- [Mitch] You know patterns.

- [Dan] That commission is that student commission on the status-

- [Mitch] Right. Yes.

- [Casey] Jenn, what about you?

- [Jenn] Well, most of my early life was spent studying. I was the big brain in high school, and I was always looking forward to college and to a career. At one time I wanted to be a psychiatrist. And the other big passion in my life was to be a lawyer. One of those two. So when I went away to college and enjoy very much the first two years of college. But I was married when I was 20. And fairly happily, I went off to a new university with my new husband. And finished my bachelor's degree there while being a wife. And at the end of that two year period, I wondered what comes next because I enjoyed cooking and I enjoyed taking care of the house. But I still had all of the ambitions and I still wanted to do more things. And I didn't know how to balance it together. I felt like a very weird kind of person because here I was married and yet I still had this ambition. So at 20, trying to learn to be a wife, I had gone pretty much into gourmet cooking and buying lots of cookbooks and artsy craftsy kinds of things. And every month, one of the big things when I went to the grocery store was to buy Women's Day and Family Circle magazines. And I found out all kinds of things I could do to decorate my apartment inexpensively, and all kinds of good meals that I could cook. And at 20 trying very hard to be a good wife. And so always buying these magazines and better homes and gardens. And when I finally decided, that I still wanted more, the first thing that I did, which I kind of count as as my first step toward liberation was to stop buying those magazines, and to buy one that would put me off on a different type of image. The first one that I bought instead was Cosmopolitan. But. At this point I am now beyond the Cosmopolitan stage and now I buy Ms. Magazine. In fact, I just noticed last week, if you shop at Foley's, you will notice it on the rack by the cash register, where they always have Family Circle and Women's Day, they now have Ms. Magazine.

- [Mitch] I have noticed.

- [Jenn] And so that was pretty much my first step, was to search out a different kind of input than the typical lady magazine kinds to reinforce what I thought I wanted to do.

- [Judy] And that's a really good kind of practical to the point kind of thing that you could really do

- [Jenn] Because it's right there by the cashier. No excuses to find it.

- [Casey] Dan, did you wanna respond?

- [Dan] It was kind of hard to locate a first step toward liberation for me. I've been struggling with his question for some time. Maybe one of the first steps was when I realized that the beds didn't have to be made every day, that the world wasn't gonna stop if the beds weren't made. And maybe the next step was realizing that if the sheets weren't changed every week, that nobody was gonna die of a fatal illness because of it. Another big step, possibly for me, was going back to school. Not in the beginning was it a big step, but it was a big step when I finally admitted, maybe to myself and to other people too, that I was serious about this. That it was within my self-image, to be a master's or a doctoral candidate. That I could learn, that I could afford to tap into myself and my own resources in an academic program. Maybe that was really the beginning of feeling free, to go ahead and to be and to become something different. But that took a long time. That took about a year and a half.

- [Jenn] I like that phrase that you use. Don't remember exactly in what context or how you said it but about self-image that it was within your self-image. I think that's a really important thing that maybe I would be good to talk about a little bit. That a first step could be reappraising yourself-image and finding out what you really do think about yourself and how you feel about yourself. And is that really what you want to project or you want for yourself.

- [Judy] Well, I think it's important too. For all women to feel that their self-concept is good, whether they're at home or whether they're at school or whether they are traveling. A friend of mine said to me recently that she thought one of the most beautiful things I did several years ago was to be a beautiful mother. And I had never really given myself that much credit. To me, I was a mother at the time. And I enjoyed and I loved it. But I never really thought of it as being my thing at that time. And I think it's important for women who do want to stay home to feel that if that's their thing and my thing, or your thing, that that can be a very beautiful thing. And you can do a lot of creative, beautiful things with your children. As far as playing with him and giving him the chance to grow up in more of a life that's free of all these sexual stereotypes. Like include your boys into the housework and include your girls into the idea of achieving more than just doing the dishes and kind of eliminate the roles in the house. And there's a lot of things that women at home can do. In reading to their children, different literature. Making the home a beautiful place for them to be-

- [Jenn] Also in doing that, you're freeing yourself to pursue some different kinds of activities. If you do divide up, say, divide up the housework or have your children help you with that, then it frees you more time.

- [Judy] Children can do a lot of things in a home. That some us still don't realize they're capable of doing. A three year old, four year olds on up can help tremendously.

- [Jenn] I think that that really works in with developing the self-image because it is the image of yourself, who you are and not what everyone says that you should be. I'm not thinking that myself is a mother and a mother does these certain things in these certain ways. But figuring out that I am a person and I have certain skills and certain feelings and certain weaknesses. How can I combine all of those in whatever situation I am in to be the best person? To me, this is a very liberating thing because I don't have to act as a wife acts in particular situations. Whereas a teacher acts or a student because all of those are different roles that I fulfill. But if I can be the best person that goes across all those roles. And so for me personally, that's my continuing goal.

- [Judy] And children pick this up too. If you're happy in your role, regardless of what it is. Children will pick up that idea that you are happy. And they too can say, well, I don't have to grow up and be a this or that. Some little girls might still hang onto the idea that they want to grow up and be a wife and a mother. And there's nothing wrong with that. If the woman who is playing that role is happy doing it.

- [Casey] Can anyone think of any other kind of practical, small steps that we would suggest to people listening to the show or things that your friends have done or relatives or anything?

- [Mitch] Well, I think it's very important for, especially single women students, to feel that they're a worthwhile person within themselves. And they don't need to prove themselves by how many days they can get, or how popular they are. They should have the self-confidence to... If they want to go to a movie in town to ask someone to go to the movie with them. And to take advantage of the opportunities on campus, cultural opportunities that are on campus community, to speak. Or some concerts and everything. And not to feel that somehow they will be stigmatized if they make the first step toward attending these, or asking someone to attend with them.

- [Casey] When you talk about asking someone, Mitch, do you mean asking a man or maybe-

- [Mitch] I mean a man or a woman, just a friend or an acquaintance.

- [Dan] I think we could talk about two different aspects of that, the idea of asking someone else. Now, if it's a man that is probably a very radical kind of step for someone to make. And then again, if it's a woman there's a whole aspect of it's just a girl friend, that she could either the one that asks for the... When it has been asked could cancel out at any time in case the man had happened to call.

- [Mitch] Or there's a stigma that if two women are out in the van. It's because neither one of them could get a man to take them. The whole thing to try to get away from there is that you need a man to accompany you places.

- [Jenn] Well, I'm remembering how it was when I was an undergraduate and realizing that I really sold myself short and all my friends, my female friends short as women because we would always have this agreement. If none of us had anything to do by Thursday, well, then we'd pick out something to go to on campus and make plans to go always with the idea. Now, if you get a date, if you go anywhere with anybody, we understand that's okay. You can break the date with us five minutes in advance and work hard to you because the guy is asking you out. It's as if any man's company to go anywhere, to do anything, is preferable. And I think I really sold myself short and my friends too. And didn't develop some relationships that could have been very good and very growthful for me.

- [Judy] Yes. I have several close women friends. That I meet with on a regular basis. Friday night or Thursday night, it's usually Friday night. And usually, I will put aside anything else just to keep that arrangement. And I think we all feel the same way. If we save Friday nights for each other. And it's an open discussion talk, or sometimes we go downtown and go to movie or drink beer together. But it is our night that we spend together. It isn't a last result, let's get together. I mean, we've planned this. I think something else that working women can do as far as household chores, I don't see that there's any reason that a woman who works six or seven or eight hours outside of the house or inside your house babysitting or whatever she does. While she should automatically assume the role of head of the household. And can cook, can babysitter, and head cleaner that if she's living with a family with a man and other children, that these jobs can be shared. And I think many men would welcome the opportunity of being allowed in to help make the decisions that most women do around a house. And it's up to women to give up some of their fussy little ways about the house, to allow a man in. And decide that the plates don't always have to be to the left of the sink where the silverware would always have to be in the first door on the left. You plan your kitchen together and try to work it together and it can work out very nicely.

- [Mitch] Judy, you're are hitting very close to home. With a little discovery that's been very profound for my life. About a year ago, we decided that the house was just too much for me. And I said, I couldn't handle going to school on a full-time basis and cleaning the house. And our decision at that time was to hire a housekeeper. So there at the dean's of woman's office, as a matter of fact, we found a lovely girl to come and work for us. For about five hours a week. And for the next nine or 10 months, Rachel literally took over the house and kept it clean, did all the laundry for us. And what happened by that move was a very subtle consciousness raising thing on the part of the whole family. It meant that I had to give up some power, that I'd never recognized as power before. I had only felt it as responsibility but I did have my peculiar ways of doing things. Rachel did them differently and we all noticed. Not only in the sequence, but in the final product, she did things differently than I did. And over the first two months, I would go around the house after she left and rearrange the candlesticks. And finally, I began to see her way as just as valid as mine, which led me to realize that the way the children did things was totally valid for them and for us. The kids began to look at the household tasks as not mother's job, but it's something that anyone could do because obviously I've been completely supplanted. Rachel liked it so much that she went off, and got married and left us high and dry! And we kind of struggled through the fall and knowing the process now, of redefining the house and the home is our environment for which we're all responsible. We all want to form, I think, a cooperative pool in managing our home together. I feel right now that to hire a housekeeper would be a real cop out for us because I want us to be able to handle our environment and our relationships with each other in maintaining that home. And we're working on it and we're working on it all the time.

- [Jenn] And how old are your children?

- [Dan] They're seven and nine.

- [Jenn] So they're really able to do a lot of...

- [Dan] They're very able to do things and they're learning to do more things.

- [Judy] I think it's important too for the children who are helping, if you allow them the freedom to complain or to call on the adults and say, "Look, you're not doing your job. Why should I do mine?". And I think it makes you... I was this Lord of the house too for many years, not realizing how much dominance I played in what was served and know how the house was kept. And it's interesting to me to hear the children say, "Well, I want to do it this way" or "I don't want to do it this way". And they have they're sharing in the work, so they get to share in the part of the decision on how it's taken care of.

- [Casey] Mitch, is there any way that we can relate any of this discussion to say student students?

- [Mitch] Well, I was just thinking about myself but I've been kind of a unique situation that I live in an apartment within a residence hall. And I work on the staff. It's a co-ed hall and it's a co-ed staff. And we have a lot of dinners. And the staff kind of gathers in my apartment a lot. And oftentimes the men end up doing the dishes or whatever. So I've kind of become accustomed. Maybe I'm done setting my ways yet but I've become accustomed to having to hunt for whatever I'm looking for. And just to sharing the whole responsibility of the cleanup and everything. That is not a typical student situation, I think.

- [Jenn] Well, I think it points out something that grabs people and their relationship and what they do with one another. It's a little bit more important than things and what you do with them and where you keep them and how you take care of them. And perhaps by reorganizing and either the home that your family lives in. Or even your room and your house keeping chores at school so that you have more time to devote to people and also to yourself as a person. I think that applies both ways.

- [Mitch] Yeah. When I first went back to school, my implicit feeling about the whole situation is that I'm doing a good job at home in sort of buying time off and bond-

- [Judy] Good behavior.

- [Mitch] It's an excellent behavior. I would take care. And I found out when I went back to school on full-time basis, that it wasn't possible for me to do it. It was ridiculous to play Superwoman. To try and do all of it. And who was I proving what to? And after I started asking questions like that, the small steps became very easy and very rapid to take in allowing my husband to come into the kitchen, for instance, to cook.

- [Judy] I think one thing that makes it very difficult is the society we live in and the kind of advertisements that are geared towards women. As far as washing machines. You always see a woman shown with the washing machine. There's so much stereotype, as far as roles of men and women, that I think to become a freer person yourself, you have to be strong enough to say when are some of these roles aren't what I want them to be, and I'm going to change them. And I think that's about the strongest thing. You have to do this a beginning towards you and freedom is just to be perhaps a little bit different than what the magazines are showing you.

- [Casey] Let me ask a, maybe it will be a controversial question, I don't know, I'll ask it anyway though. Do you think that families should sit down together and decide these things? Or do you think that the woman should take it upon herself to start changing within herself and the things that she does, and helps that the family will kind of follow along and change with her?

- [Dan] Well, I was... For myself, it seems to me to be the only way to go about approaching a permanent change is to elicit the help and the support of the people you're living with. The other model that you described is just being a domineering woman all over again and assuming a whole lot of control.

- [Judy] I think a woman has to feel that she has something to go towards because that if giving that being mistress of the house leaves you with nothing. I mean, if that has been your thing for a while, then I think it's important to begin thinking about other places where you would like to be in your life or other things that you would like to do. Because once you give up total childcare and care of the house, you really are left with nothing. Unless you develop yourself. So I think it's kind of a joint thing. I think you'd have to start learning and changing on your own. And I think you also have to have the cooperation of your family.

- [Casey] I like to maybe, we'll take a break here in a few minutes but maybe when we get back, we can discuss more for kinds of options that women do have and that women can kind of find on their own. If they do decided that the kind of total housekeeping and being the total mistress of the house or whatever is not what they want. And they are kind of frustrated with that, then how do they really go about finding what they do want? Where do you start? What small steps do you take to find that out?

- [Dan] That's almost a big step up though.

- [Casey] Yeah. Well, it's probably a big step. Why don't we go ahead and take our station break and then we'll be back in a few minutes.

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- [Casey] Jenn Benz, Dan Sanders and Mary Mitch Mitchelson. And I'm Casey Aikey. We had just started talking about what kinds of small steps or large steps can a woman take. If she does come to discover that she has come up against some kinds of frustration or is not really happy or satisfied with the role or with what she's doing with her life at the present. I'd like to hear some kinds of specific things that are things that maybe we could suggest.

- [Judy] A good friend of mine has become very interested this last June in grass tall painting. And she's done very beautiful work. And I think is in a point now, where she's helping to sell some of her things. And this is making her feel like... She's really happy with what she's doing. Her family is delighted with her talents. And this makes you feel happy that she's found talent. Or maybe the talent has always been there but she hasn't had time to experience it.

- [Casey] I think we do have a phone call. I did wanna mention, I guess I didn't really have to. Just quickly that we would any people to call in and give us suggestions or small steps that they may have taken or any comments, questions, or anything. The number here is 864-4530-864-4530 Can we have that phone call?

- [Listener] Hello?

- [Casey] Hello. I wonder before you leave that question completely as a panelist it's good to address themselves too. What might be done, in case you don't have the kind of cooperative family, that the panelists apparently have? I think we all know women whose husbands and children aren't quite that amenable to change. What suggestions would you have for the woman whose husband and children resist the idea that it's not entirely the mother's responsibility?

- [Casey] Okay. Thank you. In fact, I have to admit that during our break, we did start talking about that. And that was kind of a logical steps to what we were talking about before we broke. Judy, I know that you mentioned that you would like to respond to that question.

- [Judy] Does the audience know what the question was? Oh, well. I'm not saying that this will work for everybody. I'm just saying this is a personal thing that changed my way of life is that my life was not what I wanted it to be and not what my husband wanted to be. And we were divorced for a year. And in our year apart, we both grew independently and both had a very good year apart and are very happy to be back together again. And it's only through this break and each of us finding our own independence that we have been able to work out a lot of our differences. Now, I can't say that that's something that everybody should do but maybe instead of a divorce, maybe couples can just think about certain kind of breaks. Maybe getting away from each other, living apart for a while, or some traveling, just to get away from depending on each other in a day-to-day situation.

- [Casey] Thank you. Jenn, did you...

- [Dan] During the break, I was expressing the fact that I really think this cooperation is very important if changes are to occur in total family situation. For myself, I feel a tremendous amount of interdependence with the other three people that I live with. And what happens to one of us, seems to affect the other three very much. And although I have gone out and done some things without... Just snuck out out on my own without engaging the cooperation of the family. In many ways, when they don't understand what's going on, what's important to me, it comes back in ways that are hurtful. And so I like to try and tell the kids, especially the kids, where I am, what's important to me, what I wanna do. Judy was talking about being out of each other's way. I think we've learned to be out of each other's way as much as to be in and helpful to each other. One way of being helpful is when I need study time, I say so. And the kids will give it to me. And then when we have time together, then we have that time together.

- [Judy] It's a way of being totally together and totally apart. So many families are just kind of halfway together all the time. I had another idea. I was thinking about it. It passed off. Wait till it comes back.

- [Jenn] I think the key that is being expressed here is the idea not necessarily of... Simply because you have an idea, you want to be different. And so you act different and you might run into problems from husband and children and other people. But I see basically women's liberation as personal liberation and the steps for that, are trying to achieve the understanding and not just going ahead and saying "Well, I have had the light, I am becoming liberated and I am going to get a job like it or lump it". I think a person could expect not to have cooperation from that. But if you meet initial disagreement, try to work with the people involved. So that they can redefine themselves. Because a lot of times I think a person feels threatened by changes in someone else. They have to redefine themselves at the same time and so together you can work towards that.

- [Judy] Wow. I knew what I was thinking about before. I think if women approach the subject with men as a sharing proposition, that they will share in the responsibility of the family, share in to the economic structure of it and that this burden of the household is not on the man's shoulder and the discipline of the children does not have to be his. And I think a lot of men would be open to sharing their gardening and the car maintenance and a lot of the things that maybe they've had to do all the time, that they haven't especially liked. If they feel that a lot of this will be shared, then they're more opt to want to share with the childcare and the dishes and the kind of silly things. Inside or outside can just become, whoever does them. But I think a lot of men would be very happy to share the headaches of being head of a household with a woman.

- [Mitch] Yeah. Another thing about these kinds of changes is that I find that they need to be very, very slow. What we're talking about here are many years compacted into one hour.

- [Judy] Right. And I think if couples are having problems, I think there are places to go or people to contact as far as like getting help working out something like this. I don't know exactly where they could go or who would be a person to call. But I'm sure if a couple was interested in having problems, perhaps they could call the dean of woman's office and you could refer them on to someone that they could talk with. Or someone like myself or like Jenn, who has gone through or who are going through. It depends on where we see ourselves similar changes. And we would talk to someone.

- [Jenn] Or even to utilize some of the vast amounts of material literature and things written about the same kind of problem.

- [Judy] Right. I enjoyed a book called Open Marriage very much.

- [Jenn] So we have most of those almost all of those available in the women's library, which I was referring to at the beginning of the program. I'm trying to ask if the caller is still on the line if she had any other comments or questions. All right. She's hung up.

- [Casey] Did we have any more response to that question or did we pretty much cover that? All right. Maybe we could get back to then some more specific kinds of steps and things that we were talking about before the question was called in.

- [Mitch] Well, if can speak about students for a moment. I think the woman student is in a good position in this aspect because she's probably not... She hasn't chosen her lifestyle. It's not as concrete in her lifestyle yet. There are organizations on campuses and programs that commission to several programs. There's the human sexuality program coming up in February, February 9th. There's a women's film festival, February 5th and 6th. There are numerous programs on campus that she could attend. There are classes. There are five women's classes. Listen, this semester, she could enroll in one of those and do some reading in the area. And most importantly, I think that she could just talk with other women on campus and her friends. And I think there are many women who are reaching the same awareness on campus and it's important for them to talk with each other and hear each other's opinions and attitudes and experiences they've been through. If a woman student is interested in getting in a group like this, I know there are several on campus. She could contact me or the dean of woman's office or the coalition has several rap groups too. I think the opportunities for a woman student are really, really good. And if she's interested in getting into this more.

- [Jenn] Those are some very good examples of kinds of small steps that women students could take. And even a male student.

- [Mitch] Yes, true.

- [Jenn] I believe there are several classes being taught on campus this semester and continuing to be taught, that explore some of these issues.

- [Casey] We have another phone call. Hello?

- [Listener] Hello?

- [Casey] Yes.

- [Listener] I can't hear the radio anymore. It turns down I wouldn't get feedback. So I'm wondering if I'm on.

- [Casey] Yes, you're on.

- [Listener] Several things that you've been talking about as this really struck home. One of them is about the family that's not cooperative toward a woman going out and developing abilities that she feels she has and really needs to develop. It seems to me that one of the most loving things you could do toward another person is show them that they make you feel so good that you want to best the person you can be. And a situation where... Where it's a simple power play to see who can make who in a marriage or a home or whatever the living situation is, who can make who do the most stuff for other people is not a loving situation and really needs to be examined because there's no chance really for anybody to grow in that kind of situation. And then on the completely different area of small steps to take. Today, just happened to be the day that I hit on one of those small steps. And trying to figure out some way in a kind of crowded household to do something artistic and there's just no place with the two year old around, that you can spread things out, draw and cut and paste and glue and measure and whatnot. But there are all kinds of little projects that you can do on the kitchen counter and whatnot. But you have to have some kind of a real goal to make yourself make the space for those things. So there's something really great in this town and that's art in the park in the spring. And I decided that I'm come what may, I'm gonna enter three things in art in the park. And I'm also gonna hang up now. So I can go .

- [Judy] I think that's beautiful what you said.

- [Casey] Thank you very much for calling in. That's a very excellent statement.

- [Dan] I really like what she said about making space. And I think that the dimension also goes for making time. Time is there, the space is there. And it's what we choose to do with it. And the fact that there is a choice there and to be made. It's the most consciousness raising thing for me.

- [Jenn] I also liked the idea of the goal in mind. You can't just set out and really feel good about doing something if you don't really have some... Even to a very small kind of thing or a small goal that you feel much better about the accomplishing something. Or doing something if you do have that kind of set goal.

- [Judy] Well, and if it's your goal, that's all it really matters too. It's something that you want to do. I think that's really beautiful. And I mean, everybody has a bathtub. And as far as like painting that's a beautiful place to paint. I think of painting with my kids in the bathtub because it doesn't mess up the whole house. And you can do a lot of artsy things on the floor and just use the space that you do have.

- [Mitch] I like what she was saying at the beginning about loving is letting the other be and giving the other person the freedom to become whatever he needs to become. I recently ran across the concept of living room. Not meaning room house, but living room. Room for the other person to live, and to grow and to be as they are in the process of becoming. I really love that idea. It's really scary to be in a marriage or a permanent or semi-permanent relationship of any kind and then anticipate each other changing in becoming different. But that really is the ultimate of loving. It seems to me is giving each other living room.

- [Jenn] I think with that is probably the biggest risk involved in a woman thinking about liberating herself a little bit. But then thinking what will happen to me if I change, how do I fit in with my friends, with my family, with what my parents expect me to do? Will people still care about me if I'm different? And I think if you sincerely do care about another person, you have to risk letting them be different.

- [Mitch] And letting that risk carries with it. An awful lot of security and maturity on the party, on the part of both partners in a marriage that's gonna go this way.

- [Judy] Certainly because if you're going to be liberated, you have to accept the fact that your husband is going to be liberated also or might want to be. And I think you have to be open to all sorts of changes in a marriage and in a lifestyle.

- [Jenn] It seems to me also that people change all the time anyway. And that the people have to go into it and accept that. That, that is kind of a given in any kind of relationship whether it's your good friend or your husband or whoever. And that you should help that change along and help that person. Because many times, it's very hard for another person to change themselves.

- [Judy] I think it's important too, to talk about the idea that this change doesn't have to only cover to women who are 25 or 30 or 35. This change can dawn on a woman who is 40 or 45 or 50. And that schools don't set limits as far as what age you can go on to college and what you do doesn't have to be limited by how old you are.

- [Dan] A student last semester, I do not know her age, but her son was my age. And she was getting lots of pressure from her son about how much she was growing and how much she was changing. So it can happen all kinds of ways.

- [Judy] Right, I think a lot of women feel like they want to be home with their children when they are young. And they feel like, perhaps, if they wait till their children have entered school that they are going to be too old and that they can't start. And I think that that idea should be stopped. That women can always begin a new life and change her. Whatever she was before she got married, if she was a nurse or a teacher, or whatever, that doesn't mean she has to stay with that. And she can come back to school or go into art or change even at an older age.

- [Jenn] It's also recognizing that many times women have to start a new life and things happen in her life that she does have to take a new start and why not be already prepared or prime to do that? And that it wouldn't be such an alien idea that you would start a new, a whole different spear of days of your life.

- [Jenn] In the last couple of weeks, I've been the dean of woman's office. I have worked with several women who are older than the average entering freshmen. Several of them have been married and their children are now partially grown. They're thinking of coming back to school. So if there's anyone out there in that situation, you know that you can call the dean of woman's office. And, we have plenty of resources for reading and study skills to food counseling and just someone to listen to you. I think it's the idea of having a goal is important but I'm thinking of two of these women are not yet enrolled at college. They're not sure they're coming back but they are merely exploring all of the possibilities. And I like to see that very much someone pushing out all the different kinds of options that they might have. I think that if you're not sure what concrete goal you're going to be working for, shoot for the moon. Think about the type of job that you really might want and explore all possibilities in this location of how you could work toward that job. If you were thinking you might want to come back to school, start by KU. Check out some of the application procedures, see what exactly you would need to do, see what resources are available to help you. And this might set you on the path to a more concrete goal. If you don't have one already. I think that would be one basic step.

- [Jenn] No, I agree. That's a very good suggestion.

- [Casey] Jenn, I know that you did some thinking before the show about other kinds of specific suggestions for steps. And maybe if we could discuss a few of those I know that that you did mention something about making a life plan. Or really kind of sitting down and black and white writing out. I know it helps me a lot to make lists and to write things and it helps me think of something. I don't know, I'm weird but sometimes that definitely has helped me. And I'm sure it's the same for some other people too. What did you have in mind about making out a life plan?

- [Jenn] Well, basically for me, a life plan arises out of one simple statement. And that is, what do you want to happen? Well, do it. The idea is whenever you are in a situation in which you're experiencing dissatisfaction, figuring out, well, what would make me feel better? And once you've got that figured out, well, why aren't you doing it? So if at any time in your life, you feel you're not satisfied with it, sit down and decide what you want. And then how do I go about getting it? What are the skills I have? What are my good points? My strengths. Also what are the weaknesses that I have in my life? What do I want to have happened? And what is it that I'm doing now that's keeping it from happening? And this is what I call a life plan. Kind of setting out goals, figuring out what is keeping you from them and then how do I get around those obstacles?

- [Judy] I think something you said made me think back a few. You said communication. And I know personally there were many years where I was dissatisfied with my life. Yet, I really didn't communicate my anger or my dissatisfaction with anyone. And I think that was a great mistake on my part. That I wasn't a more open person and starting with these small grievances, regardless even how petty they might seem, I think it's important to express your feelings. And especially if you are living with another person, that's the person that should be hearing your feelings, and that you just can't stay locked up, feeling angry and alone. And no one would understand what you are feeling. It's really important to get these expressions out.

- [Jenn] And I think that it's never too late to get them out. I'm thinking of my mother, who is now 57. When she was 47, she went back to work for economic reasons. She had three kids to help put through college and she was still the queen of the house, and taking care of all of the housework with two big teenage boys in the house too. It finally got to her and she felt so frustrated that they throw their clothes on the floor because mother had always picked them up and they never worried about it. And this was part of her task. But with the added pressure of the job, she had all this frustration. And for several years she just kept going. And finally her big break through was telling my brothers that from now on, they were going to do their own laundry because she was doing about two loads a day. And took them and my father into the kitchen and showed them how to work the washing machine and the dryer. And said "No, I'm not going to pick up all your clothes around the house and I'm not gonna do two loads a day. If you want something clean, you do it". And this is how you do it. And she was very hesitant about it and she felt very guilty afterward. But this was her first small step towards having other people take responsibility around the house. And now of course, both my father and my brother say it was one of the best things that happened to them. And it was liberating for them.

- [Judy] That perhaps they never would have done it if she hadn't made the-

- [Jenn] She expressed herself what she had been feeling at last and nothing bad-

- [Judy] I think, another small step that is important is to stop referring to yourself as only a mother and only a wife or only a college girl. But to think of yourself as a person with real feelings and that you are it. You no longer have trouble around as someone's wife or someone's daughter, or whatever. I remember, last year, our teacher, who's very talented in her own life, introduced herself as this superintendent's wife. And someone else's mother, and she then begin saying that she was someone so, someone so, our consultant. And I felt like, "I wish you had introduced yourself". And she didn't have to say who she was related to at that time.

- [Mitch] Jenn, I wanted to add something you said before, when you were talking about women coming back to school and having a specific life goal. One of the things that to me seems terribly liberated is the idea that a woman can afford to be selfish and can afford to give herself the luxury of more education without a specific job goal in mind. That just because she is, just because she's a human being who's alive and breathing and capable of thinking, she might be a candidate to go back to school, just to think more and to learn more. Without any specific economic job type goal. With only the enrichment of herself in mind.

- [Jenn] Yeah. I think that may be hard for a lot of women to justify.

- [Mitch] Well, certainly hard for them too.

- [Jenn] Yeah. That here you are spending money and for what? Why? And that's one thing that I think that women need to go and that is very important to develop yourself and your own intellect and feelings, self-concept about yourself. I think the idea of having confidence that you are worthwhile. And no matter what it is that you're doing, if you are doing it, that is valuable to you. Respect that. I'm thinking again, of some people I've worked with in the office who are college students. And I think for a while, didn't realize that that was their current profession. Was being a student. And I like to see people, women in whatever they're doing, be professional with it. The instances I'm thinking of involved cases where women went in to about getting admissions to school, about getting jobs, several things that they were doing their business of being students. They did not keep any carbon copies of letters that they wrote arranging for special circumstances. They didn't get any of the agreements in writing. And because, well, it's just college. We're just being college students. And they were just being women and not causing any problems. And when things didn't work out, because they had not been professional in it, they did have some difficulty. So whatever it is, respect yourself and act professional.

- [Mitch] Judy, I especially liked your point about communication. More of a woman, if you're feeling frustrated and you're having thoughts in your mind that you're not satisfied with your role or there must be something different, to not be afraid to reach out and discuss this with other women because it's surprising how many people are feeling that way.

- [Judy] I think that's what I experienced in that liberation group that I was in. That, that was really my beginning and feeling like I wasn't the only one, who was frustrated over just minor things, things that I thought were just my own problem were shared by many women. So I agree that the communication can go and really needs to go beyond the family. You can reach out to a lots of people.

- I think that another another aspect about the whole discussion would be helping other women feel like people. And that whole thing. I'm not sure exactly what I want to say about that but how they go about doing that. But-

- [Mitch] You still wanna name the confidence that, as you were saying, to have respect for themselves and what they are doing

- [Jenn] Right. And not putting down the choices that they may have made. I think we kind of touched on that when we were talking to about a lot of women put themselves down in a subtle kind of way. By just saying "I'm just a housewife". And I think it's important for other women not to say, well, you're just a housewife. It's very important to build up their own self-image too.

- [Casey] Are there any other kinds of small steps? I wish that we don't have too much time left that we had more phone calls or suggestions that I know that we don't have right here at this table. All the different small steps and suggestions that there are. I think we've just about covered it. We've covered quite a few. One thing that I would like to say is invite anyone who may be listening, if they have any thoughts later about the topic or I would like to discuss it further, that they could call at the woman's office and someone there would be glad to talk to them about it. And in fact, I know one woman who contacted off and she wanted to form a group, a rap group for whatever. It got determined. And I do have her phone number there. I don't have it with me now. I wish that I did. But I do have it there. And if there's anyone interested in doing that kind of thing, we would be glad to facilitate that. I'd also like to ask you to be sure and tune in to next week's program, which will be women and sports. That's at the same time, 7 p.m. to 8p.m. on Monday evenings, KANU. I'd like to thank our guests for coming tonight and providing the show with some footfall discussion, I think. So we hope that you'll tune in next week.

- [Announcer] Listen again, next Monday at 7 p.m. for a feminist perspective. Presented in cooperation with the office of the dean and women at the University of Kansas. This is public radio from the University of Kansas, KANU Lawrence. It's now 7:59 p.m. and time for news headlines.