and if the woman is going to stay in the home, that means that if a man becomes divorced he has to support his ex wife and the children and and then his present wife, and if they have any children. So I think in that, those terms, if a woman is is a whole person, making her own way in life, that it frees a man to make some choices that he's, you know, he's not capable of making her able to make right now if he has to have these other people dependent upon him. It takes a huge responsibility I would think off of his shoulders. - [Casey] In other words, to put it more bluntly, why should you have to go out and work the rest of your life? - [Radio Host] To support other people? - [Janet] There are some men who I think would enjoy staying home or when the husband and wife could alternate and sort of give each other sabbaticals over a period of years while reading and studying. If you, if you're free from that bread-winning sort of role. - [Radio Host] You'd leave it up and each couple to decide for themselves without too much assistance from those who want to tell everyone how he should live. Hey caller. - [Caller 1] Well, that response seems to assume that I am or will continue to be married. Would you care to rephrase or restate your response in terms of a single man? - [Radio Host] I wish you could you could you tell us what you feel these advantages are that you would be giving up if there was a state of true equality in our country between men and women? - [Caller 1] I'm sorry. I'm not sure I heard your question. I was talking to the engineer. - [Radio Host] I said, would you mind telling us what are the advantages that you feel you would be giving up if there were a state of true equality in our country? - [Caller 1] Oh, I think perhaps one of the things that has been labeled by some of the panelists tonight would be an emotional feeling of superiority or extra equality, which I've become accustomed to. Perhaps let's start with that one. Why should I give that up? - [Radio Host] You mean, you'd like to be more equal than, than, than women is that it? - [Caller 1] I'm assuming that that's been the case today and maybe in process of changing. - [Radio Host] Panelists care to comment on it. - [Janet] I think we might have to refer back to what Casey was saying, that Gloria aside of me had said earlier that, you know "You might not want to give this up but you might have to." Because those of us who, you know, who are building up your egos, in this day, are no longer willing to do that. So as you say, this might not be something you wanna willingly give up. But it's something that I think is going to have to change. I think people are going to have to meet their ego needs, rather than having your foot in somebody else's back. - [Radio Host] Before your crest in your comments I believe we have another caller. Hello. - [Caller 2] Wait we're through we can just barely hear it. - [Engineer] Hey ma'am when you hear, with your question. Okay? - [Caller 2] Okay. - [Engineer] Thank you. - [Radio Host] Could we have your question or comment? - [Caller 2] Okay. How do I really find out if it's true that women equally qualified are being paid less than men in the same job? - [Radio Host] As I understand, the question the lady has asked, how is she really going to find out if it is true that men and women who are doing the same work are being paid less? I presume we're not talking about individuals because obviously there are individuals who are for whom this wouldn't be true, but any overall arrangement. - [Casey] The first step is, there are many many fact sheets put out by the women's Bureau in the U.S Department of Labor that show the actual figures of the discrepancies between wages paid to women and men. Also, and I'm sure they've got, they received their numbers from the us Bureau of Labor Statistics. So I think they're pretty accurate. - [Radio Host] Well, the, the characteristics of the population is published by the census. A good source by the Department of Labor, that Casey has mentioned, I would suggest again, you know if you'd like to come over to 220 Strong Hall that we certainly would make our library available to you. And what you will find is that the the range depends of course, upon the occupation. It ranges all the way from sales people, who sales women who make 40 cents for every dollar that a sales man makes, to professionals who make 60 cents cents for every dollar that a man makes. Or further interest in statistic, two years ago, the last time this was published that I saw at least 3% of the women workers, of which there were over 31 million were making less than $10,000 a year. 28% of men workers that weren't making that amount. - [Janet] I think, as you pointed out that it's well-documented now. If women are just willing to pursue it, in perhaps if she was asking about a specific job that she's in she just needs to pursue it with her employer. - [Radio Host] Well, thank you for calling and we have another caller. Would you come in please? - [Caller 3] Yes, I'd like to know if it isn't true that we're protected by the 14th Amendment. Do we really need an equal rights Amendment? - [Radio Host] Oh, excuse me but, - [Caller 3] I just wondered if we really needed an equal rights Amendment. - [Radio Host] I'd like to suggest to you that you wait until the fourth, the 31st of January to raise that question again with us. I mean, we'd be happy to talk about it tonight but it is the subject of a of a special program on the equal rights Amendment alone. And next week, the program will be on legal discriminations in general. That's a rather technical question, we will have some lawyers here next week who I will be able to answer that very specifically for you. I think one of the things that you'll be told will be that the Supreme Court has not seen fit to interpret the 14th Amendment in this way. If it had been interpreted in this way we wouldn't have needed a 19th Amendment to give us the right to vote. - [Janet] And I think the things that we're just talking about have it equal pay for equal work. Certainly if we, you know, if we had equal rights under the 14th Amendment, then we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't have to argue about equal pay for equal work. It would be at the standard practice which it is not at this time. - [Radio Host] We have another caller. Would you come in, please? - [Caller 4] Do you have any suggestions on how to go about starting a group in the community representing women? - [Radio Host] You both have suggestions? - [Janet] I think that the small group idea has had been very important in building the women's movement to get together with other women and find out what their problems are. And pretty soon you see that this is not my problem, it's our problem. And that I, you know, the problems that I've seen that I've had alone are not a result of my personality as necessary as all those problems that we have as a sex together. So I think it's, it is important. Then I think it can be very informal. It can be with a group of neighbors, some women on your job with a similar kind of position that you can share your ideas with or a group of friends and you get together and you start discussing some, some ideas and some problems that you have and how you feel maybe towards house work in your home, or how you feel like the way you're treated at your job, or, you know, things very personally and you start sharing these things. And they're not really personal problems. They're sort of general problems related to many women. Do you think that's true, Casey? Or do you have any suggestions to her? - [Casey] Well, I think probably to start out with it the consciousness raising kind of small group that you're talking about is is really quite good. There are other kinds of groups such as women's groups that just say do reading and then come to talk about in case you don't really want to talk as personally at first. And I, the best way to do it is just to try and find out which women would would like to do that, you know, maybe it's your friends or, or others that you could get in contact through other people. - [Radio Host] There's always a possibility of joining an established group too. There are so many now who concern themselves with the question of equality for, for all people. So that if you wish the information on the existing organizations we would be very happy to provide that information for you in 220 Strong Hall or if you wanted some help in getting together with a group of women who are interested in talking about the same thing. I think that's the, we will not have time for any further calls this evening. We do appreciate your calling and hope you will continue to do so. Or if there are other questions that occur to you later too you can, and if you forget our number or don't have a directory to look it up. You can call the Information Service and they will give it to you. Or again, we would invite you to just hop in. One more comment that was made by one of our politicians of the present day, Senator Muskie. He's defined the Women's Movement in terms of equal pay for equal work, fair promotion policies and government industry education and other fields of employment, fair treatment in college admissions, abolition of working hours. Original working hour laws, originally intended to protect women, but now penalizing them. And all along these, the economic and legal, legal lines. We hope that you'll join us again next week to discuss the question specifically of legal discrimination against women. - [Announcer] This has been a Feminist Perspective. tune in again next week for another in this series.