- Good evening, welcome to A Feminist Perspective. I'm Emily Taylor, my guests tonight are Polly Pettit, Kathy Hoggard and Casey Eike. You three people have a number of things in common One of them in our particular interest tonight, of course is the meeting or the workshop that you attended in Kansas City, this past Friday on the trauma of rape: techniques in counseling with the victim. But I understand you also have something else in common, that you're members of a rape victim counseling group in Lawrence. Is that correct? - That's right - That's correct. - Could you tell us a little bit about how that group got started and whether there has been a need for your services? - The group was started in the fall of 1972 by a woman student who had been attacked on campus and decided that we needed a peer counseling group for women who were raped or attacked. And she found out police procedure, hospital procedure, court procedure, and located counselors in Lawrence who would be able to help rape victims. And the way we operate is that if a woman is raped or attacked and wants a rape victim counselor to go with her and be with her through the procedure, she calls either the information center or headquarters and someone there will contact a rape victim counselor who will either call the woman or meet her immediately. Then we can tell the woman just what she's in for: what kind of police procedure to expect, how the police operate here, what kinds of things will happen to her at the hospital. We can let her know that she doesn't have to press charges right away. She can simply report the crime and then decide later whether or not to press charges. Most women don't really know what will happen to them and we can be there to let her know what will happen and provide some kind of moral support for her through the process. - There are seven rape victim counselors right now and as Kathy said, we're on call 24 hours a day to help any woman who feels that she needs the support. - Right. And we emphasize that we are not professional counselors. We are merely a peer support group who have taken it upon themselves to learn the different procedures to be able to help in this, in this way. - Does your, your group include women of various ages or is there a common age group that's involved here? You speak of peer counselors and everyone talks about peers, but what if we had a, say a 70 year old woman who was attacked? You'd still serve her if she wanted to do, do you have any older women in this group? - No, I think the oldest woman in the group is 26 or 27 and then the youngest is about 20 or 21. - So it's pretty much in, in the twenties. - Mhm. - Have you had any experience with older women who've been attacked? Or has it been mostly young women? - It's been mostly women, young women up to now. - I have talked with a couple of older women who have been attacked before, say several years before or in their childhood and have, have talked with them about that experience. But I don't think any one of us has responded to an immediate situation where it's been a woman older. - I would suspect that the term peer is probably not too accurate depending on how you define peer but rather that you're providing a supportive service, regardless of whether you're providing it for people who are your peers in age group or not. Although if you had a middle-aged or older woman who was interested and who had had such an experience herself, I, I take it you would not be averse to adding them to your group, would you? - Well, certainly not. We haven't really thought about how would we go about adding people to our group. It's pretty important that the group remains small, I believe, because it's very important that people in the police and people at the hospital know who we are and feel that they have a personal relationship with us and that they can trust each of us as individuals. If a rape victim counselor comes in on a case that is unfamiliar to the officers in the case, she won't be able to do as much as she might do otherwise. So, though it might help in some ways to expand our group and have women of all ages, right now we're keeping it small, so that we can keep better in touch with the police and with the hospital personnel. - And we have also made contacts with the various professional agencies in town so that if we did, we know our limitations, and if we do feel that a woman needs further help and more professional help, that we can get her in touch with, with a woman who could do some professional counseling, too. - Now, this workshop was held in Kansas City at the, sponsored by the Wyandot Mental Health Centre and the Human Relations Committee of Kansas City, Kansas. That's a pretty large place. And the situation would be, I presume not so much different. Would you say that the, that the provision of rape victim counseling is becoming a common one throughout the country? Do you have any evidence of its, the spread of this idea? - It certainly seems to becoming more utilized across the country. Kansas City is so big that several different hospitals in particular are taking this upon themselves rather than just having a very large community effort in this direction. But at the last part of the, the conference, people divided up into their particular counties and talked about how they could implement something like a rape victim counseling service, where it would be more localized and it wouldn't just be so enormous all over the Kansas city area. But Lawrence does have that advantage, I think, of being small enough that we can be familiar with all of the law enforcement agencies and the county attorney, and the hospitals right here. - Is this something you would recommend to any community? - Certainly we would because we know from our own experience that some women who would have been reluctant to report the crime to the police, have gotten in touch with us and then because we agreed to help them out and because we could tell them that the police were not as harsh here as the media makes them look, because we were able to bridge the gap for them they contacted the police, reported the crime and now there is a chance that their attacker will be caught. So I think that any time you can do something like this it's a worthwhile project. And I certainly hope that more communities will undertake this. - Especially in light of the fact that is is a universal phenomenon, a universal problem - Absolutely. - Throughout our entire country. Can I make the assumption that it's not necessary for us to take time this evening to prove that there is a problem which needs to be dealt with? - You certainly don't have to prove it to us, we know. - And I would also think that the Whistlestop project in the community would have brought to light the problem. - Now, of course our radio audience includes a great deal more than Lawrence, Kansas. It's a very strong station. I'm wondering about the people in the 500 mile radius or whatever this station covers, of whether or not you know of things that are being done in other places, that people who are interested might want to check on. - Well, there is a group in Wichita that's trying to get a rape victim counseling group started. But that's the only one that I know of. - Well and then Topeka, also. - Oh, in Topeka? - A group in Topeka. And the reason, I guess, that we know of these, all these groups is because they generally have written to us requesting that we come and help them start their program and give them whatever assistance they need. - There's a group in Manhattan, too. Whether you've been contacted but, I've been contacted by them. I'll get you in touch with them, but- - I think that, that people need to realize that even if there's not a great deal of publicity about this kind of problem in their community, the problem probably exists anyway. And the reason that you hear about it in places like Lawrence is that the climate of opinion does not squelch talk of things like this. And we are trying to do something about the problem, so it seems like we have more of a problem, but we really don't. We're just trying to do something about it. And if, if the communities would start acting in this way, they might discover that they have a greater problem than they think. - I'm quite sure that has been the discovery everywhere. Would you agree that, that attacks on women and particularly rape, was treated much the way cancer and tuberculosis once was? Of "Hide it if you can?" - Mhm. - That seems to be the case. - If women in the community think that they're going to be branded as guilty just because they are attacked or raped, they're not going to report the crime. And this exists all over the country now. And unless you really open things up about it, unless you let women know that they're not going to be treated as criminals because they've been attacked, then you're not going to have them report the crime and you're never going to know what's going on. - And you're never going to alleviate the problem which does exist by, you know, convicting or, or whatever, finding the attackers. - There has been, of course, a tremendous concern about this problem that has come to light through the discussions of, of people who are, who are concerned with the kinds of things that the Women's Movement is all about. It would seem to me, and I'd like your reaction to this, that this as much as anything, the concerns of groups, feminist groups, has brought this whole problem into a focus that it never had before. - Certainly. Women just have a greater interest in solving this problem than men do because it's primarily aimed at them. If, if men were more often the victims of rape then they might've taken action long, long ago but women have primarily been the targets. And so therefore we're more interested and we've acted to do something about it. - I think another thing that seems to have done a little bit of consciousness-raising is the media. And on television in the last year there've been at least two made-for-television movies about the subject of rape and they have been pretty harsh presentations. It's made the woman appear more than just a victim of the crime of rape. She has been portrayed as also having to be the defendant in her case and has been treated very harshly by the police and by the hospitals. And probably feminists are more apt to act when they see this kind of presentation, act to try and correct that in their particular community. But I think that the media has done a lot to present the problem. In some cases, that's a, that's a fair portrayal, in Lawrence it doesn't happen to be the case. - It seemed to me that the recent television programs about which you're speaking, are a response to the awareness of feminist groups, rather than the other way around. - That could be. I hope so. - Like everything else like that, one reacts to the other. It's never a simple cause and effect. - Yeah, in every case it's, it's helpful. There were many people, like police, courts, the hospitals who immediately began the defense: "That's not what we do." And I think this is very good because this indicates that, you know, whether they were acting that way or not, their attention is now called very dramatically to the problem and so a serious discussion begins. And I think when a serious discussion of this problem begins it's pretty obvious that the, the victim as the defendant in the situation is a hundred percent wrong. The introductory part to, to the program presented in Kansas City on the trauma of rape, says that the victim of rape experiences, the victim of rape experiences emotional and psychological needs which are largely unmapped by the major establishments responsible for serving her: law enforcement, medical and legal. At present supportive services by trained personnel are also minimal in the Kansas City area. This workshop will provide the opportunity for counselors from many disciplines, to gain the information and skills necessary to aid victims of rape and to plan procedures for routine access to these victims. It also states that the workshop is open and encouraged for individuals who are in a position to come in contact with victims of rape. What was your experience there? Was this the kind of people who attended this workshop? How would you classify the people who were there? - I would classify them into three groups by profession. There were, first of all nurses there were social workers, primarily from hospitals, and there were psychologists from mental health facilities. - Any medical personnel there? Or law enforcement? - Oh, there were law enforcement personnel there, but as resource people, because see this was aimed at counseling the victim and the law enforcement people were there to let these counselors know what the police procedure was. They were not there as an audience. They were there as resource people. - What were your impressions of what the said procedure was in that particular locality? Had they come closer to what you've described earlier this evening about how people would be treated here by medical and legal and police? - Well, they're not as fortunate in Kansas City as we are here because they have so many more facilities and people to contact. They have two very fine people working with the problem in Jackson County: Asa Stein, who is the head of the sex offenses division of the police department there and Jalen Vould who works in the prosecuting attorney's office. Now, Asa is very understanding of the problem. He knows that there are many police on his force, detectives on his force, who don't believe women, who believe that 90% of the women are lying. But he's working in the right direction. And there were accounts of victims who had had Asa as a detective on their case and said that he was just great, so they're moving in the right direction. And then Jalen Vould, a woman, takes every rape case that comes out before the Jackson County prosecutor. And last year they had about 5% of their rape cases come to trial. This year, it's more like 80%. And that's due to the presence of her, and to her efforts in cooperation with Asa Stein. - And she's an attorney. - She is an attorney in the Jackson County prosecutor's office. Now a rape case is prosecuted, is a crime against the state and so it's prosecuted by the County and the County attorney. So the woman does not actually have to get a lawyer the County attorney, or his representative, her representative, acts as the attorney for the victim in the case. They, okay, people in Kansas City really have much more of a problem than we do here because see, Jackson County is just one of four counties in the Kansas city area. So things are good in Jackson County but that leaves three other counties where they don't have an Asa Stein or a Jalen Vould. So they really got much more of a problem than we do. - And also since Kansas City... and there are so many different law enforcement officers even if Asa himself, personally, is very concerned and understanding, he cannot be responsible for every policeman on the beat who may handle a rape case and certainly they are going to have some cases where the woman has a very bad experience with a police officer who is not understanding of her problem. - But let's talk about that for a moment. We've got hospital procedures and police procedures and court procedures, all of which were discussed at this conference. Now suppose there were a woman of the kind that you have just described, who has an experience, rather, such as you've just described, a bad experience. She's presumably taken first to the hospital or goes first to the hospital or that's where she should go first. Is that correct? - Mhm. - Now, suppose that she has a bad experience at that hospital. What can she do? - Well right now, because there isn't really anything set up there, probably the best thing for her to do would be to complain to hospital officials because there isn't one central place to complain. - This would be one great advantage, of course, of their establishing a rape victim counselor system, wouldn't it? Someone to support her and saying "You don't have to put up with this." - And hopefully if we were there at the time, we would be able to prevent whatever insensitivities take place. - And many times the police and the hospital personnel and the court people, they're not intentionally severe on the woman, but they simply have not been trained how to treat her in a way that's supportive. And anytime you set up a rape victim counseling group, it is an educational experience for everybody involved. And it gives people, gives the professional people who encounter the woman, an opportunity to talk to counselors and gives the opportunity for counselors to say, "Well, now you do this and this and this is very detrimental to the woman. It makes her a less willing, she's not going to want to cooperate with you, she's not going to answer your questions as well and if you simply acted in another way, then she might be better in this instance". So. - In the, in the slide-on-slide program depicting police, hospital and court procedures, did this depict good procedures, bad procedures, or what? - Well, generally they, they don't really have established a set, new kind of procedure such as we're trying to do in Lawrence. So they generally just told what kinds of things needed to happen, such as the examination for internal injuries, the modal sperm test, test for BD and, and giving her the information that if she would perhaps become pregnant, or if she did contract venereal disease what she could do, these kinds of things they covered. But it wasn't a set program aimed direct, you know. - Not a model procedure or a, or a depiction of the worst things that could happen. - Right. - Now, let's look specifically at the hospital procedures first, since this is the first place that a woman who's attacked should go. What did Sally Gill from St. Luke's School of Nursing have to say about hospital procedures? - Generally, she just outlined the things that I just mentioned, that these things should take place. The modal sperm count is a very important aspect of the procedure, because this is one of the primary evidences that women do have if they do decide to prosecute. So it's very important that that take place. And of course, the BD test, you know, for the woman's own peace of mind, you know, and health, and - Also she was setting up a program at St. Luke's to sensitize everyone who comes in contact with the victim to the victim's needs. She wanted to make sure that everyone, from the doctor who examines her, to the receptionist who takes down her vital statistics, to the lab technician, who sees her, she wants to make sure that every one of these people is sensitive to the woman and doesn't say things that would upset her or make her feel bad. - She's also very concerned because at, at least at St Luke's and probably at General Hospital also, she mentioned that many times there's a three to four hour wait in the waiting room to, to get in, to see a physician. And of course, for one thing, this is very, very bad for the victim involved because she, she probably has not and should not have cleaned up or, or washed her hands or done anything like this and it's just very uncomfortable and traumatic. And also because this modal sperm count needs to be taken as soon as, as possible because sperm does degenerate very quickly, after I believe an hour. - Is this the, the usual delay in a, we're talking about an emergency room? - This is what they expect in Kansas City. - Is there a greater delay for rape victims than for other kinds of... - I would imagine if a person went to the emergency room and was bleeding profusely, that they would take them. But because a rape victim perhaps is not as outwardly hurt or injured... - Because a rape victim is not about to die they are given low priority. But what Sally Gill wanted to do was let people know that a rape victim does need immediate attention. She might have to wait, a rape victim might have to wait four hours for a procedure that would only take 10 minutes. So. - Did Sally Gill, and I think I'll ask you this about each one of these speakers, did she say how she became sensitized to this issue? - No she didn't. - Did the next speaker, on the police procedures that you've already referred to, Detective Asa Stein, talk about his sensitization? - I don't remember any of them talking about how they became interested in this problem? - That would be very interesting to know, wouldn't it? Because it would help to, to give everyone techniques. It could be used to further sensitize additional numbers of people because you're right, in a large hospital or a large police force there are bound to be a variety of kinds of responses. - But there are always a lot of myths surrounding the whole subject. There has been for so many years when we couldn't even talk about it on the radio or among each other, you know, with each other. But, so I think just letting people know the facts and the statistics, that Asa Stein believes that, that perhaps there were 200, sorry 2000 rapes in Kansas City last year, because they only have 344 reported in 1973. But, because of these myths and the fears that surround the whole area, he believes there probably were around 2000. - That's interesting. I've sometimes wondered about the numbers. We all know that by no means everyone who is raped reports it. On the other hand with the, with the amount of sensitization that's going on, would it seem reasonable to you people that they, that a larger percentage are now being reported than previously? - I think that that's probably the case. In our experience dealing here in Lawrence, we've had a couple of occasions to point out to the woman, the advantages of talking to the police and reporting the case and she eventually did so, whereas she most likely would not have had she not talked to a counselor. - Well, and I believe because we are talking about the problem and we're not hiding it and we're not sweeping it under the carpet sort of thing, that more women will come forth and report those things. And they really need to, not only because of the, you know, finding the attacker, the assailants, but also for her own mental health. I think it's very important that women do something positive about this very negative kind of experience and not internalize it like so many women I believe used to do and many women probably now are doing. - Yes, and I'm recalling a case of a young woman, who, whom I knew, who had had an unfortunate experience with, it was not rape, it was just an exposure case but the reason that her parents were unwilling to, to file suit in this case was that she had been raped when she was five years old by a friend of the family and the, the trauma had lasted all those years. She was now about 20 at the time when I met her, so 15 years before, she had had an experience which the family had tried to deal with through psychological methods, but it was still haunting her. The programs on the psychological impact on the victim I suspect you've talked a little bit about. But we haven't talked about the false claims of rape and this is of course a potential problem. What did they have to say about that? I see that the speaker here was Carolyn Swaiton from Wyandot Mental Health Center, and, well there were several people involved with, with this program. - Well the false claims of rape, Asa Stein said that it appeared that about 20% of the rape cases reported, 10% were false, false claims of rape. And the reason that this many were false were, not, not always just because the woman was lying but in case two teenagers were discovered by someone's mother and the mother insisted, "well my daughter must have been raped," or a married man and woman who are carrying on an extramarital affair and discovered and so rape is just an easier thing to, to charge. - In times past, it was, it had been very difficult or almost impossible to get an abortion, except in the case of rape or incest, this may be why some women claimed rape, so that they could get a much-needed abortion. Welfare payments are denied if a woman becomes pregnant. - Except in cases of rape. - Right. And so some women, they claim rape to, so they can still support their family. - So it's really less of a question of someone just becoming angry and trying to make a victim of a person. - Right. She listed about 20 different reasons, which, many of which I had not even thought of. I thought they were very interesting. - But that's still a very small proportion they're talking about. In other words, their evidence says that 9 out of 10 reported rapes, actually did, did happen. I suppose in determining whether or not it's a false claim that this becomes an extremely sensitive issue to people like you who are involved with rape victim counseling, doesn't it? - It certainly does because we are, we come in as the advocate for the woman. And so we have a tendency to believe her. We have to, and it becomes a very difficult decision for us when we, we might begin to believe that maybe she wasn't telling us the truth. But we still have to be the advocate for the woman. - Is this about the proportion that you've run across in your personal experiences, that 9 out of 10 of them are real? - We have such a small sample that we couldn't really say. - Well, there are many other interesting aspects of this workshop that we should discuss and undoubtedly will be discussing additionally on A Feminist Perspective. We have talked tonight about the trauma of rape: techniques in counseling the victim, particularly in connection with the workshop sponsored by the Wyndot Mental Health Center and the Human Relations Committee of Kansas City, Kansas. Our guests have been Polly Pettit, Kathy Hoggard and Casey Eike, all of whom belong to a group here of rape victim counselors. And I appreciate you listening tonight and hope you'll join us again next Monday night at 7:30 for A Feminist Perspective.