- Speak publicly on matters of concern to them about the movement which is remaking the shape and substance of men's and women's lives throughout the world. Our format consists first of discussion by guest panelists on a particular topic of interest to them. During the last 15 minutes of the program there's an opportunity for members of the radio audience to call with questions or comment. Our number is 8644530. We would very much welcome any question or comment that you'd care to make. These programs are sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, that's located in the Dean of Women's Office in Strong Hall. We invite you to call our office at any time with questions or comments. You have any kind of a problem that you'd like to discuss with someone either anonymously or by giving your name, we would be happy to discuss it with you. Better yet, we invite you to come in person. We have organized our office in such a way that the professional staff member is always available to talk with anyone who cares just to drop in. And of course we take appointments also. Our topic tonight is The Black Woman; Double Jeopardy. And our guests this evening are Aileen Gary, Assistant Director of Supportive Educational Services and Gloria Douglas Assistant to the Dean of Women at the University of Kansas. Aileen, let's start by having you tell us what are Supportive Educational Services?

- Well Supportive Educational Services is a program that was set up in 1969 through the Black Student Union at the University of Kansas. And it was a demand first of all for greater minority representation at the university and also a program for making sure that once the students got here, they were retained. The students knew through experience that many minority students who came to the university, who didn't even come to university were not prepared to deal with the academic schedule for the university. And so far, either inadequate counseling during their high school careers or either inadequate academic preparation to their high school career. So what we attempt to do is to retain students once they get here, both through academic help such as tutoring and also counseling of any problems that the students might have.

- And what proportion of men and women are you working with?

- I would imagine it's about a 60%, 60, 40 in favor of women. There are about 60% women and 40% men in the program.

- Why is that?

- Well, I think it's probably because due to history the black woman has generally had more avenues open to her and has been encouraged more to go on and get an education than most black men have. And I think that that's an outgrowth. And I think in many of the programs you see across the nation, such as ours you probably find the same thing is true.

- Now, Gloria, haven't you, has part of your work done some recruiting or counseling of high school seniors?

- Yes, there are people from the Urban Affairs Office and the Admissions Office, Marshall Jackson and myself who do go out and actively recruit students from the various high schools here in the Kansas Missouri area. And we've found that it's true that, I would say that it's true that we do talk to more women students, high school students than men. And there's usually more of an interest on the part of a lot of the young women in the high schools in this area.

- Yeah, I think again, I think that's because of the history of black people in general, more so than just an interest in them. It's been a kind of historical thing that's been kind of ingrained in us all along. So I think that's kind of what's happened.

- So it requires a special type of counseling to help the young men see themselves and see colleges as a real possibility for them.

- Well, what happens is we don't actually, Marshall generally does the general recruiting of students since so far as he goes to present the program per se. And I don't think we use any specific type of recruiting approach for men or for women, it's kind of a general approach. But what happened to the outcome is that generally there are more women than men who seem interested in the program.

- It's interesting that among whites it's just the opposite. Are always have a higher percentage of white men have attended college than white women. And it's still a lot, pretty much the 60, 40, the other way. When were you first aware of the women's movement? Either of you.

- Well, I think, I really don't think I can say when I became really aware of the movement per se, but I can say that I felt discriminated against as a woman for the first time when I actually realized it, was when I started working for RCA in New York and there were two, they hire a certain amount of college students every year. And I found out that there was a guy that was working, doing the same thing that I was doing, and he was making considerably more money than I was for that summer. And that told me a little bit about exactly what was going on and I really began to realize that women were being discriminated against as far as jobs-

- Was he a white man or a black man?

- He was black.

- So you knew that it wasn't that, it had to be.

- I think that I kind of have to agree with Gloria. I think one of the reasons is that my priorities, when we talk about double jeopardy, we talk about black and women. And I think one of my priority has and still remains the black aspect of it. And so I wasn't concentrating so much on the women aspect of it but I have run up against it. And I think the first time that I really saw it, was one summer when I was still in high school and got a job in a factory and it was the factory making electrical equipment. And every woman, every person who work on the line was a woman who had to meet the quotas. We had to operate the press machines were women. And all the supervisors were men. Even got down to the carrying of 25 pound boxes that I had to transport from one place to another. And I didn't mind that because I don't mind physical work, but it just kind of struck me with kind of vibe that all the men were supervisors and all the women did the work in the factory.

- And was, did either of you do anything at that moment? I mean, did you interject or did you raise any questions about it or just think about it?

- Well, I didn't object to the people that I was hired by. But I did talk about it quite a bit to the black guy that was working in the same job and making more money. And I let my feelings be known to him. Now that didn't do anything to raise my salary, but it did something for me.

- What was it then? Do you think that was right and proper or-

- Well, he just didn't really have too much to say about it at all, he was making the higher salary, so I don't think he felt that he needed to get too uptight about it. He didn't seem to have any feelings about it, one way or the other.

- What'd you do?

- I didn't, well, I only worked in the factory for a week 'cause I didn't know I was going to be temporary help until they laid me off, which is another thing because they felt they had no conscience about hiring people for a week to raise the production and then laying them off. And since all the people that they hired were women, that said something else. But no, again, I think that, because my priorities lie elsewhere that I'd expressed this aspect maybe to my friends and to my family, but it didn't really go any further than that.

- Well, how about the movement for black identity? When did you become aware of that?

- Very early in my life. I think that the thing is, is you personally I have, even though there are only two things in the world, men and women, personally I kind of feel like I am black first because as far as oppression goes, I feel like I am more oppressed as a black person, than as a woman, so in determining my priorities, I have to say that the black comes first, because there is more oppression against black people, than there are against women. Because when you say women, you have to say white women and black women. And the oppression is not as great for white women as it is for black people as a whole. So I have to place my priorities where I feel that they're most needed.

- Could you, you said very early in life, could you be more specific or like before you went to school or afterwards, or?

- No, it was in grade school I imagined, well, not really, because I never thought about it consciously until later. But I guess the first discrimination that I felt personally, or was aware of, occurred during grade school, in a personal encounter with another student. But I think that my black consciousness came directly from my family and living situation. And so, but just to become aware enough of it to actually discuss it, probably didn't come until later.

- How about you, do you recall when you first noticed?

- The town that I come from is about, I would say it's primarily a white community. And although the community at the time when I was living there, they didn't really feel like they had any problems. But in grade school, when you're in a minority as a black child, you feel certain things, because I was finding that I wasn't having the same opportunities let's say as the white children were in that school. And even though the school was integrated, we still had like Black Brownie Troops and White Brownie Troops and that meant, that meant something to me at that time, because I would have to go all the way across town to be a part of a brownie troop, because that was where the-

- What reason was given to you for that? Any, or did you just, did you accept it at the time as kind of a natural thing or?

- Well, I kind of felt that something was wrong. But at that age, I just accepted it. My mother carded me over there-

- And she didn't say anything?

- No.

- 'Cause generally I find that they didn't mind though, even parents wise, because it's a thing where there's a difference between segregation and separation. And when you separate yourself as of your own free will, but when it's segregation, it's a forced kind of thing. So, as far as that goes I don't think most black people, or many black people do not have a problem with separation. They have the problem with segregation.

- No, separation, you define that as a decision you make yourself.

- Right.

- Do you want to talk a little bit more about that? 'Cause that might not be completely understandable to a lot of people, I just, I know that there are people who raise that question of why is it now that when so many blacks want to separate themselves except, white people usually refer to that as segregate themselves. Then why is it that they, or could also be interested in what's called integration?

- Well, I don't think that, the two I think are kind of, well it depends on what you mean by integration. If coming to a predominantly white school is integration, then you can call it that. But I think that we do not have the necessary tools, among our people to do the kinds of things that we need to do. Therefore we have to go where they are available. This happens to be mostly predominantly white institutions, to get the skills and the things necessary to get ourselves together. And so, if you wanna call that integration, it's kind of a spotty kind of an integration. An integration only when needed, but not necessarily by, again by choice, it's kind of not by choice again.

- Yeah, because like in Montclair for instance, the schools were totally integrated. But still when it came to social functions there wasn't that much mixing, like I said. The brownie troop, for example. And there wasn't too much hassle about it on the part of the blacks. They just felt that this is the way they wanted to do it. They didn't, I don't think they really thought in terms of, they had to do it that way, they preferred to do it that way because they felt like they could get more out of it, being together and working in groups such as-

- Kind of a social arrangement. But taking from the educational establishment or whatever you needed from that.

- 'Cause I think it's interesting to note that, most black schools are in the South. And I think the reason for that is, we had to build our own institutions because we could not, throughout the South, attend predominantly white institutions. So we set up our own institutions to do so. Whereas in the North, when there was the migration North, there were no, that's when the got started, and there was no, then you had to attend predominantly white institutions, because there were no black institutions in the North to fulfill your needs.

- Not on purpose at least, but depending upon what part of town you lived in. It could be a de facto situation of, an almost black school, as a matter of fact in a suburb of Cincinnati, where I once lived, there were two schools, that wasn't in the South, but there was a school which crossed the lines of-

- I went to Cincinnati and I kind of, neighbor South. I think that the Mason-Dixon line lie in the North of Cincinnati, I came to kind of a part of Kentucky, so I guess.

- Lockland, I believe.

- Yes.

- And then they changed to, changed this with a great deal of problems, connected with it, that was many years ago, long before grade issues arose. There's a, I like to come back to that and since a little later, approaching it from a slightly different way. But I do note that it's time that we would be happy to accept any questions or comments that anyone in radio audience would like to call in. And in the meantime, we'll keep talking, but don't let that interfere as you're picking up the phone and raising any question or making any comment that you would care to. You know of course that it's been widely quoted, that Shirley Chisholm has said that she faced more discrimination as a woman than she did as black. And also that a number of other people have said quite the contrary and said that the women's movement, isn't for black women. And you've said a little bit about what your experience has been. Would you wanna talk a little more generally about that, knowing that there are two sides, even among black women concerning it?

- Well, I kind of think that, again, it's a matter of priorities and each person, of course as to determine their own priorities. And from my perspective like I said before, that in terms of oppression I will agree that all women are oppressed. But in terms of oppression, I would have to say that black people are oppressed more so than just black women. And so I don't have any problems with, well, I may have a problem in terms of what I feel like the particular women ought to be doing but that's their thing and so that's what they determined is their priorities, whereas mine lie elsewhere.

- But does it bother you or anything if someone's priorities, if some black women's priorities-

- Well, the only reason that it might bother me is because I feel at this particular time that black people can't afford to get their priorities mixed up. And that's my own personal point of view. But there's nothing that I can really do about it, except maybe to try and convince them otherwise. And I don't know Shirley personally, so I don't imagine that I'll have any chance in the near future but-

- You might.

- Well, I kind of agree with you Aileen as far as the priority thing, I feel that for myself, my priorities do lie more with trying to stop or end oppression as far as the black people in general are concerned. I do feel that women are oppressed also. And since I've been working in the Dean of Women's Office, I've come to realize that even more. I feel that because my priorities are where they are, that I will work actively to continue to stop oppression as far as black people are concerned. But anything that comes up as far as a women's issue that I, I'll try to do something about that too.

- I think a very important point for me is I don't believe that black women can be liberated until black people are liberated. And so if you look at, a person can liberate himself perhaps, but only to the extent the society allows him to. So, one person may be liberated, but black people are not liberated. And so you really can't say that we will ever be free until black people as a whole are free. And I think that black women will remain oppressed as long as black people are oppressed. I don't think there's any getting around that.

- I suppose it might be said, it certainly has been by various people that same statement might be made by anyone who is not really in the mainstream of American society. No matter what their minority status is. Whether it's being a woman, or a black or a Chicano or what have you. That probably we're not going to have a really humane society until everyone is free to become whatever he or she wishes to become. Do you know what rationale, somebody likes Shirley Chisholm would give for making a statement like that? I ask that because obviously she's not here to express her opinion. And I think it's an opinion worth expressing.

- I would imagine that it's probably a result of her upbringing and her experiences. And that's the only way in which people determine their priorities on things. And so, I would probably attribute it to that. If she was always made to feel like she was a person, black, white or what have you, and she's just human, which is rationale some people use, then she could quite possibly come up with that-

- I also feel that, because of the fact that she has decided to enter politics-

- That has a lot to do-

- That has a lot to do with it too. In her autobiography, she talks about this quite a bit. And I think that women that are in politics are discriminated against greatly. And I think that she feels this more than anything else, because this is where her priorities lie, within the political realm of things.

- And when you are a politician, man or woman, you have to appeal to a larger group as possible also. And so I imagine that, if you have to be broad in that sense that you probably would take kind of a different approach than the person on the street would.

- I believe and I've also heard her say, that as one aspect of this, some years ago it became a pretty unpopular thing to be openly and verbally discriminatory toward blacks. But it is still quite acceptable to make discriminatory comments about women, showing up very deeply seated the problem actually is.

- I think maybe one, another reason for that is that as, generally things only come to fore as people rebel, and as black people rebel, are we gonna break into-

- Do we have a call? Hello.

- I'd like to ask Aileen and Gloria a question. When they were talking about oppression and the black people who were oppressed more were the women. Were they talking basically about attitude or about legal and economic oppression?

- Did you hear the question?

- Well, I tend to believe that most depression stems from economics and attitude or attribute to both, or attribute, right, to that and so I think that economic, I would have to say economically and all of the other things kind of result from that and that would be my intuition.

- I would feel also that it would be, basically an economic type of thing. I think that because of where black people are, as far as a totally dynamic structure exist in the United States, I think that that has a lot to do with attitudes. I think the two things coincide and I think that white women as far as the economic structure goes, are better off than blacks, men and women. Not in all cases, but in a lot.

- Well, as a matter of fact I believe that black men are a little head of black women, quite a few hundreds of dollars on an overall picture. It runs white man, black man, white women, black woman. Did you have any further comment or question?

- Well, that was basically the one I was thinking of, because black men do make on the average more than white women and it's hard to measure, I suppose, the white women who aren't working anymore, their economic statuses, thank you.

- Well, thank you for calling. It is a good question. Legally, of course you got nailed out just as we did, of the constitution until the present one a possibility, and yet again, or until the 19th amendment, where black women got the right to vote at the same time white women did.

- Well, again I think that maybe one of the problems that I have with statistics is that, when I talk about black people, I don't limit it to the United States. Of course, this is the situation that I live in. But I do not at all limit it to the United States. And so, if you want to really get down to brass tacks, so when I say black people, I mean, black people worldwide and not just those in the United States who have to have it economically maybe a lot better.

- I think what I was referring, there's another call.

- Yes there's another call. Hello.

- Hello.

- Hello.

- I just like to ask a question. What's black women's view on women's liberation?

- Pardon.

- I'd like to ask black women's view of women's liberation.

- A black woman's view of women's liberation.

- That's what we've been talking about. Really, for the last half hour. You're calling what we call the women's movement I presume is what you call women's liberation. Did you want to comment on that?

- Well, I think that we've kind of gone over, well, no, I really haven't I guess. What I feel is that, I do not have time right now to deal with the women's movement personally. I feel that I may in future time reap a lot of the benefits of it. But at this time that I really cannot participate in an active way because that's not where my priorities are.

- You have anything to comment?

- Well, I feel basically the same way that I'm not really actively participating in the movement right now. Basically because my priorities lie in a different place. And that is within the black movement.

- Well, I'd like to know, when is-

- Could you speak a little bit louder please?

- What is the black student's priority at this point?

- What is the black's priority?

- liberation. Liberation is stemming I guess again when we talked about economic and attitude. I don't think that the attitude will change until the economic situations change. And so the point right now is black people's liberation in order to determine their own destiny and control their own life. Just as would be the same for women. But they're dealing on a different level or on a different plane in the black movement.

- I just have one more question . Do you see any kinds of black recession or repression, recently moving towards the 69 or 70, like that do you white people backing up?

- Backing up-

- On their promises.

- Yes, I think you don't understand the question he's asking. Do you see any kind of really a regression from the interest in the position that black had got.

- Well, no, I don't see a regression because if you, I think if you analyze it correctly or analyze in a certain way, I'll say it's about the same place they haven been, it's just that you respond in different ways depending on the situation you're presented with, for instance riot. Riots occur, they respond in a very, very generous, generally loose a dollar's way. That's when you don't have riots, then they take back the money. And so all we kind of use is stop gap measures and they respond in the way that's best for them at the time.

- With a distance of a go ahead for black people to say, "Well, the only reason why we gonna get scholarships is if we burned down the place."

- You're say that? I don't understand the question, is this situation likely to lead then to black people saying that the only way you can get attention is by some dramatic act like burning down the place.

- I think that many black people do feel that way. But I couldn't say exactly how all of them feel but I think that many people feel that way, very definitely.

- You have any other comments or questions?

- No, this is just made up.

- Thank you for calling. I don't feel quite that pessimistic about it. I think that we become, as the whole society becomes more and more aware it is a due and they become aware of a lot of things they weren't aware of before. And so maybe it's like discovering a new disease. Right, our time is up. We certainly appreciate your listening and hope that you'll joining us again next Monday night at seven o'clock for continuation of our series.