- Good evening and welcome to a "Feminist Perspective." I am Janet Sears, Assistant Dean of Women at the University of Kansas, and I will be moderating tonight's program on "Male Awareness." "The Feminist Perspective" is brought to you by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, located in the Dean of Women's office 222 Strong Hall. And this center, we have resources available for women whatever your concern may be. There is human sexuality, counseling and information a library of over 400 volumes on the Women's Movement available for checkout, other articles, catalog available for research and 10 women counselors available to help you whenever your problems or concerns may be. So we invite you to call, come by or write to our office. The office of the Dean of Women 222 Strong Hall. This week at KU is the Spring Festival of the Arts. And last night, Judy Chicago, a feminist artist spoke here at KU as part of the Festival of the Arts week. During this week, she has a display in the Union gallery. So we invite you to stop by and see this display, of works by feminist artists, Judy Chicago. This evening we are going to, we are breaking a little bit of our tradition and we've invited three men to come and be on a "Feminist Perspective." And we're going to talk on "Male Awareness" and what are some of the things that are going on with men as women explore their roles and images and attempt to expand their humanness. So with us this evening, we have Frank Bintavingo. Frank has an assistant Dean of men here at KU. He is also working on a degree in Counseling Psychology. Frank has been married for six years and is presently in the process of getting a divorce. And he is a member of a group of men who are discussing male roles. One of our other guests this evening is Barbara Deaton. Barbara is a student majoring in Urban Health. And for the past three months, he has been in a group of men discussing male roles and male consciousness. Our other guest is Phil Cleaver, a student at KU who is an aide at Hilltop Daycare Center, a resident assistant in Ellsworth Hall. And we'll be going to graduate school next year in social work. Well, we welcome the three of you to "A Feminist Perspective.". And I guess I just want to start off by saying that many feminists have written about that liberation and humanism will only come not only when women re-examine their roles and break out of the tradition stereotypes in which they have acted in the past, but men are going to have to change too. And I think the two have said the most about this are Gloria Steinem and Hyles Razie. Both have written extensively about the limitation in bonds of the male role as well as the female role. And that men have as much to gain from a liberation where we can all respond out of our abilities and interests and our human feelings rather than out of ways that we should respond because we're men or because we're women. So what kinds of limitations have have you the three of you found in the, what we'll call for this evening's discussion, the old male role. What kinds of things are limiting about it? What are some, what is it? What is that old male role that tells you what you should be? Phil, would you like to start by?

- [Phil] Well, first of all one of them restrictions is in relationships. I remember when I was in high school I was always afraid of the dating situation because I felt if the responsibility of the success or failure of the dating situation was upon me, I was the one that had to take the initiative. I was the one that had to ask the person out. And it wasn't always a real good feeling to have to do that. I had an interesting experience, which at the beginning made me very uncomfortable this year. A young lady asked me out and it's amazing the whole different approach that you take on when you, when you think about someone asking you out as opposed to you asking them out. It really made me feel a lot, a lot freer to enjoy the date and a lot more, I guess, less responsible, a lot less a lot less restrictions on on how I acted and how I responded, because well she had initiated the date.

- [Janet] Do you think this is part of, I think to to ask someone out because I've recently done that myself. If it takes them, it's a, risk-taking, you know you have to put yourself out to be rejected and it's very it makes you very vulnerable. So I think that's part of kind of an aggression that men are supposed to be able to do. And the women don't have to do traditionally in our society. What are some other kinds of things?

- That, that really brings up a whole another area in where I really feel that men are oppressed in that men are expected to be aggressive. They're expected to be competitive. You can see that in well, in any of the sports fields it's always a male dominated thing and aggression, you know men are supposed to go off to war. They're supposed to fight for their country and protect their wives and their daughters back home you know, keeping the home fires burning. I, I feel that that is one of the, well, one of the many restraining forces that our society really does put upon men in the terms of aggression and competition.

- And often this aggression or competition is a basis of, or gets in the way I should say of my relationship with other men. That often the basis of a relationship or a discussion is talking about sports or politics or about women.

- Kind of a one-upsmanship.

- Right.

- The one thing I've noticed Phil is that in selecting careers, there's an, there's an awful lot of that competitiveness and that aggression that has to go into the type of career a male selects. I know in my own case, being as old as I am and and still being in school and not actually taken on a full-time career, there's a tremendous amount of peer pressure for selecting a career and getting involved in it immediately, you know, and and having some tangible long range goals that you can say this is a job I'm going to work at for 30 years. And I'm going to earn a living for my family and I'm going to be successful at it. And, and it's really restricting because at the time when that, when that first started to become very apparent to me, I wasn't ready. I hadn't found enough of what I wanted to do that would make me happy.

- That's, that's one thing that's always really scared me. I know through junior high school and high school all the guidance things that were going on, like you'd go down to your guidance conference or whatever. And they say, now here's a few careers which one of these do you like? And you're supposed to already start to be thinking about what kind of careers you want to go into. And I don't know, I just never felt that I was ready to make an adequate decision for myself as to what kind of thing I wanted to do to earn enough money to support a wife and family. In other words, you know, like they were at that point already, they were pushing onto me that I was going to have to have a career to support myself, my wife and my, my little children. And, you know, that's well, that really bothered me.

- Yeah. Barbara I've found in my selection or my decision to go to graduate school I really, it was a conflict because I knew I felt part of the pressure of, I need job security. I knew I'd have more of it, a more secure kind of job situation with a master's degree in Social Work. And I realized that the same time, a lot of that was a male kind of thing that had been taught to me.

- When I came back to graduate school I left a job and I remember it was almost it was almost as if I had for a short period of time lost my mind and my relatives and my friends. I had a fairly good job. I had a lot of future to it, fairly good pay. And I had opt to go back to school and choose a career which perhaps wouldn't pay me as much as I was making after two years of graduate school, as I as I was making at that time. And it was just sort of a ridiculous decision because here you were in job security bill, you know, why would you why would you take the risk of leaving that job going to graduate school for a year or two years? And the prospects of getting that kind of job paying as much just weren't really there. So it really was restricted for me, you know that kind of pressure. They were so like, don't do it. It's ridiculous. And it's just not fair.

- What do you think that some of the anger that that men feel towards women? I know this has been expressed towards me is that I can get in and out of a job as I choose because I'll always have someone supporting me which is not the case right now, certainly but that you don't have that freedom or you haven't felt that you've had the freedom because you have to provide for all these other people to to change jobs in the middle of your life, to, you know to work at something for a while and decide to do something else you want to pursue. That that breadwinner role would be very heavy.

- At the time I decided to go to graduate school, I had a wife and a son and that even complicated the problem. I mean, it's just, as you said, you know people just said, well, what what's your wife going to do? And my wife was a college graduate and had her in very good money and could possibly earn very good money at Lawrence we thought. And, but that was that was another one of those restrictions. And my wife would have been supporting me. And that would have been, I mean what could be worse not to support your wife and son but to have her support you and your son. So it was, yeah, it was really restricted.

- That really starts to bring up another area where men are really supposed to be the you know, have the strength, you know no emotions really as well with the family too. I think that's a thing that society kind of conditions into men that a man is the breadwinner. He goes out of the home every day and, and, you know comes back and he eats he's dinner and watches TV, and you know, punish the children when they have to be punished. So he never really gets the opportunity to know his children that well and he's supposed to be this strong kind of cohesive force behind the home situation. Now I think that that situation really binds the male in the society into roles that, you know he may not want to be in of, well, a man can never really show very much weakness or, you know ask for support.

- Well, he sort of in charge, then he had the home and the problems and the people that are dependent upon him. And I think, I think that says something about the way women have been that they've been willing to be dependent. You know, it takes two people to set up that kind of relationship. And certainly there are women who have not assumed their full adult responsibility, but then there are men who have needed to have people dependent upon them because that's a source of ego strength or that says, I'm a man.

- That's the, the, the terms that society defines masculinity on and that's how a boy growing up in society determines if he is masculine or not is by his competitiveness, his ability to domineer and be powerful if he's good on the football field or something like that. There aren't very many abstract kinds of ways to determine your sexuality or masculinity as a as an adolescent growing up. And so boys are identifying with, you know, football heroes and war heroes and, and not really getting a what I consider a healthy perspective on what it's like to be human.

- When you said that it was really funny Barbara because I got I just kind of went off for a second into a little fantasy. And I, I got thinking about the words you use to describe people. And I thought, suppose you said that you had a son who was sensitive and felt things very deeply and was a concerned person. I'm sure that immediately puts a picture in somebody's mind and probably not too positive of a picture. Whereas if you said that about a woman or a young lady of 14 or 17 year old young lady, that that's a whole another thing that's a very admirable quality for her to be sensitive and feeling. So there really are a lot of restrictions that go into group child-rearing practices.

- Well, these things that we've been talking about then you feel defined the way men have been taught to be or should be if they want to be a real man in our society. What are some of the things that made each of you start thinking about changing the way you wanted to define yourselves? I know Phil, you said that you were pretty uncomfortable with having to be the initiator in the dating process in high school. When did some of these things start to change for you?

- Well, actually in high school because I didn't date that much. I didn't, I didn't enjoy, didn't feel comfortable with that kind of pattern. So I just didn't partake in it. I was a satisfied with it. I, I guess it was back then when I really started feeling those things and it has been started I guess it continued during college too.

- How about in high school in relationship to the sports kind of thing?

- Oh, wow. Yeah, that was really important in defining what I was especially being, especially defining myself as a male. I felt a heavy, heavy pressure to participate in athletics especially as a freshmen and sophomore in, you know in establishing my status in high school and so forth.

- Well, isn't it establishing your masculinity though?

- Sure, sure. That's what it was partly. And it wasn't until I was about a junior that I realized through some challenges of my sisters, they said, "well Phil, do you really enjoy that?" And I said, "no, I don't enjoy football." And I said it, and I didn't, I realized, you know what was happening. I felt I sat down and I, I thought, why am I doing it? And I, then I didn't realize it was so much a trained masculine kind of conditioning but I realized that I was doing it partly for a status thing, which in turn is a male.

- Yeah. I know from my experience, I, I don't know I just hadn't been raised to participate that much in any of the sports or so I really did have a lack of a competition spirit or whatever and the pressure was amazing. I just was searching, I guess for some outlet to prove myself. So I excelled in the leadership area and you know, it's student government and, you know politics and the whole thing like that. And, but just anything to prove to myself and my peers and the world that I was a functioning male, you know but I did, I did have masculine characteristics and just put me on a a trip for like three, four or five years.

- Well, Barbara, what were some of the things that made you start rethinking?

- Well, okay. I was I didn't really understand why I should have to search and excel in other areas besides sports to prove myself. I mean, I didn't see why sports were that important. I enjoyed what I did in high school. I was, I mean, I was into it. I was a normal person I suppose. But then I guess I came up to KU as a freshmen and became close with a few women who were so were beginning to associate themselves and, and feel some of the well the ideas of the Women's Movement. And I've grown with them. I think I've, I've experienced their feelings. I mean, they've shared them with me kind of I've seen women friends of mine, really finding new sources of happiness, reinforcement, fulfillment, and it's been largely through the Women's Movement. And, you know, I would, well, I I have a friend who just came back from a Women's Convention in Pennsylvania. And I remember when she went to her first convention three years ago and came back you know, just, Oh, this convention was marvelous, you know all these great things we didn't. And I kind of sat back and thought, Oh that sure would have been nice, but it was all women there. There was no place for a man there. And that's about when I began to question why can't I have something like that too? And so I, I largely attributed where I've come to today at least starting with the Women's Movement and my exposure to it. There's, you know, a lot of things there that I don't think it's just for women. I think it's kind of evolving towards a humanism like Gloria Steinem, like you said, at the beginning.

- Frank, how about you? Having been married for six years and been away from campus and in sort of in a different kind of world, what were some of the things that got you involved in rethinking what it meant to you to be male?

- Well, I guess as I mentioned before, the idea of coming back to KU was really sort of a big decision. A lot of people said that that was just not a thing that I should do at the time. It just was unheard of, you know. So that sort of started the break. That was the idea of, of not doing something traditionally. And I guess that was because all of the job was a good job. I really felt that I would be more effective at and have more fun and, and, and enjoy it in the long run at being a counselor or someone in Higher Education Administration, something like that. And then, well, naturally when when my wife and I started to have some problems I started to think about some other kinds of things in terms of our relating and how men and women related together. And, and then after we, we separated for a while. One of the real things that came home to me was that there weren't really very many people that you could lean on. There weren't really very many people I felt like I could be open with, especially man, be close to. And at that time, I really needed someone to say you know, boy, this is really a miserable experience. It really is, has taken its toll on me emotionally. And I felt very self-conscious about talking to any of my male friends about it. And so I got thinking about the whole thing about the lack of closeness between my friends, who I had known at that time for some of them, you know, six years some of the new friends back at KU, as long as three years. And yet I didn't feel comfortable saying, I'm really in an emotional trauma right now. And I guess that sort of stretched me and started me thinking because it was almost a crisis necessity kind of thing. I really needed to, to redefine some of my roles with men and with women. And I, I guess, I, I guess I'd say that I'd had most men would have to either encounter be friends with a woman or a male who was sort of becoming aware. And then I guess I see that as being part of the the beginning mechanism. Someone else, you know very close to you has some sort of inputs in your life that you consider to be significant starts to changing. And then you start thinking about your own self and you kind of I guess model has some bad connotations to it but I guess you do, you start modeling, you see that they're making some changes and you, you like that and it looks enjoyable to you and it seems to be someplace you'd be comfortable at. And so you try it and try some things.

- Phil you said that you were starting to rethink some of these things in high school and, and thinking about going out for football and things like that. Were there other men that you could talk to in your high school then, or did you pretty much carry that around alone for a long time?

- About those kinds of things there weren't too many other men to talk to. Really right now, I can't think of any other men that I talked about that with. Yeah. Some of the clubs, some of the women I was close to I did.

- Yeah. If, if you share those kinds of feelings with another man at least on that level, that man is going to think, you know, he's weak then you've destroyed your image of masculinity.

- Men are not supposed to be weak ever.

- Right. So, so if you share the well if you recognize those feelings in yourself, like I at one point, you know, recognize it, you know I was in a really big dilemma because I I hated sports and I was being pushed into other areas to fulfill my masculine my needs to fulfill my masculinity or whatever. And well, you just...

- What do you think it was because that you can't expose that vulnerability to other men is that one upsmanship kind of game that we talked about before? And if you show those weaknesses, then he's won up on you. I mean, he's won and winning is everything.

- Yeah. And you've also lost yourself. Your self esteem and respect.

- I guess, one of the real good experiences that I had back at that time when I was going through that emotional situation was that I did finally have to open up to one of my friends. And it just so happened that in a very short period of time he sort of got caught in a crisis situation. And I guess, because I had opened up to him, he felt like he had nothing to lose because I was already down one. So he opened up to me. And since that time we built a very close relationship and we really, it's kind of funny. It's a much more of a sharing and a much more of a kind of knowing each other then. And then I ever had and we knew each other for three years before that but yet now I really think I know him Oh, much much more than I did before. And it's a much nicer relationship. It makes us both more comfortable when you really know the person as a person, rather than and I know this sounds perpetrate but know the person as the stereotype, the super whatever he takes to be whether it's the, the football player or whether it's the take charge politician or, you know you have these little stereotypes and you're much more comfortable, you think anyway dealing with a person in a stereotype. But when you break those stereotypes down and you see them as people that makes well, for one thing in any way with me it made me much more accepting of my own humanness and my own, not perfectness and not stereotype because I knew I didn't fit into anything perfectly you know, whether it was football player or leader or the take charge person. There are always some fringe things that didn't fail and other things that stuck out of the stereotype.

- Well I think that we want to talk a little bit about the experiences that you've been having in your groups. Phil and Barbara are in the same men's discussion group. And then Frank is in a different one. And I think the listeners would be interested in knowing what is going on in your groups, what kinds of things that you're talking about? And so I think we'll talk a little bit about how you got your group started and what kinds of things you discuss after we take a station break. And at that time we will also take some questions from our listeners. So we'll be back in a minute to "A Feminist perspective." Welcome back to a "Feminist Perspective.". This evening, we are discussing "Male Awareness" and we have as our guest, Frank Bintavingo, Barbara Deaton, and Phil Cleaver. We've been discussing during the first part of the program, some of the limitations of the male role, as it has been defined of having to be a breadwinner and supportive of family. Having to be the problem solver and having to provide the strength and coping in situations and have always have emotional control. The kind of competitive aggressive relationships that you have with other men, which are distance producing which don't allow you to show your weaknesses and your vulnerabilities. And then we were just going to discuss the groups that that you are in and how they got started. And what kinds of things are you doing in your group? So Phil and Barbara, you're in a different group than Frank and your group has been going for about three months. Would one of you like to talk about how you got together? How you found other men who was sharing these kinds of things. Also, before I forget, during this half an hour we want to invite any of the listeners who have questions of any of the three participants tonight. Call please. The number is 864 -4530, 864-4530. And we'll be glad to answer any of your questions. Okay, Barbara, you are going to respond to my question.

- Okay. Like I said before, I had been out talking about a lot of these things with women friends of mine. And well I felt a definite lack of something there, like I felt a need to communicate ideas like we've been talking about with other men to get their response their hopefully support, but at least our feedback. I really did feel the need to communicate to other men. So I talked to friends and kind of began to spread the word around that I was interested in something like this and Phil and a few other friends, we just kind of precipitated together. We, well we I guess we all felt the need we wanted to do it. And it just, it just kind of happened. We initially had a group of 12 men who indicated an interest. I yeah it, I initially listed this our group as a course offering with the Free University. We got some publicity that way through word of mouth and things like that. So we, we initially had a group of 12. We met, I guess, about three months ago now. And our group has consolidated consolidated down to a group of nine men. And we're all pretty well committed to staying with the group and we meet weekly for two hours.

- So how did you feel the first time you were going to the group? How did you feel about it? Were you, were you anxious or what? What kinds of things did you expect from the group?

- I was, I was excited, but cautiously. So I know that after the weeks have gone by that my commitment is more and more partly because I feel I'm probably getting more and more out of it. And I, I went just to find out more, more about myself as what I was as a man, what it meant to be male. And I hope that I was hoping that I could find that through other people's experiences and sharing some of mine.

- I think one of the guys in our group something up pretty well when he said it was at the first meeting when he said that this was the first time that he had been with other men doing a meeting with a group of men since he was in Boy Scouts in junior high school or something. And well, Boy Scouts definitely was not going in the kind of direction that we were going.

- Frank, your group is a newer group. How did that group get started? And in how many men are in there too?

- Well, we've only met once where, when we first met, we had I think, seven or eight members this last time. A number of people have expressed an interest since that time. And we probably will have somewhere between 12 and 15 members this time. I know like Phil, the first time we met I had a fair degree of apprehension. I was a little, a little frightened of what I would find what would go on in the group, mixed with some excitement about the things you could learn and the possibilities of of sharing some experiences and the possibilities of getting some reinforcement, because frankly there isn't much reinforcement when you decide to opt for something less than the traditional male role in our society. A matter of fact there's a tremendous amount of negative reinforcement which we've been talking about here tonight. And so I guess the first experience was a very positive one. Our group got together and it was, I didn't had I wouldn't have recognized just about anyone in our group until I came. We all came together. So that we're almost total strangers everyone we had maybe one or two of us seen each other before and share the commonalities that all men share. Like, you know, how are you doing on grades and what a good basketball team so-and-so has certainly not care. But the meeting was a very I guess for me, it's somewhat unusual in that it immediately got on the feeling and sharing level. And we sort of cut through all of the what do you do for a living? Where do you want to go in the way of a job? What are you majoring in and the sports and the traditional ground that men deal with and got down to the feeling of uncomfortableness with male roles as defined by society. And it was a very, yeah, a very good experience. I really enjoyed it. And I did get a lot of reinforcement. And I think I'd say almost unilaterally the members in the group were really lifted by it. And they're anxious to meet again this week.

- Yeah. I remember after our first meeting, well I had not really shared a whole lot on these levels and terms with other men and I had all kinds of fears and doubts and questions and about myself really. And I remember after our first meeting, I was just, I was just amazed. I was just in seventh heaven because other men in the group told me that they were feeling the same kind of fears and doubts and questioning themselves the same way that I was. I had been thinking for years that I was abnormal.

- Yeah.

- What, what kinds of feelings do you, Barbara and Phil do you have now that it's been three months? What kinds of good things have come out of your experience in the group and the way you're thinking about yourself and the way you're relating to other, to other men, to women and to the freedom you feel about your career choices and things like that?

- Well, first of all, I think it's really made me aware of how I relate to the man, like in the group. That is, I think one of the main things that we do to we relate to other men and we find out how men relate to other men by doing it. I see that I'm more aware of sexist kinds of things like my instructors. I, I, especially since most of them are male I noticed how they use sexist terms or sexist examples or male examples, I should say, you know and they refer to a people as man or scientist is man. And in my relationship with my girlfriend it's really helped to bring us more on a partner level. She's been active in the Women's Liberation Movement and it's, it's just been a good thing in that sense too.

- How about you Barbara, have you had some some good things happen as a result of the experience?

- Well. Yeah, I know I've started to build kinds of well friendships with men in the group that are not based on the same kinds of terms that society has always dictated that I, you know the way I build friendships with men, like on the football field or in the locker room or talking about politics, you know, very superficial things like that. I've tried to get away from that many of the, well I think the whole group is really very close. We've, we've gotten to know each other on more than a superficial level. That's been very important to me to well, to find out that the men, including myself, experienced emotions and can legitimately express weakness at times if they have to. And just, well, a whole range of things like we talked about before, about the restrictions those restrictions are beginning to be lifted. I feel that I no longer really have to achieve to the great degree that, that I felt I had to before. I want to go into medicine right now but I would think I want to do that because I have a sincere desire to do that. But if I don't go into medicine, there's a whole range of other things I can do that aren't necessarily as status seeking. Like I'd love to be a gardener. And I mean, if my dad heard me say that he'd probably you know, just drop, you know, in his tracks but I would love to be a gardener and I would be perfectly happy for the rest of my life being a gardener. I really feel that that's a significant thing that I've accomplished because I'm no longer really trying to achieve so much. And it's just, you know, made me a whole lot happier.

- One of the things that I talk about that I once heard someone say or read somewhere, was it "it's okay to to want to achieve, but it's not okay to have to achieve." And I guess that's what I hear you saying. You know, you can choose to, you know to be president of the United States, but that's because you choose to not because it's a role that was defined.

- I don't think that the society has really gotten to that point yet though.

- Yeah.

- I know that one of the things that happened for me after my divorce was, in times that I was really lonely, I had always thought, you know a man would satisfy that loneliness, you know, but I learned that other women could do that. That I could party with other women. That I could share with other women. And it, you know, in lots of different ways and really learn that, that it didn't have to be a man. You know.

- I've one thing that I have realized is that, well, I've always had to share my problems and my frustrations with women because well if I shared them with a man that man would think that, you know, that I was weak. I wasn't, you know, not a complete male, you know there was something questionable about, about me. And then I would doubt myself also. So I've always shared with women. So in one thing that I've gained, I think is that, I really realized that I can share with men now and men understand men so much better than women can understand men, and vice versa. So by talking to Phil about a problem of mine that I'm really, you know, going through I think he can empathize with me much more because he's a man. He's probably gone through similar experiences or can relate to them better than a woman can and well, vice versa.

- Yeah. I think that to hear you saying that makes me remember when the, the beginning of the Women's Liberation Movement, how threatening that was to men, for women to say, you know, that that other women could understand them better. And they chose to be with them sometimes.

- The Women's Liberation is still threatening to men.

- But now that there are some men who also can feel that there's other men who can understand them better. Well what kind of reactions have you gotten from men who who don't understand what you're trying to do? Who, who don't feel the need perhaps right now to be in these kinds of groups and who don't understand or feel the restrictions? What are some of the kinds of feedback that you've gotten from, from these kinds of men?

- Well, basically there's been a lot of negativity. There's been doubts too. Like some men just don't even think about it. They just going, Oh, those weirdos, but we've gotten some really negative feedback. A lot of men questioned our, our masculinity, you know they're going through that same typical response that we've talked about. One of the, the guys in our group is also there then we meet on Wednesday nights and he related an experience to us that some of the men on his floor have kidded him on Wednesday afternoon was like, you know, are you going to your meeting this evening? And you know, he said, "sure, I'm going." But it's they really don't understand what we're doing. And so they're well they're kind of threatened, I think.

- We have a phone call. So we'd like to hear the question that our listener has.

- [Listener] Okay. I know there is a considerable amount of literature pertaining to the Women's Movement available now. And I'd like to ask these men, if they know I guess there is much literature pertaining to the Men's Movement, or if, if there is any could they suggest some readings?

- Okay. Well, thank you for your question and do any of you wish to respond?

- Warren Farrell had an article in Ms. Magazine in the February issue, February '73. I'm not sure of the title, but it would be easy enough to find. It's the February issue of Ms. Magazine. He also is publishing a book that I understand should be on. Well now I heard it was going to be at the 1st of April called "Beyond Masculinity," right? There are several, several articles in newspapers and in journals that I at the Dean of Men's office, I have a bibliography. If anyone was really interested, they could contact me or they could contact one of the members of the other group. And we could, we could share the bibliography with you. Yeah, it lists about about 10 or 15 articles. And then there were about another five or six books coming into print this spring.

- Tom Sawyer is a good. He's written a lot of things on the, on the topic, different articles. Also I'm reading a book now, "The American Male" I think it's by the guy's name is Barkley or Bernstein or something like that. The, I have several books at home. There's a organization called, "Time Changes Press" that puts out pamphlets on a kind of small books. And many of are quite a few of them deal with liberation in the sense of human liberation and also men's liberation, women's liberation. And they're very good. Also Lionel Tiger has a book called "Men in Groups," that is a pretty analytical actually survey of a male, the male mind, I guess this is also...

- Also open marriage, I thought had an interesting perspective on a partnership relationship by the woman.

- Yep. "And Pairing by a block" is another good book.

- Does that answer your question? She said, okay, well we thank you for calling. And if anyone else would like to call and address a question to any of the three panelists you may call 864-4530. We were talking just a little bit about some of the negative reactions that, that the assumption that maybe of men get together they're gay or some of the other kinds of threatening feelings that you've feedback that you've gotten. Frank, are you going to say something?

- My associations are somewhat older, I guess. And I find kind of a reserve interest on a lot of people's parts and they ask a question very similar to the one we just answered. What do you read and what is awareness? And, and I guess I have some theories as to why that is. I guess for me it says that a lot of people are experiencing the same kinds of things that I was experiencing. The distance in relationships, the trouble, maybe relating to a partner whether it be wife, girlfriend, someone you're living with. And they would like to have some sort of kind of like a touch of what it's all about to see if that's going to be the answer. And I frankly think it is I've for me I know, as I said before it's made the number of male friends that I have and that I've shared with a lot closer and feel a lot more like what a friend really is. I feel like we can come together on a given day and not have a chosen topic, you know like the football game or the weather and really talk to one another. I mean, I guess we've all experienced it at the time when you sit down next to someone and you think clutch, what's the next topic, you know? What am I going to say? What's his interest?

- I think that also there is pretty generally a lot of fear when like another man asks us or responds to what we're doing out of fear, out of lack of understanding I think because men just are not supposed to relate on the levels that we're talking about. Like it's just not in the social norm right now for men to talk very personally to other men and to to deal with their own whether on emotions, feelings, sexuality, relationships with women on other than a superficial level. Men just aren't supposed to get involved with other men.

- For me, another thing it is, for me at least it has changed in a very big way. The way I relate to women that I see, date, or for lack of a better word. It really has made it a much better relationship and much more trying not to use some of the same words we use all the way through. But I guess you get to know one another, a lot quicker. You get to really find out about one another. If you, if you begin to open up and begin to say, you know this is who I really am. I'm not Mr. Football. I'm not Mr. Take charge. I'm I'm Frank and Frank has these these kinds of traits about him that I think are, are positive. And these kinds of traits about them that probably by society's definition are not so positive but I think they're me and I am comfortable with them. And then if you can find someone to open up with you like that, I think you're fine that it at least for me, it was a very, a really good experience. It really makes a relationship a lot sounder.

- I think that Phil kind of said sort of similar kind of thing when you said that you're beginning to become aware of a lot of sexism that goes on and is evident and well in our day to day life. I think big by becoming aware and increasingly aware of that sexism you're realizing, and I know I've gone through the same thing and still am that, that that sexism that is well is an indication of the male dominance, oppresses women also oppresses me as a man. And therefore by me starting to lift this oppression from myself, I can relate so much better to women. I don't have to oppress them anymore. I don't have to oppress myself anymore. I can go on and start to build really good relationships, grow and growing kind of relationships with, with women other men that are not based on this constant oppression that we, we keep fighting.

- I guess for me, when you said oppression it kind of lapsed into another word, which was to impress. I guess I find myself at times when I start off on a new relationship climbing back into the old Frank who wants to please and be the person who impresses someone and it's really remarkable that now I've gotten to the point where as soon as I start that kind of, here's the raw Frank, here's the Frank that I know you'll like I draw back and I say, no, wait a minute. There's, there's a dead end at the end of the street you're starting to drive down because eventually you're going to have to say, this is the Frank and I've been leading you astray that there that's not the real me. So I guess the impressing of people sort of falls by the wayside and you feel much more comfortable when they like you because then they like you for you and not for the role you've been playing.

- Right. I know that I have been really conscious in my relationship with a woman that I'm really close to when I start being competitive or try to show well I can do something better than she can or when I try to hide a weakness from her or different things like that, that are typically male and it's, we're constantly confronting each other. What is this? You know? Is this a typically a male thing that I'm doing. It's kind of good. Sometimes it gets to be annoying but it really makes me aware anyway.

- Phil I've, I've been pleased myself that you've been at Hilltop Daycare Center this year and that there were other men there since I have a daughter there. I really appreciate the fact that there are males and nurturing what I would call nurturing roles or taking time with children, not just bread winning for them but you know, spending time with, in fact I sort of feel like I'm bread winning for her and other people are taking time with her sometimes. So how does that feel to you and had other men respond when they find out that's something you choose to do?

- Well, it's something I really enjoy doing. I'd like to make a comment about working there are things that I have noticed and things that the group has done to me, I've become really aware of how children at the age of four and three years old are already into their roles. When they make doctor nurse hats, the boys wear the doctor hats and the girl where the nurse hats. Outside the girls play in the sandbox. They make little houses, the boys run around, make noise and play with the balls. I was just, I thought, wow, at this age already, you know as far as how other men have reacted to it, I really haven't gotten any response that much anyway. Women have said, this was a really neat thing to do but as far as from other men, I haven't gotten that much of a response when we are together.

- But you yourself enjoy relating to children.

- Oh yeah. It's something I really enjoy. I feel I learned something from children. I know like there are boys that aren't into the role already. They'll come up to me and hug me or they'll and they'll say warm things to me, or be express their emotions. And I really, it really makes me aware that, you know I can maybe be that way too.

- When, when I came back to school and went into graduate school and my wife was working full time I spent a lot of time with our son who I guess was about three at that time. And I guess if there were fathers listening who who haven't had the chance of spending three or four routine days, and I don't mean a special day at the zoo or a special day at the Natural History Museum but just a day, and really relating to your son or daughter on a kind of everyday nonchalant kind of manner, not not a special kind of thing. It's really a very, very good feeling. I mean, it really, it builds a bond between you that's really, really not there. Cause I worked, as I said for three years on a full-time job and came home at five o'clock and was exhausted and ate dinner. And then he went to sleep at about seven o'clock or something. And you got two hours of a tired son or two hours of a tired child. Whereas if you spend the entire day with him I really enjoyed it. I think, I think if I go back, which I probably will and work full time, that'll be one of the things that I'll miss the most is having children home all day long or coming home at three o'clock and not spending that kind of time with them. It, for me, it was a really great feeling.

- Speaking from the, from the standpoint of having a father who would come home every evening at 8:30 or nine. And, you know, we would have to wait dinner for daddy. I, you know, I think that as a child, I would have grown up a lot happier if I could have spent more time like a day or two, maybe a week with my father.

- Well, I thank you. The three of you for sharing some of the things that you've shared this evening. Frank Bintavingo, Barbara Deaton and Phil Cleaver talking about "Male Awareness." I think we discussed before the show that we wanted to give phone numbers in case there are any of our listeners who are interested in getting in to a men's group or getting any more information about men's groups or male awareness or anything. So I'll repeat these numbers to you. And if you'd like to jot them down. 843-3494, that's Barbara's number. 864-3611 That's the office of the Dean of Men. And 864-1301, that is Phil Cleaver's phone. So if any of you that are listening want any more information or want to talk with any of these men about some of their experiences and some of the things they're thinking, I hope that you'll give one of them a call. Well, I'm really encouraged by our discussion. I'm always have new hope when I see, you know that that not only are women grappling with the roles and the limitations that men are too, and that we will, at some point, we'll be able to come together in some sort of new humanism where we can all relate on who we really are as authentic people, rather than out of the roles that we've all been so socialized into. So I appreciate you coming in and sharing these things and it's refreshing and helpful to me as a person as well as sharing this with our listeners. Next week I hope you will come back and join us on "A Feminist Perspective.". And I also want to remind you that on April 10th, Warren Farrell will be on campus for the spring symposium of the Commission on the Status of Women. And he will be talking about some of the things that we've talked about this evening. So thank you for listening to a "Feminist Perspective," and tune in again next week.