- Good evening, welcome to A Feminist Perspective. Our topic tonight is women in politics a first of a series of two and tonight we're going to talk about the changing roles of women in politics. Our panel consists of Margaret Jordan, district attorney from Johnson County, Kansas, Mary Wilson the Douglas County Republican Vice Chairperson and Betty Jo Charlton, the Douglas County Democratic committee worker. I'd like to start out by asking each one of you to tell us how did you personally get involved in politics? When did it all begin and were you in it all the way through your adult life, or how would you define it? Mary, why don't you start? How'd you get involved?

- Well, I had a father who thought that was the absolute necessity of life. I was raised in it, it was a privilege, it was an honor, it was an obligation, so I guess you'd have to say I didn't really start out with a choice.

- Did you do do anything when you were in high school for instance or was it after you were married or?

- Oh no, I did something all my life in some capacity or another, if it was nothing but handing out handbills, I would suppose I got deeper into it after I got a little bit more into my adulthood. I had a heavy drafting from our own Bob Ellsworth and probably jumped in with both feet at that time, heavier than I ever, but always I have had in some capacity served, including the licking of stamps.

- How did you decide to be a Republican or were you just always a Republican too?

- No, I believe in the Republican philosophy, but it could very well be because that was the philosophy I was raised by, I wouldn't question that, but I still believe in free enterprise and the lack of big government and big brother not watching over me and that's just my particular philosophy and I followed it always and probably will from now on.

- I see, and how about you, Betty Jo, how'd you get involved?

- Well I too was rooted in family, was conscious of politics and political affairs, but I wasn't actively involved until 1966, the first time Robert Docking ran for governor and the Democratic party in Kansas was trying to have a candidate for every seat, for the Kansas House of Representatives, and the district I lived in, excuse me, the seat was held by a man who had been incumbent for about three terms and nobody else was willing to run against him, and so I started out as a candidate and two years later, still no one else was willing to run against him and so I was a candidate again and since that time I've been active in the party locally and helping local candidates.

- That's interesting starting out as a candidate. Have you ever been a candidate Mary for anything?

- No, no and I have no desire to be a candidate.

- Don't why not?

- Well, I guess I'm lazy. I just like doing the work. I don't really want to get out and make the effort to run for anything, never have wanted to.

- All right, how about you, Margaret, how did you get started?

- Well, I'm kind of a contrast to our other two panel members. My only brush with politics was having a father who was on a small city council that was very much of a gentlemanly volunteer chart and running as a ride in candidate for the Greenberg township, New Jersey Board of Education to oppose the firehouse gang that had controlled the school for ever since the township had been in existence. I have never worked as a political worker, I have never been anything in politics but a candidate, so that I have as Mary talks about it, always had to run for my life when it came to a political matter, because it was something in which I was personally involved. Now, of course, I started out by erupting in a fit of peak at something that was going off at City Hall and marching up and filing my petition. The city of Lee was a city of 12,000 and this has been the beginning of my political career and that was in 1966, so I have come very late to the scene of politics.

- I read the other day that one of the real contrast between the women and men in politics is that 75% of the women who were running for office started after the age of 40, whereas only 10% of the men had not previously run for office before the age of 40. You have any theories on that as to why that is? Or is it desirable, undesirable or how do you feel about just any of them?

- Well I was past 40 when I ran for the Kansas House the first time. I think before that, if someone had approached me I would have said I was too busy. I belong to that to post-World War II generation of young women that according to some of the writers was told that we should go, back to our homes and raise our children and just play our natural role and so I would have thought-

- Natural in their opinion anyway.

- Yes.

- Any other theories as to why women start so late?

- Most of them are playing that role whether it's anybody's opinion or not. I would have to assume that the major portion of women I have a niece, for instance who is now running for city council in Florida and she's just past 40, she's an extremely intelligent young woman who graduated Magna Cum Laude from Indiana and she raised her family and now she's branching out. I don't know whether it's a role that was assigned or anything else, I think it was her free choice that she wanted that, certainly had I been a candidate, very likely I would have done it too, after I was past the child bearing capacities.

- Well we're supposed to be talking about change here now and I might mention that there is now this year there's a young woman in Davis County running for the Kansas House of Representatives and she's 24 and she has a four year old child. And I think the last time we met, I mentioned that when I was a candidate several years ago, the only thing that the opposition could think of to say was well, why didn't she stay at home and take care of her husband and family? And I don't believe that the young woman this 24 year old has heard that yet, I haven't heard anyone say this about her.

- Well I have no doubt there are some who were saying it but it is true that in terms of the change there are many young women who were running now.

- I doubt very much if there is a criticism over that there would have been, say 10 years ago if a 24 year old woman with a young child had been a candidate.

- I think that also you can't overlook the subject of change that takes place through child-rearing and being deeply involved in more and more responsible activities. The problem of women and this is one thing that I thoroughly agree with Betty Friedan about, is that they have been trained that they have no judgment, that they have no image, that they are sex such objects. and by the time you reach 40, you say how the heck, if I want to get something changed I guess I'm going to have to do it myself and that's when you march up and stand up and be counted. You don't think of it as a career so much, as being willing to stand up and be counted for something you sincerely think needs to be done.

- I couldn't disagree more with anybody then that kind of a theory that you were raised that way. I wasn't raised that way, I was raised in a family with three boys and an only girl and I was taught that I was important. It didn't make a difference what my sex was, I was important and if I had something to say I was supposed to say it. If I had something I wanted to do, I was supposed to do it. Nobody assigned any kind of a role to me.

- Now surely, you realize how unusual this is. You and I were the exception.

- Very possibly the exception, but you don't necessarily have to be, hopefully I raised my daughters the same way that they are important people in their own right, they're not competing with men, they're doing the best they can do with what they have to do with it. It was that simple.

- If you're going to compete there I'd be competing with anybody, man or women.

- You'd be competing with themselves and doing the best they know how to do.

- But you would admit wouldn't you, that Margaret is right, that that's the exception, rather than the rule.

- I couldn't say I was only raised by one person, a father and two people rather, father and mother, so I couldn't say.

- You must have observed what's happening in general though there aren't very many men who are involved. What are the prisons statistics just in case anybody doesn't know?

- I have a few numbers here, as far as candidates for public, well for the House of Representative Kansas only for this year and four years ago and party officers in the party organizations in Kansas. Dean Taylor, and in 1970 there were 15 women who were Democrat County Chairman and 17 women who Republican County Chairman. Now, of course, they're 105 counties in Kansas and the law has regarding party organization has never stood in the way of women. The law says simply that the County chairman and vice chairman shall be of the opposite sex.

- So it could have been either way.

- It could have been either way, but and of course not in both, the counties are not organized in every county, so this is not out of 250 people, or out of 105 counties but nearly so, nearly all the parties are both major parties, are organized in nearly all the counties. Now that was in 1970, four years ago and in 1974, I got this out of a little booklet Kansas The Voters Guide, it's available at Blake Hall from the six four, by the instituted, what is it? Why does ISIS?

- I don't know, they send them through the mail.

- Whatever, yes so they're available, they're free up there. All right, the state chairman of all four parties in Kansas, you know we do have four parties, Republican, Democratic, Prohibition, American, the chairman are men, the district chairman of all four parties are all men. The County chairman, there's 16 women Democrats and 15 women Republicans. All right, there are 21 women County chairmans in the two major parties, 22 four years ago I don't see much change.

- Things have gone down a little bit.

- As a party organization. All right, candidates for the Kansas House, there are 125 seats in the Kansas house, but they're, some of these seats are uncontested, a few of them are, so this does not mean 250 candidates, but in 1970 there were eight women running for the Kansas House and in 1974 there are 16 women running for the Kansas House. Now that's doubling the number, but that's still not very many out for 125 seats, for our first say 250 candidates. And running for Congress from Kansas in 1970, no women candidates, in 1974 two women candidates. Martha Keys running the second district as a Democrat and Thelma Morgan running in the first district on American ticket.

- Anybody else have any comments on this on what's actually happening in terms of change?

- I would agree, with the feeling behind those figures, because there's no doubt that women are starting to get out from behind the coffee pot and be willing to go up and say it in person. I think that in terms of the experience to be put at the disposal of the state to cut off by sects, half of the people that have ideas, viewpoints of a management perspective, is simply wasting our political resources. And I think that anything that we can do to encourage greater participation is urgently needed.

- And more overall picture since the goal is that they have things in some proportion to the population as it actually exists, to give an idea of how far we are from the goal we might look at these figures. Certainly there's been a breakthrough, it's just a start. We certainly haven't seen the end of it yet, because there are additional women all the time who were running, but this would require if it really equitable this would mean we'd have to have 25 women governors. How many do we have now?

- None.

- None.

- With the one possible.

- With one possible, it seems like pretty good possibility in Connecticut, we'd have to have 3,750 women at state legislatures. This year we had 402, that's out of the 7500 state legislatures. We had no women senators, there is a possibility of two this year. I guess only one is considered a strong possibility. In the House of Representatives, how many we'd have to have a 218? We had 16 this year, four of whom have retired. Although there are quite a number of women who are running and as one woman put it, as people speculate on what difference it would make what she said was that anytime you change the nature of the people who were in the legislature, or in the Congress, you're going to have a different Congress and then, or a different legislature. You're going to have people who are concerned about issues from different points of view. They may be the same issues ultimately, but concerned about them from different points of view. Do you think it's likely to, what change do you see likely as in the future? Is this just a temporary aberration and those people are going to go back to the way it was or will we see increasing numbers of women running for office?

- Well, I think that we are going to see, not just in terms of increasing number of candidates for office, I soon think we're going to see a great deal more participation by women in all roles that were traditionally male. And I think the biggest change is brought about, by the attitude of the young married men, the educated men of the upcoming generation. I can recognize that among the young lawyers in my own office, to them the jobs that they have are complementary to the jobs that their wife has, whether they move for a promotion is a joint decision. How they spend their time outside the office is a joint decision. There is not this automatic relegation of sexist roles that I fix the fences once a year and you wash the dishes three times a day. I think that that is a noticeable change in attitude, I think brought into other areas, that this is going to lead to more confidence, because this is what really the feminist movement to my mind, is all about give them the confidence to try it.

- Anybody have different opinion or?

- Well I don't have any different opinion. I do have definite ideas with regard to whether women or whoever may run for public office that I'm looking for is competence ability, know how, I don't think it's the least bit important whether it's a man or a woman. If there are Margaret Jordan sure, they ought to run if they're not a Marvin Jordan, stay home and stuff envelopes. Point that I think we need

- How about some of the males who are in there?

- Nothing wrong with I know a few men that do a little stuffing of envelopes too, the point that I feel is so dog gone important is that we get competence, people who know what they're doing and how they're doing. I am not in the least bit impressed with somebody who decides, I should be doing this or that, because I'm a woman. I have never paid any attention to it and I'm not likely to start now, if we've got women that are competent, just don't put them in there because we've gotta balance something, let's put them in there because they know what they're doing and they can do it well, they can do it better than someone else could do it. That to me is the whole crux of the whole political system. I can remember and I'm sure some of the others maybe not you younger ones here, but in my younger days.

- Wonder which one's she's talking about.

- We kept reelecting Andrew Shepple to the Senate, not because he thought he was a competent senator, but he looked like a senator. Well, big deal, I may know a few women who may look like senators, but let's not elect them just because they look like senators, let's elect them because they're there to do a job and to do it right. And why worry? In my opinion anyway, whether we have the equal number of governors or senators or what else let's look for competence and if we find it women, let's push the women. Push them right up the line.

- You know of any evidence that there's less competence among women than among men?

- No, no, none at all, I don't know of any.

- Then as we look at the statistics they're rather revealing aren't they?

- The women themselves think they're less competent because if they didn't think that, then obviously they're not going to. All right then it's just catching them re-educating the women isn't it?

- That was Margaret's point Mary. That was precisely her point.

- Where do you go about doing that?

- Well you started..

- It had to have started way back down when they were little.

- I think you'll have to stop saying Mary, you'll have to stop telling them though, nobody's foots on your neck, because figuratively, I'm afraid there has been.

- Not on mine.

- Well, but if you're going to educate other women, those that you were just talking about who may be competent, but who don't have the self-confidence, I think maybe it could be more helpful.

- Where are they going to go through the rest of their life thinking that somebody's, I can't do this because somebody's foot's on my neck? Something of that sort?

- I think that there's a practical point of view, and I have a standing offer in my county that anyone, from any party, man, woman, young or old, that has something to say and wants to become involved in politics, I will consult with them and help them write a campaign outline, give them advice on timing, the practicalities of how much money, how many workers, what your timing schedule would be. And I think that you can have all the philosophical considerations you want, but I think anybody that makes it has an absolute duty to put a hand down and hoist somebody else up.

- Well I can't argue that, nothing wrong with that.

- I think that this is one thing, because many men they run a better bluff Mary, let's put it that way. But I think many men from talking to neophyte to office haulers, feel just as terrified about what am I doing here? But I think that they will be more prone to leap the gap and try it, than many women will. And this is why I say they, if we can focus on the philosophy of the value of having candidates that are defeated, that they have something to say, that you serve a purpose merely by winning, I mean, by losing, just being up there and giving the other side of the question, that winning is not the whole point of the political game. I think that that would encourage a lot more people to come in that might otherwise feel, well it's maybe it's being a lawyer, I know that half the suits you're going to lose. Somebody is going to lose half of them.

- Speaking of being a lawyer, there's certainly some connection there too isn't there with a small number of women who have gone into law school? And part of that's been a question of they're not noticing, not considering that as an option and part of it's been a question of access. These problems are certainly being worked at now and the possibility of getting into law school for a woman is probably about as good as it is for a man, if she really gets past that first stage. But many of the people who go into politics are lawyers and since most lawyers have been men, this may bring about a change too, as more women now go into the laws as a career. 'Cause I don't personally think that all our legislators ought to be lawyers.

- Oh, heavens no, we need some common sense to balance that.

- It isn't a particular characteristic or a political system, it has been.

- But it's fading, the Kansas legislature has a far less proportion of lawyers than now, than it has had traditionally.

- Well it had lawyers and farmers, I think farmers outnumbered the lawyers. Its not going in the other direction I think. We probably need all kinds of people, in all kinds of walks of life, if everything is to be considered, that ought to be, before a bill is passed or even for that matter introduced. Do you think that there are any positions within the American political structure that a women should not aspire to or start getting prepared for?

- No. The other hand, I think that there are many positions in, not just in politics, not just an elective but an appointed life that are crying for a woman's viewpoint. And I think that there's a lot of value in starting with appointments. I know that when I was mayor, I made a deliberate effort to recruit women to serve on city committees, get their feet wet, get them mad enough, involved enough so that they would go on to the elective process. But 'cause that's pretty heady stuff, you need a strong head to withstand the elective process.

- So you really, in terms of helping to get women involved in, I think that one starting place is in, is sustained public service of any kind.

- Yes and this is one of the things we've always actively recruited women as political bond here is not in a Republican, Democratic. I'm talking about in public service, I have recruits that work in my consumer fraud division for now in the office I have, recruits volunteers for the Drug Abuse Council, for we're setting up special volunteer parole projects. There's a lot of people that can get involved in something and if they don't want to do bandages or, any kind of the traditional volunteer roles, there's plenty of work.

- Well, you know, I am inclined to venture the opinion that if you're going to want to get all these women involved in these things, that what you need or do are buttonhole the Margaret Jordan's of this world and a woman who obviously felt not that she'd been put down or she wouldn't have attained the place that she has and educate women to think of how they feel about themselves, not about how someone feels about them. Now, that seems to me to be the crux of the situation and all this Mickey Mouse about the role that's been assigned, maybe they ought to devote more Margaret Jordan's times to convincing women that, there hasn't really been any role assigned to them, that they can do about anything they want to do, if they think well enough of themselves to try to do it.

- Well, I think we would agree with you, we'd probably all agree with you on that, that they, but not that the roles haven't been assigned to women because we know they have been assigned, not only to women but they've been assigned to men too.

- Not only in our culture, but in every culture.

- That's right.

- There's something interesting, I noticed earlier in our conversation Margaret expressed the same reason for giving women equal rights in politics that John Stuart Mill did in the 19th century. His reason was it tied in with his utilitarian principle, that if women were not allowed to vote and participate in politics and business, then society as a whole suffered because it was deprived of their services. And of course John's Stuart Mill's political philosophy fits very very nicely with Mary's ideas that she's expressed about her political philosophy, so I don't think you'll both find a father in John Stuart Mill.

- Well, I think you're right, because the very fact that we waited for so many years even to get the right to vote, would give us some indication of assigned roles. You couldn't deny that could you Mary.

- Well, no, I wouldn't argue that point, although you did come a little bit before my time not too far I understand, that a little bit before my time.

- Well, it's not before your time now that we have yet failed to ratify the equal rights of women, so we're a little behind I think the actual belief systems of the country, very few people would deny that they disapproved of equality of opportunity for everybody, but like so many other things we argue about, it would be interesting if we had time to talk about, public financing and what that might mean to the women, since obviously our elections are publicly financed now, but in a different kind of way, since the money couldn't possibly come from any other source other than the public. But the role of the woman in relationship to the financing of elections, the way in which elections are financed at the present time would be a very interesting one to discuss. We have just about a moment left, any of you care to say anything about it? That we have only 30 seconds left, so it has to be very fast.

- Well, if you're going to talk about financing the number of dollars that are raised by volunteer efforts of women that don't depend on single large contributions, should stand them in very good stead. Get $50,000 contributions instead of 50,000 in a lump, that's the secret. And that's within the realm of any woman.

- I agree Margaret.

- Well, I'm sorry that our time is up, but we have discussed tonight the first of two programs on women in politics, concentrating on the changing roles of women. Our panelists have been Margaret Jordan, district attorney in Johnson County, Kansas, Mary Wilson, Douglas County Republican Vice Chairperson, and Betty Jo Charlton, the Douglas County Democratic committee worker. Thank you very much for coming and thank you for joining us for A Feminist Perspective. Good evening, welcome to A Feminist Perspective. Tonight, we are discussing women in politics, a second program on this subject. Last week we had as our guest, Margaret Jordan from Kansas City district attorney. Who else did we have last week?

- Betty Jo Charleton.

- Betty Jo Charleton from the Democratic party and Mary Wilson from the Republican party. Tonight, our guests are Mary Ellen from the Kansas State Democratic party, Vice Chairperson for the Kansas state Democratic party and Mary Nell Reese, who is the state Republican party, Vice Chairperson. You call yourself chairperson now, or is it still chairman?

- It doesn't make any difference to me, as long as I get to do the job.

- Okay and Enelle Reese Tahoe, associate professor of law at the University of Kansas and incidentally, the only woman professor in our law school. I'd like to start out as we did last week, by asking each one of you to tell us how did you get involved in politics? If obviously two of you are and we'll ask Enelle whether she intends to get involved in politics I suspect, or in what way she already is involved. And Mary, do you want to start? How'd you get involved in politics?

- Well, a number of years ago, my husband came home one day and he said, "Mary, we need a precinct committee woman "for the Democratic party in our precinct, will you run?" And I really wasn't too knowledgeable as to what a precinct committee woman did, but I said, "Yes of course I will" and went down to sign my intent to be a candidate and filed and was elected. I found myself about two weeks after the election, elected the Vice Chairman of the Shawnee County Central Committee and also the Vice Chairman of the congressional district and that's how I got started, I really got in with both feet real fast.

- So you started in actually in an election.

- Yes I did.

- I think it might be interesting to some people to know, you said you weren't sure, of what a precinct committee woman did. Did you know what you were supposed to do in order to qualify to run?

- Yes, my husband is a lawyer and he..

- He told you.

- He tells me, I should add I guess, that I had worked in his campaign. He ran for what is now district attorney in Shawnee County and I helped in his campaign, which is a little different than helping other people I might add. It's a little more personal when you're working for your own or yourself, but...

- Mary Ellen, how'd you get in and were you always a Democrat?

- No, I was not, I was born in a completely Republican family and I married a Democrat law student and this is..

- He changed your mind.

- He changed my mind, yes, we had some very interesting discussions, the first two or three months we were married on both politics and I might add on religion and I've told this story before and I hope these women will bear with me. I was a Republican and my husband was from a long line of Democrats. They had been Democrats since the inception, of the Democratic party with Thomas Jefferson and had by the way, women running for office. One of our, my husband's ancestors had run for Congress back at the time of Thomas Jefferson, on the Democratic ticket. So I lost every political argument that we had at the time and so we finally decided that we would compromise, it was a very serious one. I registered as a Democrat and my husband joined my church. He was a Presbyterian and I was a Lutheran and he became a Lutheran and I became a Democrat and they say converts are the best. And I have done a lot of work in the Democratic party and he has done most of the church work so, we found it to be very rewarding and we're both very dedicated.

- To what your final decision was.

- Yeah we are.

- Interesting. Mary Elle what about you? How'd you get involved?

- Well, I've been involved a long time. I grew up in a family that felt that as a citizen, you had both rights and responsibilities. I also had an aunt who was a history teacher and I think for as I look back on it, she probably had some influence. She felt that it was very important that women were both informed and involved and I think probably that rubbed off in years before I knew it. And then I myself was interested in it and so I have worked at the local level, I've worked as a high school student in the youth group movements in the party and as a high school and college student and then did a lot of my work, when I was rearing my family as a volunteer, doing things I could do in the hours I had. And then when my last daughter and I am the mother of four daughters, went to college I decided I had time to give more time to something and in thinking it over, I decided that the thing I was at the present time, most interested in and felt needed some more work on was my party. And I am a Republican, I am a Republican by choice, a philosophy. I desperately believe in the rights of the citizens to make their own decision and to make it closest home. That government is best closest to the people and it's on that precept that I ran for state vice chairman and was elected a year and a half ago and had served since then.

- Would it be fair to ask you, whether you married a man who was also of the same political persuasion or did you talk him into it or?

- Well, he's now both a member of my church and my political party.

- We are too now Mary Elle.

- He was I think by philosophy, a Republican and is deeply involved and interested in these types of things. I don't know that I tried to reform him any more than I did my daughters, I wanted them to know why I believed what I did and then be free to make their choice.

- And what about it, are your daughters interested as you were in political matters?

- Out of four of them, some are interested in political matters and some are interested in music and art. All of them however will take a, I think I would say, accept a role and responsibility in it.

- Do you have any children Mary Ellen?

- Yes we do, we have one son, who is a junior here at the University of Kansas and a daughter who will be a freshman here next fall. And we also have had most of our dinnertime conversations, evolve around politics in some way or another, or around the law. And we felt that our children should make up their own minds as to what their politics would be to them, when they're growing up. I will say we were a little prejudice, but they both have, they seem to be pretty independent thinkers and our son did when he registered to vote at 18, did register as a Democrat, which pleased his mother and father, but we weren't quite sure, until he went to . Young people do think for themselves nowadays, I think it's great.

- I would really let my daughter speak for herself.

- Yeah one of your daughter's is here and now you can tell us how accurate you feel from your perspective, your mother's statement has been on this subject of her children.

- I just say it's redundant to say that I was born waving the flag and from mother's discussion, it's obvious that I've been in politics from the time that I was a very small child, really my most active involvement started during Huck Boyd's campaign and I traveled around with Huck and Mamie and Buss and got a really inside view on what Kansas looks like from the grass roots and that was about the time I was an eighth grader and since that time I've been working very actively in politics and particularly at little volunteer activities from that time on, until I got involved just after law school, I was a White House Fellow and served in the executive branch in Washington, really at cabinet level served as a special assistant to James Hudson, who was then Secretary of Labor and began to see not only the grassroots side of politics, but indeed high level politics and how they affect each of us and how they operate in Washington and became more and more convinced, that not only was it right that I was born waving the flag, but I was also born a Republican and am far more convinced of that today than I was before I saw the operations in Washington.

- Now you've brought up a subject that we did not discuss last week, because we talked entirely in terms of elective, or almost entirely in terms of elective politics, but you are presenting another side and you want to comment on career politics versus avocational politics on either an elected basis or an appointed basis?

- Well, Emily, I might start that out. I listened to last week's program and noticed that the comment was made that most women in the over 40 groups saw politics as an advocation, along with whatever else they were involved in, whether it was the raising children or whatever and I would say that maybe one of the big reasons that younger women are moving into the political sphere is that they do indeed see it as a career. And they do see that their opportunities are and horizons are widening, that there's an opportunity there for them to make themselves known on the issues and that politics for men has been a career in many instances and that it can be the same for women. At least Mary and my mother could probably both comment better than I, but I'm getting a firsthand taste of it. One of the problems is, that you have to judge your own capacities your own physical capacities, as far as taking on any career, whether it's politics, whether it's being a law professor, whether it's being a mother, whatever it is. And when you try to combine two of those in the 20 to 40 age group, you have a physical capacity problem that you have to deal with and so the young women who are becoming involved in seeing it as a career, are also having to deal with the problems of their own time slots and physical capacities.

- Well, I might add that I still have one teenager at home and of course, as I said before, one here at the University of Kansas and I still find that I have some problems with this. I tried to be at home when my daughter is home and this does cause some problem, I still feel I am first of all a mother and I've had to kind of delegate my time in various ways too. I do do some working, part-time working, if you could call it a career, I work as a secretary to one of the state senators in the Kansas Senate during the legislative session and this is taking part of my time. So maybe I can relate a little bit to you Denelle in that, I work part, a little bit of the time and for pay and a lot of the time is volunteer for the Democratic party and still try to maintain my home. And it is not easy even, and I'm over 40, I think it gets a little harder.

- I think there are really three arenas that women can work in, in politics and I think the first and most important for every woman is that she should be an informed citizen and vote.

- Absolutely.

- And the second one that there is the arena of politics itself as a profession, which you've been talking about as a candidate or campaign manager. And then I think there's a responsibility that we sometimes don't touch on. And that is that we do have the responsibility to rear another generation of good citizens and I think those three arenas are good. I think one thing we're touching on here is, avocation and vocation is that of appointed places for women. It seems to me that we, last week I heard the discussion and it centered around candidacy, but I think there are many appointive offices and place, there's much work to be done in this field where qualified women are to be found and I think I would have to go along with one of my constituents on last week's panel, that I do not want to be chosen at any job because I am a woman, I want to be chosen because they think I'm qualified to do the job. And I wanna be free to choose those who work with me, by the same token, and I think women themselves, must have to seen being qualified.

- And would you say the same thing's true with men? You wouldn't want to vote for someone

- Absolutely not.

- just because he was a man.

- I don't want to differentiate by race, creeds, sex anything else, I think qualification is what we need in Canada.

- So what do you, well I think I hear you saying is that everyone, regardless of whether he has, or she has any interest in politics as a career, does have a citizen's responsibility to be aware of the issues and to vote.

- This is my personal feeling and I feel very strongly about it and being informed.

- I used to take my children with me to vote when they were old enough, just to I would take them with me to the polling place when they were one, one and a half and two, I was sure they would grow up and feel a responsibility to vote, but I wanted them to get in the habit too, of every election day, they went with me to-

- And I think there are these other arenas, for instance in this present campaign, there are a number of women managing the campaigns in my own party here in the state. I believe there are more women than men as campaign managers for the first time in the history of Kansas, I was chairman of the platform committee, first time a woman had been. And I think there are other areas on the national scene, Mary Louise Smith is national chairman of the Republican party, is a first in the nation. And I think it's the kind of jobs we do as well as the numbers.

- We also had a Democratic national chairman, Jean Westwood was national chairman of the Democratic party two years ago and which I think was a great thing for women.

- But I think it's the jobs we do as well as the numbers doing them.

- Well, there are more women running.

- Yes, tell us, sort of run through those, that situation again. This has been called by some writers and newspapers as the year of the woman, because we've had, we have so many more women who are running and I like for you to review where we are in regard to that and then I'd like for us to discuss what are the factors in your opinion which have brought out more women now? Do you have some statistics?

- I have a few, I was surprised at first they sounded very good and then when I looked at the total picture I wasn't so sure. At the present time there are 441 total women from all parties in state legislatures, but they told, that's out of 7,500 and the figure of 441 sounds very bad when you consider that there are 7,500 women need to get into this area. The state legislatures are a great place for a woman to become involved, because they don't have to go so far from home. They can stay within their state. and it's a short, generally a short session. at least it is in the state of Kansas. In the Democratic party nationally, I don't know what the figures are in the Republican party, but we have 531 women running for state legislative spots.

- So that's more women running in one party, than all the women are now serving.

- That is right.

- In state legislatures.

- We have 30 women running for the United States House of Representatives, 10 of these are incumbent, Congress women, or Congress persons, Congressman, whatever the term.

- I'm sure they wouldn't want to be called men.

- No. And we have two running, one from Oregon and one from Maryland for the United States Senate. We have one candidate for governor running in the state of Connecticut. And I believe the Republican party has two women, Maryland and Nevada as I understand. The Democrats have one woman running for Lieutenant governor in the state of New York, we have eight women running for Secretary of State. We have five now serving, so this is some more running for Secretary of State. We have six now serving as state treasures and there are eight running for state treasure. So there is an improvement, but there we have a long ways to go, yes we do.

- Do either of, you know, the statistics on the..

- There are definitely a number of more women running and as you say, they are saying, it's the year of the women there may be a lot of reasons for this. I think women's interest is higher on it and they're getting involved in.

- Well I think there's more than that. I think it's the fact that this year finally, we're looking at the issues instead of the party. I think Watergate, whether you're on either side of the aisle, pointed out the importance of the issues over the political background. And although I am the first to say that I think that one should work within a political party in order to influence the process, whether it's Republican or Democrat we've all of a sudden this year realized that we also should focus on the integrity of the person and of their knowledge of the issues and whether Watergate was good, or bad, or indifferent for the country. One thing it did do, was make us focus on knowledge of the issues, rather than the party from which he came, he or she came. And I think in that sphere, it's the best possible atmosphere for a woman, because she can show lo and behold that she knows something and somebody will listen to her. Therefore, I think that regardless of the party that you're in, one reason this year is a good atmosphere, is we're talking about inflation. We're talking about foreign aid. We're talking about agriculture policies. We're talking about in the state of Kansas for instance, we're talking about pension plans, we're talking about tax structures, we're talking about schools and we're not talking only about the party from which the candidate came.

- That's right, that we have issues this time with which women can identify. Women are grocery shopping, the inflation issue is a very real thing to women and I think this has had a lot to do with it and I also think that women at this time have more if I may use the word credibility, than maybe some men candidates do, women are, have a little different image. Maybe this is encouraged more of them to go into it. Do you disagree with me Mary Ellen?

- No, I don't disagree with you, Mary. I also think that that women are preparing themselves better for these types of things now and I think there are a lot of issues and I think we're wanting to put knowledgeable people in the seats to deal with them. People that have had experience with those types of things that are qualified with state government, qualified to work in the national scene, qualified to deal with these issues and I think that that has much to say about it. I think, I think Denelle's right and we're beginning to look at, at credibility at those types of things, but I think she's especially right in the fact that we're looking at the issues and who's capable of solving them and I think we're all wanting to put a qualified person and if the person comes across and we realize they're qualified, then this makes a difference. I think a party has a responsibility there myself. I think you have a responsibility to have a qualified slate.

- I'd like to elaborate just, or make one comment about something Danelle said about working within the framework of a party. Basically, I think when I'm very honest with myself, my political work has been done basically because I believe in a two party system, that there must be a two party system and my husband and I both have and this is really what has been my big motivation in politics is the preservation of this system and whether we work in the Democratic party, or we work in the Republican party, or the Prohibition party or whatever, we need to be work within the framework of the party and not outside.

- We need to be glad that there are good people, when there are good people running on either one too.

- Absolutely.

- I've been kind of interested in the fact that so many of the issues at the present time are represent the extraordinary worries of just plain old common people and that some of the women who are running, have started their campaigns on very mundane issues. For instance, Betty Roberts, as a state legislator in Oregon ,is said at least to have led the battle against throw away bottles. Now that's a very ordinary kind of thing, but it deals with something that is all aware of that the whole ecology business and Fong in Hawaii ran on the pay toilets. I mean, this was her beginning, the beginning of the whole thing, feeling that it was discriminatory that by and large, they were discriminatory to women.

- Especially in the airport.

- Well, any really, almost anywhere where there are such things, Danelle.

- I was just going to expand a little bit on on historically why this may be quote the year of the woman, I don't know that that's necessarily a good terminology, but in the historical genesis of women as anything, women as lawyers, women as doctors, women as politicians, women as whatever engineers, jockeys, I think we've come to a point in the historical process, when we've realized that women may be able to govern as well as do all these other things. And women are preparing themselves not only within party structures and so on, but they're preparing themselves professionally and young women are getting the advantage of educational opportunities. They're getting the opening and expanding advantages of experience at much younger ages, than was the case 20, 50 years ago. Therefore they're prepared at an earlier age to go into the kinds of things that the term that was used the over 40 gang last week, were able to do and indeed had the opportunity to do sometime ago. So I think it's not only preparation in the political sphere, but it's preparation as people and educated people and people with experience in various areas.

- Just qualified in every field, because we're qualifying. I know as a mother of girls I thought I would have thought no more of getting the education for them had they been boys. I felt girls needed, should have and were qualified for it.

- And you would have felt that way, I presume even if you had had sons.

- I would have felt the same way.

- Well I wanted both, it was very important to us that both of our children.

- It certainly was once true that the boys' education certainly came first and then if the family could afford it basically they sent the girls too, but I think because this also is changing. There's a recognition that education is necessary for everyone.

- I think she's right and this is why younger women are going into it, is that they're prepared for it and I believe in preparation.

- 'Cause we must thank the media for this, television, radio, our young people, have the exposure that we didn't have my goodness. They can turn on the television, or listen to the radio and they can hear the candidates for office, or people who already hold office. It's fantastic for our young people now, it really, truly is. I wonder sometimes how I would do, if I had to go back and go through college, whether I would do it as well as I did 25 years ago with that background.

- Do you know, whether or not you have any opinion on whether young people are taking advantage of all this exposure? I know we hear that and it's true and we're watching, are the young people watching and reading and really becoming aware of what the problems of the country are and the possibilities for solving it? Are they participating in the debate?

- I think they are.

- I think I would respond to that in a little of two opposite extremes is happening. The barrage of communications has done two things. It is either made a young person absolutely adamant about the need to be involved in order to express his or her opinion, because they don't like some of the things they see, or because they may indeed like some of them, or it has made the young person feel that it is really not a very effective mechanism our whole governing process. And unfortunately, I think the events of the last two years, have had that effect on a lot of young people. I would think that in my own opinion, I think that there are several things that the barrage of communications, such as I like to term it, one, it has certainly stirred an interest, even if it's apathy, apathy is an interest these days. And at this particular time in their lives, as say a college student may or may not have the time, or the inclination to become involved in the political sphere, but as they get down the road into the economic life of the country, they will begin to realize what an impact either the good or bad job that's being done at the governing levels is going to have on their personal life. And I think that the apathy, or I don't even like the word apathy, the lack of interest, may turn into a fighting interest.

- Just as long as it doesn't just become cynicism.

- That's right.

- There is some cynicism.

- Indeed, I think there is cynicism, on the other hand, I'm not even sure the cynics are bad, because as we look back through history, last week Betty Jo referred to John Stuart Mill, well through history there have been the cynics of the political process and the fact that they happen to be the younger people has nearly always been true. In the French Revolution, they weren't the old guys, they were the young people and therefore, I think that as we look through history we're really not going through such a different phase. The cynics are the people who are on the outside watching and it doesn't matter if it's young people, old people, philosophers, students, at least we're involved in a process where there are cynics and I find that healthy and we have an atmosphere in which that can be expressed. And I would regret the day and think it would be the day when this country would not be as strong, if that cynicism were not given a channel and an opportunity to be heard.

- I'd like to say, by the same token there, I think she's brought out something that for a while has, was out of sight and that was that government didn't bother us as individual citizens. I think it does, I think that's what my philosophy is based on and I think as people begin to realize this, that government touches their own lives, then they begin to take an interest in it.

- I think they all realize that this year that's why this is an interesting campaign year and an interesting issue year.

- Right. We have discussed for the second week women in politics and our guests tonight have been Mary Ellen the Kansas State Democratic Party Vice-chair person Mary Nell Reese, the Kansas State Republican Party vice a chairperson and a Danelle Reese Taha associate professor of law at Kaygu. I appreciate very much your coming and thank you for listening to a feminist perspective.