- Good evening, welcome to A Feminist's Perspective. Our topic tonight is the male feminist. And our guests are Bobby Patton, Bill Robinson, Doug Whitt, and Walter Smith. We also have by chance tonight a guest moderator, Bonnie Patton who's the executive secretary of the Montgomery County Commission for Women. And I'm going to ask her to assist me with thinking of the right questions to try to clarify what does this mean, the term male feminist? Is it a contradiction of terms? Is there something better that could be used to describe the kind of man that we're talking about? So why don't we start with asking you men to tell us what is your conception of what is a male feminist? You wanna start Bill?

- The term is brand new to me. In fact until Walter called a week or so ago and suggested this program, I hadn't looked for a label. And I certainly hadn't come up with one such as male feminist. There was a little kidding about it. Some people said male feminist, is that the same thing as a female man? And I think I responded appropriately to the kidding.

- Do any of you men think that this term is meaningful?

- Yeah I'll support the term. It seems to me that now we think in terms of feminist, we have the title to show the feminist perspective. And we have certain goals that a lot of us share in terms of where we feel as individuals in society we should be moving. And I see it as a perfectly acceptable term if we're talking about males who support and work toward the accomplishment of the goals of the feminist movement.

- How do you feel about it Doug?

- I think I would agree with Bobby that I don't see male feminist as describing by all means the entirety of my goals with regard to changing sex roles. But I think in terms of my endorsement of the feminist movement and feminist objectives that I can buy that completely.

- Do you have an opinion Walter?

- Well I think it's a fine term. I think has been said it describes men who are trying to support the goals of the women's movement. So I think it's a very descriptive title.

- And I think that there's some misconception that it's one versus the other. That it's male goals versus female goals. And from my own point of view I see it as a situation that compliments one another. That by working in support of feminist goals, that as males that we have every bit as much to gain as women.

- Anybody else have an opinion on it or Bonnie you wanna comment on the term?

- Yeah I was just thinking the question wouldn't arise if one spoke of maybe 5 or 10 years ago a white civil rights activist. In other words it wouldn't be expected that any white person supporting other civil rights movements would thereby change their color or their surnames. And I think probably the question, this is the same sort of question.

- Very interesting point. When you talk about the goals of the feminist movement, do you see those goals in the same way as women see them? Women who are active in trying to consider themselves a part of the feminist movement? Or do you see any differences in the way in which you would view the goals themselves, not the methods of arriving at them but the goals themselves?

- I think speaking for myself I would imagine that I have similar objectives for the women's movement as a women would have. But I can put never myself exactly in the place of a women so I couldn't say that I had exactly the same goals. But certainly I'm concerned about expanding opportunities for all people and particularly women in this case.

- We look at such things as equality under the law and opening and removing barriers that have existed. I think on all issues such as this I find myself in agreement.

- You know there's one thing that keeps cropping up in questions that people ask me or in comments that they make. All of the anti-discrimination laws that I know of have no reference to male or female, is that correct? It's anti-discrimination laws on the basis of sex, as making judgements on the basis of sex. So of course they actually are just as important for men as they are for women. So without going too far into the question of whether or not there are better terms that might be used, at least it's understandable to me that this term was used for men who were supportive of the goals of the feminist movement. Suppose that, do you men know anyone, since you're all men who are married to women who are themselves active in attempting to bring about the goal of equality, of opportunity for everyone. Do you know of any men that you would consider male feminists who are married to women who do not support the goals of equality, of opportunity?

- Speaking personally I don't know of anyone and I find it difficult to imagine such a situation. Any of you?

- No I don't think I have in fact ever met a situation in which a man wasn't to some extent facilitating and entering the movement by a relationship with a woman who already was sensitized to the awareness of the feminist issues. It's kind of a neat idea. I guess I would like to be able to say yes I do know or yes I am one but I honestly can't say that I have ever met one.

- I've heard men who talked or wanted to be taken as feminist who were married to women who had not yet called themselves feminist. But it generally came out in some form of I want you to get my wife to do this, I think this would be good for her. And immediately the choice has been removed from the woman. So what the man has said comes to me as a contradiction in terms already.

- Like a form of manipulation.

- Yeah, so I smile and say that's interesting, that's nice and go away.

- I not only don't know a man such as the type that you were describing. If I did know one, I think I would have some questions. Well, not questions, I would be very curious about the nature of that relationship. That kind of comment comes entirely out of my own experience with the women, and in fact most of the women that I know or consider friends are certainly sensitized to the feminist perspective. I think it would be almost impossible for a relationship to exist where the man was sensitized and the woman was not sensitized. Just on the basis of the traditional stereotypes within a marriage relationship. I think that would be a good deal more complex than for example if the women were sensitized and the man were not. Because certainly we all know of situations such as that.

- I asked that question on impulse so I'm thinking about answers too. And again perhaps we're talking about a contradiction of terms. But as you were talking I was thinking about comments that had been made to me by a number of men indicating that they recognized a problem which their wife had. Which was a need for her but hadn't become clear as a problem. And were interested in having her pursue her own goals because perhaps her motives weren't very good. But it would seem to me there wouldn't be anything wrong with the motive of recognizing that the marriage was not going to be as successful if the women did not pursue her own goals. And if she was operating out of a societal expectation that she play a role which wasn't right for her. I don't know that you'd call the man a male feminist. But at least it would be a recognition of some needs that might not yet have become a problem for the women in whom he was most interested. Does that make any sense to you?

- Yes I think as a relationship style that even before we had such terms as feminist or at least being used the way it is today that we would have relationship situation where each partner was trying to create a situation where each could grow. And I think this is now at the heart of the feminist movement. Where there is an opportunity for growth for both partners as opposed to the male growing at the expense of the female.

- Maybe I'm slow to get the point but I still think there's a danger involved, even in that type of situation such as you described. It seems to me that that particular situation comes very close to being one in which one partner, in this case the man, is giving permission to the other partner, in this case the women, to engage in something that the man has decided would be beneficial. And I don't generate very much enthusiasm for that kind of permission giving on an issue such as this one. It goes back very closely to the analogy that Bonnie used a moment ago with the white civil rights worker type of thing.

- Yeah I was thinking that the man who's talking to you Emily is talking to some really well known classy woman. Well that's a discussion that makes him look really good and comes off once again, he's not talking to his wife at that moment, he's talking to you. And he comes off looking really terrific and liberal but I don't know why he's not talking to his wife. He's racking up points and she's doing the dishes I suppose because she hasn't seen the light. And he comes off looking really good and she comes off way behind.

- Well then let me approach it from another way. Doug you're the psychologist, do you ever run into situations of this kind in a marital problem where the man does have a recognition of a need which his wife has not recognized?

- Yes I think as you were describing the situation it was giving me a little bit different perspective on one way to consider a male feminist before a woman might have become one. I think my tendency however is to see it as needing to be clarified one step further. When I hear people saying I'm interesting in what's best for you honey. And what's best for you is to go out and get a job and be freeer, I get downright skeptical. And if the person can take that one step further and say I'm really unhappy in this, I'm unhappy in the responsibilities that are mine in our relationship and I'd like to change it. In order for that to happen it has to be a mutual change. Then I can think we can approach the situation where maybe the man is providing the impetus. But I think it has to come from his own needs and his own felt discomfort with the traditional male role in order to really free up the woman rather than becoming a subtle and possible liberal form of manipulation.

- Can you think of how you might suggest to a man who is troubled in this way of what he could do that would make a more open relationship with his wife?

- Well I think what I was talking in terms of a first step simply being experiencing in some kind of relationship. And I guess I always hope when a person's working with me in therapy that I can provide that, a place to be heard in a way that's gonna clarify their own needs and feelings. I think once a person finds out where they're operating from, what needs they're expressing in their behavior, it becomes a little bit easier to plan a strategy. Another thing I think that all of us would probably support though is finding some kind of community with other men who have shared similar experiences and possibly have some alternative solutions. And a final point that I heard Bonnie talking to is of course it helps if they can open up communications between the two partners involved in the relationship. Oftentimes I find each person in their own corner saying I'm really dissatisfied with this and isn't it too bad you won't let me change? And once they get together and talk about it they find surprise they have similar feelings of a need to change. I'm amazed how often that seems to be a habit people develop of not communicating.

- A few months ago, I think it was in March of this year, the US News and World Report, which I guess is not noted for it's liberalism. Had a rather interesting article called Now Men's Lib is the Trend. Your comment on the men getting together with other men to discuss the matter reminded me of this. Most of the article however deals with hostilities that have been generated by the goals of the feminist movement. Starting out with the laws against sex discrimination and commenting that wives are going to work in greater and greater numbers. And this is creating some problems both for husbands and for the men with whom this woman works. According to the writer of this article the responses range all the way from favorable, which would be really the male feminist to downright hostility. Now most of the illustration that are given here are of men who have entered traditionally women's field. You know like men becoming nurses or telephone operators or secretaries or this kind of thing. At the end of the article there is a quotation from Warren Farrell who has set up a course called Sexual Politics at American University. Who says women's liberation means a chance for men to break free from restrictive stereotyped sex roles. To get to know women as full fledged partners in life, not sex objects to be dominated or put on a pedestal. Have any of you men ever had any experience with this kind of male group? They came together for this purpose to try to understand and understand their own feelings, and understand what was happening to them.

- I had an experience once I think two years ago, a group that lasted for neighborhood of 12 months. That never formalized a goal quite as explicitly I think as what Warren Farrell's describing. But I think in the informal process really was pursuing that goal. Most of us had some experience with women who were changing their lifestyles, changing their values and their perspectives. So some of it I think was in reaction to that. Some of it was in reaction to our recognized and felt needs to explore some of the ways in which we were feeling limited and burdened. The group itself I think provided a very supportive and for me a very successful situation and climate in which to do that. And in which to get some perspective on what was in it for me, what was in for women, what was in it for men in general.

- Yeah the way that Farrell likes to set up the programs or does it the most regularly is to have men meet in one group, for a period of months at any rate. And women, not necessarily partners to the men but meeting in another group for months. And then the same thing Doug was saying in a way to get back together at some point. Once they've been able to be separate, to clarify their goals and to share. Then to bring that back into the human arena in another sense, back with women trying to see now can, well is it gonna fly, will it work? And so after a period of months of meeting separately with the men and the women then he tries to get them back. And sometimes it seems like a lot of steps backward. Soon as they get together again, but it seems to work out well on the long run.

- Would you be supportive that this is a reasonable thing to do?

- Yes, yes.

- Yes.

- I would be supportive that it's a reasonable thing to do but I can't say that out of any experience. In fact I've been puzzled as to what it is about me or about some men, or maybe men in general, I don't know. That really has created what feels to be almost a formal prohibition against formalizing any kind of structure within a group of men trying to work through their own consciousness levels or simply to raise questions. Maybe without the specific goal of consciousness raising. For some reason I have not have any success in either affiliating with an ongoing group of that nature or in generating such a group.

- I have heard some women who are active in the women's movement oppose these groups as giving examples of cases where they have degenerated into just sympathizing with one another, crying on one another's shoulders about the horrors of it all. What would you say would be necessary in order to set up a group such as Farrell describes so that this would not happen? So that they really could deal with the issues.

- Well and one more contradictory sort of answer, I don't think there's any need to do that. I think that my own experience in women's consciousness raising groups has been the naval watching and the crying and the pitiful us and everybody saying yes may take a few months. But it's necessary or has been for me because at some point the women all look at each other and say so where do we go from here? And without the support that you have first, and without the time to say poor pitiful me and look what's happening to me or whatever, you don't reach the point where you finally look well is this the way we wanna live the rest of our lives, just old pitiful me? And the answer is no we don't wanna live this way forever. So you come out of it. I don't see it as time wasted or any need to try to avoid it. I see it as necessary for women. And we have learned to cry together many many years ago. And maybe even more important for men would be my guess.

- Would it require a catalyst of any kind or could you visualize a group of men getting together with no one who's already sensitized to the issue?

- I don't think it takes anyone being sensitized to the issue. I think what it does take is some sort of felt need that certain things are happening and happening to me and happening to my life over which I don't have control. And being able to share this with other men who might have similar feelings, similar concerns. And then trying to work through in terms of why we feel the way we feel, what might be alternatives that are available, and where do we go from here? And this is something that the group itself has to handle. But as has been the experience with women's conscious raising group, it doesn't take any preconceived orientation on the part of one or another member or leader. It's something that just evolves in the group.

- Well would you at least have to get together for the express purpose of discussing this? Certainly men get together in groups all the time. Have you ever been in a group with men where this became the topic even though you got together to play bridge or poker or something?

- I think it has to be an ongoing group and I think it has to be designated as having some commitment. Whether the term is male liberation or consciousness raising. I think there has to be some commitment to the idea of dealing seriously with issues of feeling that are not merely the blow session type of discussion that typically characterize let's say a poker game or sports event or party. It has to be something where there is time. I don't think there has to be a fixed agenda in terms of these are the items that we're going to discuss. But I think there has to be a commitment on the part of each person there to discuss in depth real feelings.

- Well then someone has to get this kind of group together and someone said it didn't require anyone who was sensitized. So how do you visualize that such a thing could happen if no one was sensitized to the issues?

- Well the way it all started on this campus was that after the moratorium weekend two women went around nailing up posters. One was Sally Gearheart and I can't remember who the other one was. Know when we had to have classes but there were no teachers and there were no students. There were just posters around. And about 40 or 45 women gathered the first time and then 40 or 45 women gathered the second time. And then we met and out of that came some groups that lasted a very long time. It really took posters and a room and it only took two people to start the whole consciousness raising behavior per se on this campus several years ago.

- I think I would disagree to some extent with the ease of which groups can start. I think especially for men, somewhat because I see the women that you're talking about for example Bonnie as already having some sensitization and awareness that gave them a clue at least what they didn't want to have happen. And maybe some general feelings about what they did want to have happen. My experience with groups of men is that we all have such well developed habits of how to relate and how not to relate in ways that might be risky, strange, different that I think it almost does require someone or a group commitment to have an agenda that's different. To have an experience in which you can experiment with behaviors that you haven't tried. And I find that facilitated by at least a catalyst in the sense of either one individual or a group designated agenda, a group designated exercise.

- Any other comments on that?

- Well yeah we just got the five minute sign and I keep wondering if there may be in this audience men who are sitting there saying well so now what? I mean is there a phone number? Are any of these guys gonna help? What's gonna happen now? If it's there and the program's working and there are fellows who are saying I want that kind of agenda, who's gonna put up the poster, I'm ready. Can anything now happen?

- There's not a poster. It wouldn't take much to create one I suspect. But there is an agency or an organization that I think would very willingly host such response from the audience or the non audience or whatever. And that's the Lawrence chapter of The National Organization for Women. We have tried on a couple of occasions through that organization to involve men and women in some sort of formalized structure that could lead to the generation of consciousness raising or sharing groups.

- Could you give us a number? Of course you could always call the information service,

- Sure.

- That's what we usually say. Call the information service 3506, 864-3506 and we see to it that there people are directed towards someone who could help in a situation of this kind. It could be something as simple as the man who can't understand why it is that when he's trying to help with the housework that his wife is considering it as tokenism instead of an honest desire to help. It could be a genuine concern that somehow or another the man feels that if his wife who has not previously worked decides she wants to get a job, that somehow this is a reflection on him. We could think of a dozen other kinds of things. If there's any sort of feeling of discomfort would suggest that you call the information service, 864-3506 and you would be referred then to somebody who would be able to help you to get together with others to discuss these problems. Any other suggestions any of you have to make or kinds of people that you think might be interested in such an enterprise?

- Well just from past experience, I know you can't characterize a type of people because wide group of age, educational background, experience, the one thing in common is the fact that there are changes taking place in our interpersonal relationships. And the fact that sometimes we do need some outside help or we need people to talk to in terms of how to deal with them. I think this felt need is rather widespread.

- So far I think although there are many agreements and disagreements among people, the one thing I believe is true is that these men's consciousness raising groups have been pretty limited to well educated middle class people. But that does not mean that others don't face problems also or needs to increase their understandings of what's happening. Because of course it's a nationwide phenomenon and it's a worldwide phenomenon actually and involves everyone.

- Absolutely.

- Any closing comments that any of you care to make? We can only touch the surface, the very tip of the iceberg in a half hour discussion.

- Yeah well it would seem good not to feel bad if you happen to be well educated and middle class. That may just mean that you have the time to concentrate on concerns that are concerns of everybody. Same with women who have been there. The models can get set up and make it easier for all the rest.

- We have discussed tonight in A Feminist's Perspective the question of male feminism, which is only one among many terms being used to refer to the man who is committed to the goals of the women's movement. Our guests have been Bobby and Bonnie Patton, Bill Robinson, Doug Whitt, and Walter Smith. We hope that you'll join us again next Monday at 7:30 for A Feminist's Perspective.