- Good evening is this Jan Sanders, this is the dean of women at KU. I'd like to welcome you to this evening's presentation of a feminist perspective. This weekly radio broadcast, is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, a program and information service of the dean of women's office, 220 Strong Hall. Located in the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, you will find a large lending library, and a resource center containing vast amounts of information including news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, games, films, and books, pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We would like to invite you to come in and browse, and take advantage of the lending library. And by the way, the materials in the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center are as valuable for men, as they are for women, since sex role definitions and stereotypes affect both sexes. So the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center is in room 220 Strong Hall, at the University of Kansas. Our program this evening, is the continuation of our series on exceptional women. Women who don't fit the stereotype, of the average American woman. And this evening, we are considering black women, specifically black women as they relate to the feminist movement. Our guest this evening is Mumbi Corombo, assistant to the dean of women at KU. Mumbi, could you tell us a little bit about your background?

- Okay, I got my undergraduate degree at The University of Kansas in social welfare, and I'm currently in the master of business administration program. And I just began working this last semester, for the Dean of Women. And, I'm a Lawrence resident, and I guess that's about it.

- And there's something that I'm aware of that's planned. By the time this broadcast is aired, where will you be?

- Oh right, so tomorrow morning I leave for Kenya East Africa, and I'll be there for a month, and then I'll be coming back here to work at the university.

- Mumbi, strikes me as a black woman, who is very aware and secure in her identity. She's our only guests this evening, but we will be looking at some literature by and about black women, and considering their role in American society today. I'd like to start out with an, introduction written by Betty Jean Overton, an instructor at Tennessee State University, in a, in an article called "Black Women in Women's Liberation". " Women of the world unite, rings the battle cry of the women's liberation movement. Surprisingly, some black women have added their voices to this cry for women's lib. Other black women, consider it I "peculiar brand of feminism and white liberalism' designed to divert them from the black revolution, and turn their to bras, miss America contest, kitchen, kitchens and male chauvinism. Some of however, some black women become angered by such statements, Stokely Carmichael, "the proper position for the female in the civil rights movement is prone." These women seek a new identity, outside the traditional stereotype of black women, as mammies, promiscuous females and dominating wives. These women are seemingly trying to fit themselves somewhere into definitions of women's lib, such as that offered by a black woman, Jovaun Indi, which is, an attempt to encourage women to determine their own roles and not be forced into positions, emotional, physical or psychological, established for them by society." Betty Jean Overton goes on to say that 'The reasons behind black women being involved in the feminist movement, can be very ambiguous," and that she says, "Many of the black women involved, will admit that at the present time, much is still uncertain about the correct path, but it quite is clear to most of these crusaders, is that some action must be taken." Now Mumbi, in reviewing a lot of the articles recently in black publications, about the feminist movement, some of this ambiguity, seems to come through. Do, are our priorities, they're saying with being black or with being women, do you see any kind of dichotomy between the black movement and the feminist movement?

- Well, I definitely see a dichotomy. I feel that black women should have as their priority, the black struggle, and, and lend support within this country, to the women's movement. But, it most definitely is not a priority, or I don't feel it should be a priority among black people, and most definitely in this country. Now, if you want to take it outside the United States, well where a lot of the situations that exist in the United States are not representative, well then you might talk about the women's movement. But as it exists in this country, black people, you know, really should not have that as a priority, and, and have that as something that you're actively involved in.

- Well, I am sure that you would agree that as a person, you cannot separate out being black from your personhood.

- Oh, no, I don't, I most definitely cannot, but generally I have found that, discrimination or my being able to go to a certain school or something, has been because I'm black, not because I'm a woman.

- Well, I was gonna to ask if you can, separate out being a woman, from your personhood.

- Oh, definitely not, no, I can't. I, I, I wouldn't even, you know, suppose for a moment that I can do that.

- So for you, both of those things are very much a part of your identity.

- Oh, most definitely yes.

- Okay, I think that some of the confusion, might arise from what the definition of feminism is. And of course, within the women's movement itself, there are dozens of definitions. I know the one that sometimes appears most general, and one that I kind of choose to subscribe to, is the idea that feminism seeks equality among persons, unhampered by roles or stereotypes. Now, given that general definition of feminism, would you call yourself a feminist? Someone who seeks equality among persons, unhampered by roles or stereotypes?

- That's a good question.

- I'm asking that because

- What I would say, according to that definition, I would be called a feminist.

- It seems that someone who has, has fought so long against some kinds of roles and stereotypes, would be, would be very aware and be very committed to their abolition and to true equality.

- Right.

- And, and so, I guess it's very, very easy for me, as a person who is white, and defines herself as a feminist to say, it seems to me, that, that surely black women could be called feminists. And, I'd like to probe a little deeper and, and find out where the

- Well I, I would go against black people being called feminist because, as you admitted, there are a number of definitions for it. And, another person may not use that particular definition or even have that in mind. So, to me, for a black woman to consider herself or call herself a feminist, would be, would be to make a mistake, because you don't know how the other person is conceiving it. Okay? And so, for that reason, I do not consider myself a feminist, however, if I'm sticking to that particular definition, I would be a feminist.

- For equality.

- Yes, right.

- I'm, I was looking at an article called, "Feminism and Black Nationalism" written by Myrna Hill, who identifies herself as a black socialist, very involved in the political struggle. And she is saying that she feels that, most of the issues that are of concern to black people in general, are also very, very woman related. For example, equal opportunity in jobs, black women, are at the very, very lowest paid category. First of all, you have white men, and then you have black men, and then white women, and then black women, are at the very bottom. And yet more, many more black women work than white women proportionately. So, it seems again to me, that this is a very fertile area for black women to be concerned with.

- Well, I think that a black woman, has every reason to lend support, but at the same time, it's not a priority and therefore, they would pay, play a non-active role. But you know, there are a number of struggles, anytime people are struggling for liberation, or liberation from oppression or exploitation, I feel like black people should lend support, and that would be for any struggle. But, if you're talking about something active, an active part, then, I feel the black women, should have played no active role in the women's liberation movement.

- Okay, what about the role of, of black women, in the black movement? Again, the, the black socialist Myrna Hill, points out that, within the black movement itself, women have just played the quiet, supportive role. The women who have achieved prominence, are the wives of the black leaders, Mrs. Martin Luther King, Katherine Cleaver, and they achieve prominence through their husbands. And yet it seems like black women, have such tremendous oppression. Well, I would say among, you know, black people, the oppression that we might talk about would be, you know, like black women might seek to rid themselves of stereotypes within the black community. If you're talking about that. In terms of playing a supportive role, I don't know that that exists, as an example, we could talk about, black cared people or, or whatever. They're just as likely to be women as not heads of committees, there just likely to be black women as not. And I don't think within the black community, I think, it's, as long as the person is able to do the job, that, whether you're a male or female, you know, has absolutely no bearing.

- I've, again, in some of the contemporary black literature, they're talking quite a bit about the coming together of black men and black women, primarily through the new strength and pride of black men, and saying that women should be in a very supportive role and not try to overshadow this. Do you think that this new black pride for the black male, means this black female must be subjugated?

- No, most, most definitely not. And we're not talking about either personally, and rather, we're talking about walking along side by side. And so, I feel like, you know, within the movement, and you know, when I talk about playing a supportive role, I'm talking about vice versa, quite naturally. I feel like black men, or, should show black women as much of a supportive role. You know, it's kinda like that commercial that once said if he wanna, if you want your man to be more of a man, try to be more of a woman. So, so this goes hand in hand. And so, you know, we need to show each other support.

- Okay, let's, let's go a little bit more on that commercial. Do you think that there is a specific way of being more of a black woman? I guess what I'm getting at, are the differences in the issues between black women and white women, in the priorities between them. So to be more of a black woman, to help support a man be more of a black man, what kind of things are ?

- Well, it of course depends on the individual man. And you know, I personally and, and this is only my opinion, the ways I would go about being more of a woman, honestly because I'm married to an African man, and he has very set ideas, and also because I find that I feel more a woman, I, for instance, don't wear mini dresses, I wear long dresses or pants, and, that to me, makes me more of a woman. Though a lot of those things, in terms of how I relate to him, in our, in a personal relationship, getting away from using, incorrect language, something that is demeaning you know, just using four language, you know, four letter words and the wrong kinda language, so that's something I'm trying very, very hard just to take on and those sorts of things. But again, it depends on the man, you know, and, a black woman would have to be able to adapt to the man, and hopefully, a, a black woman could have enough respect for herself, that she would be intolerant, you know, of some of the things that have existed in her presence, such as, men using bad language, which you know, my husband tells me, well, that's something that's just undone, you know, in his culture, and such things that I've learned from him, that a black woman eventually, will not tolerate. And so, you know, she'll seek out a certain type of a man. And, I think when black women have this much respect and hold each other, hope, hold each other and themselves up like this, well then black men will do the same.

- Okay, some of the things that I've been reading, say that one of the foremost issues for, in, in the white women's movement, if there is such an, a category, is control of your own body, in the area of women's health, and especially in the area of reproduction. So that a woman has choice of contraception, she has a, a choice of ways to raise her children, including daycare facilities, if she's working, she, and she has a choice of abortion also. And, one of the very distinct issues that arises, is the idea of genocide. That if black women employ more contraception, more abortions in, in a sense this is a plot, to wipe out the black population. Do you feel that this is a, a real conflict?

- I feel like genocide most definitely, or the attempt at it, does exist. And so, this might sound contradictory, but I'm all in favor of black women in this country, being given a choice, the choices of, that you've explained before. However, at the same time, they have to realize that, or I think they should realize that, at a conscious you know, overt effort towards genocide, you know, has and continues to take place in this country. So, if they have that understanding, I, you know, I feel like they, themselves would be able to make a choice.

- They can make a choice. Okay, again, to quote Myrna Hill, she says, "Black women in this country have been having babies for quite a while. What we want is not just more black babies, but a new black nation that is free. To have that, we'll have to destroy the society, which condemns black children's aspirations as hopeless, and where the evidence of black unemployment and despair, hanging out every day, on any Harlem corner. Black women can't do anything about changing this situation, by cooking greens and getting pregnant. The struggle that will replace this system, is outside the kitchen. For black women's energies to be used up sewing clothes and waiting on men, is a luxury that we cannot afford, even if it were desirable, which it is not. We can't spare half the brain power of our people, we're going to need it all. Would you buy into that?

- Well, I would disagree, in terms of the author's depiction of black women. I personally don't know of anybody that, that, you know, those sentences would fit. And I don't think, you know, you have black women that sit sewing and sit cooking and all that, I mean, you know, that is, that is not a reality that I'm aware of. But, if it were the case, I don't feel like I'm in a position to say black women should or should not have children, that is a very individual thing. I want them, to be aware of what exists, and then, once you, you know, take up all the alternatives and you realize well all the choices and you, realize your reality for what it is, well then, the choices is theirs.

- That, that to me sounds like, what I would call very much, a feminist statement. Talking about informed choice, that people, all people certainly have the right to awareness, and then the freedom to make their own decision, whatever they want. I think that, that, that is very much one of the foundations of feminism. I've, okay, something else, I read an article by Dorothy Pitman, the founder of The Community Control Daycare Center, in Manhattan. She identifies herself somewhat as a black feminist, but very much a black one. The title of her article is, "I Can't Call You My Sister Yet." A black woman looks at women's lib, and she is directing that statement, "I Can't Call You My Sister Yet" at white women. She is saying that in some ways, black women are a lot more feminist, that they, they've already reached some places, that white woman, women haven't. She says, "I guess I've always been in black consciousness raising groups. It's been necessary for survival. I can remember many, many times, and I still do it, when I go back to Georgia, sitting in the living room, talking with my auntie, and mother and other women. It's a consciousness raising session in the sense that's being used right now. One of the things that hasn't happened with white women, is that they haven't talked about themselves to each other." And she's saying that, "Black women do have this sense of solidarity, and kind of checking things out with other black women that, that white women, are just now beginning to learn."

- Well I think black women have a much greater, much like, I could just name percentages, a much greater reality, awareness, than white women do. And I think that that is something that is so ingrained in you from day one, that you, it's just like second hand to you, it's just something that, you've known all along. And I think, unfortunately I feel like a lot of white women, they're just finding out for the first time, a lot of things that, that black women such as I, have known from day one. And so, I think that's unfortunate, but at the same time, I'm very glad and very happy to see that it is happening, it's better, late than never. So I, you know, like I said, I lend support entirely to the women's movement in this country. Now I, you know, I, I say in this country, because, you know, from where I'm coming from, I can see where white women in this country, and men, I mean, they, they, they don't feel fulfilled. The roles that women, white women in this country once played, when you hear children and large families and, they had to be on the farm and all, is very functional,. But see, anything that a woman may have been needed for in the past, like sewing or cleaning clothes or something, a man, can go get someone, get, send clothes to the laundry, get somebody clean his house, get someone to do his cooking. And so, the only thing that is left, is white women to fulfill the sex object role. And so, that's why I totally support, the women's movement among white women in this country, because I, that's where I feel like it has come to. And this is true for the opposite sex, to anytime, a white woman, wants to do any of these things, she can do them just as easily, and without going through the, the trouble of having a man around, you know, as a marital problem, you can have him around, when, when it's convenient for you. And so, I feel like, white women, white women should realize this also, and, you know, this, this causes you then to redefine marriage. Like what, what, what's the importance of marriage, even in this system. And so, it's necessary for a person, an individual I should say, to realize that when he marries, it's for some other reason other than, the traditional reasons. And then, see if they have that.

- That sounds like a very, very political outlook.

- Oh yes.

- And, I, I can certainly understand how that ties down, with the, with the black movement. Again, to me, it sounds very much like it ties in with the women's movement here, because we were talking about, getting out of, out of the home and into the society, and having more effect on society that affects us.

- Well, any oppression, has its own sort of tie-ins. Like I say, anytime people are oppressed or exploited, they're gonna share a lot in common.

- Now, I think that again in some ways, black women certainly have been more advanced, because they have been out in the working world. They have been doing a job, there are many more home, black homes that are, have a female head of the household than white homes. There are very, many more black women, work outside the homes, than, than white women. But I think that we really share a problem, in that women, black women and white women that work, get the lower level jobs. One thing I think, one of the images of the working black woman, is as the domestic worker, in someone else's house or as a service worker. And according to the statistics, it's not just black women, but, one out of every five women that work, is a service worker, and, it's only one out of every 14 men, that works. So it, again, since so many black women are working, this seems like something that we have very much in common.

- I have to question one thing you said though, about heads of households. We find that in three quarters, of black families, you have a male head of the house, it's not what most people think. You're only talking about one quarter period and, those are people whose husbands, maybe gone for any number of reasons, and it had nothing to do with the, the quote and quote matriarchy, which I don't think exists. So, we're talking about only one quarter of black people period, and then among them, I don't know, what we might find. So, I don't know if the statement about, the number of white female heads of households versus the number of black, I don't know, I haven't seen those statistics, but I do know, that among the black population, we're just talking about one quarter.

- Okay, Yeah. I, I really, I think that that's true. The figures are from the census bureau released in 1972, and they say, I, I think that it, put it at this point, is the population, the black population, the percentage is Well they tell us, they tell us it's 10 or 11%.

- Okay, and I would assume that somewhat correct, but, let's see, more than, of all, of all family heads that are women, one quarter of them are black. So it's 25%, instead of the, kind of 10% you'd expect. But the thing that seems so tragic to me, is that the average income of families, that are headed by a woman, a black woman, in 71 was $3,645, and those families headed by a white woman, were five, their average income was $5,842. So still, if you're a woman, you're at the bottom of the pile, but if you're a black woman, wage wise at least, you're, you're really...

- Well there's one other discrepancy I wanna clarify too. When I say 25%, okay, we're talking about the whole black population is 10%. Now, among those that, they consider a family, among those, you have 25%, now that has nothing to do with that. And so, among those they, that might, it, you know, if you were to bear out the statistics, it might only be 10%, I don't know. But among those that are, that they consider a family, it's 25% of those, not that, it has nothing to do with the entire population.

- Several of the things that I've been reading, say that, if you, if you have prejudices, you go all the way. If you find someone who has religious prejudice, scratch them a little deeper, and that person has race prejudice, and you scratched them a little deeper, and there's sex prejudiced too. And, other people tie in very closely, the tie between racism and sexism. And, we're getting back to the, the same question, I guess I started with, can, can you support the elimination of one of those racism or sexism, without being against the other?

- Well, the only problem is that, while sexism is the world over, you know, you don't see the, the taking of human lives and or the whole populations controlled, such as in South Africa, because of racism. So therefore, racism in my way of thinking, you know, carries a predominant role. But I, at the same time, I realized that sexism exists all over the world, but you don't see people losing their lives, because they're black, or being considered fourth class, class citizens because they're black, or any of this thing like this. So obviously, racism in my way of thinking, has, you know, carries a predominant kind of role.

- Okay. I'm, I'm aware that our, our time is fading away, is there, is there anything else that, you think would clarify your position to the audience about you? How about a personal identity statement about Mumbi as a woman, as a black woman?

- Well, that oh that's heavy, well let me think. Well fortunately, because, my husband does not, you know, carry on these sex or, or sexist kind of raw images, because he doesn't believe in them, I guess I'm just lucky, you know, because, the ones that even exist in Kenya, where he's from, he doesn't believe in. So I guess that just makes me lucky. So, I am not, you know, I'm not in a position, especially to even be a feminist because, you know, of the kind of relationship I have with my husband. So, that's just fortunate for me. And so, it enables me to, do some other things, and be, be involved in some other things and some other people because they have the hang up of, having, you know, to be involved in this and that and holding it, that takes time. I can take time with other things that are, you know, maybe, maybe academic, or plaque, or something like that, but that's my own, you know, that's me personally, and I, and you know, my husband takes quite a bit of the credit for that.

- Well you...

- And he is also was very, very good teacher.

- You personally, your own personal identity statement is the core of all feminism, I think, where your awareness and strength and yourself. I'd like to close with, the title poem, by Mary Evans in her book, "I Am A Black Woman", and this is available in The Women's Resource and Career Planning Center. " I am a black woman. Tall as the cypress, strong, beyond all definition, still defying place and time and circumstance. Assailed, impervious, indestructible. Look on me, and be renewed".