- Two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12. That's for women date to get together. Okay, I think it's a hassle because most of the time or a lot of the time young women are, act artificially whether from a fear of being open or from some social more which dictates that you act in a certain way. And so, you know, you play impression games and the circuitous route in communicating.

- Hello, do you think that many women have problems relating to each other in a dating situation?

- I'd say probably the dating situation is one of the worst situations in which two people could try to relate.

- Why do you say that?

- It's a, I think it's a situation that has too many little repercussions involved and too many expectations. It's kind of on the pretense of being more formal when actually you don't want to be chances are, when you are formal it's for particular reasons which aren't particularly good. I guess, you know I don't feel at my most comfortable state what I want quotes that date in law.

- Well, one of the complaints that I've had from people is that when you go to a dance or someplace specifically to meet someone, you see someone that you might like to talk to and you go up to that person and what do you have to say other than hi what's your major?

- Well, that's always a good open, right? Because I've majored in so many different things that can get a discussion between us last all night. But I don't know you know. I know, I think like if you really wanna, if you wanna meet people and you do come in contact with people of the opposite sex that it's going to be easier in a more indirect way rather than the direct way. Just conversation you know, if you see someone periodically like if your paths cross, which happens a lot in this kind of setup, you know, you just, you figure out that the person had to talk and talk to them.

- Do you think that very many men feel threatened by a woman who makes the initial contact in a relationship such as she's the first one to call him or she asked him out or that kind of aggressive behavior?

- Oh yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't know most men, you know, I, it's hard to say.

- How do you feel that?

- Personally I like it. There's a remarkably lazy chicken streak running through me that like having the other person, you know take the initiative and then I can kind of, you know.

- Some women feel, a lot of women feel that if they take the initial step, make the initial contact then the man involved with would feel that she's easy or that she's chasing him or that she's nasty.

- I think all are the same first thing that's too old, I think, or it doesn't apply to this college situation that I've been in, you know for six years. You know, it's just I think those, you know, easy and all that kind of thing is it's something it's something for maybe high school, your mother said if you call the guy, you know that maybe that's what mothers said to the girls I don't know. But I think that's kind of gone. You know I think if a guy would probably be more put off just by the fact that he was now in the, in a new role rather than the male role. Rather than thinking, oh this is you know so.

- Do you feel comfortable having a woman pay her own way?

- Well, sure I, you know, I guess, I guess I like to see it kind of go back and forth. You know, I don't feel comfortable paying a woman's way primarily because I'm so poor. That's one of the prerequisites, I guess I have to place on my relationships with other people's that they're going to have to, be able to pay it for at least their end of it. And maybe you could also have some kind of agreement that there's kind of an eventual reciprocity going into you pay for this and I'll pay for the next thing. You know, we see each other, you know, the next time.

- What do you feel comfortable initiating contact with a man such as calling him first or asking him out?

- Oh, no, not really it depends like, if, I don't know if I didn't know him at all I wouldn't be like, if I was dating someone that I wouldn't hesitate, you know, like something came up. Where unless it was specifically that kind of date lined out.

- Do you expect the man to always pay for both of you on a date?

- No I don't think that, that's always good. I think it should be, well, it really depends, but like especially if you're dating one person for a while, I think you know, you can like take turns or something I think between the two to agree on something 'cause I get to like spend some just for one person.

- Thank you very much. I'd like to know if you think that there are very many hassles in dating?

- I don't think so. When people get along you know once in a while, if she gets a you know like some people are not compatible, you know. The only people you should get along very well is that really you know strange.

- Do you think that men feel uncomfortable when women call them up to ask them out?

- Yeah, I think is uncomfortable to deal with.

- Why?

- Well I just know that from personal experience I don't like aggressive women. You know there is something about them .

- Do you feel uncomfortable if a woman suggest that she pay her own way to a man?

- No, if she want to do it, I feel better about it you know if she let me, but if she wants to do it, you know let her I don't mind.

- How would you respond if a girl saw you and come over and talk to you wanting to get to know you. Would you consider this very aggressive behavior?

- Well, I just think that is friendly, .

- Well what if she then called you up later to go out for a coffee or something.

- That might be a little more aggressive.

- Why?

- Well someone might think that it's .

- Do you think that most men feel, that is threatening to them to have a girl call them up?

- Yes.

- Or do they feel complimented about it.

- 'cause it's like supposed to be like it's supposed to be more likely if they wanna call the girl you know. I think that I'm just too .

- Do you think they are very many hassles involved in the dating patterns of men and women today?

- Well, I'd say there is, because people at least in my area that I associate with don't like dates is boys get together and go out and do something. Not really per se dates. The date, the word date is kind of old fashioned to me. I prefer not to call it that or so.

- Do you feel threatened if a girl calls you up and asks you to go some place date?

- Simply not, no.

- Do you feel threatened if she offers to pay her own way?

- I feel a little bit pinched myself I don't like it, I guess uncomfortable. Personally so when I could say that, oh, it's pay for both if I call her up or something like that if she calls me out, just to go somewhere along, it's kind of touch and go wherever she feels, wants to do what to do it.

- Do you understand what goes behind a woman's decision to pay her own way?

- I don't understand it at all. So that means she want to it's fine.

- Do you think there are any problems involved in the way men and women relate to each other in a dating situation?

- Yeah, I think there's because everybody's really on edge and like, you know, once your opening line you know, how do you kiss her at the door and, you know just junk like that general tension.

- Do you think that most women we'd like to be more aggressive than they are, but feel that they will be rejected if they call the guy up or they offer to pay their own way?

- Well, I guess some guys might take it as, you know she's chasing him or she's being too pushy or something. I don't think, you know if there's some guy that I knew as a friend I called him up, but it was some guy wanted to go out with I wouldn't call him first.

- Why?

- I just you know I don't like to throw myself on someone. If he wants to ask me out fine, you know.

- But you don't consider that he's throwing himself on you.

- No, I guess, you know cause I'm not, you know, women's live type person you know, I just wait for the guy to call, I mean.

- But there was some issues raised here that I think are really worth talking about. One of the things that struck me was the very last thing that was said the girl didn't want, it was okay for her to call up to call up a guy if it was just a friend. But if he was, if she had any romantic interest in him or if he was a date, then she couldn't call him up. And that seems to really be where it's at. And I think it's really unfortunate. Does anybody wanna make any comment about that? Why is that? What do you feel?

- Well, the whole dating situation is a double standard though because there was also the guy who thought that the girl could call him up but she couldn't offer to pay for the date. And then there was the girl who the guy who thought that the girl could pay for the date but she couldn't call him up. And it's just so ambiguous. There are no really set norms.

- I think that way the problem is that not necessarily that there are no set norms but that the norms are so strict. We, I think I can understand why that girl would have trouble calling up someone for a date yet she could call up just a friend is saying and all this but it would be very hard for her to call someone up for a date because even though she, even though I think she was one that said, I'm not a women's liberation person or something like that, she may or any woman may have in their head now referred to liberal ideas or ideas that are very closely identified with movement. We still have say 18, 19, 20 years being brought up in a completely, you know, different ways. So our mind may be okay in one way, but let's say our emotions, our psychology, is still oriented to a society where you let the man take the more aggressive role you let the man call you up and take you out and open your door and this and that.

- And you're worried about what the man's gonna think about you, if you do call them up.

- Sure, sure.

- Well, it was so funny that she said that she felt that for her to call him him up she would be throwing herself at him. And I asked her if he was throwing himself at her by calling her up. And she said, no.

- Well, Molly, I think that that's part of the way we look at things. You know, one just doesn't assume that if a guy is calling a girl up, that he's throwing himself at her at the girl, but because that's been done so long and yet in a way, it's it he's very obviously is he does wanna get her attention. He does want to have some kind of or he thinks he wants to have some kind of relationship with her or, you know, this he is in a way throwing himself but we don't look at it like that. Whereas if a woman admits that, so she likes someone or thinks she might like someone that wouldn't be, you know just throwing herself in her path. And, at this point we can't have that. Most of us don't think we can have that.

- Mark is the male on the panel. How do you feel about women who are termed aggressive for being more overt in their behavior to men rather than coily trying to let him know that she would like him to ask her out.

- Well it's like picking up on what we've been saying. There's a whole lot of cultural baggage that we have from high school and from what, you know kind of just the way we've been brought up. And so when you know, it's okay for a guy to call up a girl and it's not okay for a girl to call up a guy. There's the whole idea of, you know just being scared of being rejected. And it works both ways, you know, cause guys, you know we're talking about just the very initial kind of dating you know, just meeting somebody and saying the right things. And so how do you get to know people, you know it's gotta be done. Yeah, it's a, that's kind of the situation.

- But is the, is the woman really I mean, how was she looked at?

- Is the woman aggressive?

- Yeah I mean, is she looked upon rather disdainfully if she .

- I don't think disdainfully I think she's looked on as being aggressive.

- The only time in high school that was accepted was when there was a pep club party and that the girls were supposed to be able to invite the boys or it was a women pay off. And even then, you know girls would just go through a panicky weekend on trying to call men though and then they usually check out in the end. And then they really felt like they could empathize with men, you know, for the first time.

- Well Boss, how do you think, how do you feel if a girl calls you up and asks you to do something something you don't know very well?

- Well, it really hasn't happened to me whole lot and the cases where girls have called me up. It's usually been someone that I've known fairly well and it's really a relaxed situation. There's no hang ups on the traditional, you know, idea of who should call who, because we see each other say in class or we see each other on the street and we talk the same way there as we do over the phone. But if someone were to call me up that had seen me in class for the first time someone that I didn't know, quite frankly my initial reaction to that would be well, who is this? And then I would start to think, well I would try to place the person. I try to place the voice and the face together as far as being aggressive. I don't think that would really enter into it.

- I think that goes back, that goes back to the whole dating situation in the first place, just seeing someone in class and saying hi, just by their looks. So by that one word you heard him speak like hi or something, you wanna go out with them. And then I know that I don't feel real comfortable calling up a guy. And I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable calling up a guy that I'd seen just one time in class and said hello to. I think that's the whole you know the question behind it because when, if a guy calls me up and I've only seen him once I'm not likely to go out with him either.

- I think a lot of the, you know the social mores tend to think, you know, like for a guy especially a girl calls him up, you know that he doesn't know very well. He's immediately gonna be thinking about what's coming off here. And those are the kinds of things that we're dealing with. And he just can't think of it just as a friendship or she just really wanted to get to know him. And, you know, I had an experience kind of like happening to me and just, I met a girl and she sort of just said why don't you come over and have a cup of coffee. And that was a little threatening. What's going on.

- I think that, you know, you were talking about after a while, you get to know someone a little bit better and then it's not as threatening. But it's interesting I think even in a relationship that has gone on for a while, there still is a hesitancy sometimes on the part of a woman to call him up. But that breaks down, but it's such a slow process you know.

- I knew one woman who I think counted the times that she had called this guy and she'd been dating him for a year and a half. She says, I just don't like it you know. And I thought my, you know they'd been dating so long and she was still afraid to call. And it seems kind of too big.

- How do you girls think about, would you call up somebody and ask them out for a date?

- I feel very insecure doing it. I don't know if I did it, it would just be to prove to me.

- Would it be because of the role that it's not your role to do it or it'd be know feeling rejected and not wanna get turned down?

- No, I think it'd be more in the fact of, you know you said you felt threatened by it. And I would think, you know what would he think my motives were in calling him off? He might not understand them. And I might not be able to get them across. I think that would be.

- I think the thing about, for the most part in a dating situation, you never get those things out in the open.

- Right.

- You don't talk about those kinds of things, which is really.

- Mark is that something that is, I don't know, I'm talking about a first date or the initial date to me the worst thing in the world is small talk. I mean, I guess I can't, I can't really do it.

- Don't like the weather.

- Well, it's just like, we're talking about before. What is your major, you know, the whole kind of the sorority and Greek thing where you met them for the first time and they'd coming through and you ask, what year are you? What's your major? That same kind of level of conversation goes on a first date and you don't really get to know the person it's ridiculous.

- Sometimes it continues on and on though. And you never, just never can cut past that because it started off with an initial first dating bit. And it's kind of continued in that role stuff.

- You know, I really think that it boils down to how open a person is naturally. I think that while, and again, in my own case I have more girlfriends now than I ever had before. And there's no connotation, you know that we're gonna go to bed with each other or that eventually we're gonna get married or something like that. And what we do is we sit down and we talk about each other and how we feel about things. And I mean, how we really feel about things and things that are a little more meaningful than.

- You know there's so many games, you know.

- Yeah.

- And those are the most rewarding and lasting relationships. Anyway, it seems like most of the dating relationships I've been in orals, the first date, I just was so glad when I was home, you know, and I just didn't enjoy it all. And, I think maybe a lot of people have a really negative connotation about dating anyway so.

- Yeah, but I think that sometimes those very stylized sort of things we go through are in some ways very helpful to some people, you know, I know which side of the sidewalk to walk on. I know which fork to pick up, and I think that some of the small talk is useful. So at least you find out, well, you know what, you know you get a good look at him or he gets a good look at you and I think that if some of this little stuff is taken care of. And then you can just sort of move on.

- I don't think it has to be that way. I think you can be open with a person, find out what they're like before you decide, you know, on with call them up and ask for a date or something and then have that total uncomfortable situation of getting ready and seeing him at the door and.

- I think a lot of guys around it that are just really tired of that whole hassle of dating girls. And you know think some of the lines, and calling them up and I just don't wanna go through all that to get to a meaningful relationship or they just wanna just have friends.

- And that's why they would welcome a lot of my friends with the same way would welcome a girl calling because if for no other reason, just like the one guy that was interviewed on the tape earlier said that he said checking out or that he doesn't, you know, that it's more comfortable for him because it puts the initiative and the shoe on the other foot. So to speak, that's pretty comfortable when the other person has to come up with the lines and the answers and everything else. And you just sort of responding.

- I think if I called a guy up, I'd feel more comfortable just inviting him to a group situation or a really informal thing, rather than calling up and saying, hey, let's go to a movie tonight. I'll pick you up 7:30, walk into the door and everything. And then I feel really uncomfortable.

- And if you do call up a guy, you know, then what happens? Are you playing the quote male role? Or do you go ahead and then, well, that's a problem. Does he pair, do you pair, do you go Dutch? And then like, well, does it change or not? I mean that, I guess you just find out when you went out or something.

- One of the things Boss that you mentioned was talking about a meaningful relationship or maybe it was Mark and, you know, a better way of going about getting this meaningful relationship. And I think that one of the fears that women have is that men really are not for a meaningful relationship. And, you know, that's why a lot of these defenses are built up.

- And that's the thing when you get to know them first, you can tell whether they're out for meaningful relationship or to stop for whatever.

- When a girl calls up a guy though, is she out for meaningful relationship.

- I think that another part problem with for women is, is that a lot of times, I think women are more or less brought up to be somewhat aloof to, you know it's more graceful to pretend like you don't really care you know, and you know, this whole feminine mystique thing, you know we have to pay attention to that. And just as you were saying, a lot of men would prefer to get rid of the idea that they have to come up with all the lines and everything. A lot of women would like to admit that yes they do like to go out and did they do like men and you know, this sort of thing. So I think that there's that problem too, that we are, we have been forced into a situation aloofness and many women, not at all.

- You know, I keep a lot of times when you were in college for any way at time, everyone has gone through it seems like at least one quote unquote deep relationship. And the old phrase of well getting burnt or whatever comes up. And I kinda, well I kinda think it's a cop out first of all but I think that would be one of the reasons for the arrogance, for the aloofness because you don't wanna get hurt again, that's your idea. And if you stand back, you know, and if you hold somebody off at the distance, it's a lot more safe to do that than it is to let yourself be known and try to get close to the person. And I think that has a definite .

- I think it also though, has a bearing in in just the sexual nature of dating. You know, what it is in the end. I think that's what most people's view it. It's not a relationship between two people. It is a relationship between a female person and a male person. And that is so steeped in sexuality with that.

- It's funny. I was thinking earlier about something that happened on not too long ago to me. I recently, well I've done this several times, talked for four or five hours at a time with one person, a female and I'm on telling a friend about it. A guy he said, you mean, you talk for four or five hours with a girl, you know this just like some amazing thing, you did do anything. And my, and I said, no, we did a lot, but it was all verbal, you know. I know that's tied in with the same connotations of talking or getting the one person.

- Okay I think we're gonna have to break now for a minute. We'll be back after the station break with the Feminist Perspective.

- As you know, this year, KANU is again bringing you the Saturday afternoon broadcast so the Metropolitan Opera. Someone recently wrote the Metropolitan Opera that the intermissions seemed almost as important as the Opera itself. Prepared and produced by Geraldine Sylvain for the past 32 seasons the innovation programs of the weekly upper broadcasts are indeed important segments of the actual Opera performance. A special feature was the first intermission Opera News on the air. This is designed to interest and stimulate the musically uninformed as well as the true Opera lover famous names from Opera and other areas of the music world are usually on hand to clarify many aspects of the opera with instrumental and vocal illustrations. Texaco's Opera Quiz during the second intermission has had a vast following since it first went on the air of 1940. It is a lively program that always draws tremendous listener response. Quizmaster Edward Downs, one of America's best known musicologists. We'll be back again this season to pose listeners questions to the panels of Opera experts. He's been at this post since 1959. Incidentally questions from the radio audience should be submitted to Texaco Opera Quiz, 135 East 42nd Street New York, New York zip code 10017. To anyone who's question is used on the air and Opera lovers gift package will be sent including four just released Opera albums and a transistor AMFM table model stereo radio. Other inhibitions are devoted to the singers round table where many of the top artists answer listeners' questions discuss their careers, give a closer behind the scenes look at what goes on during an Opera performance and juicy stories about themselves and their colleagues, the world over. So when veteran announcer Milton Cross tells the radio audience is inhibition time here once again at the Metropolitan Opera listeners can be sure they will hear informative, lively, controversial, often hilarious anecdotes, opinions comments about Opera, just about everything one wants to know about Opera to enhance their enjoyment of this most theatrical of all the arts. And you'll hear it all right here on, KANU Lawrence Public Radio, from the University of Kansas.

- You're listening to a Feminist Perspective from the Public Radio service of the University of Kansas, KANU Lawrence. Here again is Molly Laflin.

- One of the things that I wanna talk about this evening is how dating is changing and how people just cringe at the term date and at the term boyfriend. And no one seems to have come up with any kind of way of describing what's going on in the interaction between men and women these days. And they feel so uncomfortable with a situation they feel is outmoded and they cannot deal with. And I'd like to ask the panel members how they feel that the dating situation is changing and what kind of alternatives there are coming to the front.

- One of the big things, or one of the biggest changes that I've seen is that rather than the structure date, there's more of a getting together idea where you, you know, a cup of coffee and a conversation is a good way to initially get to know a person. Whereas it used to be that on Monday night at six o'clock or 6:30 after supper was over, you know, 'cause everybody be there he'd call on the phone and say, hey, my name is so-and-so, you remember me? I'd like to go out with you this Saturday we can really get to know each other. Let's go dancing or go to a movie. And to me, you know, you're not gonna get to know anybody by going dancing or going to a movie. The easiest way is to talk and then, you know kind of share ideas.

- Yeah, I know what you're saying, but the one good thing about going to a movie with somebody is at least you've spent some time with that person. And for some reason you feel more comfortable to at least start something from there. And a lot of people feel like they just can't delve into anything really serious, or have any of depth at all. If they just have met the person for some reason four hours or two days, hours in a movie at least gives them a starting point of what to talk about beyond what's your major, you know, like, whether it was a goo movie, you know. And when you have a situation like where so many people are feeling so isolated from members of the opposite sex, then just and really want to get together, what is there, you know? You know what I mean.

- I think that sometimes while I what's happening is a lot of people are going to parties or groups of people meeting in a house. And you know a lot of people think that's a good, yeah. A lot of people think that's a good thing but I sometimes wonder if that means that we are becoming even more paranoid about sitting alone with one other person, you know, just over a cup of coffee you know, we .

- I think it's a good thing though because there's so much of the whole dating game thing has it starts even in junior high school go being with somebody and you're just with one person and, you know you're all, you're kind of feeling limited to that person that you can't do with other people. And I like the idea of having some different kinds of alternatives to dating. I can in Europe, it's very common just for guys to go to places like a bar and girls to go to the bars and just meet there and get to know each other and talk and was kind of an old, real old etiquette that operates used to operate at the old square dances and things and saying, may I accompany you home? And then it's just that sort of, that kind of an atmosphere in which you just meet and you get, you know you get to know someone and say would you like to go out for coffee or would you like to come home or something like that?

- Mark, what I'd like to ask you is that, what kind of connotation has it now going to a college bar and you see a girl sitting by herself at the bar or two girls sitting together. What generally do you think the guy thinks about when he walks in and sees this?

- I think it depends on the guy. They're usually figure that girls at a bar to meet people and, you know.

- One time they just went to a bar, you know, they wanted to drink or whatever and they were just sitting there talking to then these two guys come up and sit down next to them and kept, you know, and they, all I thought was that these girls were there to be picked up for scent. And they were really, you know angry at the same. And like they said, we were there because we wanted to be in, you know, they were man. And I don't know, I don't think I don't think one or two girls can go to a bar without having someone maybe think that they wanna be picked up.

- That's an annoying factor because you know it is nice to walk into a bar and sit down and have a drink, you know have you been shopping all day or something silly like that. And that's a nice thing, but I wouldn't go into a bar by myself. And it would take a whole group of us.

- Safety remember.

- Yeah exactly.

- Even with a group though, I've had.

- Yeah, it's really has put a limit on the kind of activities that women can do at night which is unfortunate because you know not all of us are finding mates and all this and yet most of us still like to do things but you don't do them at night.

- I'd like to invite the listening audience to call in any questions they might have that the panel could answer or try to answer. Unfortunately, there's the a person calling in cannot ask the question over the radio as they usually can. There's some technical problem but the question will be read over the air by the either myself or the engineer. One of the things that I think that we might talk about is we seem to be rather dissatisfied with what's going on and you know how we interact with people and how we're seen. And I'd like to hear from the panel what they think they can do to change it.

- I'd like to just offer the alternative again of group meetings, because we were, you said that you were kind of hesitant to think that maybe people were afraid to sit over a cup of coffee just to one-to-one. But I think that's one of the bad things about dating. Is it it's like you, you go out with a guy and you're expected you you kind of find all the things you have in common and all the things you don't have in common just to see whether you are compatible or something. And I think in a group meeting you can go through all that without you don't have to go. You don't have to go through all that. You can find other alternatives, just getting to know them and then finding out whether you'd like to be with them again, and then sit over with a cup of coffee.

- Well, I can see that happening and then so often I hear the radio playing so loud or that record player playing too loud. I can't hear a word they're saying, and there's so many people talking I can't hear. And I think often group parties is where, the really light cocktail language isn't employed, you know. And only for instance, if the whole group would get into some one particular issue, but that's not really .

- We already talk about group parties though are you Kate?

- No, I'm talking more about just group people.

- It's just like getting together.

- Yeah and it's not necessarily it doesn't I don't find that people don't talk or don't communicate at group meetings. I find that you don't have a whole group. Like you said, a group talking about one subject but they're a little fractions all over fractions.

- How would you go about setting up a group meeting? I mean, would it be what I picture in my mind is like 10 people and all on their first date type thing, they're gonna sit around and get to get to know each other. I'm just curious.

- I don't know, I think that would be very uncomfortable too. I guess, I don't know what the solution is because it would be uncomfortable to have all of my friends and then a guy that I was interested in getting to know that would be uncomfortable for him. It would be uncomfortable for me. I don't really know guess.

- Very monopoly.

- You know, if you've got, say 10 people, you know just 10 various people, non dates together but I think still sooner or later let's say this group met a couple of times but sooner or later one couple is gonna decide that they would like to get to know each other a little bit better. And sooner or later they're gonna have to face the situation of meeting without the group. I think in some ways that with the group.

- I don't think that would be harrowing at all. I think you'd have all those common experiences. It wouldn't be this let's find out what we have in common. Let's find out if you like each other by talking, it's like you already know you like each other or you care something about the other person you want to get to know them.

- One thing that will be really nice is when we all get ourselves liberated enough from the whole sexual bag sexual thing so that you can just meet people openly, and honestly. Just as people, without thinking of a woman or the man is a sex something.

- Oh boy, that's good. That really, you know, it's I think we've kind of talked around that a lot.

- I talked to a guy couple of nights ago and he was saying, you know, it was he was down on both men and women right now. He says, because like, he don't come back from wherever you spin. And the guys will come in on the floor and this is a freshmen dorm I'm talking about. And the sick boy, I had a rug of check you out to try to take her, you know like talking about them as a conquest or something. And he says yet, at the same time he hears things from other girls like, well, I wouldn't go out with a guy twice that I didn't think I had a chance of marrying, you know, and it's just like. And he said he'd actually heard that. So it seems like there's a lot of motivations in dating that are really sick and are sad or whatever. And it's just, I don't know maybe that's just when you're younger or something I don't know.

- It's a shame that people just can't be, you know be themselves. And just like, you know, we're sitting here now talking and you know, there's no sexual overtones involved. We're just talking about different topics and things about sex. But I mean, just being able to sit down and talk and not feel in any way obligated to make overtures for, towards another person or to make a date. As a consequence of talking.

- But here, we are sitting around and saying, wow it's really a shame, but how do we change it? What do you do?

- Like Mary, you and Kate were talking about how, you know the first day is such a painful thing and that there must be some way that we can get around that. And I don't know, like how do you do it if you, well the one thing you can just like if you're tying that common, like you have someone in the class and you see them over and over again and you kind of get to know each other. So that by the time the first day comes, it isn't too bad but I don't know how to get away from that.

- I sometimes wonder if it's all that bad thing I'll admit to some people it's been a bad thing for me but I haven't been that upset with first dates that I've gone out on.

- Are these first dates though, when people have just seen you, they call you up and you don't really know.

- Yeah I went to, for instance, I went to a girls school at high school. And so when I went out first date, it was, you know, very, very distant kind of situation. And you know, that partly could be me, but isn't it mostly also your indoctrination that's the way it is that I just have to accept this and make the best of it instead of offering an alternate suggestion, maybe.

- Well, yeah, I suppose that's part of it, but then I guess I never saw it as all that evil listening.

- We have a question here, I wanna get to. What age level are participants and have your attitudes changed about dating as you've gotten older?

- Little assumptions.

- Oh okay, well I'm 23.

- 18.

- And 22.

- 18.

- 22.

- 23.

- Yes, my attitudes have changed drastically as I've gotten older. I don't know whether it's because I've gotten older or because I've just started thinking about it more.

- Yeah I don't think my attitudes have changed drastically. I know, but I know that I have that I did have to go through all that first date thing and then my attitudes did change. So maybe they have to, yeah.

- One thing that has changed and you were talking about how we change things and it's my whole being you know, just capability of being honest about my expectations has changed a lot, you know just as I've gotten older, but I think that's where you can really begin to change the whole dating pattern and the way we go about meeting people. It's just in terms of being honest and getting out and talking about your motivations and your expectations of what, you know, what the relationship ought to be. And if you can get those kinds of things settled you have a lot easier time of getting to know someone like saying, well, are you looking for a husband? I'm looking for a wife and that's so.

- Well, I know in my own case, I've changed a lot because the first thing I had to overcome was the male chauvinist a view point of looking at the woman as something other than a sex addict. And when I was in high school that's the only way that I could relate to a woman. As I've gotten older I don't know. I suppose I've gotten wiser along the way, you know, women are really people and I just like them. And when I finally realized that, I mean it really sounds simple. It really sounds almost stupid to say make a comment like that. But I also realized for the first time, that women are just as smart as I am. And it was when I realized that I think then I began to realize that there was something in another person besides just their physical being that I wanted to find out about. And it's a long process and to growing one, I guess and that's gonna still keep on growing.

- I went to the girls school and so boys, high school boys were sort of Saturday night things, you know. And I'll admit.

- Big things .

- That what they were, you know, I think high school was so much fun. I enjoyed it so much, but when I did come to here to a co-ed college, you did get a different, I had much more respect for men. All of a sudden they could talk about something other than basketball and cars. You know, since I went to girls school that was something I couldn't talk about. So they probably thought I was dumb. But much more human attitude. And I think some of it is you've, I can figure out much more quickly if I'm going to like someone enough to want an extended relationship not necessarily a deep one, but one could bother wanting too more.

- We have a comment from a woman caller. She says, it's harder for a woman to call a man and ask him out because traditionally the man calls the woman and she figures that if he were interested he would call her. So the rejection is likely to be harder for a woman.

- I think that's probably true, yeah. she feels rejection and you know, he hasn't already, yeah.

- I think the woman ought to be able to handle that kind of rejection though. You know, she calls up somebody and he says, well I've got some, another friend that I'm seeing here I'm sorry. No, I wasn't impressed with you that much. This is a, it's a very, you know, it seems to be in the bag, the woman isn't liberated because you know rejection happens to, in all sorts of levels.

- Yeah what she saying that.

- Should be afraid of that especially on a first date kind of thing.

- Yeah I think though, what she's saying is true though that by the very fact that he didn't call, then you just assume, oh, well he's not too terribly nice to me so I'm not gonna bother him.

- You can't really assume that I don't think.

- But that's what women do women do to.

- You don't think they shouldn't?

- No, they should.

- 'Cause there could be a lot of reasons why you wouldn't call somebody up. You don't have a phone or, I'm busy I guess.

- This goes back to what Heather was talking about but I know a lot of people, but they judge the amount of interest, another person who hasn't been by the number of phone calls I get from him. And like, I know in one particular case that if a girl has called a guy say three times in a week or so. And the guy has not reciprocated by calling her. And then she feels like she is chasing him. And that he has no interest at all.

- Does the guy feel that way too, though, if a guy is.

- I don't think so, because I think it goes back to the traditional thing of a guy is supposed to be calling a girl.

- Okay I'm saying I'm asking more like, in terms of maybe if a guy has called me three times and I've rejected him three times.

- You rejected him, just talk to him.

- No, I was thinking more in terms of a question more in terms of.

- If you wanna go out Saturday night you say no three to four times.

- No, no, yeah. It would be nice if you could just say no, I don't want to, I don't wanna go out with you. You know, one thing I was talking about with a friend of mine was that, sometimes people feel very obligated like they really have to go out. And I think one thing that women should do and men too is that treat yourself kindly. I mean, if you want to do something, do it but if you don't want to, don't subject yourself to something that you, that you won't wanna do and people don't give themselves alternatives. I think, well, this person has called me twice. And I've said no twice it's about time, you know otherwise they're gonna think I'm really mean or something, you know, and you end up doing something you don't wanna do. And that's too bad.

- We have another question from a woman who is a, I guess it's a woman that I know, who's asking about the difference between dating type of relationship and friend type of relationship. It says if a dating relationship has evolved into a deeper relationship and then one of them backs out can they still remain friends or is this a phony attitude?

- I think it's easier to be friends with someone if you've had, if they say they've had a deeper relationship I think it should be possible to make remain friends to just realize.

- Not necessarily.

- I don't think so.

- And sometimes is so hard to do.

- Yeah so much history involved that you just, you know you have real trouble being friends.

- I think it depends mainly on the individuals but I think that.

- It depends on how it ended.

- That's the other point.

- But ideally, you gotta be able to just remain friends.

- If you had a deeper relationship, it shouldn't end some way that one person would feel burned. It should be feel like it's, you know, it's, I feel finished about this whole situation. And so does she, so does he.

- Well maybe not friends in the sense that, you know, while we can still see each other a lot, because I realized that would be hard but just not enemies or not, or kind of avoiding them or something. 'Cause that would seem like .

- If you could find that kind of friendship, it's just kind of a mutual acceptance, you're okay. If you've defined it as friendships of being really true intimate kind of friends and just, I don't think that can work.

- I think a lot of it depends on how the relationship developed from the beginning. It like if you originally after just a few, not actually getting to know the person, but just kind of jumped into bed with a person. I think that would make it pretty rough just to be friends afterwards. But if you start out at sort of a platonic level and just talk to the person and talk and got to know the person and then develop deep relationship I think it has to be possible to be friends afterwards.

- Are you talking about friends or yeah.

- Well mutual acceptance, I guess.

- Mutual acceptance.

- And being being able to talk with one another for more than five minutes.

- I don't know. Well I've been in the situation where I've been in a very deep relationship and he broke it off.

- And, which case you still wanna be friends and you can't.

- No, no, no, no, it's really strange. For some reason in this particular instance we are still good friends. And I think that it has to do a lot with how the relationship ended. There wasn't I've seen other relationships where they didn't just end when they should have ended you know, they drag on and there was a lot of hurt involved and people just kept hurting and you know one person didn't just have enough nerve to say, well we just can't do this anymore. I just don't feel this way anymore or something like that. And if there's a real history of just lots of hurt involved no matter what your mind says, well I still care about this person and I know, or whatever I'd like to be friends, your emotions just say, ah, hurt. I just can't take it. And maybe after a few years you can take it.

- Yeah, I think that's maybe eventually I don't think there are too many people after having a really deep relationship could just pick them up and take them to school the next day. I think that there would be a period just naturally of avoiding them after a while you could come to acceptance and then maybe into something a little more realistic.

- We have some more questions assuming that the idea of dating is bad. How would you as parents instill a different attitude for male, female relationships in your children?

- Wow, that's a good question. I think maybe just a more casual attitude towards, you know towards the other sex.

- You don't just force your kids to wanna date. I guess it will hurt.

- My mother called me up the other night and she said, are you dating? And I said, no mama I haven't been dating. She says, oh, Kate you really have to start dating.

- Awesome, I think the assumption in that question is that the parents have to act as the protectors of the children. And I'm really leery of that because I think parents need to kind of get away from that kind of a bag. I mean, it's really hard to not wanna protect your child because you want good things to happen for them and everything, but you've got to be a little bit more open to letting the child discover himself or herself and experience their own life and independence and growth. And you can't do that by trying to structure a safe relationship for them to be in.

- Well, yeah, but I remember talking to my little sister when she was first getting into this and she was asking me all kinds of questions about dating and, you know should I do this or should I do that and everything. And I remember telling her that, that the most important thing was to treat that person as a friend and, you know, and not hurt that person or you know, the same way you would treat, you know someone that you care about in a friend relationship. And it really has stayed with her. And she, you know, has really been grateful. I think for this, just someone not putting the kind of pressure on her that my mother tried to put on her.

- I think one of the things that parents could do and this goes back to my own child is, is allow their children to accept adults as equals in the sense that if they can learn to accept adults older people on the same level that they accept themselves and people their own age, then it'll be easier for them and the socialization process to go out later on and just accept anybody at any age level.

- We have another question. Do both men and women expect a good night kiss on the first date?

- Expect?

- Yes.

- I know I don't expect goodnight kiss on the first date. And usually I'm very leery about the whole situation cause I'm not really sure if they are expecting a good night kiss on the first date. And when I find out sometimes that they aren't expecting a goodnight kiss on the first date.

- You are relief.

- Yeah and then I just wanna kiss them.

- I think it's so individually and own, it varies for each person with each person that go out and, you know sometimes I will accept a first night kiss and sometimes I'll jump back and sometimes I'll give it. But, I don't know anybody expects or a lot of people hope for it maybe.

- But there's a whole question about some people, some girls think that I the guy's gone out and he spent a lot of money on me this is a whole dating situation. And, you know, I deserve, or he deserves a good night kiss for all the time spent on me. I've heard people's reactions this way.

- Buying a goodnight kiss .

- Yeah.

- I think we're talking really now it's the terms of the way that the sexual mores are just in college around the country. Is that we're talking about a lot more than a good night kiss on the first day. And that the expectations go well beyond that in terms of relationships, interaction you have with the person whether or not you're gonna sleep with the person on the first day, which is an interesting kind of question. Of how you get to know people and stuff.

- But I think in my own way in handling a date it's just whatever seems to be natural at the time. Because if you preplan a date and preplan what's gonna happen, you're gonna run into a lot of problems with stiffness and the whole bed. But if for instance, if you went to the door taking your date and she invited you in and things developed from there one way or the other, if that's natural that's fine. But if both of you have had a nice date or a nice evening and you go to the door and you both are standing there looking at each other, what the count, you know what's gonna come up next to me, the most logical thing is to say, well, good night and I'll see you later and leave. Goodnight kisses to me is this, I don't know. It's just exactly like it's like a handshake, it's really is.

- Right but I think a lot of men that I've talked to feel like they that if they don't at least try, then the women will think that there's something wrong with them or that you know, that they're not.

- I've heard men say that but I just have never met a woman that thinks that. I've often wondered if that's rationalization on the part of some men. I've never met a woman that thinks, well, if he doesn't try I'll admit after three or four days, he could try.

- If he doesn't try anything, that's kind of a.

- Yeah that's another thing.

- Yeah it's a good thing, something to be said for an icebreaker and then a good night kisses. You know, it's some, it's kind of an icebreaker in that sense. You know, you find out, you find out is how a person reacts to you. If you know, physically, there's a lot more going on than just a good night kiss. 'Cause you were you know, if you're both open to each other and you're wanting to be closer and that's a way of expressing it. And it's more than a handshake in a lot of ways although handshake, you know, aren't satisfying. I was outlining the handshake is about the same thing. But actually I think at least in my own experience unless the environment demands otherwise I think before you get to the door, you know, I mean.

- Well, I guess that's all for tonight. I wanna thank everyone for tuning into a Feminist Perspective. And I'd like to ask everyone to tune in next Monday night at seven o'clock when, once again we will present a Feminist Perspective.

- A Feminist Perspective is presented in cooperation with the office of the dean of women at the University of Kansas. It's eight o'clock time for news headlines.

- Good evening it's 19 degrees in Topeka, 21 degrees in Kansas City and 20 degrees here at broadcasting hall. This is Bob Lavante reporting, KANU Lawrence hourly headlines. Kansas representative Roger Turner says he has pre fought.