- Good evening. Welcome to "Feminist Perspective." The purpose of these Monday evening programs, is to provide a forum for women to speak publicly on issues of concern to them. And help inform other women and men of the movement which is remaking the shape and substance of women's and men's lives throughout the world. Our format consists, first, of discussion by our guest panelists on a topic of interest to women. And second, an opportunity during the last 15 minutes, for listeners to participate by calling with comments or questions. Our number is 864-45-30. This program is sponsored by The Women's Resource and Planning Center located in the Dean of Women's office. We invite you to call our office at any time for information, or to inform us of your concerns. Better yet, come in person, to talk, or to use our constantly expanding women's library in 220 Strong Hall. Our guest panelists tonight are Judy Freed, a third grade teacher, who has also taught preschool and sixth grade and has substituted at all elementary levels. And Marianne Thomas from our office, who has also done counseling in grade school and research in Creative Behavior. And our topic tonight is Sex Roles Stereotyping. I think if you were listening to the news a moment ago, you would recognize that we've already had some sex roles stereotyping right before we began. That the announcer has chosen to pick a statement from Senator Ervin, the only member of the House or the Senate Judicial Committee, who voted unfavorably on the equal rights amendment. And yet he, considering himself the savior of women, is the one who is, chosen for quotation. I wonder, panelists, if that tells you anything about sex roles stereotyping. What do you, what's the term mean? - Sex role stereotyping really means, perpetuation of a set of attitudes, that are handed down and more or less predict what a person should say or do if he's to be considered acting appropriately within his sex role. - And that would also and, Senator Ervin then along with the other men have been trained to assume that women are a certain way and, therefore need protection. Would that follow? - It certainly would follow. - You'll have to pardon me for being a little annoyed by the selection of Senator Ervin of all people to speak on the subject to the equal rights amendment. Well, Marianne has told us something about what the term sex role stereotyping means. Judy, could you tell us a little bit about the effect of sex role stereotyping? - Yes, I see it daily at our school where from kindergarten on children are placed as boys as girls in lines, of a girls line of a boys line, girls' toys and boys' toys and activities for girls versus activities for boys. And something that's quite interesting in watching in the Playhouse situation. We're in a preschool situation. I think the children are a little bit too young to, be concerned with roles and both boys and girls are very free to play in the kitchen, sharing the duties and responsibilities. However, by kindergarten, I noticed that boys have learned that their job is to go to work, to go to school, repair things, and they do not like doing the housework jobs. Also by second and third grade boys shy away from playing this kind of game all together. It's like that sissy stuff. And they don't realize that their fathers in their homes just as real as mothers. - So by this time, the whole thing has taken effect where at what point are conceptions of masculinity and femininity transmitted to children. - I think at birth. The minute they put a pink or a blue ribbon on a child, and you hear comments from parents, "Oh, it's a girl" or "Hooray, it's a boy." - That certainly is true. We see it even in the handling of children. There's some research to indicate that the, way the parent handles the child transmits to that child some very definite feelings which he carries on later in his own activities. We see it in early preschool stages when they begin associative play. When they play house and so on, the father assumes sort of an authoritative role. - I noticed too that, little girls tend to fall down and hurt themselves, and somebody rushes immediately, picking them up, coddling them, telling them how sorry they are. However, if the same thing happens to a boy, it's kind of like, everybody stands back and says, "Well, get up. You're not hurt, you're all right." - When did you first become interested in this problem? Or, when did you become aware that sex role stereotyping was a problem? - I don't think I became aware of it until after I'd had a child, and noticed the type toys that my child received, which were all masculine toys. He never received anything like a baby or a stove or a refrigerator. Yet, these were his favorite toys to play with when he would visit another child. - How'd you know they were masculine toys? - I think because society labels as masculine toys. They're either balls or bats or-- - They were in that room or the store. - Yes. - Beside you'd you had experienced this yourself, hadn't you as a child? What people give you? - Girl toys. - Anybody give you any boy toys? - Yes, I had quite a few. I didn't get an erector set or a train though. And that was always a source of dismay because those were typically labeled, masculine toys. And little girls didn't play with them. - Yes, I have a friend at school who wanted to have a train and, she never received one. And she had expressed this feeling to her husband and feeling around for Christmas what they were going to give each other. He had planned to give her a train. And she said, "Well, I don't want it now." She said, "This is kind of what I had always wanted as a child." - The, Ellen Piper, who is the president of Carnegie Corporation is quoted in a speech he gave recently saying, "The roots of unequal treatment of women lie in early childhood. What is done in the schools, therefore, ultimately may be more important than anything done in higher education. Consequently, everyone involved in preschool, elementary, and secondary education should examine carefully all aspects of their work to see how unnecessary forms of early sex stereotyping can be eliminated." So let's talk a little bit about some of these early forms. Does language, for instance, affect school children? And if so, how? - Well, I have a quote here that was taken from a teacher in describing a method that she would teach. And she says, quote "You watch to see what he's interested in and go from there." And this is referring to both boys and girls. Another quote, "You take each child where you find him." Again, referring to both boys and girls. And I think this perpetuates the little girl's feelings that she hears him and he throughout her childhood to the point that she begins to question, why don't I ever hear her or she? And-- - Do you think she really questions it? - I think she D she might not question it intellectually at a young age, but I think she tends to place more value on boys than she does on girls, because she hears this so much. - What do you think, Marianne? - I think I agree with Judy. In every society that we know anything about, those jobs that are highly valued are jobs that are held by the male figure. - I'm wondering, I was wondering though about the language. It seems to me that, now that our awareness is has been raised so highly. Everybody, I mean, in the society who is singing at all about some of the things that are happening to women, and some of the things that haven't happened to them that should, that I feel on this very program, for instance, somebody mentioned to me, critically, after one of the shows that I had referred to someone as a chairman. This has become so much a part of our language that we have to remind ourselves to say chairperson or chairwoman, or remind ourselves that the how many words that are masculine are built into the language. And, it doesn't do any good to say they're just generic terms because, it would be just as generic to say her. But if you've seen some of the paragraphs simply transfer, transpose from masculine to feminine words, you easily realize that this is quite foreign to our language. - Another example of that might be the two terms president and secretary. President is usually, connotes male and secretary usually connotes female. - But that doesn't have to. Those aren't really male and female words the way a man is, and, him and he, and the masculine, pronouns. But I think you're right. That that's what people immediately think of when they use terms like that. - I think the same thing is, like with a doctor, you think of a man and a nurse of a girl. And an incident happened at my school, not too long ago in the first grade where a student nurse was giving a lesson. And I noticed at the lunch table that all these children were wearing hats. And I thought, "Gee, something's been going on." And then I noticed that the different colors had something to do with it. And I asked, well, why are all the girls wearing white hats, and the boys were in green hats? And the nurse said, "Well, the little boys were doctors and the little girls were nurses." And at that point, I was, you know, very disturbed that this would happen. And I think it would be very important for teachers at any level, to go into a training of role stereotype and be aware of this because daily things come up in the classroom, they refer to boys and girls. In our newspaper, in talking about Shirley Chisholm running for president, there is a big laugh from the boys. As if, a woman for president? And then, you know, instead of just dismissing it we sit down and talk about it. Is it, well why not? - Do they give you any why nots? - No, they really can't think of any. It's just this old standby. "Well, there never has been one before." And the same thing comes up when we talk about jobs for girls and, boys saying, "Well, they have to stay home and take care of the house." And that's another subject that we don't just dismiss. We sit down and talk about why women necessarily have to, you know, take care of the house. And again, they really have no answers. Just this is what they've been brought up with. And it's, these kinds of ideas that have to be changed. And I think teachers should be aware of this and be able to catch these things daily as they happen. - Judy's made a good point. Particularly in reference to job or vocational guidance. I would encourage people to not give the girls only the books about Nancy Drew, the student nurse, and whatever. But in our elementary schools, a place to begin encouraging them to think about being a doctor. - What about the, responsibilities in the classroom? Do teachers contribute to that by making these responsibilities sex related in some way? - I believe so, I think when it's something like a movie projector that has to be brought in or, film strip projector. It's very easy for, a teacher to ask the boys to do it. And, when girls bring in flowers, instead of asking a boy to go find a vase and wash it out it's usually a girl that is asked to do this. - What, about play equipment in the school? - I think it's the same kind of thing where boys tend to monopolize the balls and the bats and the girls take over the jump rope. We recently painted it, a hopscotch all thing on the playground and the boys wouldn't go near it. That's girls play. And yet, you know, when you ask them if they knew how to do it many of them were just embarrassed, because they've never played this and they don't wanna do it. And when we ran relays and have to do use a jump rope, the boys are again embarrassed. They won't do this in their free time. But when they have to do it as part of the game, then they're embarrassed that they don't know how to do it. - Well, we've been hearing a lot recently about textbooks. And how textbooks contribute to producing a certain stereotype. What are they really like? - I think again, the mother is portrayed as a woman at home, either in the kitchen or holding a baby. And father is the one with the briefcase, who's walking out the door. Going to work and leaving for the day. And again, this is, I think where the little boys in kindergarten pick up their ideas as to what they should play in the doll house. And it's not just textbooks. It's their library books that show, what do mommies do and what do daddies do? And I've only seen one or two books in the library in Lawrence where, women have really been shown taking you know, professional type jobs. And I think somebody should consciously go through the book list and provide a good library for all the school districts. - Well, how about in the textbooks. Are there pictures of men doing things other than just walking out with the briefcase? 'Cause a child wouldn't get any conception of what the man's work was from that. Well, except that he goes out and-- - Oh, there are pictures of men standing at airports, men as pilots, men as truck drivers, working on roads and equipment, being out fishing, things like that. - And they never show, none of the books you've seen show, textbooks have shown women doing it-- - No, they're usually at home or in the homes surrounding or at a grocery store doing females sex roles. - You know that many women's groups are investigating textbooks and demanding changes. Do you think these changes will occur? And if so, where? - I think the changes will occur. And we've had some evidence of that already. Some of the books I believe have been taken off the market. Hallmark have one out. What is a girl? - "What a little girl can be." - "What a little girl can be." And they had one for "What a little boy can be." And the little boy's book ended up with him being able to be president. And I believe the little girl's book ended up with her being able to be a mother. - A mom. But they have, Hallmark has taken it off the market which is fortunate. Now Hallmark, however, is not a publisher of textbooks. And do you have any knowledge or have you heard anything Judy about-- - I don't know. I think a new series that we have used in reading has done a very good job, as far as the, racism. I mean, this is one step where I think our books are very good in bringing in minority families and groups into the textbook. And so, I would feel that it was just a matter of time before this is brought in. But I think pressure has to be applied before it is changed. There's an excellent list in the new Ms. Magazine that I think could be used to advantage of a school librarian could, you know, be aware of these problems. And every year they're given a certain amount of money to buy new books for the library. And if they were, you know, I could even do this at my school, ask if, you know, certain books could be available and could be purchased. - What do you think would be the effect of having that kind of book in the library and still use the textbook or the reading book if the child has lots more contact with... Can you see any way that that could be? - Well, it's better to have it, whether, I mean, maybe the situation isn't ideal but it's better to at least bring it in. And then it's up to a teacher to point out things in the textbook. And, when she sees the mother at home, the teacher would be aware of the situation and say, "Now look, as you grow up, this doesn't have to be the way." I mean, you can almost make fun of the pictures you see in the books and question and ask the children now is this where you think you will be? And is this all you want to do when you grow up? Or, what do you see wrong with this picture? You know, you can almost use some of these bad pictures to advantage, to point out some of the absurdities. - Judy has mentioned the agent, which is the teacher. And this is an area that concerns me because I'm not at all certain that we're doing an effective job in teacher education and pointing out that these kinds of things aren't necessary and do need to take place. And I don't see a whole lot of awareness, at the student teacher level. - I noticed in the time that I we're, it's time for us to hear from the radio audience. If any of you care to call with the comments or with the questions, our number is 864-45-30. How about, subject matter? Is there a difference in subjects that boys and girls like best? That you've actually observed yourself? - I haven't noticed it on a primary level, actually. I think as you go on into high school, junior high school that you see more of that. But I haven't really taught in high school. So I can't give exact examples. - Some of the counseling problems that come up at the junior high and high school level on occasion, are centered around the young man who wants to take home economics or the young lady who wants to be in sharp. And there are no provisions. - We have a caller here. Hello. - Well, I have a question that does not deal specifically with the topic tonight but it does deal with the general nature of the program. At the University of Kansas, my wife who has lived in Lawrence for two years cannot enroll as an in-state student because I enrolled originally as an out-of-state student. Do you have any comment on that situation? - And I've even had friends, girls who are from Kansas who marry a man that is, you know, an out-of-state and she has to assume this out-of-state thing. And I think the only thing to do is take it into the office and ask for a petition, and put pressure on them to try to get them in-state. - That latter case was already taken care of. That's no longer true that a Kansan marrying an out-of-state man will start paying out-of-state tuition. But certainly the subject is, by no means exhausted. It's currently under study. And, I would agree with Judy that the best thing to do is to petition, semester after semester, to keep calling attention to this fact. There is a statewide organization who's working on it also. And everyone that I know feels that this is, definitely discriminatory. In a society where every individual, regardless of whether he or she is married or not, certainly should have a right to be treated as an individual. Michigan has passed such a law, incidentally. And the man and woman's domicile is not decided by just the man so, where the man lives. - I think another thing that brings up is a similar question and it was like this a year ago. I don't know if it still is like this, but if staff or a girl cannot live there if she is his student. It depends on whether the husband is a student. - Well, that's been changed too. - Is that changed also? - We have made some progress. So I would suggest that to our caller, that we continue, to work on it. Do you have any other comments? - No, that's all, thank you. - If there are other callers, our number is 864-45-30. - One thing that we haven't mentioned is the parent's role in sex role stereotyping, and how their attitudes, so toward what tasks are feminine and what tasks are masculine cause them to differentially motivate or stimulate the male child or the female child. And, I think that, you know, maybe calling this to people's awareness may be a start. One thing that comes to my mind in the creativity work that we did at Kent State. Those children whose parents on interview were less concerned with them being masculine or feminine, per se, were the ones who showed more creative ability. They had more divergent production. They had many different answers for a problem. - Maybe they didn't have to stop all the time and think of is this what I'm supposed to say? Or if I'm supposed to be doing? So you're commenting on it. We've talked about pressures that children have for from teachers and from parents and anybody else. What about their peers? They get any pressures from them that define themselves in certain ways and call it masculine and feminine? - A good deal. Beginning about the age of seven or eight. If you're going to be in the in group, you do what they do. And for girls, this means that you're more concerned with having long hair. You don't want your hair cut short. And this is just an example. You play certain kinds of games. You have a certain affective responses, such as giggling together. And we see this around the age of nine. It's also true for boys but the point is that they're not the same kinds of things. Boys are not to be dependent, or to strive for independence where girls are reinforced for their dependency role. - I have seen incidents in school where boys in like fourth or fifth grade have tended to be quite artistic, and maybe not very athletic at that point. And, those certain boys when forced oh at a PE period to play a game, are really made fun of. And yet when that child displays a certain work of creative art, no one is really praising him and saying, "Well, that's as important as being able to kick a kickball." And it's, our whole set of values is what we think is valuable. And is kicking a ball important or the art? And I think a lot of fathers perpetuate is at home. It's like, they don't want their little boys doing the dishes and setting the table. - We have another caller here. Hello. - Hello. I was just curious if you could make any kind of generalizations about the public schools in Lawrence. Whether there's one school in particular for, particularly primary grades where a female child wouldn't have to be subjected to so much sexual stereotype or-- - No, I can't. I don't teach in Lawrence and I don't know of any, you know, I couldn't pinpoint that to a specific school. I would just say it's general throughout our whole public school system. - But surely it would be true, would it not, that there would be individual teachers who would be espousing the same point of view that we are here and would be doing the same kind of thing that-- - Well now, there is one school in Lawrence where they have in a kindergarten program, an all boy kindergarten and an all girl kindergarten. - What's the point of that? - I don't know. I think, from the educator's standpoint, it's like, girls are more mature at a kindergarten level and they, do better with other girls rather than you know, playing with the boys. - That caller have a comment on that? - It's difficult to hear. I have confirmed what I thought that it would probably vary across individual teachers rather than school systems. You don't know of any plans that are being made in Lawrence to, within the schools to investigate their the sexism that exists in their schools? - No, I don't. - We do have a career planning program in the Lawrence schools and we have to get someone who is connected with that to come and tell us what is happening in-- - What about the private schools in the primary grades in Lawrence. What's the condition in that? - Are you thinking of the free schools? - Yeah, primarily. - I would just guess that they are less role stereotype than the public schools. Just totally because they're freer in everything. And, people who are involved with the free schools, I think are more aware of this whole problem. - There are, the private nursery schools though that I have heard that some of them do perpetuate the same kind of sexual stereotypes that it may be what the parents expect to the point where they wouldn't send the child if, this wasn't done. - Yeah. I don't really think parents are that aware of role stereotypes. Most parents aren't that aware that they even ask that. - Thank you. - Thank you. Perhaps not in those terms. But I'm not so convinced that, this is an unconscious mechanism. It seems to me that we hear enough from people about the fears that they have that a child will not grow up to know what role he or she is supposed to play. You know, as if these things were already decided somewhere else so, to make me wonder whether it is true that these are unconscious mechanisms on the part of the parent. - One example of that I'm sure was quite conscious was a major professor of mine, not at this university, in Human Growth and Development, by the way, who made the statement in class about him having his son being permitted to pick up the material for making his new set of pants. And he said, "No, son of mine is going to wear flowered pants." Of course, we called him to task thereafter, but did not convince him. - The, our time is almost up. Our program next week is on, women in higher education. This will be somewhat different from what we have done before. We will be bringing you an interview with Shirley Chisholm, who as you know, is a candidate for president of the United States and, Bunny Sandler, who is an associate in the American Association of Colleges. And as a member of the Women's Equity Action League has done a great deal to bring to the attention of government the fact that the executive order forbidding sex discrimination is in fact not being enforced, very well. I want to thank our panelists, Marianne Thomas and Judy Freed for joining us tonight. And thank you for listening. - This has been a feminist perspective. Tune in again next week for another in this series of live programs. It's 7:30, you're tuned to public radio, KANU Lawrence. And now by recording traditional jazz. These programs are prepared by two long time exponent of traditional jazz, both members of the University of Kansas faculty, Dr. Richard Rupert, Associate Professor of Economics and Dr. James Hillis Haim, Associate Professor of Education. For the next half hour, traditional jazz. - It seems tonight like you're hearing things double. That's exactly what we're intending because we're going to play some early versions of some tunes, and follow that with some more contemporary versions of the same tune.