- Is the Roles of College Women, Campus Update. Or we might subtitle it. The College Woman Activist. Our guests tonight are Tony Kramer, president of Lawrence Women United. Feydot Hime, president of the KU Commission On The Status of Women. Mary Kelly, co-chair person of the Commission On The Status of Women, non-traditional student committee and Barbara O'Brien, a Women's Studies major at KU. As you see these people are all college students, so that we are not presenting the program on the roles of all women who are in college but concentrating on, connected with the university but concentrating instead on the college student. So let's start by discussing a little bit what an activist is as opposed to his opposed to what? Why don't you give your interpretation of activism and then perhaps I could give mine. Now, unless you want me to start. Who wants to start with an explanation? How do you view it, Mary? You thought that somebody else would begin? - Do we identify ourselves? - No. No, just talk-- - Okay. I think that an activist is someone who not only plans for the woman's movement now, but who looks to the future in terms of her activities and how it will affect the woman's movement in future years. - Could you define the woman's movement? We've been talking about it, you know, off and on but I don't know if we, we like to hear various people's interpretation of what that means. What does it mean to you? What's it a movement toward? - Well, when I think as a woman's movement, I always think in terms of the feminist and this is that a woman is not limited to one role but has a choice in multiple roles. This could be your career, a family, but the main importance is what is best for you. And that you do have a choice. - All right. Could be a combination of all those things too. - Yes, it could. - All right, good enough. - Yeah, I agree with Mary that I just don't feel that women should be restricted to traditional role expectations. That they should have a variety of options and these options should be open to both men and women alive. - So you think it's not just women that-- - No, it's for both. - That should have a choice among roles, that all human beings and... Anybody else got an idea on that? - Well, I think it's more than within the woman or within another person and their role expectations. It extends to the society. And in my own opinion, forcing the society to allow women to take whatever role they choose. - You know an organization, a women's organization, which I belonged for many years now had as it's a theme for a long time "Study without action is futile, and action without study is fatal." And I think that that's really the way I tend to think of the woman activist, as opposed to one who is just beginning to catch on, that perhaps she has not had, or anybody else in our society has not had a truly free choice as to the kind of person that he or she wants to become. At the beginning of the resurgence of interest in women's movement, we saw the formation of many groups, usually called consciousness raising groups. And the purpose of these groups of course was to do just what it said, to raise people's awareness of what was happening to them. And some of them were not successful because that's all they did. And people got so much satisfaction out of that. They never went out and did anything to make any changes. Those who did are those who were already aware became known as the activists. This is a, it's a very fine term, it seems to me. And not one which should in any way be confused with as a derogatory term. It's one of the about the nicest thing. It seems to me that anybody could say about someone unless one becomes an activist, not having any idea, not having really thought through the issues either alone or with somebody else. Then I think you can now get into a fatal position if you simply act without knowing what it is that you're acting about. Anybody else have any comments on this or is that enough to define an activist? Or did any of you disagree with that definition? - No. As a Women's Studies major. I definitely agree with that. That's one of the major reasons I decided to study Women's Studies because I had had some kind of role in the feminist movement for three or four years before that and thought it was a logical extension. - What do you the feel is the mood on the campus now concerning the roles of college women among the women that you know personally? Not anything you've read or studied about but kind of how would you define it there? - From my experience, I think that women are more receptive to ideas that are being put forth by the women's movement. And I've seen this evidenced through my experience by more people attending commission programs and the newsletter. The amount of people on the newsletter is increasing and we're receiving more phone calls. So just viewing it from that perspective, I think at least more women are attending these programs and allowing themselves to view other aspects than they possibly would have in the past. - You send your newsletter to anyone who request it? - The people on the newsletter we've collected their names either through enrollment or through the various programs or by word of mouth. So anyone who's interested in receiving a newsletter is able to. - So if we have someone in the radio audience who has been unable to attend to any programs but would like to know what the KU Commission On The Status of Women is doing, you could write, you could just write to our office and we would get it to Fey, at 222 Strong Hall, Lawrence, Kansas. And has to be put on the mailing list of the KU commission. Then even if you're too far away to attend very many programs, you at least will know what this group is doing. Tony, you're the president of Lawrence Women United, what is Lawrence Women United and who can belong to that? - Well, first of all I did not mind define myself as a president. And I do not see Lawrence Women United as an organization in which a hierarchy has been set up. My political beliefs lead me towards collective work. And Lawrence Women United is pretty much organized around a collective system of belief in which everyone belonging takes different responsibilities. Lawrence Women United is an organization which in a long-term sense is attempting to bridge some of the gaps between university women and towns women. Some of our projects include a Women's Transitional Care Center which I'm the Assistant Director of. And-- - Well, this is an interesting concept. What is called? What did you call it? - Well, our grand jargon says it's a Women's Transitional Care Center. - Women's Transitional Care Center? Okay. - We don't really have a name for it yet. - What kind of women would you like to help up? Or who would you visualize using now this center? - Clients I think will certainly be all women. It's organized for women. And it's organized by women. Women who have been beaten, low-income women who don't have any money, any resources, any access to resources, women who are in the process of a divorce who need a place to stay, who need help figuring out what they're going to do. It's designed for any woman who is going through any kind of change in her lifestyle or in her life, to help her through that change process and assist her in any way that we can. - So any woman in that situation could drop in when this center opens and there would be sympathetic people there to listen to them, to talk with them, let them stay overnight if they needed to? - Well, more than overnight. We plan on, it's a temporary staying basis, but residents could stay up to two to six months if they found that necessary. And the house is organized on a collective basis so that anyone staying in the house takes responsibility for the house. - I see. Mary, as the co-chair person of the commission's non-traditional students committee, what's a non-traditional student in your definition? - Okay. A non-traditional student is anyone who is continuing their education or just starting their education later in life. They may have worked, or had a family and the family is now raised, and they're coming back to school. I think you see some of the changes that the women's movement has made in society in general, because there are more older mature women. And I'm speaking anywhere from 30 to 50 years old, coming back and either finishing an undergraduate degree or starting an undergraduate degree. - Are you considering yourself a non-traditional student? - Yes, I do. Six years elapsed between the time when I completed high school and the time when I came back to college. I am 25 and I do have a small son. And in the six years transitional phase I worked and also took this time. It was a slow gradual consciousness raising through actual working in the business world. - The rest of you all went directly from high school to college? - Yes. - And have stayed through all the way through? What causes the necessity for anybody being a non-traditional? I mean, is this a problem in your opinion? A problem that anything could be done about through any of your organizations while students are on campus? - A non traditional, in what sense? In the sense that Mary just defined it? - Well, non-traditional, I think in the way Mary defined it? Yes. I think that's probably the usual definition of one who is out of phase according to what the society says is in phase, namely to go straight through the educational process all the way to the completion of whatever course of study you decided to go into. But we do know that many many women didn't do that. And we know that there are many right here and now who aren't doing it. Would you be concerned about all of the ones who aren't doing it? Some of them? And if so, who or none? - If it's a positive decision not to go to school then I wouldn't be concerned. I think too often women are pushed into, women and men are pushed into a professional or role simply to go to college and get a degree without an idea of how they will apply that when they get out. If it's not a positive goal and they simply had no choice because of financial matters or other kinds of responsibilities, then I think we need to be concerned with that kind of woman. - I presume it isn't exactly easy, is it, Mary, to come back? What are the problems that you see them coming to school out of phase? - Well, probably the first one is a feeling of alienation. And this of course would depend upon your age and circumstances, but you walk into these freshmen level classes and all the young women and men look so much younger than yourself. They seem to overwhelm me at times the way they speak. - Do tell me something, I've often wondered when someone has had a lot of life's experiences and comes to college at 25, 30. Sometimes even 50. Why is it that almost universally, they act as if they believe that the freshmen or the undergraduate students is so much smarter than they are and is more able to do the class work? Obviously they couldn't be, could they? 'Cause they have lived that long. - That's true. But I think they probably have the advantage of coming to school with good study skills. There has been no time lapse between reading a book and writing a report on it. This can be a very difficult thing when you first come back if you have not been in this practice, taking lecture notes, trying to keep up with the professor for the first time can be quite an experience in itself. - Can you, from your experience with other non-traditional students, give us any idea of how long that period last? How long is it before you feel comfortable and as able feel, think that you are as able as other students in the class to do the work? - Oh, I think most of us by the end of the first semester, and by the end of the first year, you really feel like you're into the swing of the university. - Is one of the purposes of the non-traditional committee to help in that transition? - Yes. At present, I don't feel that the university is geared to some of the problems of the non-traditional students and our committee would like to see more orientation materials applicable to the non-traditional student to help them over this, you know, probationary six months let's say, the time when people either decide to continue or drop out. And-- - I think that's an interesting point which is illustrative of a lot of other things as well. The chances of people thinking about the non-traditional student in terms of orientation materials and all the other things that happened is vastly improved if there's representation from that group. - Right. - Just as we think they see all decision-making processes that concern both men and women are vastly improved if both men and women are involved in the decision making on an ongoing basis. Not coming up afterwards to say, "Look this orientation material really didn't apply to me and you really should have known that." But all along the way, so that this kind of thing really doesn't happen. - Right. Well, unless you voice your opinion, I don't think the university would know that we're here. They can't make changes. They don't know what changes that we need. They don't know what kind of guidance in academic counseling that we would need. - And in all fairness, of course we should say some people don't. - That's true. - But they have because there is a great emphasis on outreach from our new chancellor, We have a new Director of Outreach. We have a continuing education program so that there are those who at least are making people aware of the fact that a larger percentage of students really aren't the ones the colleges were accustomed to dealing with. I think Barbara, you ought to tell us a little about this Women's Studies major because if anyone is listening who was graduated even a few years ago, she might very well be thinking, "What's that all about?" Because we had history and English and a lot of other subjects but when did a Women's Studies major become a possibility? - Well, it's a very recent program that even now hasn't developed into its own department. There isn't a women's studies department, per se. It's an interdisciplinary program reaching out to other departments to find what they have to offer in the way of studies concerning women. The courses that are available come from departments such as Physiology and Cell Biology, Education, Women in Art and many other departments. - English? Women in literature? Yes? - Yeah. - When you say is not yet a department, I saw two schools of thought on that certainty out there as to whether or not it's better to get it into each different area or to have a separate area. Where are you standing on that? - Well, I think if a university doesn't give women any kind of hassle to get this major, then it can still be from many departments. At the present time, it's necessary to get a petition to be a Women's Studies major. And it's a special major requiring 21 hours. So it's not generally accepted that that is the only major you take. You combine that with Psychology, or as in my case I'm combining it with Photojournalism. So I think if the university recognizes it as a school of study on its own, then it can be brought from other departments but to give Women's Studies the credit that it deserves it may be necessary to give it its own department which would require a lot more money and teachers which would be difficult. - How are, did I ask you before how you think things have changed just during the time that you've been in school? Do you see any difference now, Barbara, in the percentage of women who, you said there was more awareness, how much more do you want to make any estimates of how many of what percentage of the, let's say the undergraduate student body, seem to be pretty aware of what their status is? - Well, it's my personal opinion that there has been an increase of probably over 100% of the women that I know are aware of possibilities that are offered to them but there has been a great decrease, in my opinion, in the number of women who take advantage of what's available to them on this campus. - You see a decrease in the number who take advantage? - It seems to me that there were more women participating in women's programming when I was a freshmen than there are now. And it could in part be that the programs that are being offered are not receptive to women's needs, but if they aren't, we need the women to respond and tell us what they want. And for instance, in the Commission On The Status of Women to make suggestions or to talk to Janet Sera Stenion, who is the coordinator for Women's Studies and tell her what they need. I think women need to speak up more now than they used. - Now, could it possibly be that one of the reasons for your observation is that we do have more women who are aware and therefore don't have exactly the same needs that they had say, when you started college, that was three years ago? It is a possible interpretation, isn't it? What do you think, Darren? - My interpretation is that many of the women who aware three years ago, and many of the women who became involved in activities like February Sisters, and had a very strong commitment to change this university and make it more responsive to women are totally burned out now because they didn't get the response that they need. And don't have the energy any longer to deal with this university. - Anybody else have an opinion? What's happened since you've been here? - Well, I've found just in the short time that I've been here that women are more assertive than they used to be and they don't actually need the group. The supportive group. This isn't all, but some do not need the support a group. They're able to get it from within themselves. - I mean, as much as they once did need. You have an opinion Fey or? - I don't know, I've encountered a little bit of both that they were expressing. I've encountered where, you know, women are more aware and that they have been involved, but it seems to me also it's the same women over and over again. And it's a very small group of women and it's a core group of women. And the base has not really spread in my estimation and going along with what Barb said, I don't know if it's that we haven't met their needs or exactly what to attribute that to. But I would really like to get more women involved and not only the commission, but other women's programs that are occurring all over campus. - I don't know, from my perspective that I entirely agree with your interpretation. It seems to me that in some areas, for example in careers, we have far more women who, have far fewer women let's say who are viewing themselves as not likely to ever to make use of a college education. This is one step certainly forward. Although this might be viewed as vocationalism, you know, just to seeking security rather than really seeking did to prepare yourself to do the kind of thing that you're going to have to do, something you know, the vast majority of your life. It seems to me that there's an increase in that. In terms of the kind of activism that Tony is talking about, the February Sisters. You may recall, those of you in the radio audience that February Sisters were a group who took over a building. How many years ago was that during? - It was in February of 1972. - 1972, uh-huh. In order to dramatize some demands that they had for attention, which was badly needed. And certainly some progress was made. One of the demands you remember was for the appointment of an affirmative action board and the establishment of an affirmative action office. And those things were done. There are steps that may not have been taken nearly as quickly if February Sisters had acted in this tremendously dramatic way. But you know, each person has her own opinion as to what really is happening. Do you think, for instance, Tony and the the organization you told us about, the Lawrence Women United that this would have been possible let's say when you first came up? Could you have started there? - Well, I think that the reason Lawrence Women United is happening now, and the reason that we have 100 to 150 women every month show up at our pile of dinners and discuss things that they want to see happen. Is because a lot of those women don't feel that there's an organization now in existence, which is responsive to them. - Well, if you have that many people showing up, that's certainly more, I think, than you would have had showing up say your freshman year in college. Isn't it-- - Probably so. - I think that it indicates that they're more at least aware of some of the basic things. And we have talked to Christmas program many times about some of the real basics. The fact that 9 out of 10 women who are in college today will be working the majority of their lives. And everybody can be the 10th person. We also of course have a tremendous increase as Mary said, and in assertiveness on the part of women of not just hanging back, and allowing other people to make decisions for them. So at least tonight, I'm not as pessimistic as I sometimes am, depending upon who I'm talking to. I think some progress has been made, but there is much much more that remains to happen. There are some women, for example, wouldn't be a bit interested in my statistic on that. 9 out of 10 working, but it's still true. And we always have to face our reality. We have to do something. And in order to be able to exist. And unless, I don't know of any certainly none of you people I presume would be of the school of thought that that really ought to be provided for us by someone else on whom we were dependent. Could you? What do you see is the course of things to come or what are your plans? And those are the people that you know beyond the undergraduate years? Are most people really planning on at least getting a degree now? We used to have a lot of people who came to college you know, just for a year or so, and really had no intention of getting a degree in the first place. So has that changed in here? Or do you have any way of knowing that? - Well, I know all the people in my committee. The non-traditional students are very much here a degree and they usually come with a specific goal in mind. I don't-- - Well-- - Oh, I'm sorry. - Go ahead. - I was just gonna say a lot of the women I have come in contact with are going the route of possibly pursuing graduate school or another professional school, or possibly sitting out for year and working and then possibly going to graduate school. So they're definitely thinking along those lines. - Heard it's 30 seconds left. Tony, you had started to say something. - Well, a lot of the women that I come into contact with are in college now but are seriously considering leaving because they find that this university doesn't have what they need. - What do they need? - That it takes too much energy to... Oh, things like right now the women's center is battling for space in the union. When half the women, half the students on this college are women. And it just seems to me that a women's center should be not even considered as something which should have to present statistics to show that it's necessary. - I'm sorry that our time is up. Our program tonight has been Roles of College Women, A Campus Update with our guests, all undergraduate students. You are in Teutonia. - Right there. - Tony Kramer, Feydot Hime, Mary Kelly and Barbara O'Brien. We hope you'll join us again next week. At which time we will be discussing the male feminist.