- Good evening and welcome to 'A Feminist Perspective'. I'm Linda Jones, Assistant Dean of Women, substituting as moderator this evening for Dr. Emily Taylor, the Dean of Women, who cannot be with us tonight. 'A Feminist Perspective' is a weekly radio broadcast, sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center a program and information service of the Dean of Women's Office, 222 Strong Hall. Tonight's broadcast is 'Two Career Marriage'. This evening we have three men with us who will be talking about their views of a two career marriage, as the second part in this series. Last week their wives appeared on the program and you may have heard their discussion then. 'A Feminist Perspective' provides a forum for women themselves to speak publicly on issues of concern to them and helps inform other women and men of the movement, which is remaking the shape and substance of women's and men's lives. The Women's Resource and Career Planning Center contains large amounts of information: news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, and books pertaining to the many aspects of the Women's Movement. We would like to invite you to come in and browse or take advantage of the materials and services which we provide. That's in 222 Strong Hall at the University of Kansas. Well, good evening, gentlemen. Tonight we have with us three men who are one half each of a two career marriage. We have Dr. Walter Smith, who is a university administrator as is his wife, Caryl Smith, also a PhD. We have Rex Crick, whose wife Golda was on the program and Dr. Paul Gilles, whose wife, Dr. Helen Gilles was on the program last week. Would each of you tell us a little bit about what you do here at the university, as well as what kind of a career or involvement your wives have? Walter? - I'm Associate Dean of Women. And in that capacity, I work primarily with the residence halls and in academic advising through Pearson College and with the Commission on the Status of Women, primarily with the Careers Committee of the Commission. My wife is also an Associate Dean of Women and works with some of the same kind of programs, residence, halls, commission, and so forth. And I should mention here that I didn't hear last week's tape, so my answers are not pre-rehearsed or supposed to necessarily, would agree with what my wife said last week. - That was my first question- if you'd heard the tapes or not. Rex, would you like to tell us what you do? - Yes, I'm a graduate student in Geology. I'm a research assistant at the Kansas Geological Survey, and Golda, as you know, is a PhD student in Curriculum and Development in Education and she also administers the Bailey Hall Library, Curriculum Library. - Mmm hmm, and did you listen to the program last week? - No, but Golda did bring home some questions and we went over them briefly. - You rehearsed! - Okay, and Paul, what about you? I am a chemist. I have participated in the teaching activities with the freshmen, seniors, graduate students and postdoctoral research associates in the department. Our research activities are in high temperature chemistry and the use of small digital computers, not as calculators but rather as parts of experimental apparatus. My wife Helen is a pediatrician. She is currently President of the School Board, United School District 497. - Okay, and did you listen to the program last Monday night? - No, I did not. - Well, we have three people whose ideas will be their own without the direct influence of knowing what their wives have said. First of all, do you have any general comments about your wives' reactions to the program or anything that they shared with you? - Not really. I was pretty careful to try not to talk about it so that we wouldn't be biased. - Okay, well, we'll go right on from there. One of the main things I think, in having a two career marriage, being part of a two career family, would be how you came to that decision in terms of, if this was a conscious thing, when you first realized that you were interested in getting married or, you know if it evolved and I'd like to hear a little bit from each of you on how you came to find both of yourselves involved in separate careers. - Oh, perhaps I can go back and give a little history. I guess when I was about high school, I assumed that whoever I married would stay at home and take care of the kids up until, oh the kids were in high school maybe. And by the time I was an undergraduate, I thought, well maybe she could go back to work about, oh, by the time the kids got to school. And then when I got married, I married a woman who was my boss, so to speak. She was a Director of a residence hall and I was a Resident Assistant in that hall. So I certainly knew very much that she had worked, had worked professionally and planned to work professionally. So at that point, I, at the time of the decision to get married, I was, if not a conscious talked out decision, that both of us would be working, we were certainly both aware that we were professional people. - Okay, Rex? - Well, I had always intended on being, you know, a professional, and, but I realized, you know Golda has her own career. She's an individual. And there was never really any question, There's never really any discussion, it was just more or less assumed. Then she did get out of school, and she taught for awhile, an elementary school in Barnes. But I think the level at which she was educated and then being around the university, stimulated her to go back to school and it is, greatly helped understanding, and also in the point of studying, I mean she now has studies to deal with. Before she didn't, you know and she wanted to do things when I wanted to study but now, it - Okay, Paul? - I was educated as a chemist. My wife was educated as a physician. It was quite natural that both of us would continue in professional activities. My own mother taught, essentially for her entire lifetime, so I was not raised with the prejudice against the working woman. - Mmm hmm, okay. What about the other of you two? Did you have parents who worked or came from more, what we tend to think of as traditional backgrounds where the mother did not and stayed at home? - I think that's a pretty important influence because my mom was a nurse until the time that I was in about junior high school, she didn't work. And then about that time, she went back to work and perhaps that's why when I was in high school, I thought, well, that was a fairly nice pattern to fit into. My wife's parents are both professors at Kent State, then of course, she had a different kind of a role model. And it was just the opposite. In my case, my mother was always a housewife and my father was the, I guess what you would say, the breadwinner of the family. But, it just seems today, that's there's, that that's kind of a, a negative thing. And not, it's not that it's bad to be a housewife, it's just that there's so much other things to do that, I can't see it. If I, myself, if I was home, and I couldn't see staying around the house all day and cleaning, and watching the television program, I think I would go totally out of my mind if I had to do that. - So you didn't expect that of her? - Oh no, not at all. - Okay. - Well, I think I disagree here a little bit. I don't think necessarily that it's a negative, approach to life for women to want not to work. One of the features of education is that it gives each person a wider choice of what that person can do. And if a girl wishes her education and then wishes to use it only in the home and in volunteer activities, that it seems to me is a choice, she's perfectly free to make and she ought to do what she wishes to do. - Okay, I agree with you in that respect but what I meant is, you know, she's gonna have other outside activities, like you say, volunteer organizations and things like that. This was just never, as far as our marriage, it was just assumed that this, you know, we'd both have our own professional careers. - Well, I think the important thing here is what you said in choice and that she be free to make the decision to what she would like to do with her life. Whether it be a career, whether it be to stay at home or whether it be a combination of both, as either part-time job or working for a while, and then not working, or maybe going to work or never going to work. And as long as, you know, I think what you're saying is that it's okay with you, whatever she wants to do. And you think each woman be able to do that. - That's right. - Well, I certainly agree with you on that point. And one thing in talking about the home, and working or staying at home, whatever, since all of you have wives who do work, have full time commitments, in terms of, you know, the professional realm, how did you work out handling the household? Did you sit down or how were the decisions made about who was going to do what involved with just keeping up the household? Walter you're laughing. - I was just, just thinking of, when we come home at night, I'm usually the hungrier of the two, and so I was always pretty interested in getting supper on the table. And I dunno if that's exactly how it happened but some way or other, I ended up doing most of the evening cooking at home, at least during the week. So at least in that respect, it wasn't a conscious decision. It was just that, I'm hungrier. - So you didn't sit down and say, "All right, I'm going to do the cooking and you Caryl will do the laundry." It wasn't one of, something like that? - No, and also I think that we were talking about the role model before and in my own family's case, when my mom was being a nurse and my dad was a school teacher and school administrator, he would often get home earlier than my mother would and would do the cooking. - Mmm hmm. - So it seemed pretty natural to me. - Uh huh? Were some other parts of it, of running the household, for you, something that you kind of both do? Like maybe one week you'll do the vacuuming and the next week Caryl will, or, you know does it work out that you have given yourselves specific tasks that are yours? - No, I don't think there's any trade-off like that. When it comes time to do cleaning, we usually do it together. When we do the laundry, we usually do it together. I really dislike ironing and I haven't done that at all. Usually I like to work with figures a little more so I keep the checkbook pretty much. - Well, how do you think this arrangement has worked out for you? Think it's an even share of the work for both of you? - I think so. I haven't added up the number of hours that each of us put in and that sort of thing, but you know, some weeks she's busier than I and vice versa. So we just try to balance things out. - Okay, Rex, what about you? How has it worked out? - Well, I don't know. It just evolved. There was never any, except for Golda does, I would say, at least 90% of the cooking, because she is a very good cook and I haven't developed those skills. The cleaning, things like that, it's just whoever gets to it first. I mean, if I happen to be home and I have some free time and it needs to be done, I do it, or I do the washing or it just, it seems like whoever gets to it. If it's more or less a heavier type thing like maybe washing and scrubbing the floor, I would do that instead of her. And- - And what about something like grocery shopping? - We do it together. We usually always do it together. It's just a thing we do together. It's not necessary, but we just- - Mmm hmm. - because I mean, someone to carry the groceries out to the car or I'd carry them in, but we just kind of do it together. - Okay, and how do you think this has worked out for you? Do you think it's a- - Well, it's, - Useful thing? - I probably profit more by it, because she also takes care of the finances and that leaves me even freer to concentrate on school or whatever I'm doing. So I would say that I probably profit by it more than she does. - Do you think she feels that way or have you talked about it? - We've discussed it and I don't think she feels that way. She likes to do it and it's just like, I take care of the automobiles and things like that. And I enjoy doing that, so I think she enjoys doing the financial stuff and she enjoys cooking. So I think, on that basis, it's probably an even trade off. - Okay, what about you? - Our situation is different, of course. Ever since the days that, since we move from Sunnyside, we've had help in the home, always on a part-time basis. The people whom we hire, do much of the cleaning; They formerly did much of the dishes but now we have a dishwasher that takes care of that. Currently my wife's mother is with us. Though she's now 91 or 92, she demands her place in the kitchen, taking care of the cleaning up after the meals, and that's a very great help. You know, it relieves both of us from that kind of activity. I suppose we could put it rather brutally. My wife does the cooking and I bring in the newspapers. As far as shopping is concerned, my wife normally does that, but I can push a cart really very effectively, and, matter of fact, I enjoy going grocery shopping with her. She usually does most of the grocery shopping on the way home from the office. - Mmm hmm. - I take care of most of the automobile problems as Rex has indicated he does. - I see. And do you think that this is an even trade-off or does it work for you? - I'll be glad to answer the question, if you'll tell me what you mean by an even trade off. - Well, I think what I'm trying to say by that, is that, you feel that by the things that you do, you give her enough free time to do the things that she would like, and in the same, even trade off vein, that what she does give you enough time to do some extra things that you enjoy. - Oh, I think I can answer yes to that. Of course, most, the way we work it out, most of the household chores are accomplished by my wife. - Mmm hmm. - She enjoys cooking. She does a splendid job of it. I know how to wash dishes. I learned that at home. I haven't done, from my mother. - Mmm hmm. - I have not learned, I have not done very much of it, in our home. From my point of view, it's very satisfactory. - Well, that's good to hear. Sounds like all of you- - What did she say in response to that? - We have the tape! We can play it back right afterwards. - I think I'll let you ask her. No, I think everyone pretty much agreed on that. Now in the home, we've talked about lots of different things. We haven't mentioned one small item, that being children. For some of the listeners who might not have been listening last Monday night, I'd like each of you to say if you do have children and how that happened, in terms of: did you come to the decision to have children at a specific time in your careers? Or, you know, how did the whole thing evolve? - Well, we have one son who's five years old now and he attends Hilltop Daycare Center here on campus, which I think is just an excellent thing for him. We were talking before about the, whether the wife should be working and that sort of thing. It seems to me, that from Hilltop, that and other kinds of daycare situations that perhaps he's had a better learning experience in his preschool years than what he might've had, had he been at home, but that isn't really answering your question. You want to know how it, how we happened to come to this decision? Well, I can't say that we sat down and decided, well now's the time to have kids. My, we had been using birth control methods and certainly we made a decision not to use them. And of course then we realized that that was, made it possible for us to have kids then. So I can't say that we had decided that this was the time to have a child but we certainly decided that, we're getting kind of that, at that point in our life. And yes, there was a very conscious decision about children. It wasn't just by accident or anything like that. - Okay, what about you, Rex? - I think, we don't have any children, and the reason is, I think mainly, you know, we'd like to finish our careers first or maybe plan it so that we will have a child just prior to leaving Lawrence. And it's purely a professional decision, in context with our professional goals, if you will. - Mmm hmm. - We just don't have the time right now to devote to a child. - And we were in a very similar situation. We went through most of our graduate training and then went to Cincinnati. And when we got there, Caryl worked for awhile and then we decided, well, now it is time to start having a family. - Have you discussed possibility of children in the future? - Oh, definitely. - And have you planned to have children or- - Certainly, yeah. But it's just, we feel it wouldn't be in the child's best interest right now. - Mmm hmm. - You know, with school and the pressure of both our professional growth and the child's development. - Okay, what about you? - Nothing would have upset our plan so much as to have a child, when I was a graduate student, when my wife was a medical school student or an intern or a resident. We wanted, when we wanted childs, children, we planned them, and it worked. Now, my wife has not worked full-time, all the time that we've been in Lawrence, and only recently has she been working full time. I think in connection with the care of the children, it ought to be pointed out, that the quality of care and the quality of time that is expended with the children, may well be much more important than the quantity of time. And for my wife, working professionally as she does, she finds herself in a position in which she has emotional outlet in her work. She has emotional outlet at home. She's a much more contented person when she's at home than she would be were she not working. - Mmm hmm. - So from the point of view of quality experience for our children, it's a great thing when my wife works. - Okay, that brings up an interesting point in that I've heard many people say, "Well, when you have a baby, the wife should really stay home for at least a couple of years because so much of the influence of those early years will shape the life of that child that exposing him or her to daycare centers, and to a variety of people will only confuse a child or be detrimental to the shaping of the child's character, or whatever." And obviously you disagree with this. I wonder what some of the rest of you think about that? - Well, I certainly don't have any pat answer to that. My wife was at home with our son for about the first year and a half of his life. And I think that that was a very good situation. And I think she enjoyed the opportunity not to work for awhile too, and enjoyed the kind of things that she was doing around the home. On the other hand, I think that the child, the daycare situation is very good. In our case, we have only one child. I think he's had just an awful lot of opportunity to be with with other kids and learn how to interact with other people that he wouldn't have had, had he been at home by himself. - Okay, how did you come to the decision or what happened where your wife stayed home for 18 months after the baby was born? - I have a facetious answer to that. The first part of our marriage, Caryl was the primary breadwinner and I wasn't, and I thought it was kind of time to even things up and in order to do that, she had to get out of the job market for awhile. It just seems very natural to us, for her. I was teaching and we could afford to live without one income, so it seemed very possible for her to stay at home and a very nice thing to do. - And she wanted to? - Well, I think so, mmm hmm. - I think there's another aspect to this it's worthwhile pointing out. If the wife is working, then the husband has a better opportunity to be a real part of the life of the children. - Mmm hmm. I think that's a, I think that's a very interesting point and from what, I'm a single person, but from what experience I've seen with friends who are married and have two career marriages, I certainly agree with it. You know, I've seen evidence to support it that the child tends to know both parents better and you know, spends, like you say, more quality time with them. You know, that's my view on it. To change the subject a little bit, what effect do you feel being a part of a two career marriage has had on your own individual career? In terms of thinking traditionally, your wife is not playing that traditional role of being at home and being able to be the social hostess full time, as well as to be the main support for you, and having that as the only thing or the most important thing in her life. And what do you think this has done to your career? If you were not married, would you perhaps be elsewhere or doing something different than you are? - I think there are two aspects on the positive side and perhaps one on the negative side. For a woman who is, engaged in a career, a considerable amount of her energy goes into that. And hence, she makes less demands on her husband, I think, for extraneous activities. And hence, he can devote more of his efforts to his professional life. The second aspect, in our own case is that my wife's activities in medicine, have given me an opportunity to see a much broader range of life than I possibly could in my own activities. That has what has kept me out of the ivory tower. - Mmm hmm. - In a sense, the negative aspect is, that if both people are working, the mobility of the family is substantially diminished. Because if both wish to continue to work then they both need to find occupations in the same location. - Do you feel that that has hindered your career? - No, not at all. - Who, how was the decision made to come back to Lawrence? - Oh, that was easy. - Who was offered the job or, you know, how did it happen? - My wife's notion was that she was going into private practice. - Mmm hmm. - A physician can go into private practice in many places. The opportunity to come to the University of Kansas came to me. We considered it carefully. We knew that our children, then yet unborn, we thought at least, they would be raised in a more wholesome environment in Kansas than in Berkeley, where we then were. So everything fit together nicely and we returned to Lawrence. - Okay. Rex, do you have some comment on that, on how it's affected your career? I think, for myself, being a graduate student, is probably, hindered me but not in a negative, hinder's a bad word, but I'm trying to say that I would spend more time in the lab. I'd probably spend more time in the library. However, it might've been counterproductive. I mean, it might've been to that point. It's made me a more aware, more whole person, I think. 'Cause I get her views on things and her outlooks. So, in a way I don't develop things to the point I'd like to maybe in school but I still attain the level that's desired. It's just that, I feel like I put more into it than I do but that's just because I like what I do. It's just like anything, you know? - Mmm hmm. - You take a kid to a candy store, he'll take, he'll always want more than one piece of candy even though he doesn't really need it. - Walter, what about you? - Well, I'm sure it has an effect on our career. It certainly, I'm not going to have the opportunity now or whenever I'd want to take the opportunity to say: "Well, Caryl, we're going to go to X town or X university now because I have a job there." I can't just order her around like that. We both have to be thinking about, what our career possibilities are. So as we go through these kinds of decisions, it's, it was difficult when we were looking for jobs a couple of years ago and came to the University of Kansas. And if we would be looking for jobs again in the future, I'm sure that that'll be a difficult thing. On the other hand, it is nice to have the economic security that I'm not the only breadwinner in the family, and if anything would happen to me, she could continue on with the economic support of our family. So there's, that's a nice insurance policy, so to speak. - Mmm hmm. We have just a very few moments remaining, but I did want to check and see if any of you feel that this, the aspects of the two careers have had any effect on you maintaining your own individuality, both as people in your profession and as human individuals, as men? - Positive effect. - That's good. - I think so. I think it's that, - Like I said, it makes me more of an aware individual. It has no adverse effect on me. - I would say that the effects are positive. I'm almost sure that I would be doing something a little bit different if I weren't married right now, because of the kind of considerations that my wife and I have had to take into account, in order to, both of us, pursue professional, lines of endeavor. So it has had an effect on us. - Okay, well, this evening we've talked about a two career marriage from the point of view of the husband and we've covered lots of different areas and topics, and I'm sure that our three participants are going to go home and now double check with their wives and see what they said. There were very many similarities. A couple of things- - But I gotta note here, that says that's not what Caryl said! - A couple of differences. So I think we've talked about lots of important things. Among them, the decision making process, and how people got to be in this situation, of being part of a two career marriage. In talking about the home, it seems to be that just the maintenance of a household somehow comes out so that each of the individuals does compensatory work for the other, so that both parties seem to feel pretty secure and pretty satisfied with that arrangement. In terms of thinking about children, this also seems to be an area where careful thought and consideration has been given and where the parents seem to feel that, what they have chosen, in terms of their career will have a positive effect on the lifestyle. We would like to thank you for joining us, each of you three, for 'A Feminist Perspective', as well as to the listening audience and encourage you to tune in next Monday night when we will, again broadcast 'A Feminist Perspective'. Good evening - Was played by Cliff Waldron And The New Shades Of Grass. That just about does it for our shortened edition of 'Bluegrass Tonight'. We have a basketball game coming up very shortly here on K-A-N-U, and because of that, we'll be getting out of here now and inviting you to join me next week at seven o'clock on K-A-N-U, when Bluegrass will return. Until that time, this is Dan Curry saying, have a good week and remind me next week to tell you about some very exciting things in the way of bluegrass music that are going to be happening here at the University of Kansas. I'll try to remember to do that. And we have plenty of time for me to remind you of it so you won't miss it. So we'll try get that done next week and listen to some more bluegrass music as well. Until next week at seven o'clock. This is Dan Curry saying so long. - Good evening. Welcome to 'A Feminist Perspective'. These weekly programs are brought to you by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, a service and information center located in the Dean of Women's Office at the University of Kansas. That's in 222 Strong Hall. We invite you all to visit us, or to call, or make use of the services that we offer. Tonight, our discussion will be about two career families, and we have the female side of three two career families represented here tonight. Next Monday night we'll have the three husbands. Our three women are Dr. Helen Gilles, who is a medical doctor. Her husband who will be with us next week, Dr. Paul Gilles, is a Professor of Chemistry. Dr. Caryl Smith is here tonight. Her husband, Dr. Walter Smith, will be with us next week. Both of these people are in university administration. And our third couple, Golda Crick, who is here tonight, who is now a graduate student at the PhD level, in the School of Education and her husband, Rex Crick, who's a paleontologist, still in training. Is that correct? As I think most everyone knows now, a very large percentage of American families have both a working husband and working wife. Approximately 40% now of all families. Now, these aren't necessarily all two career families and we'll need to talk about that in a little bit, but they are at least working couples at some time during the year. And perhaps we'll have something to gain from listening to what our panelists say tonight about the kinds of ways in which they went about solving problems or failing to solve problems as they see fit to tell us. So let's start out by asking all three of you to comment on when you first became a two career family. Caryl, do you want to start? - I suppose we were a two career family from before the time that we were married. I had worked professionally in the same sort of work that I am doing now prior to the time that I met my future husband. And so that certainly my plans and my interest in remaining career active, were definitely a part of our plans from the time we decided that we would like to go on and become married and become legally affiliated with one another. So it's been a considerable period of time and it was always a part of our planning. - Mmm, hmm, well, how about you, Helen? - I guess always. We were married when I was a senior in medical school, and my husband was in graduate school and we had been planning on being married at this time for about a year, so naturally we had discussed the fact that we would be a two career family, and what sort of arrangements we'd make in so far as you can make plans ahead of time. We tried to do this and tried to think somewhat about what our life would be like as a two career marriage. When we were, when we got married in 1944, this was not quite as common as it is now. - Mmm hmm. How about you Golda? When did you first become, or plan to be? - We married as undergraduates and we started really our careers then, working part-time in our field. And then later on I worked full-time and went to graduate school part-time and my husband worked part-time and went to graduate school full time. Until the point where we are now, we hope that we'll be able to continue our two careers when we get done with school. - So actually among the three of you represented here, all of you intended to pursue a career as far back as you can remember, is that correct? - Mmm hmm. - Yes, that's correct. - Was there any time in your lives that you weren't thinking along those lines that you can remember? - Anytime in my personal life? - Mmm hmm. - Well, I'm not really sure. I certainly was professionally oriented, although I changed my professional orientation two or three times. - Were your parents professional people? - Yes, they were. Both my parents were college professors until the time they retired. - Mmm hmm. - So then I was certainly came from a two career family background. Although my mother was among the people in higher education, the women in higher education who suffered, as part of the nepotism rules that are now being dissipated throughout the country. - So it was a question of your father advancing in his field and your mother remaining at what level? Instructor or was she- - Yes. Well, she was at the instructor level. They were in the same department in that particular school. That was the problem. They were in the same department- - Mmm hmm. - but she still, nevertheless, worked all the time. - And Helen, in your case? Did you have this kind of model at home, or were both your- - No, certainly not. My folks, or my dad was a farmer. My mother fulfilled the role of the farm housewife which was, I'd say- it was a two career. She worked equally hard- - Mmm hmm. - you know, but it was in the home of course. - Mmm hmm. - And, but I decided when I was in high school that I'd go to medical school. So from the time Paul and I knew each other and started dating, I think we both assumed we'd have a two career marriage. - Incidentally, I think it's incidental. Someone told me the other day that many women who graduated from medical school did not practice medicine. Do you believe that to be true? - I don't know what the figures are. I'm sure some quit. I think of my class, of course there were only six or eight of us, I think most of us are still in practice. - Mmm hmm. It was in my impression from many statistics I'd read, of course both men and women occasionally change their mind after they've completed anything, but that there would be no greater percentage of women than of men, but I haven't seen the- - Yeah, I just don't know. - Mmm hmm. And, you Golda, did you, at any point in your life, think you were going to live a different kind of life? - I think that my freshmen and sophomore years, I was interested in being a housewife only, and then about my junior year in college, decided that I wanted to do something more- - Mmm hmm. - than just stay at home. - Now was this before or after you were married? - This was just before I got married my junior year in college. - Uh huh. All right, let's move into the question of, how you made decisions. And also if the manner in which you've made decisions on particular areas, appeals to you now, is something that you wish you'd done differently. For the benefit of others, who may be listening, feel free to say so, that that's not the way you'd do it again or not the way you would advise someone else, if you feel that way. First of all, there's a question of establishing a home. How'd you make the decision about where this home would be, where it would be located? What kind of a home, whether you live in a house which has lots more involved with it than in an apartment or was it just a question of finances or how did you make these decisions? Any of you could start. - Well, we lived in an apartment to begin with, and my husband is from a farm here in Kansas. And his family has lived in the same home for three generations. So to him, to buy a home, was like a homestead and he was dead set against buying a house. And it took me three years to convince him that economically, it's the smartest thing to do. - What was his objection now? - Well, he thought of a home as a homestead. And if you were going to buy a house, you would just remain in that house ad infinitum and your children would live in that same house, and he wasn't taking into effect the mobility that we will be involved in once we get done with school. - Mmm hmm. Now I should warn all of you, people that I'll ask these same questions of your husbands to see whether or not they remember the decision-making process in the same way. So you made the decision together that you would have an apartment, or was this your decision? - No, well, finances at first dictated an apartment. And we only had a bed and about three boxes of books and some clothes to our name when we got married. And then by the second year, we'd been thinking that a home would be a good investment. - Mmm hmm, now, and the, as I recall now, you said that you were both in school at the time this marriage took place? - Mmm hmm. - So the location of the home was determined by where you were in school, I take it? - Right. - Uh huh. How about you Helen? - Well, when we first came here, we lived in an apartment because we didn't have any money to do otherwise but since we had a child, and after a while were expecting another child, we realized we wanted to get a home. I think it was a joint decision. We're both very home and family oriented. It never occurred to us to live any place but to buy a home and to live in it I think. - So, both of you, and your husbands, had always lived in a house then somewhere, is that right? - Mmm hmm. - As children- - Right. - Right. - had grown up in a house? How about you Caryl? - Oh, yes, I think that we had both grown up living in houses. Although my family had been located in one community while I grew up and several houses, but one community and Walter's family had moved around a little. And so that was a somewhat different experience. We did have some unusual factors during some of the years of our marriage, because I was working in residence halls. Now that dictated where we lived to some extent. And sometimes we had some choices about where and under what sorts of arrangements. - But basically, that first decision, for all of you, was dictated more by circumstances than desire. - Right. - Yeah. - In my circumstance, by the job. - What if you, if that had not been a problem in any way, and you were, had been completely free to choose any kind of a home? Do you have an idea of what you would have advocated for the family? - Oh, - Would it have been a suburb in the middle of a city, a small town? - Oh, a city for me. - You would've chosen the city? - Yes. - And the inner part of it? - Probably, the inner part of the city. - Mmm hmm. - I had grown up in New York and did my undergraduate work at Boston University, so I was used to a city. I wasn't used to- - Mmm hmm. - country living. - But your husband was from a farm? - Mmm hmm. - Do you think he would've liked the city living? - Well, he lived in Boston for seven years, after finishing high school, so I think he was accustomed to city living after a while. Although he still had his boy hood memories about what a home should be. He had always lived in an apartment when we were in Boston. - Mmm hmm. - You both had- - The decision making process, in terms of where you're going to establish yourself, it was more difficult for us in terms of locale. And that is, if we would be available to go anywhere in the country or whether we wanted to stay in a particular area. We grew up in Ohio. Should we indeed try to stay in Ohio? I think that was a more difficult decision than suburbs / city, for us. - Mmm hmm. - Our decision to come to Lawrence was based on the fact that, we'd gone to school here. Then we went to California for Paul to do his graduate work, and I did my internship and residency out there. And we decided we really didn't want to bring up a family in a big urban area. And when Paul had his offer to come to KU, back to KU as, on the faculty, we decided this would be an excellent place to bring up a family. And since both our homes are in this location, we, you know, we were very pleased to be doing this. The reasons, in a way, for which we came back here, are the reasons why we've stayed. - Mmm hmm. Do you think that very many young couples, both of whom are career oriented, do, have a choice in the matter of where they live or to what extent do you feel they have a choice? Of course they have some choice in regard to- - Probably depends on the field they're in, doesn't it, as to how much choice they have? Right now, 'cause they're looking for academic positions, they don't have much choice. - Right. - They have to go where the job is- - Mmm hmm. - whether it's where they would pick as a location to live or not is, is something else. But they kind of have to go where the job is. - That'd be true in a lot of fields, wouldn't it? - Now, it wouldn't be true in medicine. - No? - If a couple were, say both of them were doctors, they could pretty much pick and choose and they can pick then the area in which they'd like to live. - Mmm hmm. How much, choice goal is there in your husband's field? Paleontology? - It changes all the time. If the oil companies are looking for people, then you sometimes have a good choice. Now that it's harder to find a job in a college or university, that choice there is limited. Sometimes it's very open and sometimes it's very closed. - I should think that would be an excellent field, right at the moment? With the energy crisis- - Oh, and the environmental concerns? - Yes! - They would be, that there also be lots of opportunities for research. - Yes, it's very good now. - I should think. Well, once you've established the home, this is, some kind of a home has got to be established after the couple gets married, and before any children come along, there is the question of: how do you make the decision about having children and what decisions did you make? - I can answer that. - Okay. - We made the decision to have our first child as soon as I'd finished my residency. And so our first child was born three weeks later. - That's good timing! - It was planned and it worked out fine. - How'd you do that? Now, wait a minute. You'd, that was the first one. And how many did you have? - We have three- - Uh huh. - and we knew we wanted about three and we also felt we wanted them fairly close together, so they would grow up together. And so we had between our first and third child, there's three years and three months interval with one in between. - So you, you and Paul, made the decisions as to how and when you wanted to have the children- - Yes. - and then carried out those decisions. - And it's worked out quite well. - Mmm hmm. Now, what about you Golda? You have any children? - Not yet. - Mmm hmm. - I think that we will probably wait about three years to have any children, until we're both done with school and maybe make one more move, or decide to stay here, whatever we do. I think we'd like to wait till we're done with school - Mmm hmm. So you're definitely not, when we talk about children, how many children do you have in mind? - Well, I'm due for twins on both sides of my family. So we'll have to see how we do the first time around! - If you have twins the first time, you may quit? - We might stop there! I'll keep you posted. - I think you might think seriously about quitting! - So the question of having a multiple birth is not within one's control yet, I take it? - Not yet! - How'd you decide Caryl? - Well, I think that we had been married, I believe it was just over three years when Russell was born. And so we had a thing that, my goodness, since I was at the time over 30, that probably we really shouldn't wait a lot longer. And actually it, we were, knew we were going to be in that city, for, at least there was the opportunity to be there, for a while longer. Walter was in a good job, and so we thought that'd be as good a time as we had encountered, since we had been going through the graduate school route that I would then plan to not work for a little while. And that's true. I, you know know, finished up my obligation with my job at the time, and Russell was born a month later and then I did not work until he was 16 months old when I went back to work full time. - And this was a, also a deliberate decision? - That I was out for 16 months? - Uh huh. - Right, it happened, that happens in all cases to coincide with the school year, you know, we're in. - So this was a definitely, planned arrangement- - Mmm hmm. - for the time that was convenient for you and for your husband- - Right. - and based partly upon your age, and- - Economic factors. - and the economic factors. - Uh huh. - Now- - We could afford for me not to work, you know, at that time. - Okay, do you have any comments to make on how often this decision, is that of the people who were involved in it? The decision to work or not to work after a child is born? - I think it depends on your career. I, after I had, our children were born, I went back to work fairly soon because medicine is not a field in which you can stay out for very long and stay up. You can always think, you know, that you're going to read journals and all this but I'm sure they don't have the meaning to you that it does to stay in practice and keep up that way. - Mmm hmm. - I would think in some cases there might well be economic factors that would send the mother back to work more quickly, or have to take just a very very short period of time off. And I, that's not hard to imagine for any of us. - Okay, so you have the economic factors. You also have the career factors- - Mmm hmm. - such as Helen brought out of the, of being in a career that you just can't afford to, you know sit out a few years without getting behind. There's a, there's also, of course, the kind of career person who really could drop out, although that has some disadvantages, of course, in terms of a logical, progression of the career. But, people who do have a choice, as far as a career is concerned, but may not have any choice as far as economic factors are concerned. I just think it's important to, we sometimes get the impression, I sometimes get the impression in listening to discussion that people feel that, as they discuss a particular issue in terms of whether they believe it is right or wrong that they act is if a decision is totally in the hands of the people who are making it. And this I question. - Mmm hmm. - I think there are times for example, if the father is, has had a very good job, but he's in a field- Well, look what happened to the aeronautical engineers- - Mmm hmm. - at one time Kind of a, one man I knew, he was making $65,000 a year, suddenly found himself with no dollars a year. And he had to take, of course, another job but so did his wife. Now, I doubt if she felt that she had a whole lot of choice. - That's right. - Regardless of the stresses, regardless of the number of children- - Right. - regardless of their individual circumstances- - You certainly just hope that for their benefit, that she had the background so that she could get a position that would be both worthwhile financially and satisfying personally. - Mmm hmm. - That's another reason why women either might not go back to their career after childbearing for awhile or that they might, either way, depending on the individual. And that would be the personal gratification and personal satisfaction that they derived or did not derive, from being at home or being in the home lifestyle. - Mmm hmm. - I think one of the things that we have to think about is: why do we have children? - Mmm hmm. - And if, I really do feel that there are many women who may consider that their career is more important than having children. And I, you know, I think we all hope that a woman who feels this way does not have children. - How, why did you decide to have children? Those, the two of you who had them? - Because we wanted them very much. - But do- - We talked about this before we got married. - Mmm hmm. - And this was, I think this was the one area maybe, of our greatest concern, in particularly Paul's greatest concern, that he wanted to be sure that I wanted children as much as he did. - Mmm hmm, but did, can you describe any more why, than just that you wanted them? I mean, I'm trying to think, is there really a reason that people want to have children? - It's part of our culture, I suppose, is the simplest way of answering it. You're kind of brought up to think that when you grow up even if you work, you'll get married and have children- - Mmm hmm. - and then kind of the two phrases that are added together. But I think, then it becomes a very personal thing that you want children because of what they're going to mean in your own marriage. And we'd been married three and a half years before our first one was born, and by that time we really wanted one. - Mmm hmm. - I think there's another factor that, I don't particularly mean this to be, sound egotistical, but I think that, we felt that we were interesting enough people and had enough outside interests in addition to our lives together that we had things we could share with a child. And we would have, we hoped that we would have the financial background, eventually, to be able to share a lot of the wonderful world around us with a child or children. And so that's, I think how we started thinking about just that, gee, this is something that, if we think we have something to offer, and we think in essence that we could be pretty decent parents. - But you brought a child into the world in order to make that offer. You could have done exactly the same thing with some other child. - That is true. - Yes, but there's something about, I think maybe we don't realize this until we have our first child. There was something very, at least to me, very biological and very biologically fulfilling in giving birth to a child and having a child that you and your husband had produced because of your love, and because of your feelings of wanting this child. - Mmm hmm. That's one of the better statements I've heard on the subject. So many times, we just stop by saying I wanted to, or I didn't want to, and I think sometimes, and the ones who say, who can't answer that question, they really didn't think about it. It was just the culture. - Well, I can remember when I, about the first time I saw our first one after he was born, having the feeling, of course, I'd been in a pediatric residency for two years at this time, and so I'd had a lot of growth and development, you know and been exposed to a lot of kids. I can remember my own feeling of, you know, I'm part of the continuity of mankind. - Mmm hmm. - Mmm hmm. - You know, it's going on through me, you know, I'm carrying it on, as I was brought forth. So we brought forth our child to help carry this on. - Mmm hmm. - That was a little easier - that way, perhaps in 1948. I still think, you know if I were young and having a child now, and I look at our children, who will someday be having children, I think they'll feel the same way. - Mmm hmm. - They will probably think more seriously about how many they're going to have- - Mmm hmm. - Although we thought seriously- - Mmm hmm. - about those two. - And planning too, I think. We planned ours. - Now, I remember- - Parenthood is nothing new! - Except that the plans do change quite a bit, don't they? - Oh yes! - I recall a situation in my home with a number of college students at one time, about 1959, where I asked them how many children they were planning to have. The smallest number anybody mentioned was three, and then it went up to nine. Now, today, I'm quite sure that one would get quite different answers. - You'll get one to four. - Mmm hmm. - And mostly it's two- - Now Golda, you haven't had any yet but you did indicate that you might in a few years. So do you have anything, any comment to make on how this decision is made? Why you want to have children or a child? - I think because we feel having a child brings all kinds of new experiences and that we'd like to share these kinds of experiences together as husband and wife and then to, together as husband and wife, being parents to a child. And I think you miss some of these kinds of experiences- - Mmm hmm. - if you don't have a child - Now, you know, we have very little time left, unfortunately. I would like to raise the question about what has, what kinds of decisions did this decision to have children add to your lives, as a two career family? What kinds of stresses did it bring about, or what kinds of, did it interfere in any way with the children's activities, with your career, with your husband's career? Or how would you define it? - Oh, I guess that I'm fairly certain that at sometimes, our busy lives, which includes career, somewhat impinge on what might be the normal mode for a child the age of ours. But my goodness, he seems to be a rather resilient fellow. And then, you know, I'm afraid that he probably has babysitters more often than I would particularly like during the course of the school year. But I think that we try to make the time that we are together very valuable. I don't know that we always succeed at that. - Now, he's how old now? - Five - He's five and is in school, in a- - In full day daycare. - Uh huh. - Right. - So the babysitting would be at other times when neither one of you was able to be there. - Right. - How about you, Helen? - Well, of course, this is, since our youngest one is now 22, this is behind me, but then- - Mmm hmm. - we always had a babysitter who came into the home and stayed there while I worked until our youngest one was about a senior in high school. I did not work full-time in the office, so this meant that I was home quite a lot with the children. Having three so close together, I'm sure it put a stress on us. There was, there's a lot of physical work involved with little ones- - Mmm hmm. - as well as all the emotional involvement that you want to have with children. - Did they- - They all weathered it quite well, I have to say. You know, our, both our girls are planning two careers, they're both married. They're planning to have two career marriages- - Mmm hmm. - And- - That's fine. - Our son and his wife are planning the same. - So, you managed to give them the, to make possible, make it possible for them to have the same kinds of activities that other children had? - Mmm hmm. - Music lessons? Oh, I did the whole taxi- - The greatest, I think the greatest asset to me, as a working mother was when our first child turned 16- and he learned to drive! - Then he could start doing part of the taxi-ing for me. - But- - We, I'm really sorry that the there's not time for us to go on with this discussion. We do appreciate your being here tonight to discuss the two career family. And those of you who are in the radio audience, I would remind you that the same general topics at least will be raised with the husbands of these women next week. And we hope that you will listen to both, so that, how you, does that, we can all compare the answers! See if they felt the same way that the wives have felt about it. I thank you for joining us. We hope that you'll continue to join us each Monday night at 7:30 for 'A Feminist Perspective'.