- Women to speak publicly on issues of concern to them, and help inform other women and men of the movement which is remaking the shape and substance of women's and men's lives throughout the world. Our format consists, first, of discussion by our guest panelists on a topic of interest and concern to women. And second, an opportunity during the last 15 minutes for listeners to participate by calling with comments or questions. Our number is 8644530. This series is sponsored by the Dean of Women's Office, which functions as a women's resource and planning center. We invite you to call our office at any time if you wish to discuss a matter of concern to you or if you wish further information. Better yet, come in person to talk or to use our constantly expanding women's library. in 220 Strong Hall. Tonight, our topic is childcare. There's a great deal of discussion, as I'm sure all of you know about this topic at the present time. Our two guests panelist are Susie Bosel, who's a graduate student in early childhood education, and Judy Bencivengo, Director of the United Childcare Center. Suzy, how did you get interested in early childhood education then? When was this? - Well, I got my bachelor's degree in elementary education here at KU, and I've always been interested in in younger children and finding out how I can service them or something, I suppose. I decided to go ahead and attend graduate school here in the School of Education. And I'm in the program of early childhood, which is the preschool area, and I hope to, in another year or so, get into teaching or having my own school. - And how about you, Judy? How'd you get interested? - My interest in childcare started through the interests of both my parents, since I grew up in the settlement house where my father was director and my mother worked in the preschool, and I began doing volunteer work when I was about 12 years old in various settlement houses and preschools around the St. Louis area, and came to KU and worked during the summers in preschool situations, and came back after teaching in Trenton, New Jersey for two years to direct the Childcare Center at the Methodist Church. - How many children are in the Childcare Center. - There are 48 children enrolled. - And this all in one place. - Right, it's one program. - I read the other day that only 12% of the need for childcare was being provided at the present time. Would you agree with this figure, you folks? - I feel that in Lawrence, particularly, the childcare facilities are too few in number, that staff at Childcare Center, particularly, feels the pinch, since we receive anywhere from four to six calls a week from parents who are really in desperate situations and needing childcare, and not only are we unable to take them, because our enrollment is filled, but we have no places to to refer them, so it really is a crisis kind of situation. - In addition to that, some women have worked with me on a committee. In the Commission on the Status of Women, we did a survey to find out, to talk to the services that were available here in Lawrence and in the community, and define what the demand was. And they reported that they were all full to capacity and that there were always waiting lists, and people were always, you know, searching for some place to put the children. - What's a typical cost that's involved in a childcare center, to have a child in childcare? - I think the costs range anywhere from $3 to $5 a day, depending on the program. Of course, this gets to be particularly expensive if you have more than one child. - $3 to $5 a day, you say? - Mm-hmm. - And is it cost pretty standardized in all the childcare centers? - I think so. I think that's about the going rate. - It would also depend upon the type of staff that you have, the type of educational situation that you were providing for the children. And also if you have federal money or something that would be supplementing what you're doing. - Is there very much of that, very many federal subsidies for childcare? - There are federal daycare funds available for parents whose income is below 4,000, and then the headstart program in town is federally funded. But aside from that, there are very few ways to subsidize a childcare center program. And it seems that the real burden of the cost falls on the parent. - And does that mean then that a lot of people are really dealt out of the possibility of making use of the childcare centers? - I think it means that a lot of people are working at jobs, that mean that they barely bring home any money by the time they've paid for the care of their children. - And yet it's still important to them, I take it. - It's just a necessity if they're going to work. - Right. And I know, of course, that there are, we all know that there are very many different points of view concerning the whole matter of childcare, right from the beginning argument, as to whether such services should be provided at all. I mean, what's your views on that subject? - Well, I feel that a lot of time and energy has been put into research, indicating that that time in a child's life is very, very important. And yet there's still too few facilities available to them. And I think that that it would be wise for us to pay more attention to how the child's time spent during those days when he's growing up between being a toddler and ready for public school. - Well, Judy, I also think that it is important with women and men who will have to work, you know, just to exist, and women especially, if they are the single parent, if there's not a male in the household either, that they've got to have some place to put their child, or else they can't work at all. - How'd you decide on the number, for instance, in your childcare center. You said 48. Is there an optimum size? - The optimum size is 50 and that's this large grip that can be housed under one roof. - And that's according to state regulations? - Yeah, that's state regulation. - Now, is that optimum or maximum? - That's maximum. And children at the childcare center are divided into several groups, so that most of the licensing requirements are really made for the protection of the child. And I think everyone feels that small groups are the best way to work with children that age. - Is there a requirement that they be divided into age groups? - No. No, that just seems to be wise. - You could have everything from an infant to a 12 year old in the same-- - No, the licensing requirements for children below the age of three are very strict, which is part of the problem, so it means that the children between the ages of one and three are really in a gap for childcare. And it's very hard and very expensive to provide care for them, because the licensing regulations are so severe. - Could you give us an example? - An example would be a staff-wise. If you have three to five-year-olds, you would need one staff member per every 12 children. And ages one to three, you would need for one staff member, per what? - Six children - Can you take 'em under one at all? - Then you would have even more strict rules. One person for every two infants. - Is that one adult? - Yes. - Now, when you talk about a staff member, are there any particular skills or educational requirements? - Yes, there are educational requirements both for the director and for the teachers, so that it means that... And again, the state regulations in area are minimum, and to provide quality care, it means that there has to be the responsibility of the people setting up the center to hire qualified teachers. - Does that mean a college education? Or what are the skills? - Mainly a college education and experience with children. I think, as the years go on, that we're gonna have much more strict rules, and requirements, and, say, having a degree in early childhood education or child development of some sort, these really are not that strict yet, but mainly it's the experience that's important. - What about the cooperative arrangements that we hear about, where a group of parents just get together and form a group, and then take care of it themselves? Is that legal? Can you be licensed, I mean? - It would be difficult for it to be licensed, but it's not particularly necessary to be licensed, unless you're hoping to apply for federal money or federal be included in different kinds of federal programs, so that an arrangement like that can work without being licensed. - Well, it's not like a licensed to sell mirrors-- - No, you can operate without a license. - Well, that's interesting. I never heard that before. Not necessarily desirable, but it would be possible to do that. So you're talking about that in a licensed childcare center, you have to have a specially trained staff? - Right. - Do you have any opinions on the use of volunteers for staff members? - The only problem with volunteers would be that if they aren't a paid staff member, they will have a tendency to be more reliable, if they're paid. If they're just volunteer, they might not necessarily always be there. And you just have to have staff members there all the time. - It's been our experience at the childcare center that a volunteer's enthusiasm wears off when the going gets rough. And that often, if the volunteers are from the KU community, that they aren't around when it comes final time or vacation time. So that really means that you have to have paid staff that you can count on coming. - Is there any place for the volunteer in addition to the paid staff? - Oh, definitely. - Sure. - I think volunteers can always be used as extra resource people. And certainly there are a lot of things that need to be done in a childcare center that aren't specifically involved working with the children. Volunteers are very useful and definitely needed. It's just that it would seem unwise to use that as the backbone for the staff. - What happens to the woman who's working full time, and has children to care for? What options are available to her? She couldn't possibly take part in a cooperative venture. - No, I think the working parent very much needs to know that there's a facility there that she feels is reliable and that she can trust, and it will be there every day, and that beyond paying for it, that you really can't spend much more time or have much more responsibility for how it runs, so that the only options available in Lawrence, at this point, are to check the ads for babysitting or to call the childcare centers enough in advance, and hope that you'll be able to enroll your child there. - And hopefully that there are places that if there are monetary problems in having some place to put your child, you know, if the woman has to work, then federal monies or something like that many times does help in paying for that. - Now, several times you referred to having to work. Do you see the childcare center as a way to take care of the children of people who really don't have an option, or is there a broader matter concerned with this? - Well, I feel, at this point, the emergency situation that is being created by people who absolutely have to work, I think the optimum situation would be to have daycare available to people who wanted to work, or who wanted to be away from their children, or for whatever reason, so that it shouldn't... You know, but at this point, it's like not even serving the people who are finding themselves in emergency kinds of needs. - What role do you feel that daycare plays for the American family? Every time I've been somewhere where there's been a discussion of childcare, someone has raised the question of, "What does this do to the American family structure?" You wanna comment on that? - I think the rule of daycare, the childcare center should be supplementary, of course, you know, in following with our traditional idea of the family. When the mother and the father both work, or, you know, one or both parents, the child then has a situation during the day, where he can learn, he can enjoy himself. It is not possible for him to be with a parent during the day. So this is the optimum place for him to be. Then he goes home and has the normal family life at home. - And especially with families getting smaller and smaller, many people seek preschool kinds of experiences for their child, just for the social aspect alone, just to have a chance for the children to be with other children also, I think. - Do you see it as part of the equalization of the male/female roles? Is this involved in the whole concept? - In a way it liberates the woman to be able to pursue some of her interests that she would like to, you know, to have a place for the child during the day, then she can either go back to school or work, so that she is free, as the male partner is too, to be able to do what she wants. - I think the time has come for us to accept questions or comments. If someone would like to call in, our number is 8644530. What about the development or the trend that seems to be developing of the commercial childcare centers? Do you have an opinion on that, the childcare centers that are operated for profit? - Although I've never even visited one, so I really didn't have anything to go by, except that the whole idea sort of rubs the wrong way. Like I was sort of opposed to the idea of making money by caring for children. It just seems... - Many of the childcare centers that flourished during the Second World War, who worked for profit, in a sense, because in order to get the number of women needed in the labor force, you know, many factories were setting up childcare centers nearby, where the mother would feel, you know, satisfied to work and know that her child was being taken care of. But I think what people generally are talking about it is really the question of, can Kentucky Fried Chicken Daycare Center really provide an adequate program if the purpose is to make money. - I think it can. I just think from the very beginning that there seems to be an emphasis on custodial care, and that ladies in white uniforms very crisply meet the needs of the children. - We have a call here. Good evening. - Yes, I would like to know about the results for the committee that met this afternoon on child care. - Could you talk to us a little louder? - Yeah, what were the results of the committee on childcare that met today? What decisions were made? - Did you people attend a meeting this afternoon on childcare? The call her is asking what were the results of the meeting? - Yes, we both attended, and the committee has been set up to find the building to house a permanent childcare facility to be opened when KU opens, either the end of August, beginning of September, whatever the day it is. And once the billing has been found, to begin to advertise and look for a director, and then hire the rest of the staff, planning to serve approximately 50 children and hoping to have some space for children under the age of three, as well as the traditional three to five group. - I think mainly ages one to three is what we had discussed. And also in March 1st, I believe, is the time when the proposal will go before the Student Senate. And we will be asking for money, to ask for another funding, where we can get some more money through the Kansas legislature. - The money that's being requested from the Student Senate would be for what purpose? I mean, what proportion of the total costs? You said at one time it was rather expensive to operate a daycare center. Is there somebody working on costs involved? - Yes, we discussed that today, and the money that we were talking about, we're asking for $2,500 from the Student Senate, sort of as seed money. And if we put this in in this one program, through social welfare, I believe, we would be getting back some more money to start out with a foundation of, say, $10,000. And this money would go from buying equipment, for setting up the building, you know, perhaps renting a building. And that's a problem now too. We aren't quite sure, you know, what facilities we will have to use. - Are there other plans for the establishment of new childcare centers? - Yes, there are. There are several other groups on campus trying to set up a service. There are people working in HDFL on a program. There are people in the School of Education, and also people on the commission are working with the same group to set up a school. The Federal Way Sisters are working on a temporary situation. - Could you tell us something about the differences among these various plans? The HDFL, what does that mean? That is mainly a research situation, isn't Judy? - Hopefully to set up a training grounds for preschool teachers and a model daycare kind of thing, so that others could be set up. - And the purpose of the one that the School of Education's working on. - That will be sort of a teacher training program also. There'll be graduate students, such as I am, in early childhood education, teaching in the school. And I believe the capacity for that group would be 20 with three, depending upon the facility. - Is there an undergraduate major in early childhood education? - No, you can get an emphasis, and anything in education would be a regular bachelor's in elementary education, but to get the certificate in early childhood, you would have to be on the graduate level. - So you've sort of identified four different arrangements here that various people are working on, is that right? The one in School of Education, one in... What department did you say? - HDFL. - Which is? - Human Development-- - Human Development and Family Life, is it? Maybe people in our radio audience might not know what those letters stand for. And then a group who would like a permanent childcare arrangement, and a group that wants an immediate childcare arrangement. And all those four groups are still working on that plan? - They're in the process. - Yes. - Are they together in any way? I mean, are they helpful to one another, or are they going... Is each group pretty much on its own? - I think each group is still in such an early stage that it's hard to, you know, I think the groups are having all they can do to work with themselves. Eventually, I think, hopefully, Lawrence would get to have enough childcare facilities that there could be something along the Daycare Association or something to try and help each other. - So, ultimately, you would anticipate that many options would be offered. Another plan that I've heard people talk about, the establishment of training for paraprofessionals, who would go directly into the home. Has there been any talk about that? - I haven't heard of anything like that in Lawrence. - Of course it doesn't help with what you pointed out, the need that that children have for association with one another. But there are parents who would prefer that, I suppose. What about parental participation or parental control in a daycare center? Another topic I've heard discussed a great deal. You have an opinion on that? - I think parental participation is very important in policymaking and in helping to keep the parent informed about what his child does each day, and the ways that he can help in the home to make more of a connection between home and school. But I feel that that is unreasonable to ask them to do the actual teaching and putting in the hours during the day, since they are usually employed full-time. - How should they be controlled? How should a childcare center be controlled? - Loosely . - I think that that unaffected ways to have a board set up of interest and concern people to help with policy-making decisions and general functioning. - When you spoke of licensing before, among those that are licensed, certainly there is some government control, isn't there? Excuse me, we have another call. Good evening. - Good evening. What psychological deterrence could there be in taking a child from his home and mother and placing him in institutionalized child care center? - Did you hear the question? What psychological consequences could there be taking the child from its mother and putting it in an institution, or institutionalized environment, I think she said? Well, are there some studies to indicate that there is some psychological effects on the child? - I don't have any statistics to rattle off at the top of my head, but it seems that some children do adjust better than others to being away from home, and that in a good childcare facility, that there should be arrangements made to make the separation as gradual and as easy-going as possible, and certainly that would be a good time to include the mother during the day and to keep the hours as short as possible, and to see that the child, usually if the child enjoys it, you can kind of rest assured that things are going well for him, and it's not a difficult separation to make. - And this also assumes that there's always a separation. Isn't there also a problem of simply the neglected child, who doesn't have anybody to be separated from? - Well, I think that it's often or sometimes the case, and that I feel some responsibility should be taken from somewhere to try and make the individual grow and be as whole and adult as possible. - We do have the federal child labor laws, as everyone knows. I read some statistics that indicated that the number of violations of these child labor laws were up 15% in 1970 over what they had been in 1969. One estimate was that there were at least 75,000 children in seven to eight, nine years old, who were working during school hours and in hazardous occupations. I sometimes get the impression, as we talk about childcare, that we're talking about the child coming from a rather perfect home background. It isn't always the way it is. - That's true. - Good evening. Good evening. - Ah, yes, I was wondering if there was any pending legislation on child care? - Any pending legislations you know of on childcare? - On state or federal level? - I suppose in either one. So we did have a recent veto with the Childcare Bill. I was wondering about the effects of the amendment to the social security bill, which does make it possible for an income tax deduction, a rather sizable income tax deduction for the care of children. This is available now, you know? It's been signed into law. I think it starts the 1st of July. - Right. - Does it not? There probably is-- - There probably is a lot that no one's aware of, hopefully, there is, but there's also some work being done on a state level to try and loosen up the restrictions involved in setting up daycare centers and to ease on the licensing, particularly, for children under the age of three. - Do you think it is too stringent? - Oh, I don't know. It's a hard kind of thing. - Yeah, I think they set them up with the idea that we're gonna have a quality situation, as if, you know, they set up these requirements. Very good, you know, for licensing. - I have heard some people say that they believe that some of the requirements are set up to prevent the establishment of childcare centers. I don't know about the truth of this. - I feel that certainly the licensing people in Topeka, which directly concerns our area, are extremely helpful and extremely willing to do all they can to help people in setting up new centers. - That's good. Are you having further comment or question? I'm sorry we don't know the precise laws that are are being considered. I recently saw a list from of congressional laws under discussion, and there were quite a number, which dealt in one way or another with child care. It seems that our time is up. I'd like to announce that next week we're going to talk about the politics of housework. And our guests will be Terry and R.A. Edwards. It should be a fun program as we will try to discuss an issue which has all kinds of ramifications for the sex roles, which men or women play in the family situation. Good evening. - This has been A Feminist Perspective. We hope you'll tune in again next week for another in this series of live programs. It's 7:30. The temperature, we're at 34 degrees, under partly cloudy skies.