- Good evening and welcome to a Feminist Perspective. I'm Linda Jones, Assistant Dean of Women at KU, and I will be moderating tonight's program, "Women in Art." A Feminist Perspective is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, located in the Dean of Women's Office, 222, Strong Hall. Our telephone number is 864-3552. I hope that through this program you can become familiar with some of the many resources available to you through our office. We are concerned with anything that concerns women, and have gathered people and materials to help you with questions, ranging from career planning and academic counseling, to legal rights and current legislation, to medical services for women. I hope that you will call or come by soon so we can find out what's on your mind and what kind of services you need. The goal of this program is to provide a forum for women themselves to speak publicly on issues of concern to them, and help inform other women and men of the movement which is remaking the shape, and substance of women's and men's lives. The topic for discussion tonight is Women in Art. The women who are here with us are Peggy Baldwin, staff director of Hashinger Residence Theater and actress. Marsha Paladin, teacher and dancer. And Herta Galton, painter. This program is being prerecorded. So tonight we will not be able to respond to telephone calls. The topic for us tonight is Women in Art. I think we'll start the discussion by talking about focusing your attention is an integral part of being an artist. This is not been culturally encouraged for women in the past. Rather the role of wife and mother has been in the forefront. How do you feel that this has affected your own personal growth as an artist? Peggy? - I think I came at this from a very different point of view and that was, I knew very young what I wanted to do. And I was encouraged right from the beginning. I think when I saw my first movie I had decided that I wanted to be an actress and I never changed my mind. I was encouraged most of my life to go ahead and do this. And so, I knew what I wanted to do when I left high school, I went to New York and went to a drama school and worked in a theater for seven years. And I had sort of a reverse process because then after seven years of a career and becoming extremely tired from the process of the competitiveness especially. Then I married and had children. And then I encountered the diffusion of focus. I had been so totally focused and so absorbed and involved and dedicated. I found it a very very difficult adjustment. Just the way I concentrated was so focused and so, I guess the circle of focus was so intense that to broaden it to include a husband and then children, was almost excruciating and very, very traumatic. And then I think it's been a very valuable process because it's helped me to, I've grown in very different ways, but I don't think that it's been easy at all. I guess the process has been similar for you or not? - Yes, it really has, it's amazing. I too was encouraged right from the very beginning to do what I wanted to do. I started dance training when I was very young. And I wanted to be an actress too. - Did you? - Yes. After I saw my first musical comic, I came home and day after day, played costumes like theaters behind the sofa and so on. And then I went to Occidental College, and decided that movement was really the thing that I wanted to go into. Then I met my husband and we married when I graduated, and we went right into graduate school at the University of Illinois, both of us. So there wasn't any break there. We were both students. I was a teaching fellow there. And it was then that I really started focusing as an artist, the rest, the early part it was just really just playing around. There wasn't any training or any focusing really, but it was playing around. Then I got to Illinois and I started really devoting my attention to the art. And for six years, I did exactly what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Then we moved here and it was a real shock. It was a real shock because I left Illinois pregnant, came here, had my first child. And that first year was really grim. - Yeah. - And I have real guilt feelings now about it, because I lost out that first year of my first child's life. You can't cry over spilled babies or whatever. But it's come up again in my life now because I have another new baby and I'm thoroughly enjoying her. And I think why couldn't I have enjoyed that first baby? As it's turned out I wouldn't trade it for anything, the life and the fact that I've grown, as you say you have Peggy through it all. But I kept thinking, why didn't my mother tell me that, "Okay, go ahead and focus." But when you have children, there's going to be an adjustment. I wasn't warned, and I wish now I had been because if I had been prepared... - You've wouldn't have believed it. - Even if she told you. - What did your mothers tell you? - Did your mother tell you? - My mother told me this. I had a very different experience picking our efforts so mattered different because I was discouraged as a child, I always wanted to paint. And that was the most dreadful thing one could do. I was discouraged all the time. And I made a sort of compromise with my mother to become a fashion designer instead of an artist. And that's what that was, are the years the war broke out you know, I had to emigrate, lots of things happened that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. I emigrated to England and I got married. I had children, and I forgot completely about what I want, I didn't forget I would say I wasn't too happy, but life we were very much concerned by staying alive during the four years in England, we didn't think of that much. And then we went back to Vienna and I started, as my children have been to school, I had much more time on my hand. And then I started to think of what they really wanted to do with my life. And I went to painting school, and then to the Academy in Vienna, and I started to study really seriously. And then I had all this problems you are having. You see, because it is very, very difficult to keep a household going the same way you kept it going all these years. To be a mother the same way all the time and to be a wife. - It's not possible. - And I would say it's almost, It's however say it's impossible. I am not very happy with what has happened in my life, with everything that was unhappy in the tool, because it helped me go, and I wouldn't be able to do with them doing it too big but for that. But now I'm really beginning to enjoy life. And really growing up the first time being responsible for myself. And I'm very happy that way. - And doing what you really want. - Doing what I always wanted to do. - Tell Marsha what you told me yesterday about painting. - Oh, yes, that you have to learn to paint. Is that what you mean? - No, I was at her house yesterday and saw her paintings for the first time. And what you said about, you know, you wish you had all these arms and hands. - Oh yes, I have so many of these that I wish I could paint continuously day and night and I do something. - Unless you have six hands, so she could paint the hot ones. - She can use your children. - And her paintings now, they just exude all that vitality and that vibrance in that aliveness that just says, I'm just so happy and alive doing what I'm doing. - And it just leaps out of the paintings that you know, it's just it's really exciting. - This all ended the first time that they see them doing what they wanted to do in painting tool, not only in my life. - But this to me, this brings up a question about the different sets of experiences which each of you have had. And from what you have said about her paintings, that this does come out and that you are expressing this, do you feel that Marsha and Peggy that you are expressing some parts of you, that your role as a woman has given you different experiences, and that as a part of your art you are expressing them? - I feel that way, I think right now all of the tendency is not to differentiate between men and women and what they bring to any given thing. But to say that we all have the potential for a wholeness. And I think in theory, I agree with that, but I think we aren't at that state of wholeness yet. And I feel very much that I bring something different to my art, I express something different. That's not saying that a man couldn't do the same thing but let's see, as an actress I wasn't able to see my myself very well because I was involved in a production, now since I've been directing and I've done several shows, I have begun to see a style emerge and I can sit outside and watch it and - Your style? - My style, yes. And also as I articulated what I want to convey, I'm beginning to feel that it really, I think has a feminine focus in that. I'm primarily interested in theater that involves people. That means it's a meaningful and involving emotional experience, for not only the cast, but for the audience. And I'm not really very interested in just intellectual theater. I'm interested in that which touches people most deeply. And I've been kind of curious as to whether this, I'm sure that men would say that they also feel this way. And yet I have a feeling that my directing and my kind of theater it's much more emotional, than most men might arrive at. - That for tasking. - Well, yes, I realized that's very valid and I guess I have to say, maybe it's American culture that I'm talking about, and maybe I'm not talking about professional either. Maybe I'm just talking about what I experienced, let's say on a less professional level. I know this is open to a lot of questions. And yet I have a feeling, I wonder if the experience of being a woman, doesn't get you in touch with a level of humanity, of a feeling level of inference, of sensitivity, and empathy. Again, I don't think that this has, that men are excluded from this, but somehow by virtue of our particular positions in society, and some sort of conditioning, I wonder if we haven't develop these resources a little bit more highly than men have, and I think they've developed other aspects of themselves and now we're trying to interchange the two and both grow from each other's experience. Does that make any sense in your experience? - I can go along with it. I've never thought about that question. - Yeah, I just don't see why all these, all that shouldn't be possible for the men to experience too. - Oh, I think it is. - I just think this is the way by sample of that. to not to experience some of these few things. - I think that's what Peggy said. - I'm not disagreeing, well, maybe I'm just wondering why it should be that way. - And for the men, well, for us for instance, going out and earning a living, and having to deal with the the pressures and responsibilities of keeping a job going, like in the theater here, there are administrative responsibilities and there are human relations things that come up. And, and I must say, after not having worked professionally for about seven years, and then now going back I'm much more sympathetic with the pressures that I know Don has been experiencing. I had a tendency to forget them, you know in those five years or seven years. I think we've all suffered one way or another. I mean, women have suffered from lack of exposure, lack of having to perform as it were in the world, and lack of having to accept responsibilities and all. And men, in some ways it had to perform so much, that they haven't had a chance to develop those more quiet delicate sensitivities, you know. That I think are really, and I think both of them are really important for the wholeness that we all need as human beings. I've talked to men - No, no, no, I think that. No what you said reminds me of a friend that they express their opinion, that it was completely impossible for her to accept a man as a ballet dancer. - As a ballet dancer? - Mmh, mmh. And I had just come to understand his point of view, men say, I don't understand anything about the art and leave that to my wife. - Do you feel this is changing at all, because of the women's movement, or do you think it is still much more socially acceptable for the woman of a couple, or the woman in society to have the feminine characteristics involved with appreciating music and art? - Oh, I think it's very much that in much that way. And I think it's much more in this country than any where else in the world. - This reminds me of an article my husband was reading in Psychology Today. - I don't get time to read that. It's hard to review many of it. I feel lazy sometimes visiting my own stuff. - Anyway, it was about some sort of tests that they had done with men and women judging painter's work. And I think in, did you see that study? One of the control groups, I really can't remember exactly what it was but there was a control group in another group. And one of the groups was told that it was a woman painter or a man, and the other group wasn't. And of course the judgment was, which is better? Or which should win the prize? And the men, the men are artists were the ones that putting you on one. Judging men and women judging, the women thought that the man should win. And the man thought that the men should win. - So that sort of turns the table, why would that be? - Well, if a man does something you see then it must be good because men are always earning to, that it must be good. You see it's almost a matter of a little bit of money. - That's what the only thing I could think of. - Yeah, this brings up the whole question of competition in the arts. Do you feel that women primarily compete against women, as in the article you were saying, when you have a woman and a man competing, the man comes out ahead in this particular study. In the theater or in dance, or even in painting, do you feel that this recognition is given because the man is a man, or because of a value judgment of his creative talent? - I think officially it's obvious the man who are much more important in, say teaching, you know, classes, exhibition, those kinds of thing. But when it comes to saving, I don't think it matters really very much because some would, because you like a painting at the end, they don't care who painted it really, unless it is some of the very famous in all that. - What about in dance? - It's really funny because today, probably always there've been more women involved professionally than men, so that the men hold a very very special position. In New York today, there are mostly the male choreographers, Merce Cunningham, and Alwin Nikolais, Paul Taylor and someone who are recognized. And now there's an underground, well, it's not so much underground anymore. For young people, women are becoming involved in more experimental kinds of things. But the real established dancers, choreographers, artists are men. - Whereas the actual performers have - There are more women performers than men. But the artists aren't yet. - Do you think it has something to do with the men, where they spent all the their time and all their life in it? And then do other things besides? - That course so, my friends who've gone to New York, that's what their focus is. But I think that it must have something to do with it. - Well, I wonder if it isn't something to do with the choreographer originates, he creates it. Therefore he is the the director of the direction of that. I'm using your example of the male choreographer. Therefore he is in control of what is created, in what evolves and the woman performs it. And so he still is in charge. - I have never worked with choreographers. - well, it's the same way with directors though. Most of the directors in the theater are men, and this seems to be the prerogative you know, of the male to, it's again, leading and women can perform, but to break through that and allow women to originate, to create, to lead. - Historically, it's interesting in dance, in 1900 when Isadora started, Isadora and Ruth St. Dennis, and then Martha Graham, - There was something that you were talking in, they started it all. And now of course, their offspring, Merce worked with Martha and Hosanna Mon worked with Doris Humphrey, they are now, they've come of age, but they're really not a woman I dearly love him, personal friend, Katie lips. She has had a real struggle because she's an extraordinary talent, but she's had to do it on her own. She's never really, she's gotten Guggenheims and things like that to keep going, but she's never been able to have the way with all, the other company where she would, where she would really like to have. So here's a talent that really has never, and she's bitter about it too. At times, very funny lady, but she's still bitter about it. - And you think it has to do with that she's a woman? - I don't know, I don't know, because she's an extraordinary talent. I think it's harder being in that position and being. - She never had children. So she was really always Catherine Lips, dancer choreographer, and she's had a real rough go. Do you think this is a function of the fact that society in general has been treating women in this way? Or do you think it's something unique in the field of art for her to have to fight even harder, to break through this? - That brings us back to something we were talking about earlier, the whole business in the arts, the focusing is primary. When you have a job, a secretarial job or some kind of a professional job, any kind of job. Where you can go to your office or whatever, go to school teach or do whatever and come home, you might bring some of it home but, - I can't switch off turn on and off. - But when you were an artist, the creative need is there and it's gunning you, it's there underneath your seat all the time, and you can't turn it off. - You can't stop thinking about what you're doing. - And it's just painful not to be able to. - Thank God for Nasa because When I read it, he said, now look, this creative urge that you have is as basic as eating and going to the bathroom and sleeping. I mean, it's just there and it has to come out. And so don't kick yourself for, what he did he say there? I interpolate - Don't kick yourself or for having it, don't feel you have to put it under the carpet while you're vacuuming. - And but it's so frustrating when you know, you can't let it just flow and manifest itself the way you want it to, you know and when you seem to have all these blocks in the way. - It's very often hard enough to keep it going, keep it flowing, even if you have nothing to space in the way. But if you have it demanding husband, if you have demanding children, and our kinds of duty, then it's really very, very hard to think of what you want to do. - And then you get into the guilt. - The guilt is the best of course because the guilt creates blocks, more and more blocks, that you can translate into work. And then fail, then you can't work. Even if you have to turn an opportunity you can't work once you feel guilty. - Has anyone experienced in relation to this guilt, the inner dialogue goes something like, you know, I feel this frustration, I really wanna be doing something else, I really wanna express myself, And yet here's the husband and here's the children. And I really, you know, the other cultural line is, I should want to be with them. I should want to do this for them. I should love it. I should want to give my whole life to them. - And I get into the thing of what kind of a woman am I? If this isn't enough, is there something wrong with me as a woman? Is there something wrong with my feminine and you know, I never begin to really question it. That kind of a question is a very, very, there's something very bad about it, it can be a very destructive question, a very defeating question internally. if you really start turning in on yourself, and asking that kind of a question about your own femininity that can really be painful. - I didn't ask it quite that way, but with my first child I was really worried that I wasn't a natural mother. - I knew I wasn't. - Have I come from another planet? - Well, let's take a station break, and then we'll be right back with the Feminist Perspective. Welcome back to a Feminist Perspective. I'm Linda Jones, assistant Dean of women at KU, and I'm moderating tonight's program, "Women in Art" . Our guests here with us are Peggy Baldwin, staff director from Hashinger Residence Theater and actress, Marsha Paladin, teacher and dancer. and Herta Galton, painter. We were talking about some of the concerns of being a mother, and the role of a woman in society. And trying to combine this with your art. I don't think that any of us have mentioned anything about the role that the men in your lives have played in this. Have they been helpful? Or how has this been as a part of a function of your being both an artist and woman? Marsha? - Well, it's nice to be able to have the opportunity to say thank you publicly to my husband because he's really unusual. I think in this respect. Right now for example, I have time every day to go to the studio and work. And when I was doing that and even last year or two years ago, we both realized afterwards that there was still, when I leave home, there was still this unspoken, "you really should be here with me and with the kids." And so I go and work and as you say her to, how can you get that out of you when you're going to work and try to allow something to flow? But we worked through that and it came out that that was true. When he left for work it was, "see you have a good day." But when I left it was, "you really should be here." And when we got that out in the open, now it's just this is my time. And we share evening bedding down responsibilities and so on. And one, evening even I get to stay home and sow or read or do what I ever I need to do it. Isn't just, this is my time to go to the studio. I have one night at home when I don't have to take care of the family, and I can do other things that I like to do as well. So I'm very lucky, I'm very, very lucky. And I know it. - Do either of the other two want to comment? - Well, I was at first encouraged, but my husband thought that it would nice for his wife to have a hobby. And he wouldn't, he didn't think it would become such my life really and he couldn't stand it. And I think, only married secured men can stand it. I think this where we've had so much of the problems because of the basic insecurity of men. Who can't stand that if women have something that is not connected necessarily with them. - And so compelling. - And so compelling I think. - And I think in our particular area of commitment, that is even more compelling than say. - Than a professional job. - Oh yes, - Maybe not, I think it is. I think it must be. - I was encouraged by my husband, encouraged to be interested in to do this and to pursue theater even though I was taken, even though I left the professional arenas it were, but I found that that none of the, there was no facilitating done. In other words, if I did it, I had to do I had to direct a play in addition to everything else. And I was in town, I was just trying to be superwoman, and it it was not fulfilling, I found that I was so completely exhausted and couldn't, it took me several years to figure out why. And I then pulled completely in and did nothing for a year. And didn't like the way that felt. And we've just arrived at a workable arrangement whereby he's really assuming you know, good portion of the responsibility of the home, like today is Monday and that's his day to stay home. And I work as much, I do as much work on Mondays as I can, along with evening work. But he does the washing and he drives the carpool for school and takes care of our youngest daughter who's three, and he does some cooking, he bakes better pies than I do now. And we also share some of the dish washing and bending down during the week depending on what kind of a schedule we both have during the week. And it certainly has made it much easier for me to walk out and forget. In other words, it's yours, it's your day. I don't worry about it. It goes the way you want it to go or help it to go. And I think it's been really good for the girls because they, now when something goes wrong, they scream mommy, and if that doesn't work, it's daddy or sometimes the reverse, which I think is a very healthy sign for the children too. I think it's been very difficult on him, and it's helped me really to understand the plight of the man in all of this, because even though he gave a lot of intellectual assent to it, I found that I would come home on Mondays, and we have fights when I got home where he'd be really angry and it would take awhile to find out what he was angry about. And it started to form a pattern, and it was just very hard for him. He would call the basement the dungeon because that's where the washing machine and the dryer was, and that he was spent a good part of his day down there. And it was very difficult for him. And I think he's adjusted to it a lot more. He's finding that there are really important things in it but even when, when the intellectual assent is there, the emotional change, is a longer process to come by. - Something that was interesting for Phil, was twice, I've gone away for a week at a time to New York, and he's had full responsibilities and I came back, I said, boy do I ever appreciate you? - What the responsibilities are, and at least for a month afterwards, it was really sharing of many more responsibilities than we already do share now. - Peggy brought up the point about the effect on the children. Do you think that in you're trying to work out some of these relationships, and just problems with scheduling your priorities, do you think this is going to have an effect on the way that your daughters will see themselves as they grow? - You mean their image of themselves as a woman? Both as a woman and in relationship to the role of mother and father, their own identity as well as the way they view you. - I think we can only speculate. I think it will have definitely an effect on their image of themselves as a woman, and what a woman can do in the world. I don't know what it'll do in terms of the father image. And I think it's really much too early to tell, anybody have any feelings about that. - It only brings to my mind that I've asked to Carrie, what does your daddy do when he goes to the university? And once in a while, when she answers the question about me that I, oh, I wash dishes or something like that. But more often now, if I go to the studio and I go to dance. - And you kinda liked that. - Yeah. - And I think that it's so important that children find the mother as a human being too, and other responsibility itself of a real human being and not just a washing machine of the dawn. And I think that they later use children to appreciate that once they understand it. It's an early years that you just want a mother to be around you, but later a mother becomes a friend instead of just being a mother. I think it's very important that the mother has give something else. It's also very important for the mother apart from being an artist, to have something for herself because life can be very lonely if you're alone, and your children and leave you and you may not have a husband. And there has to be something that fails to play so far that this is where so many women make the mistake of running to the children's lives because they have nothing else to create in. - This may be an unfair question, but from where you are now in terms of your career as an artist, as well as a wife, mother, do you think that if you had it to do again you would do things a little differently, and give yourself time sooner to develop? - Yes, I certainly would have done many things differently. I would have mattered and I would have had children, I don't regret that. But yes, I would have started much earlier and have given the time for my back instead of my husband's back. Because I was much more involved with my husband's back than of myself. That was the important thing, that was the bread winning thing, what I did was not important. - You were an extension of him than your own individual being. - Right, right. And because I didn't enjoy that 100%, I felt guilty for not being what that was expected to be. It's only this last few years that I found out that I'm not many more things wrong with me than but I felt I was outcast. - You mentioned something about outcast. How do you feel that the role of a woman is she an outcast in society? Is the artist cast? What about the combination? - This I wonder with the women are not outcast as artist and as women. I just wonder how our women feel, whether they feel as outcast If they don't, if they don't have the same feelings that their mother told them they ought to have. - About their role as women. - About their role as mother and woman. - It's a little frightening though sometimes to ask this, you know, to feel those things into articulate them then you're really on the edge of change, and some people like, I think there's a tendency to block those kind of thoughts out. - Yes, but it's very important to think about that. We take so much for granted that we were told, and we tell the same things our children, with all different thinking, haven't you found sometimes you tell your children exactly the same things your mother told you, and you knew they were longing to compel for yourself. - No, no, I try not to. And if I start, I stop until not around him. - You maybe more conscious of yourself than I was, but I found myself doing that I had to tend - So you're saying that now you're making a conscious effort that you're really trying to dispel some of those myths. - Yes, constantly. - How does this fit in to what you personally are trying to do with your creative talent as an artist? Are you attempting to dispel this with that? Or is that a side effect? How do you see it? - Well, I think in some ways that's true because I think I've said before, I'm very committed to to theater that has something to do with changing people's lives. And therefore an experience that affects them enough to perhaps move, to create some inner movement. And for instance, I was going to do a feminist play this fall, and then change my mind because I really felt like men were having a lot of difficulty too. And I wanted to focus on the relationship instead. But I would be very interested in hearing both of you articulate what your goals are? I would like to know that for myself. - I don't think I have a goal, I just want to paint. I just want to paint. - But yesterday you said to me, I asked you about your history and the movement of your paintings and all, and you said it seemed to you like you were, you were still saying the same thing. - Oh yes, yes, I've always been saying the same thing. And I want to express it better and better, this is my goal. I have no other goal. - When I got into the car with Don and we got onto the conversation of your paintings and he said, I wonder what it is she is trying to say. And I then wondered if it was something you could articulate. And then I thought, oh, no, I don't think I'd want you to. - I can't, but this is so many people ask me about my work, and what do you mean to say? That it has something to save I hope, it has something to say for everybody. And everybody should find his own feelings in their paint. It doesn't matter who it is, but I paint as if I was dreaming. That painting comes out of my subconscious and it is for him or her to translate it, not for me. I couldn't begin to tell you what I want to paint. It may mean something completely different to me than to somebody else, that's all I had. - I use my time at the studio, which is just a space to work a quiet place to work, as a time to center, to come together. Oh, I can be try to be poetic or use other people's words to experience my organic unity, which whereas I've used before. I liked the the words, open opening the channel. The kind of thing that I do is an attempt, it's very akin to, in many forms of meditation, specifically the kind of things that's been developing me, has been developing from various sources for the past several years. And in effect it's to open the channel and allow whatever energies or whatever will flow to flow , to tap the deeper inner source. And fortunately for me, it's simply means becoming whole. And so that goal is very nice for living too. So I liked the Balinese saying we don't have any art, we do everything the best way we can. - What you say is very beautiful, and I think it, it had good for any kinds of creativity. You'll just, there's this unity of flowing. This is what we're doing it. - And the awareness seems to move. I mean, as if it were part of a home, because I find that the things I learned to my art or the insights, or the the depths that I reach feedback into my life, and it says, if you were creating yourself at the same time. - Do you find though that patterns emerge from this centering process? I mean, by that, you spoke about going through phases and now you were ready to reach a new stage. And I had a feeling that that might involve a new dance creation or. - It is, it is, but I can't even talk about it, I don't understand it, it's just happening. And so it's really, really would be difficult to talk about. - They say you shouldn't anyway, because you start part of the process where when you articulate it. - I can say one other thing that is fortunate for me, one of my focuses is on the movement development that we all share, from first to three years and onward but the prenatal life actually too, but from birth to three years, this is one of my primary points of focus. And so as a mother, especially with being able to thoroughly enjoy my second child, the watching and growing with that development that occurs, and the movement development is influencing my work. So as I say, I'm very fortunate that I'm able to blend my art with watching my children grow. I have a piece that when Carrie was, it before Carrie was called first year, and now it's second first year because I've had another chance to look. - But isn't that the art really should be, it should be part of your life. And you should be able to integrate everything you experience and to live for. It's the only when you feel that there're two parts of you, then you can't integrate and then everything goes wrong. But if you use everything that's happening to you in your back, and live your life as an artist, as a whole, then you'll be a younger team, then you can really create. - It's hard to even really think of that separating being an artist from being a woman and me as a person, it's all just kind of wrapped up in one. - It should be one, and you can only function as one. - But it does get splintered sometimes. - It should not, it should be possible to completely unite two beings. - And I think that's what from what you three have said, that this the way you view yourself, that you've been working towards that, that you bring different experiences from being a woman and from being a person in relation to your husbands, to your children. But yet it's all tied up in this one channeling of being an artistic entity. - That's well expressed. - That that is as I see it from what you said, this is where you are. And to me, it's a very exciting process because I think that from articulating some of the things that we have heard tonight, that you've not only shared something of yourselves with each other, but I've just seen like you said this glint in the eye of sharing similar experiences, that perhaps you were not aware other women had been having, or other artists or whatever the combination can be. - It's been fun and very refreshing yes. That concludes our discussion this evening on Women and Art, a part of a Feminist Perspective sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, and the Dean of Women's Office in Strong Hall. I'd like to tell you a little bit about the show for next week Christmas night. The topic will be Women in Religion. On the panel will be Dianne Nascar, who is a woman seminary student. Mary Beth Kelly, a religious sister. A local campus minister, Otto zing. And also Dan Queery who comes from a fundamentalist training of a Southern Baptist minister. We hope that you will tune in next week and be with us as we discuss Women in Religion.