- Doug is finishing his PhD in clinical psych program here at the university of Kansas and Sylvia Hollowell. Sylvia has just completed her master's in social work at K the spring. And she has spent the last year with a group of women professionals and non-professionals in the Kansas city area discussing sexist counseling how to desex their own counseling techniques and be aware of sexual biases and low expectations in their own counseling. She's recently established a private practice here in the Lawrence community. And may wish to talk a little bit about that during the program. A feminist perspective is brought to you by the women's resource and career planning center located in the Dean of women's office 222 strong home. This resource center has been developed to respond to the special needs of women at this time as they rethink their career expectations and own roles in today's contemporary society. 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I think in the past few years at the American psychological association meetings, as well as many other the professional meetings and the field at the various fields, feminist very angry women have spoken out against, against the kind of therapy and mental health counseling that women have had in the past the radical therapist, a publication of articles by people who are in ways trying to change mental health profession has accused psychologists and social workers of being the, the soft placement of today's society and building cells out of expectations and roles, and should in the case of women, how would you respond to this? And do you feel, have you felt some of this yourself and in your own training start wherever you want How do you respond to that? - I suppose then the thing that strikes me first in reference to that issue is probably the necessity of breaking down therapy as it's talked about into a body of theory or knowledge or a belief about how people are and how people should be as well as the kind of social publicity that goes on through the formal and informal voices of psychologists, psychiatrist social workers, and their mental health professionals To distinguish that somewhat from exactly what goes on within the therapy relationship. I think the sexist and nonsexist attributes that was differ somewhat and probably sometimes get into confusion when people are trying to discuss ways in which to remove themselves from what they would probably what I guess I personally would see as a negative or a policemen role in relationship to people. I guess specifically what I'm thinking of is in my own training and experience I have found it on one level are very painful and yet rewarding experience to find the kind of biases and projections that I come into a relationship with the kinds of things that I walk into a door and meet another person with the kinds of values I have about who that person should be can be, how I can be with them. At the same time, I found it even more frustrating and irritating the kinds of things I see in print, hear on the radio and generally it kind of I'm surrounded by as the general theory of what mental health means, what change means. And I find that I guess even more frustrating because I'm not quite as sure how to change that. It's a little easier for me to talk about how to change myself. I find it much more difficult to get in terms of changing the system of beliefs and attitudes people have. - I don't know if, if this study would refer really to the prison concepts that you were talking about that a couple by the name of Broverman did a study in a Massachusetts mental hospital which is rather famous along the lines of sexual stereotypes in the mental health profession and what they found essentially in interviewing about 90 different professionals of all persuasions psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers was that there's a double standard of mental health. And they found that, for example, in order to be healthy women had to be more submissive less independent, less adventurous, easily influenced. And the professional saw that women flew off the handle and minor crises, more easily, this kind of thing. So that when a woman sees a professional who believes it's kind of a double standard then in order to be healthy the woman has to be radically different from the man. And in a sense that isn't a prison or a cell it's a mental cell that the woman finds herself in. - And certainly if you are different from those expectations you begin to wonder if you are unhealthy mentally and that's a very scary thing - Right If you're an aggressive or adventurous kind of woman and then often if you're going into a counseling situation you'll be made to feel guilty for being like that for being aggressive or adventurous. - I kind of like ask a question of both of you. I think that, you know, so many of the older therapists were schooled in the, the Friday and or the, you know, the more traditional theories of psychotherapy and some of the new things that are coming up. Well, they're not really so new because jobs and the awareness groups, I think I our tribe really making an honest effort to overcome the kind of stereotyping that she talking about. Don't she think that a lot of this is really going to change very fast as the younger people come up through these these groups and these influencers, because I think so many times where I attribute the stereotyping and the sexist counseling to, or therapy too, is the kind of the old therapies, the old personality theories and I'm wondering if there isn't really a new thing coming up now, that's going to make a big difference. What do you think? - May I say something I was reading this last night kind of preparing for what I might say today, along the lines of the encounter and the gestalt and all of that, what these can do is get men and women together in groups where they become friendly break down barriers that there's a certain temporariness or artificiality about these, and the same kinds of attitudes can go on in encounter groups, you know where men still treat women as sex objects and they may be overcoming certain barriers but it's still not a person to person thing. You know, it's not an adult to adult interchange. And I don't know, I guess I personally have some I would question some of that. Some people have I've ran in some of the humanistic psychology So like Maslow and have done some research and really picking through their their writings and found that their writings are also they still have that underlying bias against women or making a large distinction between men and women and emotional distinction. - Hmm. Well, I think in anything that would concern me out so I sort of share your optimism that things are really changing. At least as things have been talked about and American psychological association meetings and other kinds of meetings which indicates a huge case for a few years ago. But one of the concerns is that the older therapists and the older people who have developed these theories are teaching positions and their students go through, you know, to become a student of a person that these kinds of theories and the younger people they move into the therapeutic settings but not as often into the teaching settings I don't think Now of course you're getting an exception when you're involved in training and teaching and training counselors. - I think the kind of influences we're talking about must be very, very subtle very subtle because I haven't, I'm not as aware of them as the three of you are currently, but before, you know when I was preparing for the show I talked to my number of the members in my department and it was trying to grill them about what they would do with certain kinds of problems and so on and I can't find it. I can't find it. Maybe it's our Bureau. Maybe it's the people that I worked with, but I have a hard time finding what we're talking about here. And yet I know, you know, talking talk to women clients of mine, and I know that they feel the kinds of pressures you're talking about, the kinds of stereotyping. - One of the things that I think concerns me that was brought to mind when you were asking you know, our reactions to some of the new humanistic and encounter kinds of movements, is that my experience in a lot of these in groups and in working with a lot of these leaders has been the personal biases or sets of leaders are often equally as important in determining like the tone of the group. And what kinds of interpersonal issues are dealt with as are the more publicized value aspects of what they're doing. For example, I've noticed some leaders always have groups that get into some kinds of sexy encounters. Some leader always have groups that seem to have angry problems. What concerns me is I haven't met very many leaders who attribute that to the, their own draw from people to their own set that they project in terms of what's an acceptable way to be. What's a rewarded way to be in that context. And probably what concerns me most is I really don't see that much attention being given to the specific issue of what function does it have in a relationship if one person's male, one person's female what effect does that have on the therapy? What effect does that have on the possible goals or changes? And until I see that much more openly ascribed to you know, by therapists and I suppose by clients really because I think it's a two-sided problem then I can't get real optimistic. You know I have a little optimism but not as much as I think maybe you do. - Hmm. Well, I, I think maybe the, the subtlety that that I feel is there and maybe the rest of you see it repeated differently as a woman who feels unhappy and angry and who thinks she has a problem Who had admitted, said to herself I have a problem. And I went to go get some help, goes to a person. And several things can happen I mean the anger maybe very justified. She may be in situations which should produce anger You know it's a sign of health. And instead she's told to adjust, she should, you know get rid of this anger, that, and some other kinds of things. And I think that's the kind of subtlety and she feels very she's very vulnerable at this point cause she's already said she's sick. And he says, and then if the male therapist might say yes indeed you are sick you know, you need to, to be content with these certain kinds of roles, for instance staying at home with children or something in these kinds of ways. - You know I think when I respond to them that really kind of reactors. I know that there are that there are therapists all over who do say things like that, but a good therapist, doesn't say something like you know, you got to get rid of your anger or you've got to adjust to these rules, a good therapist lets the client design what she or he wants to do. They don't go around directing. Although, you know, I read I read things all the time and I hear my clients say, well this person told me to do such and such. And I think, Oh, you know, did they really? - If a person goes around saying you ought to do this, if a therapist goes around saying you ought to do this, you ought to get control of your anger get rid of it or fit into this role. That person's not a good therapist period. They wouldn't be a good therapist for a man or for a woman, I don't think if that's what they do. I don't know do you agree or? - Yeah I basically I do agree with that. However, I'm wondering if I think that all therapists or counselors, I really prefer to see myself as a counselor rather than therapist, because I don't really feel that I heal anything. I lost my thought there A counselor can't help but make their values known to counselee It's bound to come across, you know in conversation in nonverbal communication. You know, for example if a male therapist somehow really believes that a woman is more feminine if she wears a mini skirts than slacks, if she wears a usually wear slacks to therapy or to the counseling session but one day she wears a miniskirt and he says Oh or he stares at her legs or something like this. Then the message comes across, you know, his his bias comes across. So I don't know. I agree. Yes. Being too directive is not good counseling. I think that a lot of the anger stems from from the old theories that you were referring to earlier Diana especially for psychology and those, and I think in that sort of pop culture, that is very much a part of today's world. A lot of people feel that this is where psychology is and there certainly are people who were trained in this school and are still being trained or still studying that kind of thing seriously - Do you feel that the students who come through or the clients who come to you are pushing at the field in this area? - I think that the women that I've seen in the guidance Bureau are definitely pushing at it. Very definitely - In terms of asking for changes in the program or just in their own awareness as counselors. - No, I'm talking about my clients rather than the students. Yeah. The clients are pushing for awareness as women and you know, this kind of thing very much so. And I've seen quite a few women right now - Do you feel that some of these women are coming to you just because you are a women in the guidance Bureau at this time. - Well they were referred to me by someone else, friends, or in this case but I think there's a number of the people I see are coming because I'm a woman now yeah They feel that there is a different perspective there And I don't know whether this is right or wrong, I mean true or untrue, but this is there belief This has been said often enough. Personally, I don't think it's entirely true. But if this is the belief, you know this is an important, very important thing. - I just, I can respond to that from my own experience. Several years ago, I got some counseling myself and from a male counselor. And now, you know, as I look at my own life if I was seeking someone, I wouldn't seek a male counselor. I think I maybe that's a certain kind of sexism in reverse, but it's temporary. I feel that if I were seeking counseling I would want to talk to a woman simply to get her feedback and I how she feels about the same the things that I've been going through and becoming more aware - It raises an issue for me that I would like to get some response to. And that's the issue of what sorts of things could we do as therapists to communicate to our clients either directly when they come to us individually or in general, how to find out what kind of counselor you're getting You know like part of the old school. I think that we're all talking about it. Is kind of the bad guys. Part of the concept was the therapist is a blank screen a therapist personality does not really affect what goes on within the therapy session. And I think this has been disproven enough in enough different ways that it shouldn't be an issue one way in which I feel it is is I find a great deal of reluctance on the part of the therapist to identify their values openly to clients to say to a client, you know I really don't think I can understand you because I'm a man I'm white, I'm, you know whatever the variable might be. And I again I see that as a two way street because I find that clients come to me expecting me to be an expert on everything. And I feel it very difficult to communicate to them sometimes that I really don't understand. And the, maybe just maybe their feeling of not communicating to me might be as much my problem is their problem. And that's something that I would like to find out how you guys feel about that issue. And also maybe what we can do about it. - What you're sort of encouraging is for people to shop for counselors or therapists to like not believe that the counselor has all the answers and is kind of a little God who whose omnipotent or a mission sees everything. - Right that all therapist are the same - Right right. I don't know. I think that for one thing, the profession, people in the profession are going to have to be more honest about that fact that we don't, you know see into the mind we don't have magic and may contracts. I think if I, you know I really tried to establish with a person you know why did you come, if you can, can you tell me as precisely as possible what you want to do with me, you know? And keep me re-working that contract, you know time after time - One thing I would really be the people in the field really examining their own motives and your own values because how many people do you know who are in the field who have never been in any kind of counseling or therapy themselves, a lot of people. And not that that's necessarily the only way to examine your values, but we really should. I think a lot of people are just kind of in it blind. And so they're not even in a position if the client were to try to establish what the person's values are. I'm not even sure that I think I'd be very threatening question to an awful lot of people. - Yeah. I think that you're assuming that we all know what our biases are so we could tell them to the, to the client. And I know I'm not sure that Diane is that, you know, as, as as I've gone through some thinking of the witness even I keep uncovering things that myself just dispensed in this magazine or last months magazine had a picture of a baby on the cover with a bow in the hair and as you read you find that this was a boy baby. You know, that immediately I made the assumption and I'm sure many people did that this is a little girl baby. And just done lots and lots of labels. There's these little ques that you key off on and make some decisions about who that person is. And so I think it is a kind of constant process. Really a good counselor would need to be in a constant process for the other counselors perhaps the kind of thing that you can do. - And I think that the client provides maybe the best you know, if you're really open and the client is such a challenge always to you to to reappraising your own values. And you know, if you really open it, you don't if you're trying not to operate out of your closed system, the client I think that my clients this year have been fantastic and making me grow. - Yeah I think it's a good point. Both of those seem very good points to me because I know three or four years ago it never would have occurred to me to consider that I couldn't work with a woman because she was a woman. And it took a lot of personal experiences. Some of which I think are what you're talking about Diane of clients proving to me that I really do have blind spots other than involving things like being in a liberation group to find out what some of my biases were talking with other people who were trained to fight the same battles in terms of coming up with a system of beliefs that fit for what they wanted to do. And I guess I also agree that I don't see that happening. Like you say, Janet often enough for most people to be able to say here's the kind of therapist I am, you know, label me I'm a feminist counselor. I'm a, whatever the label might need that someone feels really describes them to the client. - Yeah I think in the shopping around idea, you're always going to find counselor with his own or her own set of biases. It's just being aware would be the important thing Then being able to disclose to the client they would necessarily have to leave and seek another counselor. But at least I would be aware also that on guard with you that these are some of your biases because we're all going to have them you know they can't shop around and find an unbiased counselor I think that the training programs, they're producing counselors be they the master's in social work programs or the other programs here on campus. You do see some struggling within those programs sometimes on behalf of the students outside of the classroom to rework some of these ideas. I think the, the point where it's really much harder to do is when you're actually involved in daily job in a counseling setting to provide the time for yourself with other counselors to keep up this kind of personal growth. Once you've left the academic setting you're supposed to sort of arrived That's when you started really, really growing I think - But do you feel that that has been built in for you Diane or that's something that's just sort of happened out of your own initiative or would it be possible not to have refined a lot of these things? - I don't think considering the clients I've had this last year, that it would have been possible for me at least not to have experienced all of those people and not grown tremendous amount really it's been fantastic but we don't talk as much as I think we should and maybe we will about our own personal values Again, it's a question time. - But I think anyone who's counseling in the setting of that at a university community is being pushed a little more by their clients than perhaps they would be in your same Doug where the client may be a little more in awe of your educational attainment. And a little bit disadvantaged in relationship to you and education and and not feeling as comfortable to push against you. I think that would having more in, in welfare departments and in community mental health agencies and family and children's service agencies where the clientele maybe a little different in terms of having thought out some of these things themselves. - Yeah. I think that makes me think of something that has frustrated me time and time again and as I've felt like I wanted very much to like radicalize a group of people that I was experienced in contact with. And that was defined like how even though people have been victimized in a social learning sense, you know, like we talk I think about women learning that they are one down in any kind of relationship with a man, even though people learn that, you know, they very soon take it on and make it part of themselves and actively maintain it. And I guess that to me is related to what you mentioned, Jan, because I find even when I go into a session with someone and try very hard to communicate directly and indirectly how I see myself that oftentimes what is brought those people there is much ambivalence and most behavior that is relating to me as though I were an expert. - How do you dispel that? Do you have any, I mean you sometimes you know you can't just come out and say like, you know you can't tell the client, I don't know anything. You can not say that. How do you demystify yourself? - That's a good question. I found sometimes sharing similar experiences. I've had communicates that I know what it feels like Sometimes simply saying directly that I don't know works less often than I would like. I think you're right there For me that's something I'm really struggling with a lot and I don't have an answer. That's something I would really like to be more comfortable with was how to demystify what I do. I think what you're doing has a lot of interesting implications because I think there are a lot of ways in which of the settings, both physical, you know the buildings we're in and the labels we present ourselves to our clients with can go a long way in either mystifying or demystifying. Sometimes I feel like that because I am what is considered a mental health center that rings all sorts of bells for people that don't often fit with what I think is relevant for that particular person. Have you found it less of a problem now that you're doing private work - Right. I'm just getting into my office which is in a house, it's a room and there are other things going on in the house. It's a kind of a community service center here in Lawrence and it's church related. So I think that now the houses owned by a church. And I think that, you know, being in a house and I don't use the labels of mental health I don't see them as mental problems. There are problems in living that people bring and, you know, I have problems in living. We all do. And I see myself as contracting with people to work specifically on problems. And I think that that will help, you know I spent some time at the same clinic that you're at and I think that has a lot to do with it the physical setting and the labels. It's hard for me to say because I'm not really that much into what I'm doing yet, but I'll report to you in 6 months Well it's time for us to take a station break and we'll come back later to discuss the problems and women seeking mental health, counseling and therapy in this community and from the profession at large. So join us again in a moment for a feminist perspective - welcome back to a feminist perspective. We're discussing the problems of women seeking health counseling with Dr. Diane Kelly from the guidance Bureau, Doug Rit from the Bert Nash Community mental health center, and Sylvia Hollowell who has recently established a private practice in Lawrence and has worked with the problems of women professionals trying to desex their own counseling techniques. We'd like to invite you at this time. If you have any questions or comments you would like to share with any of us to call 864-4530 We'll listen to your question live and attempt to respond to it. So if you have any questions that you would like to share with us call 864-4530 So yeah, I wish I could share a little bit with us some of the things you've been doing over the past year with the women professionals, how did you get together? Did you feel some of these things weren't covered in your training? And this was an out of classroom experience you set up for yourselves or what was the motivation behind it? - It was definitely out of a classroom and it wasn't associated with the school here. Two social workers in Kansas city actually started the group. They just contacted some women professional psychologists social workers, and also other women they knew that would be interested in the whole area of psychology and the mental health professions Even though they weren't professionals and we had an all day meeting on a Saturday and brainstormed about every issue that we could think of. And from there we developed it, we are in the process of developing a referral service in the Lawrence, Kansas city are. - Well we can talk a little bit about this in a moment. Right now we have phone call from one of our listeners. Hello? - Yes. Hello. I am calling for the simple reason that many people in the industry are not associated with university functions or women's health And I found an excellent book on the market that discusses not only psychotherapy but all the other aspects of women - ...selecting a councilor We're also going to be doing some things helping lay people, teaching people who haven't been through professional training programs, some basic skills in counseling. And if it's okay with the counselee these people can sit in on counseling sessions and learn some of these skills. We're very open. We hope non hierarchy, hierarchy, or group. And those are some of the things we hope, you know they don't branch out. Maybe we'll write a book. - Do you feel was a helpful addition to your own training? - Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. I don't think that if I hadn't gotten involved in this group I probably wouldn't have done some the research that I've done this year in the literature. I wouldn't have best grown personally. I feel like it's all kind of gone together to bring me to the point, you know, I am. I probably wouldn't be doing the counseling I'm doing now. If it hadn't been for some of these contexts - Doug you mentioned that in the past few years that you had been part of a men's liberation group were these men from the counseling field? - Most of thee people were involved in the clinical site program that I was in. We had a few people who were friends and I think in a sense what you're describing as maybe Laney psychologist, in other words people who were very interested in the idea of developing human potential utilizing groups to try to get to a basis of what we brought to the relationship that might get in the way of our own personal growth and our ability to relate to others. I was really struck by what the caller mentioned in terms of the female orientation of much of the liberation writings and talking. I became aware of that. I think when I first got interested in what women's liberation as a movement and a philosophy had to say to me and I discovered it was quite a bit later that I started thinking about what was involved for me as a man and as an individual in some ways I think it's very similar and very direct. I think something that's become quite openly discussed, which is the thing that if you really believe that sex roles are inhibiting then one person gain is bound to be another's gain. But I think even more directly from me, I discovered a lot of ways in which I had a great deal of difficulty relating to other men because of some of the perceptions I had of what was expected of me, what was drawn for me in that context, that was in some ways a completely different issue for me than what happened between him and a woman and something I really hadn't spent much time looking at That's something I guess I'm very glad to see happening and changing some what now. - And Diane, in your program that you're affiliated with in the counselor, training of counselors a lot of them for secondary education roles. I think one of the most striking things I remember in the past year was a film called Growing Up Female filmed by a feminist from Antioch college showing a high school counselor reading to a young woman the attributes of a good wife. And I think of course, this is the kind of thing that that I'm sure it weren't many places not into anymore but certainly there are a lot of counselors in schools who maybe would be in the some soft policemen role laying out some backstage expectations to her vulnerable age in terms of peer acceptance. Do you see a lot of people going out into the secondary education field now with different ideas about what man women's roles might be? - That's really kind of a difficult question. The people that I see, I think the people in our practicum that I'm working with and that I know, I think do not would never do something like that. But again, it's difficult to tap into a person's really fundamental stereotypes or values. And perhaps we should do much more of that. I really can't say no, or yes. I hope that we're turning people out who are for people's liberation, no, freeing everyone up really. - I think many of the young women in high schools now are would be pushing against counselors also. I know in the high school here there was a women's liberation group and I'm sure some of those women would push against any kind of counselor who tried to hold that expectation as a woman you will be a good wife and here's some of the things you should be in this way - We have a tremendous number of women in the master's program and a number of women doctor students too. And now I know quite a few of those women and I know that they are definitely going out with a very different kind of idea than that which is describing that film. But I think most of the men are too, are like that. The ones that I know are and so far as we've been able to challenge their beliefs and this is something we do We try to keep an eye out for - In some of the counseling that marital problems related to marital problems, that a couple seek do you find them asking for one sex or the other or women who don't feel comfortable with a male therapist or maybe the necessity of co-counseling where man and women are both represented to sort of empathize and affirm the feelings of the other person. Do you see much of this being done in the field? And do you think this is a healthy sign, or do you feel that people will respond to this kind of request for a male and female counselor especially in marital problems - I'm for it, for a male and female counselor seeing couple I haven't done any of it yet, and I'm not aware of a lot of it in the field, probably the most famous couple is the Masters and Johnson clinic in St. Louis, which does primarily counseling around sexual problems and sexual dysfunctions. But I think that, I know the social welfare school is not, as far as I know, have any focus on, you know training joint counseling, joint counselors but I think it's a good thing. - We have done this on a number of occasions in the bureau this last year, and I've done this with several people with another male counselor and it's very, I think it's a very good, a very good thing to do. - A lot of things come out knowing you have both sexes represented that it's really a foursome. - Did the clients ask for this kind of therapy or - Well on a couple of occasions, yes and on some other occasions we have just suggested that this might be a good thing to do Well always if the clients, you know, they are ready for it but this is something that we're very open to doing it. And it's really been, it's been very I think it's been very successful what we've done so far - In the Bert Nash clinic. - I've just been working at Bert Nash a short time. My impression is that there is a great deal of endorsement of the value of co-therapy and I think a great deal of realization that the sex of the therapist is an important consideration in making up a co-therapist team. One of the problems that we've run into has been the economics. We find, and I'm sure a lot of people working in this field do, that we have a phenomenal number of people coming to the center asking for some kind of counseling and it becomes very expensive for us to have two therapists for a couple or for an individual. Probably the compromise that often comes up would be like a couples group run by a male and female therapist. I find, like I say, a great deal of endorsement of the value of it, putting it in practical, effective use has been a lot harder. - Well, I think that many of them had the marital problems that are presenting themselves as well as many of the problems that men are now bringing to therapy relate to the new rule thinking and role orientation that they're struggling with a reaction to and every women that they're living with So trying to understand why someone that loves them is also so angry with them, you know and some of these kinds of things. So I think that as men counseling too that this will definitely be a phenomenon for probably some men who could not be counseled by a woman at this point, because of some of the personal hassles that their having I don't know if you've had any men who come to you Doug who would like to talk in this area. - It's interesting, there are a few people I've run into at Bert Nash who have stated sex as a preference, that happened much more at KU in the same clinic when I was there Again I think related to some of the things we've talked about when you have a population coming in it's very verbal and very aware of some of these issues. They're more likely to bring it up. I don't know for me, that's a very interesting question. The whole idea of how much does the sex of the therapist get in the way of a person's ability to talk or to grow in the directions they're interested in. That's an issue. I guess I'm very uncertain about. I have gone through periods of feeling very definitely that there should not be a male seen a female client and vice versa. I don't feel that way strongly right now. Some of the reasons being that I I have found much less difference in the way that males and females project their sexual bias into that relationship. That doesn't make me insecure about saying that if I see a man, I really want to be able to help him in a sex role free way and vice versa, you know, for women in some ways I think that a crucial issue is that it does make it less difficult for the client to deal with the client's problems and not deal with the therapist problems. That is something I have a personal faith in that there's something about the tension and the power relation that often happens when a man and woman get together that is much harder to overcome then those same issues that come up between men and between women. But like I say, I have also been surprised at how often I see females therapist laying very heavy sex role trip on a woman client, and male therapist laying a very heavy trip on their men. Oh you've got to act like a man? You know, let's go out there and playing baseball together. And this is their, I approached the therapy - An indicator where so much does depend on the counselor herself or himself and the orientation and where that person is really at because certainly some women are very very traditional in their viewpoint. Like you're just going to a woman, does not ensure that you're going to have non-sexist counseling at all. Certainly not all women support know the women's movement. They're very threatened. So I think in shopping for counselor you have to be careful and know the right question and ask the right questions and still rather take my chances though that perhaps a woman would understand more readily some of the struggles that a woman faces. - I think the idea that your referral group has is very interesting and asking the counselor to disclose a little bit about their bias and that relates to what we're talking about earlier. Not every counselor being in touch with other values are, but at least you know somebody gets past the sex thing because I feel that ultimately we would like for people to choose counselors as persons who they think would understand their hassles and not on the basis of sex, because as you were saying that doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a certain kind of counselor either That may be the kind of expectation that many people bring to you Diane in the guidance bureau that you're a women and so they're there because they assume you're going to have certain ideas about the women's movement. - Some of the women do, some of the women just assume that because I'm a women therefore, the other the other way and some of the men come in I think with the expectations that I'm going to be a big sister or a mother. - I'm kind of curious. What kinds of questions would you suggest that a woman ask have you formulated that yet out of the work that you've been doing? As I imagine one of your listeners would probably like to know what they should ask. - Yeah when I said it I thought, you know that's sort of I started to develop a while back a questionnaire just a general questionnaire that would get at what sexual stereotypes were all about. Like, I don't know how you would get at the values of the therapist. Let's see if I were seeking a nonsexist counselor I guess I would ask them, you know what do you think feminine is? You know, what do you have to do to be a feminine person or masculine person? And, you know, if I were coming to you, for example Diane as a counselor, I would say, you know what do you think feminine is? What do you think masculine is? And based on your answer I would make some assessment about where you were at on it. You know, if you said all men are aggressive and women cry easily you know things like that I would probably say, well, I don't think she's funny. That would be one question that immediately comes to mind. I think that would be a lot of them. And perhaps what listeners could do would be do some thinking, you know on their own about, you know, pushing their own thoughts. What kinds of questions could you ask a counselor? - Do think that many counselors would respond? I thinking that usually a professional relationship when you go in to a physician or a lawyer or a counselor or anything you don't really the opportunity is not built in and you may be able to create it for yourself. The opportunity is not presented to you to find out a little bit about that person. - And this is, I have very strong feelings about this because I think this is some of the real failings of the profession we were talking about this earlier, and I don't think that clients need to be intimidated by counselors. You know the client is the consumer. You're paying for the service of a counselor. If you go to an attorney you're paying for the service. If you go to IRS income tax person, you pay for the service. I think you have every right to ask the council to clarify their position. And if they won't then maybe they're not a good counselor, I mean it seems like a person not to be willing as a counseling to to say what their value are and what they think masculine and feminine is. That's not a loaded question. It's an honest question. - I think that the person asking that question she probably made it clear that they're not certain that they want to get into this kind of relationship with this person yet and they want to know the answers to these questions for the very reason for that very reason, because if they just came in. So where do you think feminine is? I imagine a counselor might turn around and say what does it mean to you? - You have a problem with that. - Always putting it back in client? It's a very angry - Make me angry - Clients have asked me some things personally about myself and I think that's their attempt to determine whether I'm someone that they can talk to. So when I say I'm single when I have children, this sometimes I think it's sufficient or frees them up to do that. Maybe finding out something, just something personally about the counselor, the therapist would help. - And we don't really build that in that opportunity. And I think it's very difficult It would take a person with a certain amount of aggression to be able to even to do that much. I think anyone who's ever gone into a physician's office and sit in the other place, I mean, we all know how we feel and how out of place that kind of questioning might seem. - And in our training, you know we're told to keep your personal keep yourself personally out of it. And so we're really trained in the opposite direction. - Two things occurred to me in relation to that one is, it's too bad that we don't as part of training do some like role reversing things, and sit in the position of a client. And also as a therapist trying to figure out like how to handle situations like that. What kinds of questions? You know, what I like to ask if I was having a therapist I haven't really thought that much about that. The other thing that occurs to me is, I wonder if maybe part of the answer to this question clients could ask therapists couldn't come through. If there was a development, openness and community among people outside of therapy to talk about their experiences to talk about the reputation different therapist have I think this is something that's becoming a little bit more acceptable for people to talk openly. And honestly, with friends about what kind of problems you're having what kind of experiences they're having which I can see doing two things. One thing is it might help some people decide what they really need is a good friend to talk to. And they don't need to go to a therapist which I think is often therapeutic in itself, you know to make that decision. But also in my pickup on, you know a good friend of mine had a great experience of so and so and this is why that might be a very good source of data and answer and give better information on if you made the appointment and tried in, you know in five minutes to ask direct questions to get at what is in essence, a kind of behavior that therapists probably aren't aware of. You know, somebody asked me what my biases are the problems is that what they're really going to want to know are the things I don't know, right. - We're coming to the end of our program. I think that one of the things that I've seen in women's resource and career planning center is people doing just this what you're saying, like they come to our office thinking that we will have heard of other women who have had successful experiences with certain counselors and asking for a referral to someone who might be comfortable with some of the ideas of the women's movement that are very important to them right now. And they want to explore in counseling with some of the problems they're having and it sort of grapevine does develop a, might be more fair in terms of what you say rather than just a capsulized moment in terms of housing that's been treated because certainly good counts. As you were saying earlier, there's some there's some good counseling techniques which might rise above this in some cases, a person may, may respond to something that they feel very personally about what masculine feminists, but they can be accepting of other kinds of actions on behalf of other people that they're not so personally related to perhaps. So I think that might begin to develop I know women centers around the country are developing lists of doctors, of lawyers to help in divorce cases and therapists and all kinds of professional services for a women with ideas. Other women might feel more comfortable. Well, I want to thank Dr. Diane Kelly, Sylvia Hollowell and Doug Wit for being with us this evening and discussing the problems of women in the mental health fields and women seeking the services of those in the mental health field. Next week, our program will be on our bodies, ourselves, the attempt of women to learn more about their bodies and more about the medical services that they can be sitting at this time. I invite you again to stop by the women's resource and career planning center in 222 strong hall and to explore some of the resources that we have there and talk with any of the staff about some of your ideas, career aspirations goals, returning to school after an absence or anything else that is on your mind. So thank you for joining us for a feminist perspective and we hope you'll tune in again, next week.