- Welcome to Feminist Perspective. Our format consists first of discussion by our guest panelist on a topic of interest and concern to women, and second, an opportunity during the last 15 minutes, for members to participate, by calling with comments or questions. Our number is 864-4530. This series is sponsored by the Dean of Women's Office, which functions as a women's resource and planning center, we invite you to call our office at any time, if you wish ti discuss a matter of concern to you, or if you wish further information. Better yet, come in person, to talk or to use our constantly expanding women's library in 220 Strong Hall. Our topic tonight is Women in the World of Work. Our guest panelists are Dorothy Rooney vice president at Douglass County State Bank, and Jeanine Miller, sales manager of KLWN. We know that women in the world of work follow a great many different patterns. I think it'd be interesting, Dorothy, if you and Jeanine would tell us what your work pattern has been, when did you start, have you ever been out of the work force, Dorothy, how 'bout you?

- I started in banking in 1947, upon graduation from high school. I worked in a bank in Hiawatha, Kansas until May of '52, when I joined the Douglass County State Bank in Lawrence, Kansas. It had chartered that year, I came to Lawrence as an assistant cashier. I became assistant vice president in 1962, and received by title in 1971, I've been in banking all my life.

- Right straight through, then.

- Right straight through, yeah.

- How 'bout you, Jeanine?

- Well, radio and television was my major in college. I attended K of State for two years and became interested in radio and TV there, probably my sophomore year when you kind of decide where you wanna go. Thoroughly enjoy the people in radio and the things we did there. And then during the summer, a couple of years later, I got a job as a receptionist at the local television station in Hutchinson. So I liked it even better. Came up to KU for my final two years, and started working in my senior year, here at the local radio station, KWLN. I did have a respite for about 8 years, when I was married and had a child and came back again six years later and started working as a saleswoman, as I had before in my senior year. At that time it was kind of an experimental thing, to have me in sales, and I loved it. So when I came back, I had the opportunity to start again, and so after five years of selling and doing commercials and writing, I was moved to sales manager just a year ago.

- You really illustrate, and I really didn't know this, until tonight, two of the most common patterns. One, Dorothy, the career woman, who works straight through, and you Jeanine, of what's often called the split level method of dropping out when you have a child during the early child rearing period and then coming back to work again. Also, we've all now arrived at a place where this is almost the lifestyle of the majority, as you know, half of the women in the country between the ages of 18 and 65 are in the labor force. I thought tonight that I might ask you folks your opinion of some of the things that we most commonly hear. Probably one of the most basic is the statement that women's place is in the home. Do you have any comment you care to make about that?

- Well, I'll jump right in. I enjoyed when my child was young, I enjoyed being home and being with her and of course I still enjoy our time together. But there came a time, to me, long before I came back to work, that I felt the need to do something to satisfy myself, to maybe utilize all the things that I have dreamed for. And then the opportunity came to do it, I thoroughly enjoyed it, I do not feel it takes anything away from my home, or my family. I think it makes me better in the home and in the family, because I thoroughly enjoy what I do.

- You do have, my experience of course is different than Jeanine, I am single. This is my livelihood. Maybe I'm married to my job instead of to a husband. I thoroughly enjoy the working field. So I have no other choice, I guess at this time.

- You're one of seven million in that situation. That's if we don't add those who have been divorced, or widowed, and married but with a husband no in the home. So there are a lot of people who really don't have the choice. How 'bout you're reaction to the statement that women aren't seriously attached to the labor force, and that they really just work for pin money.

- Well of course I do not feel this is true, I feel that women enjoy working and many women that are married need self fulfillment by working. I personally love my job and am very happy with it.

- I never looked at it as working for pin money. I really always took it seriously, whether it was to supplement the income, or to now, to be the entire income in raising my daughter, it obviously is, finances are very important, this makes the money that I need to live on. And I really never considered it pin money, I really considered it a career.

- I wonder if there ever was a time in our country when women really worked for pin money, you know, there's--.

- Yes, I think, when you say pin money, I almost don't like that word. But I think there has been a time, let's say, a generation ago, when women, when the men didn't even like to have women go out to work. They felt like maybe this was a bad reflection on their earning power. But the times were tight, and mother had to go to work, possibly, to send that child through college, or to do just those extra little things, but I don't see how you could be involved in a job and think of it as pin money, because it's all involving, and I wouldn't like to think it's because I had to make just the few extras, and watch the clock until I go home, I get more involved in it now, and I'm sure you do, Dorothy.

- Yes I do, and I think the majority of people that work do.

- They're really only about 10 million who have any choice, out of the 31 million who work. That's a number that the Bureau of Labor Statistics tells us our married, living with husband, who is making more than the amount that is listed as necessary, or a lower standard of living for an urban family of four. Now we also often hear that women are ill more often than men, and therefore that costs the company more money, what's been your experience in that respect?

- Well at least in my job, I haven't seen that, I would say of men, that I'm working with, they are sick more often than the rest of we women. Now I will have this to say, those of us who have children, sometimes we have to be out for those children, and that I can see as a problem, but not for their personal illness, I find the women are there earlier, come out more often, and well, I don't wanna say they stay later, but I think they go on with sometimes, with colds and things that some of the fellas don't.

- Any experience in the banking business?

- Well, Jeanine, our men really aren't sick very often. And neither are the women, we're real lucky, I don't have to keep the personnel records, but our absentees are not very great. I think often time, maybe children that are ill, which is necessary for the person to stay home, and there are exceptions, but on the majority, our people are not ill.

- This has been kind of the year of the flu, I have noticed, perhaps it's hit men more often this year than it has hit the women, and I'm judging, I think, by this year, it's happening more.

- Excuse me, I think that you probably will find that the officers and supervisors are really off less than some of the other people.

- That would be true of men and women, a lot of guys.

- Yeah I think that's true.

- The only study I've ever seen of that was done by the Public Health Service, and there they indicate a very, very small difference between men and women and the amount of absenteeism. In fact, even the number of days surprised me, five and 9/10ths days for women and five and 2/10ths days for men and that includes everything. Pregnancies, childbirth, the whole gambit. So that really seems to be a myth, but we still often hear it. Another comment that someone offered here is that women don't work as long as men, or as regularly as their male coworkers, and that training is costly, and therefore other training is largely wasted on women.

- Now do you mean long, over years?

- Yes.

- I wish I had ore experience to be able to say anything on that, I'm not sure. In my business I think, oh now for example, I do commercials, too, on TV. And I think there comes a certain point where a woman can't do that anymore, so obviously your profession is not going to span the years that a man can.

- Why is that, that she can't?

- Oh, I think you see younger women doing television commercials. All right, you don't see older women on as much, but you do see mature men on doing television commercials, so I think just in this particular area, that women may not be in the field as long as men, but not because they've given up, I'm sure.

- Now as far as long hours in a place of business, I think you will find that the majority of people that have responsibility and the title will spend the necessary hours. Of course there are some that really are interested in the eight or 9 o'clock to 5 o'clock areas. The ones that do obtain positions put in long hours, or the necessary hours that is necessary for their position.

- In terms of the total work life expectancy, because of this attendance of a great many women to take some time off during the child bearing period, the overall number of years is somewhat smaller.

- I see, I see, yeah.

- But for the single woman, actually the number of years of work is two years longer than the average man. And then on labor turnover, it just depends on the job. If you have a boring job, it doesn't make a difference if you're a man or a woman, I suppose, in terms of how much you like to get out of something else. How 'bout the idea that women are taking jobs away from men.

- Well I don't like to look at it that way, I certainly don't wanna think I'm usurping a man's position, but I feel that if I'm qualified to do it, I should have the opportunity to do it, Dorothy?

- Well it's the same way, I think that women in banking aren't filling every position that's now available in banks in the area, I'm not sure it's a matter of taking the job away from the man, but if the position becomes vacant and they are capable, they are being given an opportunity to fill these positions.

- If we have 31 and a half million women working, and little over 2 million men out of work, that leaves 29 million jobs that we can get done, if one took that too literally. What about the idea of women's jobs and men's jobs? We're sometimes told that women outta stick to women's jobs, and men to men's jobs, in which case to go beyond work, as well.

- I think so .

- You think jobs out to be sex linked like that?

- No, I think they outta be determined by the individual, regardless of sex.

- I do too. Now I'm not really interested in working in construction. However, if I were qualified to work in the architecture end, I'd feel like I outta have the opportunity to do that.

- There's a woman I read about in Chicago, the first apprentice carpenter. Did you read about her?

- No.

- Her first day of work, she was followed by television cameras and reporters, so it was a big deal, because there may be been women in some other city, but she was billed as being the first apprentice, because a lot other things of course, we've all done this too.

- I'd hate to have been her the first day.

- I think so.

- Be a little bit of pressure.

- But if that's what she wanted to do, then I think you're saying, she should have the opportunity to do it, whether most women want to or not.

- The EEOC makes a big point of the fact that custom and tradition shouldn't determine whether a job is held by a man or a women, but it should be by their qualifications. How 'bout the notion that women don't want responsibility? That they don't want promotions, or job changes, if it adds to their load. Do you have any experience with that?

- I think that's true, I think there are some women that are not going to accept responsibility, the time involved, there are many women that are, however, but I think there are many women that are not interested in this.

- I think that's true, I think that's also true of men. There are some men who really don't want the extra responsibility or the extra hours that goes with it, so I don't think it's any more peculiar to a woman than it is to a man.

- And probably a lot of them haven't been offered the opportunity.

- That's it, I wonder, how can you take a survey? I don't think a lot of us have been offered some of these positions to know.

- It's a time to hear from our radio audience if some of you would care to call with questions or comments, our number's 864-4530. And we would welcome your calls. While we're waiting we might talk about some other things, we're told occasionally that the employment of mothers leads to juvenile delinquency. What's your opinion on that?

- Hmm, well I'm basing that, and hopefully not juvenile delinquency, but I think we all run a risk really of that, I don't know that it's any higher with the woman who works than it is with the woman who stays home, or let's say that woman doesn't stay home, she isn't in the home, she might be working outside, she might be playing bridge or bowling, or not at home every minute. So I don't think that's necessarily true.

- Well I agree with Jeanine, I don't think it's necessarily true, I think it is their obligation if they are not going to be home, to find somebody that is responsible to the children, that the children can of course answer to, I can't see that this is any problem.

- We have a caller here, hello? Hello?

- Yes, I hear a lot of women say that they wouldn't work for women and I don't know what, how you feel on this.

- Did you hear the question, panelist?

- I'm sorry.

- She said that she hears lots of people say that they wouldn't like to work for a women's boss, do you have a comment on that?

- Well, now I just think that's kind of relevant, as far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of men I wouldn't wanna work for and there are a lot of women that I wouldn't wanna work for. But I think that's just a basic personality and it could be a man, or a woman, really.

- Do you hear this from people who have had experience in working for a woman supervisor, or do you know of?

- I think the ones that I have heard say this are judging one or two people they know. They look at one woman and they think, gee wouldn't wanna work for her. But I think anyone that has worked for a woman doesn't have this feeling, if they have any respect for the person, I can't see the difference. There's men that they aren't happy working for either.

- Does our caller have a comment on it? Okay. Is there another caller? The, do you wanna talk anymore about the-? I guess our caller is off the air right now.

- She left it to us .

- Left it to us to comment, I was hoping she would tell us, you know , what her opinion of it was.

- I do think there's basic personsalities that all of us could not work for or say that we could not work for, however I always think that if your bread and butter depends on it, you will do your best for this person, even though you don't like him, and try to set personality aside.

- But you don't see it as having anything to do with-.

- Not women, particularly. I don't feel that way, I could work for a woman, as well as a man.

- We noted from, do we have another caller? Hello?

- Hello, could you tell me if either of the women have experienced sex discrimination in their fields?

- She wants to know if either of you have experienced sex discrimination in your own work?

- Well now I really haven't in my own particular job. Now, if you're talking about my own area, radio or TV, I think we're making pretty big strides right now. Women are coming into areas, they're being moderators of programs, they are doing television commercials. I have not personally seen any discrimination, since I started, again, six years ago. However, in 1959, as a senior at the university, I believe there was much more at that time, and align a woman into some of the radio and television areas.

- Did you experience any?

- No, I haven't experienced it, and I think you might be interested to know that our bank, there are six women officers and six men officers active in the bank.

- I think this is an indication of thrive. In my job, there is a woman manager now, who manages the station, and I am a sales manager. And obviously there are important positions held by men, but this is kind of unique. And at a recent RAB meeting, I was very anxious to know how many women were doing what I was doing, or perhaps being a salesman, saleswoman, as I had been, and there were not too many, but that may just be this particular area, I understand it's being done more around the country.

- I think that you people may not be completely typical, I certainly don't want to say that.

- I don't think we are, and I'll tell you why, I think we are in a smaller town, and I think these things tend to happen in a smaller town, faster, than they do, possibly, in a metropolitan area.

- Well, I agree with you, Jeanine, but on the same token, I think the banks probably open their doors to women officers and women sooner than many of the industries and businesses.

- We have another caller, hello? I guess they hung up. Our number is 864-4530, we'd welcome your calls. I think we do have to account in some way for the fact that women overall, that women in the labor force, that's two women, you know, to every three men are earning less than 60% in the amount that men are, so that discrimination must account for some of that.

- Now, I have talked to various women who have told me, that they are receiving as men, they are receiving less pay. Now I am not experiencing this, and I don't know about Dorothy, but in my own particular area, in my own particular job, I don't experience this. But I do know that this is here, it's with us, and I don't of course agree with that, I really don't.

- Well I think it's going to take time and training. At the same token, a lot of women do not want the take the responsibility that's necessary to be on the same equal level with men.

- But what about those who are willing to and who do want to?

- I think they're being accepted, it's been slow.

- Well I think they're being accept Dorothy, but I do still think there is a pay, now I don't know whether I wanna call this discriminatino or not, but there is a pay scale indfference in some areas where women are holding the same job and the same title as a man.

- This is of course you know, illegal in our state. Under our equal pay bill, but that became effective over a year ago you know, in July 1970, and I found the other day that not a single case has been brought under that law.

- Is that right?

- So if we had women in the radio audience who feel that they have a legitimate case, they should talk to the Commissioner of Labor, who--.

- Per again, I don't know, because you don't ask what people make. So, really. But they seem to tell me that they think they are getting this money. It would seem that someone would bring this up as a case.

- The statistics would bear that out, plus the fact that many cases are brought through the EOC, half the women in Kansas are covered, they're under this federal umbrella, but the other half, of course, really aren't and have been on the state laws.

- Is this office in Topeka?

- Yes, the Labor Commissioner and the Statehouse. Hello?

- Yes, I read in Friday night's paper that Dorothy and Jeanine are candidates for the Board of Directors and the Chamber of Commerce and I wondered if they were the first women to be considered for the Board of Directors.

- Well that is most interesting, I don't know whether you all heard that or not, she said she read in the paper that you were both candidates for the directorships in the Chamber of Commerce, is this a first?

- To my knowledge, this is the first time.

- I think we're both very flattered, and I don't know, we are up for a slight to be voted on for the Board of Directors by the Chamber of Commerce, so of course there will be balloting of the member of the Chamber of Commerce, and I don't know whether I will or not, but we are very pleased to think that they would entrust their Chamber of Commerce, some decisions to us.

- Well that's a great idea, and as a member of the Chamber of Commerce, I can give you two votes. Unless they send me an extra ballot. See if we can do some electrioneering.

- Thank you.

- Are there any other calls? This Wednesday, it's February the 16th, and from one until four P.M., we're having a career seminar on summer jobs, both here and abroad, It will be held in the Dean of Women's Office, 220 Strong hall, sponsored by the Commission on the Status of Women. Now, any student who is interested is invited to come in at any time between one and four next Wednesday, February 16th. I think we have time for one more call, 864-3530 if someone has another question or comment. Then I'd just like to ask one more question of you, I don't there, have you people. We know now, that according to all of the statistics that nine out of ten women who are in high school and college are going to work at some time during their lives. We hear that the Lawrence School System has established a career program and we also know that the career sites of a great many, girls are very much limited. Do you have any comment on the career program, or? Any feeling of what might be done to help girls feel more realistic and less limited in their choices? We do have another call, I guess we'll have to hold that one. Hello? Thanks for talking loud.

- Can you hear me?

- No.

- No? Can you hear me now?

- Now.

- I think the statement, that individual sales are pretty much a private matter in today's area is quite appropriate and I wonder if the panel has any suggestions for ways that would be acceptable and appropriate for institutions for finding out if inequities do in fact exist.

- Did you hear the question?

- Yes, in answer to that, I think most businesses frown upon your discussing your salary. Most everywhere I have worked, or everyone who I know works, it is said to you very subtly that you don't discuss your salary, because this can make people unhappy, who, and of course you are to believe that maybe are not doing the work that you are doing, but might want the salary that you are making. So here again, it's such an individual thing and I'm not anxious to tell anyone what I'm making. But there should be some way that a person can find out if they're on the same level. If they are within a reasonable area of one another within salary.

- I think that's why the census figures and the Bureau of Labor Statistics is so helpful. When we learn that if you look at all the census jobs that they range from 40 cents to a dollar on sales work, to 65 I believe in professional work. We have to assume that things are not too different in Lawrence, Kansas from what they are throughout the country. Thank you, Jeanine Miller and Dorothy Rooney for your valuable contributions tonight, next Monday evening at the same time, our topic is childcare. Yes, panelists will be Susie Buselle and Judy Benchiavingo. We hope you'll join us with the discussion of this topic, which is so central to the entire Women's Movement, regardless of one's position on the continuum, from a concern for economic and legal justice to radical feminism. Good evening, thank you for listening.

- We hope you'll tune in again next week for another in this series of live programs. This has been, A Feminist Perspective. Mostly cloudy skies and colder temperatures tonight with a low in the low 20s, partly sunny and colder on Tuesdays, with a high in the upper 30s.