- Perspective. This program provides a forum for women to speak out on issues which concern them, and listeners will have an opportunity to participate in the program by calling the KANU open line at 864-4530. And now here's the moderator for "A Feminist Perspective" KU Dean of women, Emily Taylor.

- Hello, this is Casey Ikea guest moderator in place of Emma Taylor, who is serving on the panel tonight. Thank you for tuning into "A Feminist Perspective." This weekly show is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, a program and information service of the Dean of women's office located in 220 Strong Hall. Also located in this office is our women's library. This library contains fast enough information, news clippings, magazine articles, research studies and books pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We would like to invite you to come in and browse or to take advantage of our lending library, that's in 220 Strong Hall at The University of Kansas, our guest, tonight, as I mentioned before, Dr. Emily Taylor, Dean of women at the university, Peggy Baldwins, who is the director of the resident theater at the Hashinger Center for Creative Arts, and Margie Swinth, an administrative intern at mengers. I believe that we have a very interesting topic for tonight's program. Our discussion will center around a new book that has just recently been released, and the title of it is, "How to Go to Work when Your Husband is Against It, "Your Children Aren't Old Enough, "and There's Nothing You Can Do Anyhow" which I think is a very appropriate title. It's published by three women, Felice Schwartz Margaret Schifter and Susan Gillotti, who all worked with a program called The Catalyst. Emma, could you give us an explanation about what this organization is and what kinds of philosophy and programming they do.

- 10 years ago in 1962, a group of college presidents of Liberal Arts Colleges for women, including Wellesley and Smith and Sarah Lawrence, Lawrence college, and one other, got together to discuss the problems that they could see developing. And I think it's very interesting timing because 1962 is after the appointment of the presidential commission on the status of women, but before they had a chance to give a report, and before the publication of Betty Friedan's "Feminine Mystique," these two reports, "American Women" and "Feminine Mystique" certainly would have to be considered the catalyst for the reopening of the women's movement, or for tremendous interest in the women's movement. Now, these people were all concerned over the fact that they were educating a great many women, and at the same time decreasing numbers of them were making any use of this education other than, of course, in their personal life and in their homes. That may have been all right with them during the '50s, because women were satisfied but they were getting increasing pressures from the women as to what's this all about. So, they started the nonprofit organization, Catalyst in order to try to work to have some pilot projects, to see whether it was possible to get educated women and employers together so that these educations that they had provided could have better use.

- Do you know of any of the actual programs and what kinds of help they provide to women that do use their facility.

- Yes. They've offered a number of pilot programs and everything which is in his book, which incidentally is a series handbook, even though it's a the topic, that title is very clever. I think the title is more of a "come on" than anything else because it's an essential handbook for women who are interested in getting back into the workforce and for employers who are being encouraged to look at the contribution that women can make in a little bit different way, from what they have been. Always the assumption that only the full-time job that they wanted to hire people only for full-time jobs, or for the most part that's what's been done. So they've done a lot of encouraging of employers just to try something different, and encouragement of women to really evaluate themselves to what they want to do and to take part-time jobs, if that's what they're interested in. So they have done a great deal of listing of jobs, the book contains a bi-decker of where the jobs are, what's involved with various kinds of positions, what the kinds of financial rewards that are available in it. They've done a lot of self guidance, they've done a great deal... I'm talking about Catalyst of course, have given a lot of individual help, and they published case studies of actual women and the activities they've gone through. They've published rosters of employers and registries of women who are to facilitate this kind of partnership that they're trying to work out.

- I would like maybe to talk a little bit about the kind of philosophy that's backing this kind of a program. I noticed on their book check that they stated that the educated family women want to work where they're needed, if offered responsible part-time jobs, their life experienced enables them to approach their work with maturity and judgment. Their productivity, working for shorter periods of time, is proportionately greater than the average full-time employee doing similar work. Their pattern of living as biologic established, reduces costly turnover. I think that's probably a radical change to what most employers and certainly personnel offices may believe. Maybe our desks to respond to that kind of philosophy and how maybe they've experienced this kind of job situation. I would say from my own personal experience that, that has been true. First of all, I got married, and had children and then returned to school. And at the time I returned to school, I was much sure of what I wanted to do in terms of a career to begin with, and I felt as if I was really preparing for something which I would grow into as I finished my degree, and I feel as if I'm much more stable in my decision than I might otherwise have been.

- I guess that I find it rather strange that employers wouldn't consider this option very strongly, part of it the maturity factor and part of it the the age and experience. But also, I was under the impression that employers benefited greatly with part-time employment because even just financially, they don't have to pay vacation pay, they don't have to pay some of the fringe benefits, they don't have to pay retirement. And that, usually a person who works part-time, investments themselves, if it's a worthwhile job, on a full-time basis in terms of their energy and their involvement and their commitment. And so then, I think the employer is getting a good deal. I think he's getting a full-time commitment and quite often as many hours, even though it's rationalized that it's a half-time job. If you really have a dedicated and committed person, you're getting there for thrust as it were and you're only paying a half time salary. And so I think it's really very much to the employer's benefit.

- And so it means to a lot of women.

- And to the women, right, because I've always looked upon it as where the financial benefit maybe wasn't completely commensurate with the amount of energy and involvement. I felt like I was getting my freedom at the same time. In other words, I had the ability to work, but also my freedom and I was willing to pay for them.

- I certainly agree with you that they confirm the point of view as an employer, it's a good thing. I'm sure as we sort of review the ideas in the book, that we'll talk more detail over some of this very points that that you've made. But the truth about the matter is that according to the reports of Catalyst, the most difficult thing has not been to the women themselves who want to return to work, but the employers, who are sitting in a mold that makes it extremely difficult for them to see how they can take what they've listed as a full-time job, and make it into some part-time jobs or even morning part-time job, because this has some evidence to a woman working as many as 24 hours a week, very often contributes as much, is as productive as one who works 40 hours a week. That may be because most jobs are not that fascinating, and that the energy level sort of wears out. And there's a lot of other factors, coffee breaks, lunchtime, a lot of things that don't have to be considered at all, but it has been difficult. They report to talk employers into doing this. A matter of fact, one of the sort of objections that I have to one thing we just said in a book, concerns personnel officers who are doing the hiring, and they're taking care of matters of that kind. I think that the authors give them unnecessary blame, I feel that they're the ones who are talking the employers out of it. My suspicion would be the other way around, that these people work under different constraints and restrictions as to what they can offer, and that if they have a a full-time job to offer and suddenly two people showed up to take it, I think there'd be some real questions I ask.

- They probably have to try it first and then realize the benefits from it, it's getting them to try it.

- That's right.

- There's an interesting forward to the book that we're talking about is a memo, and it concerns Parkinson's law, which expands to fill the time available for the completion of it. And he goes on to say in this forward, "Let me ask you executives a question, "would you rather have a 40 year old woman four hours a day, "or a 22 year old woman eight hours a day, "working at any particular non secretarial job "in your company? "Well, baby, if you pick the 22 year old, you've got the wrong lens "in charge of your decision making process. "Consider doing things. "One, the turnover will probably be 40% versus 15%. "Two there are many jobs "that human beings can't stand working at, "for eight hours a day, "and three, your 40 year old woman "will accomplish as much or more "toward the real objective of the job in four hours, "*as Ms. Moon pathway."

- It's probably not quire theory at all, you wanna do your own day.

- We have to protect them.

- I think that something that goes along with productivity on a part-time job, is that someone who is working full-time looks to her job for more than just getting the job done. She has other needs to meet during those eight hours, they cheer he is on the job. Whereas if you are working for part-time, you may picture your job as being an event for your mainly work, and you meet your needs outside of the job situation.

- Very good point.

- I think that maybe leads us a little bit into the kind of historic, women's economic role, historically, until I know that you've talked a great deal on this subject before maybe you could just kind of recap some of those ideas.

- I think very briefly, because we have talked about this occurs many times, but the Catalyst authors feel that research had come full circle. I think everybody has either seen, or seen play the movie or read the book, "Gone with the Wind." And you recall that the mother had gone with the wind, spend a great deal of time. She was the wife of the plantation owners, she's been a great deal of time, helping the sick and the poor, birthing babies and and taking food to the hungry and all the rest of it. They plus the fact that she ran the household. She certainly was working, and we all know of course, about the Kansas pioneers and all the rest of them. We hardly ever even watch the late movies, couldn't miss the fact that everybody was working. In fact, I think two times, I don't know who's helping us out here, but two times in the past two weeks, I have watched the late night show on did you see the one with Robert Taylor and Westward the women? Where they took a group of women to California, that's 15,000 miles, it started out with some men to assist but something conveniently happened to all of them. And so the women themselves, starting out with the 140 of them took the way of getting trained across the country to California and succeeded in getting there and without, according to the play, losing any of femininity. But, certainly women did work. And until the industrial revolution came along, and took the work out of the home, that's where they were. And then they followed the work that they had to, but we ran our talking in this book about the kind of woman who had to go to work in order to keep soul, body together. In fact, there's an assumption made throughout the book that educated women can get an educated man to support them if that's what they choose to do. And therefore, this is a choice that they make. The actual statistics of course, on unemployment indicate that in group, many people, that the vast majority of women work because they need the money, or want it, not necessarily need it, but want the additional things and additional education for their children that a job will bring to them. But at least, as we developed a very large mass middle-class it did make it possible for the first time, first time in the history of the world, except for a very, very few upper class women or nobility, to have a choice as to whether they worked or not. And we all know, you know, I mean you could run them through this entire century. We know that the middle class, in large numbers, was actually born at that time, we know that that WWI drew many women again into the labor force, and then out of a sense of patriotism, we know that the depression drove additional women into the labor force that the WWII had the same patriotic effect and then the post-war period and up until the 1960's of the great return to the home. And it is about these women that the educators are expressing so much concern, because they tried it and it didn't work for the majority of them. It wasn't enough, but they were left, most of them, with a liberal arts education, with the ability to deal with ideas with no specific scale, which they saw sealable. And I think the beauty of this book is that it teaches women how to analyze what they really do have even if they have never worked at all. And even if they have never learned any skill and anybody told them could be sold to anybody.

- Hmm, that's very valuable.

- I think the book terms that life experience.

- Right. Which happens of course to everyone but the life experiences that their woman has had who was married and had a family, and who many of them will say they don't know how to do anything, it's amazing. As it can do. as you analyzed just on the basis of the experience that they have had in operating a home and in running in a family.

- But that's a very internal process for the woman to analyze herself, to look within, to face herself, to decide to take stock of herself, and decided that this is something that she wants to do and marshal her resources to enable herself to do it.

- And so many cases, it was sort of a trial and error when the woman decided that she would go to work. She just took anything that was being offered. Barbara Walters of the "Today Show" who read an advanced copy of this book said that this the most important, authoritative and factual book, I wish it had existed when I first began work. I don't know how she started out, but I do know, and I'm sure you folks do too, many women who have just sort of searched about without making any true analysis, either of herself, her strengths and weaknesses, or without having any idea of what the job market really was or what kinds of services were needed.

- And the book is not talking about the women just going out and doing any kind of work, you're talking about jobs that have some purpose and meaning.

- That's right, it's this brainwork which Peter Drucker tells us. He's quoted several times in the book, is always in short supply.

- I can see then how the Catalyst is a viable organization because a woman may want to analyze her assets and not know what sort of framework to put them in. And it sounds as if us if the Catalyst can offer a framework with which he can analyze herself.

- I'm hoping too that employers will read it, of course. Because it certainly would be a rare employer, it seems to me who, after all, is in the business and making money who would not be interested in the kinds of evidence, not just ideas, not just philosophy but true evidence, that these people have to offer as to what actually happens, which will bring money into his coffers.

- I think they make a very good analysis of improving that too. The book kind of starts out with the first a chapter called The Good Life. And it's more of a discussion, it's kind of the first step, it's that a woman may feel certain things but not be able to articulate what it is, what kind of frustrations they are and how she doesn't really feel this self-worth that she thinks she should from a only a family or home situation. And the first chapter has been devoted to kind of bringing to light some of the advantages to having a career outside the home, and with also a family. It devotes a few paragraphs to just the aspect of identity that men receive measure their identity from what they do from their work outside of the home, and how they make money, and how they make money for their families too. And that's a vital part of any human being's identity, is what they do. And since maybe housework and staying at home has not had the kind of prestige that say, going out and actually earning money in society in some kind of set up situations that a woman does need some kind of self identity. Can either of you respond?

- I can identify with that.

- I hope when she looked back here, I didn't say something like it.

- No, go ahead.

- Yes, I had had a career before I was married. I was an actress and then married and went through a period of realizing, well I'd always combine a career and marriage, that it wasn't possible for me because I was highly ambitious and very concentrated and I didn't know how I could split my concentration that way, so when I decided to get married I gave up my career. That was one of the assumptions that I made. But after a period of about five years, I can look back now and see that I went into a state of deadness. I mean, I really think I got numb and dead inside even though I kept doing things, I kept directing theater and all, it was always as if... Well, my husband being a minister was within the church or I was volunteer or it was for children or something like this, it wasn't something where it was my focal point, and my dedication and, you know, had my identity, had the value of a job. I'm not working... I'm really not working for money even though... since I'm partially employed by dean Taylor I shouldn't say that in front of her. She'll cut my salary.

- You don't earn much anyways. But I'm working because I want to work and because a job using the theater and my art and my creativity is the way I live best.

- I think I responded very similarly to what Peggy said. I found that my conception of being a housewife didn't allow for me to express my own individuality. Now that had something to do with my conception of what it is to be in the home but I found that for me, my identity my sense of myself as an individual, apart from the other members of my family has been enhanced by going out and having a job. And I think having an income, that is all my own makes a difference too.

- Yes. That too although I experienced this... Well, I think every... Not every woman, but maybe a lot of women have to go through the same process of this this guilt feeling of, "Why isn't it enough for me?" you know. "Other women are happy being mothers "and staying in the home and raising their children "and this is very important and society "says it's important and all. "And so why am I not satisfied?" And yet it finally became quite apparent that I wasn't

- And it doesn't mean that your husband isn't important or your children are not important or that you object to the Don's wife or-

- Oh yeah.

- No it isn't that, its...

- You know, the Catalyst book also refers to the reduction of guilt on the part of the husband, whose wife is bored and frustrated, which I think is an interesting point because at the beginning of the title, how to go to work if your husband is against it. Actually, there are very few examples of the husband being against it, except in the one case of a Frenchman. He felt like it wasn't appropriate. Sometimes there were mild objections, but for the most part all the factual statistics do now indicate that it isn't husbands. And certainly, not educated husbands who were urging their wives to come home, they're rather urging the to demand their rights. Appropriate salary by the level of job that she has and...

- That's an interesting point because when you told me about the title of the book and I began to think about your husband being against it, I realized that I would think one of the prerequisites would have to be that your husband supported you and accepted it. I mean, I think you can go to work without that but it makes it twice as hard and it then puts a great deal of strain on the familial situation and the interpersonal relationship. And you could do it but I think it would be so abrasive and so difficult and, you know, I have to say that I'm very grateful for the fact that Don has has supported me and grateful when I, as soon as I say it, I think, "I shouldn't say that." Why should I be grateful for something that's my own right you know, and yet I realize how hard it could be and how difficult a man could make it for you if he really was against it. And I think that there's a great deal of adjustment for the husband. It's a very, I think, even if intellectually he is for it completely when faced with the actual facts of what this is going to mean to him, his involvement in the family, his acceptance of the responsibilities, more responsibility in the family, a conflict of schedules and just a lot of details, when it comes down to the cold, hard facts, it gets hard. It gets difficult for the man and then it becomes an adjustment for both of you and the entire family.

- Of course the other side of the coin is that if a woman doesn't go to work or doesn't do something relieve the frustration or fulfill herself, it's gonna...

- That sounds like a threat.

- But also I think that, we're talking about, maybe husband's role in this whole thing. I think that probably many men would be more than willing to take on more responsibilities within the home because it can expand their role and get more into men's liberation or standing roles and their being able to be closer to their families and sharing some family kinds of things that they weren't able to before.

- One of the very interesting case studies it's described in here, so a very efficient woman who had ran her household very efficiently and done everything for the family and tried to continue doing the same things, you know, after she took a job, but hers was really a full-time job, which she took and she was able to do these things but the family, I was beginning to recognize, not only that she was terribly overworked, but it almost seemed as if she didn't trust him to do anything. And when she finally went away on a trip for the company for which she was working, they took over and they did a number things and when she came back, she found them so self-sufficient that they did not worry her a little. So, it's as if they really didn't need her. So they explained to her that they certainly did need her. Her husband said, "You really wouldn't expect me "to get a great deal of pleasure out of cooking hamburgers "in the fireplace every night?" But the, after all, there are some things we can do. And her children who seemed unusually intelligent simply decided some things. That the young daughter who was 14 said, "From now on, we're going to cook breakfast." These are one of the chores that the mother had been taking care of and they sort of divided things up and the family became a really working unit where everybody was more satisfied.

- It would certainly seem to foster more independence on the part of children too. They need to learn skills and things and not be so dependent on one member of the family. I think we need to take a station break here for a few minutes and then we'll be right back with "The Feminine Perspective."

- Munich Germany in 1972 connotes an era of sadness as one recalls the tragedy of the Israeli massacre at the Summer Olympics. As the Munich Philharmonic orchestra play the funeral march from Beethoven's ninth symphony, millions felt the sorrow of the families of the slain athletes. Music has a way of expressing emotions more than words ever can, whether it is sorrow or jubilance, music transcends all language barriers. During the month of January, KANU will present Orchestras of The World, a series of forest aerial concerts presented by the Olympic Cultural Program in conjunction with the 1972 Olympic games. During this series, you will have the privilege of hearing the great orchestras of Germany, Japan and the Soviet union among others. These orchestras will perform the music of emotion and experience creating a catharsis of the joy and sorrow of the great composers with that of your own. Listen to The Orchestras of The World. Sunday afternoons at three on stereo 92. KANU, Lawrence.

- KANU, Lawrence. Here again is Casey Yankee.

- Welcome back to "A Feminist Perspective." Tonight we are doing a kind of book review show. We're discussing a recent book that's come out entitled, "How to Go to Work when Your Husband is Against It, "Your Children Aren't Old Enough, "and There's Nothing You Can Do Anyhow." Our guests are, Dr. Emily Taylor, Peggy Balvin and Margie Swimp. We were in the process of discussing kind of the pros, more of the pros and cons, I think, in this case of a woman combining a family and career. I think we had just talked maybe about... I haven't talked about children and all in their involvement and how this may foster independence on their part. Do you have children.

- Yes.

- For me, this has been very important because I've had to rely upon my seven year old boy, Mark and my eight year old daughter, Kiersten to carry on some of the jobs that I would ordinarily have tried to do. And I've discovered all sorts of potential in them that I wouldn't have otherwise known it was there. So it's been, in a way, a gift to myself to learn a little bit about them and they've been competent beyond my dreams at times.

- My children are younger. My youngest, Joy, is three and, Evan six. And so I think I encounter and I sure Margie has too, the fact that childcare is very important, good childcare. I don't feel good about just leaving my children with anyone. I want to leave them with someone who enjoys children and they enjoy them and that's very important. But also, you know, Don has absorbed a lot of the responsibility. And while I don't find that they are necessarily doing them much more because they're not at the age that they're able to do very much, I find that their reliance on their dad is much more. That when something goes wrong the first cry is for mommy, but if that doesn't work, the next one is for daddy, whereas before it used to go on and on until mommy responded you know. And also Don is feeling really good about his involvement with the girls and I have found myself having to let go of some of this sense of responsibility that I had to do everything for my children. And when I have let go it's been a really nice feeling to know that they weren't being cheated. That was another thing. I couldn't go to work and have my children come out on the short end. It had to be that somewhere along the line they would be compensated for it. And I think we've worked it out so far so that when I'm not there, a good part of the time Don is there, and they're developing really nice relationships that probably wouldn't have happened in that depth or maybe until much later or never.

- I will second that. And I think that I discovered too that actually some of those things that I thought it was very important for me to do not only can Bob do them, he can do them can do them far better than us.

- For instance?

- Like teaching Kiersten how to multiply. You know, just sitting down and spending time with her and some of these things that I find of only peripheral interest, he really enjoys. He will pick up and following through.

- There's an excellent chapter, chapter four on realities hard and soft which really deal with three things, with time and with money and with what professionalism really means. But one of the ones on time deals with childcare. And of course it'd be true money too. It's rather interesting that no mention is made in his book of childcare centers, but many many practical bits of advice are given as to ways in which people can respond to the need for the kind of childcare that you people are talking about.

- We're talking all about housekeepers.

- Are they talking about housekeepers?

- And there were people who got them and hey talk about a grandmother types. We've seen a lot of this recently, a very interesting public television show on the subject of grandmothers who were taking each day to a center, a hospital for children who are crippled or who had problems of one kind or another. and the beautiful relationship that's growing up between these two people, both of whom with great needs. And of course, again from a strictly practical point of view, it has taken a great many people, giving them a new sense of worth, taking them off welfare roles, giving them somebody to love and somebody who loves them, and such a kind of a beautiful arrangement. We had talked about mothers folds and about various kinds of camps and supervised tours. And I talked about the husbands,

- Student salsa if you're in the university.

- Right, and vacation in high school and college students. The whole thing, as we've heard from so many people, the important thing of course, is that both the father and the mother have the time to give really quality attention to their children and rather than just how much time.

- Right. And this is what I find that I'm much more focused now, that because time is limited, the weekends, for instance I set aside and most of the time we try to make the environment and we plan specific activities. And I find that time management is very, very important that I don't have as much social life, but then a lot of that is taken care of in terms of my work. But I have to find time for Don's and my relationship and spending time together there and then definitely giving the children focused and concentrated attention so that I don't feel that they're getting slighted.

- Let me interrupt briefly right here. We'd like to invite anyone in the audience to call in questions or comments. The phone number here is 4530. 4530. When I mentioned housekeepers, I was thinking about the fact that I don't think it's possible, at least it isn't for me to continue as the woman, did an example, to have a job and then continue to keep her household running immaculately and efficiently. I think it's very, very important, at least it has been for me, to have someone come in and clean once a week. I know that some people in the feminist movement feel that we shouldn't be hiring other women to do your dirty work, you know. And I really can understand that, but at the same time, I can't work unless I have this task taken care of because I don't have the energy to do both. And I would rather pay someone else. And it doesn't have to be a woman, a salary, you know, of some sort to have this job done but I can't keep... I'm just not superwoman. I thought I was at one time, but I can't keep it all going. So I think it's really important.

- And that wouldn't bother me in the slightest because I don't consider it my dirty work that I don't want to do. If I had time enough, I would enjoy...

- I can't say...

- But I do think it's a question of allowing everybody to make a decent living, and for those who have made this their work, to deny it on the grounds that is somebody else's dirty work, we could say that about all aspects of our work that were less interesting to us than something else 'cause I also don't think that housework is entirely the work of a woman. Obviously it's a work of everybody who lives in the family to the extent that is possible. Incidentally, you're talking about the age of your children. I'm deeply interested in camping, and one of the things I've noticed in every camping book is that they were pointing out how important it is that everybody have a job, no matter how simple it is. Even a three-year-old, there are things she can do. May break a few dishes when taking from one room to the next, but it's probably worth it.

- No I agree with you. I just meant that could really take the burden off of me.

- Yes.

- An interesting anecdote, I'd say, about how culture has changed is that we were talking about a housekeeper at home. And my eight year old daughter asked me, very seriously, if I would consider having a male housekeeper if anyone applied. And she was very antagonistic, eager that I should say yes, of course, which I was able to say.

- Eight years old.

- Well they have service organizations are becoming quite common. In one section of the book that deals with working for yourself, which is of course not an unmixed blessing, they talk about franchises and about small businesses and about service kinds of things that can be done. Certainly one of the coming ones that you find out in every city, and I believe we have them right here in Lawrence are commercial groups that come and do all these things in the home. So there's no longer a question of the generalist but they're bringing in a number of specialists who sweep the house and in a very short time, the whole thing is cleaned again. Which incidentally is an idea for a woman who would be interested in that kind of thing to establish such a business.

- It sounds like a good idea.

- I just liked to add a comment that, as Casey was commenting earlier students are a very good source or have been for me. I've advertised in the local paper for a housekeeper and my two children are in school. And so I found remarkably good help from KU with girls who come after school until I get home from work and they take very good care of the children and the house for just a few hours a day.

- And it's been helpful to them too financially.

- Yes. And it's time they have to spare, it's not too much time for them.

- So your part-time job is paying a part-time job for someone else.

- I think one of the beauties of this book is that it really does get kind of down to earth on the real practical aspects of how to go about, you know, how to start thinking of yourself and how to really, you know, start at the very base level. I think maybe you two would wanna give your own experiences about this, but the time factor, they give, I think a very good discussion about how you actually figure out how much time you need to do certain things and what kinds of things you can give up and how to go about finding that out. One thing that they mentioned that I can remember is one suggestion is that to keep a log, like for a week keep a very accurate log of exactly what you do and how much time it takes including things like how much time it takes you to find the ammonia bottle that your husband left in the garage and put it back where it's supposed to be.

- Very intricate and time consuming, I mean it is. And how much time it took do the lawn.

- The advantage of the log is it that most of us really can't say how we spend our time and until we put it down, it's like looking at how you're spending your money.

- Right.

- You may just know that you don't have very much left and say such things as I wonder what happened to it, you know, where did it all go? And which we also say about time. And the amount of time that it takes to do a log for a couple of weeks, I think would be quite revealing, and that the advantage that the book points out is that then you can decide which ones of those things you'd be willing to give up. How many of the coffee klatches and how many conversations with neighbors are perhaps some of your reading or whatever it is that you're putting in time and on, since you have been using, since we all use 24 hours a day. Obviously if you're going to do something you haven't been doing before, you either have to do things more efficiently, or you have to give up some of the things you've been doing before. But the authors claim, that in the process of doing this that many women in sitting priorities for themselves have found out that they were putting in quite a bit of time doing some things they didn't want to do anyway. And that if, for example, you're doing your own laundry and that isn't one of your great loves, just even sending your laundry out can make a great deal of difference in the amount of time that it takes and free you something that you didn't wanna anyway.

- Even it makes it possible to even do that. When you do have a job to compensate...

- It does call your values into question then. And that, again, is a valuable process.

- They really urge against any kind of wishful thinking. That just somehow it'll all work out.

- Oh yes.

- And without sitting down and figuring it out, without recognizing the points you made, of how your doing something different will affect your family, your husband, your children, your other relatives. Remember there are a lot of people who do go to work are also taking care in one way or another, of a relative other than those in the immediate nuclear family. The woman, for instance, who has been accustomed to stopping in every afternoon to shore up a friend, or a relative who comes to depend upon this, that some accommodation has to be made. 'Cause she may find out... The person who has been this dependent person may find out that she too is better off. And it also gives the woman who is engaging in this process a good practice for the future, to make sure that she never becomes that dependent woman who's expecting somebody to call and give her emotional shoring up everyday.

- Or she may be hired to do that kind of reinforcing and counseling and human relations work that does need to be done and she may be someone who can do to it very well.

- Because of experience.

- Yes.

- Previous experience.

- To get back to your point, though, for just a moment about a woman needing to be concerned about how she spends her time and needing to be somewhat organized as she goes into her job. I think on the other hand, getting ready to take a job can sound more overwhelming than it is. I found that I panicked in how I was going to make all these preparations and get ready to leave the home. And I found that actually a morning, maybe two mornings, got much of the major preparation decisions out of the way once I sat down and really worked out.

- It's true.

- It's true, 'cause when they talk about the analysis, the situation I think they're not talking about taking six months in order to put off a decision making process, but to sit down and do it.

- But I don't think, we should kid ourselves. I think I have found that now I live a very complicated life. I mean, it wasn't uncomplicated before but in terms of scheduling and time and energy and pacing myself. Another thing is energy. I'm not 22 anymore and the maturity factor is there and on one side it's a very strong point on another side, I don't have as much energy as I had when I was 22. And consequently, I don't want my family to always get just the drags of my energy. And also when I know I have a 10-month job or a 12-months job, I know I got that far to go and it's a long race. So I've gotta pace myself, otherwise, I have been the kind of personality. and this comes in your assessment of yourself, that I'll blow everything, you know. I'll give the full energy value the first month or so and then I don't have anything left, I can't make it. And so it's been a very good process for me learning to pace myself and to not waste energy. And this has been very important for me to learn.

- I think you're right. I do think, though, that I wouldn't associate that with your advanced stage.

- Well maybe I'm getting smarter though. I think energy levels differ greatly.

- Yes, oh, yes I know that.

- The man who was the director... Who is the director of this project, I was mentioning, of The Grandmothers and the Handicap Children is 81. I think that's just delightful, because of the things that so many women who are just going back to school for additional training, which may be of course, one of the things that the woman decides. We have 8 million women in the United States today who have had a partial college education. We also have the dreadful statistics from the past which have improved somewhat but not greatly. Many women, a very high percentage of the best qualified high school women who don't go on for any further college training at all. And it's about these women that this book is talking to. Not that they have to be college graduate, but rather they're talking about brainwork. And one of the fears that women so often have is that all their skills are so rusty and how in the world are they going to compete in a classroom and all the rest and the kind of information that's been that's been given us through the psychology of learning has led us to believe, I think, sometimes that the level of ability to learn goes down rather sharply with advancing age, and aside from senility, you know, this is really.

- No I don't...

- If Oliver Wendell Holmes, justice Holmes, could learn a new language at 92 and if John Dewey could become a father at that time and I don't mean just physically, but could rear a child, I think that there's no great evidence that... but this is so very, very gradual that it didn't even bother anyone.

- Yes. And I wasn't really talking about lacking the energy to do the job but really my own knowledge of myself which is that I wast energy.

- Which you probably would do if you were just in a home situation, the expenditure of energy.

- And that made me to the point of women, the boredom and the frustration, sometimes, of the home life creates a great energy loss and problems and all, because there is no focus. There's no way to keep all that energy. That ability, that talent gets all bottled up and there's no place for it to go. And if it has a focus then it seems to me, at least it feels with me that there's a flow and that that's much healthier.

- You know, all this has been mentioned several times by one or another of us. I think it's worth saying again, that I was talking a little bit about why is it that so many people, so many women find it so difficult to face up to frustrations and boredom, who feel that this is somehow wrong for them to be bored or frustrated, and who therefore become the apologists for the educated housewife, who does not do make any user for talents outside of the home? Haven't you ran across that, of people saying, you know what is wrong with the woman who doesn't find her husband and children a sufficient life for herself?

- You hear it frequently. I think it's a matter of conditioning and propaganda that we've..

- That's more of what articulated earlier, that that's the kind of feeling that you had. You know your first twinge of guilt was questioning, you know, why do I feel this way

- Oh, yes, yes, yes.

- And it's because of you've heard other people say that and you had that kind of thing put on you.

- Yes. And I'm not even sure where I absorbed it from, you know, but I think I carried part of that guilt because of the fact that a career is very important to me. And its also is very important that my family is happy. And so I have to balance both of those.

- I was on a panel once a couple of years ago, where a young woman who was doing great many things with her life and who had two children, who, according to my observation were doing very well, who was accosted after the programing publicly by a woman in the audience, who simply told her she was a bad mother, for no better reason. She didn't know her, she didn't know her children. So, for no better reason than that, she had expressed her lack of complete fulfillment with just the child-rearing and family situation. And I would maintain that the woman who makes such an attack has not analyzed herself or analyzed anybody else for that matter, or the situation. Has not yet been able to bring herself to see that these things should be matters of choice. And that if, to her, this is a totally satisfying life, as of course it is to many people during certain periods of their life. But we were sold in the 1950's had a notion that somehow rather... Which simply didn't give any cognizance to the fact that children do grow up and that one cannot, no matter how much you may want to, for the entire span of a very long lifetime, that the average American woman has played this this mothering role.

- We don't have too much time left. I wanted to discuss, very briefly, one of the last chapters. Talked about three different kinds of jobs that take into consideration a part-time worker. And that was the paired job, the split-level job and the split-location job. Kayla, could you maybe analyze or explain what those three terms mean?

- The paired job is one that probably the first experiments were made with teachers. Because there you had two people with comparable background and training who simply agreed to share a job and the school board and the school authorities agreed to let them do it. It was the most obvious of all things. For instance, even in the elementary teacher who has... Every elementary teacher does not have the same set of skills. One of the may be much better at teaching mathematics, for instance another one better at teaching linguistic skills. The children in a classroom, of course, could profit from their relationship with two different personalities. And one of them simply came in the morning and one came the afternoon. The school board saved money. They would paying each one of them half salary. And I think it was rather unfortunate, although it is true that there are some real financial advantages there's one disadvantage and it's in social security because they, of course, since you pay on a maximum of 10,800, if you're a $12,000 job divided into two $6,000 jobs would require a greater expenditure for social security, but in all other ways, in insurance program, every other kind of fringe benefit that you can think of everybody profited from that kind of a paired arrangement but it does require equal skills.

- You would probably completely do away with the idea of substitute teachers and having to...

- That's right. You could fill in for one another. If somebody is sick, the other one helps her out. And then when it's the country's situation. Also if there's a family problem or a child of one of them is ill, it makes it possible for them to do away with concept completely of the substitute teacher. The split-level job means the job has been set up that requires two different levels of ability. And there, it's also pretty obvious that they've one level of ability that's required is rather high and then that doesn't take all the time, however, but there's other kinds of work that needs to be done, the same woman is doing it. The feeling put upon when she's doing work beneath her level of ability. And if it's the other way around. of course, a lower level of ability, then they can't do a higher level job. And the split location job. The Conde Nast, the publications, were the first to experiment with this and they've done a beautiful job. It means that if it's a job that can be... If it's intellectual piece work like writing, that part of it can be done at the office and part of it can be done at home, or the librarians work where part of it would be in public relations dealing with the public, part of it is in ordering books and knowing what new things we're on the market, and where she doesn't have to be in exactly the same location to do it. These are some of the kinds of things with Catalysts is experimented with.

- one last idea that I would like to just put in very quickly is the idea that these kinds of jobs will, I believe open up many doors to a paired job or split-level or split-location job between a husband and a wife.

- That's the point I wanted to make.

- I wish we had more time, we could talk about that and its implications.

- I think we should also have a program on one of the chapters, which we haven't touched on upon at all. what they call Professionals Without Pay. If in the lineup of the hierarchy of values, the money is not important at all, either in terms of one's self respect or what have you, and after all money has been very much tied up with the idea of professionalism and that there is a place for this kind of a volunteer, but it is very, very different from what we usually think of in terms of the volunteer.

- We're running out of time now. I'd like to thank those of you that tuned in tonight and thank our guests for coming. Next week's program will be called Black Women And The Women's Movement. Thank you again for tuning in to "A Feminist Perspective."

- Listen again next Monday at seven for "A Feminist Perspective." Presented in cooperation with the office of the Dean of women at the University of Kansas.