- This is Lorna Grins assistant Dean of women. Welcome to A Feminist Perspective. This weekly radio broadcast is sponsored by the women's resource and career planning center a program and information service of the Dean of women's office. 220 strong hall. A Feminist Perspective provides a forum for discussion of issues that concern women some very significant changes are occurring which affect the lives of both men and women and deserve our special attention. The women's resource and career planning center contains large amounts of information, news clippings, government documents magazine articles, and research studies, books which pertain to the many aspects of the women's movement. We invite you to come in and browse or take advantage of the materials that can be borrowed. That's in 220 strong hall at the University of Kansas. In previous programs, we have discussed the many influences that propel women toward motherhood almost automatically in this culture, we have pointed out that motherhood is not an appropriate or desirable choice for all women or all men. And very serious consideration should be given before a couple decides that to have a child. although no contraceptive method is a hundred percent protective, Women can exercise much greater control over reproduction today. It seems self-evident that a wanted child would be healthier and happier than an unwanted child, and that a man or woman who wanted to be a parent would be healthier and happier and better able to cope with the frustrations that might occur. Tonight we are going to discuss motherhood abuses. We would like to define abuse, discuss its causes, some of its results and the legal implications that exist with me this evening are Professor Sterling, lecture in social welfare department at the University of Kansas Ruth Ann Bean, probation officer from the Douglas County juvenile court Dean Ann Bullock, protective social worker from the Lawrence district office and Louise Cook from the Lawrence school system. She is a social worker there. I would like to begin by discussing what abuse is what kinds of definitions there might be. What is considered to be abuse of children.

- There are probably broad and narrower definitions of abuse. I think in the legal sense the law provides for a wide description of abuse, including physical, mental emotional kinds of abuse. But when the case gets to the courtroom they definitely can become somewhat narrower, especially if the effort is being made to remove a child from parents. When you're talking in the broader sense, I think any kind of deprivation that the child suffers all the way from love to physical needs to the proper kind of environment can be included in abuse.

- Done. I did a little reading and preparing for this program. And it was to find that the definition of abuse apparently emotional abuse or neglect is really not defined in the abuse and child protective legislation in any of the states except Minnesota. It's just recently apparently Minnesota, Minnesota has included in its description, its definition of abuse a consideration that the emotional life of the child is important.

- Yet in our state. We use a form under the metal part when reporting abuse. It includes such thing as aiding and abetting by exposure to chaotic or amoral surroundings bizarre or unstable behavior, being exploited for purposes of excavation threats. And I think this kind of thing I certainly must be considered emotional abuse.

- But the fact that it's not written into the law must have some implications at least as you are, I'm trying to cope with those particular situations or is that not true?

- Well, I think only the word emotional is not included in the law. It does specifically include mental abuse. And I think this would include emotional abuse too.

- I'd like to point out that I think very often some things occur that are not technically abuse but probably are abusive. It always is frustrating to me personally, to read of women who have been taking fertility pills to the extent that they do have a large number of births at the same time and that when the children are not healthy it seems to me as though that could fall into the category of abuse also. Somehow inhuman to me I guess. That's a value that I would have in defining abuse.

- I think speaking legally would be almost impossible to prove that as abuse, it's really a judgment on the part of the people and their attitude, nothing on where the mothers really felt that they had been abused, or that the children will be because of the large number of children. It's not so much a matter of the large numbers as it is that they're so often unhealthy that that concerns me. And of course, many of them don't survive, which may be predictive.

- On the other hand, I'm sure there have been and still are many mothers who have large numbers of children who are sorry the next time they become pregnant. And this happens to them primarily because they either don't know how to prevent pregnancy or for some kinds of religious reasons.

- Well, I have trouble with the... I'm looking at the child protective services or the notion of child abuse and neglect in those kinds of terms. I think or as many people as there are who would prefer to have smaller families there are probably just as many who by choice would want to have large families. And whether neglect is not necessarily from them in the sense of not caring for the children but really not having the resources. And much of my own experience I have a much greater sense that the neglect is much less from the parents than it is from the community in the sense of not having the kinds of services available for people who would want by choice to have more children and who are perfectly competent and capable of raising a healthy child but don't have a health facility available. Don't have childcare facilities available. If the parent, if both parents need to work, for example there are hardly any families these days who can afford not to have both parents work. where children live in and with parents who may have a health problem but not so serious that they need to be in hospital but we're homemaker service and visiting nurse services. It's all of the necessary, the neglect there occurs not out of of the parent's disenchantment with being parents but maybe you don't want to have the children and one do the best they can. And can't because they don't have the supportive services that are necessary from the community. Who's neglecting the child then?

- Yes, that's, it's really a good point, I think. And of course I think throughout this series of programs are our whole emphasis has been toward people's choice and making those choices and the conscious making of choices. So it's not, I don't mean to imply that large families are inherently bad. I agree entirely with what you're saying. In some of the reading that I've done, it was pointed out that if parents even had a place where they could temporarily leave a child, even just for a couple of hours where they could have some time by themselves together, or by themselves that that would in itself reduce the amount of physical abuse that there might be to the children. And in some communities, those kinds of drop-off nurseries I think they're called or something similar to that are being initiated to prevent that kind of of tension that most arise in in a parent and give them some alternatives to release that without abusing the children. I don't know if you have anything to add regarding that.

- You're talking about the choice that people make. And one of the things I see in my work with school-age children and with young unwed mothers, both of whom are thinking of becoming parents, or were actually on the way or have become parents many times. They're not sorry until later given the right to make a decision and having the knowledge with which to do that. They still sometimes change their mind when the reality becomes very, very real to them. Sometimes babies are very appealing. The thought of having something of one's very own is very strong. And yet when the time comes that the baby cries all night and you have to have money to feed the baby and you can't go and leave the baby, all these things become real. It becomes much more difficult. And I think what I'm saying is I think partly the schools have been at fault for not providing enough education for Parenthood but even if we did a better job I'm not certain that people take the long range view.

- Seriously.

- Seriously enough.

- I attended a meeting in Topeka a few weeks ago where several people, social workers who were in Topeka, and he had his, and as much as a 17 and 18 year old girl to keep their children their babies really wanted to. And one of the child, even though they weren't married the friends now are saying, if this ever happens to me I won't keep mine, because they see how much trouble they are in the crying and how just really much of a problem is that they decided they don't want to if and when it ever happens to them, even though they had originally thought, what's great, you know keep the babies really wanted.

- Well, there are so many things that influence girls as they're growing up and even adults the common ads on television show, the woman, you know in her trim pantsuit with her hair in a coiffeur waxing the floor for Heaven's sake all the non-realities that we have all around us certainly don't help to clarify what the reality will be in the long run or the short run either I guess. So people are fairly well programmed toward a very idealistic kind of image.

- Of course, the best way to be a good parent is to have had good parents. And unfortunately, many of the people who are going to be parents don't fall in that category. And I think as Professor Sterling said even apart from the school we need much more available public education about parenting either through departments of social welfare or school systems, adult education, mental health clinic is doing some of this already in our community, but I'm not sure it's reaching the people who need it at the moment.

- Okay. Well, are there any kinds of programs in the offing that will provide these things that we have pointed out are necessary public service programs? Or can we anticipate that we will continue in about the same way that we have been?

- I think there has been a change. We mentioned that the Bert Nash community mental health center is offering both here and in Baldwin programs directed toward being better parents.

- I think if there was one more publicity, bad knock I know a lot of people don't realize that they are having them. If there could be more ways to inform more people about them when they are and the fact that they are free that they don't have to pay for it.

- How would somebody contact that service if they were listening this evening and were interested?

- They could call Brit Nash community mental health center which is listed in the yellow pages under County government or in the regular white pages under Brit Nash.

- Are there any other helps that people might find, okay unfortunately I can't think of the agency but there is an agency that is helping women learn more about health care for their children helping them with menu planning and things like this especially for lower income that are in welfare and cannot buy food that is really necessary anymore. They're helping them find alternatives for better nutrition for the children.

- Can you extension service under only the Blevins and they have a new person in Mrs. Simpson they're starting even teaching kids in the sixth grade how to buy groceries economically how to prepare food well and going into many homes, teaching mothers, how to market how to organize their kitchen get the most from their food dollar.

- I think that's really important because like you pointed out earlier that so many people don't realize that they made a wrong decision until it is too late. The children are six or seven and all the pressures that they're facing now just completely build up and overwhelm them. And like Stan said, there is not enough available in the community to help them relieve these pressures.

- Yeah. And the thing that always troubles me is the notion that they made a mistake. And, you know, if what strikes me in the in the history of neglect and abuse they they've discovered in the research that that the notion of the willfully neglectful or abusive parent really has been disproven. And as they've tried to give service to abusive or neglectful parents, they found that there is no such thing as the unmotivated parent either provided the help is available and given in a way that people can use it.

- I think that's very true because I know the courts previously had the stand where any abused child had to be removed from the parents. There was no helpful

- There was none of that too.

- And there's a new trend now

- Not to remove the child from the home, it has to be on the very drastic circumstances now.

- And we have found that the parents can be worked with and are extremely motivated. Many of them don't realize that, you know especially physical abuse, many of them grew up being abused the same way, and they just didn't know any other way to deal with their children. And that was their only means of discipline.

- Yeah, it strikes me that the the women's lib thing you know, on the business of engaging a dialogue about whether women should have children, you know, there's I suspect that that we're being distracted in that dialogue from what may be a much more important problem. I suspect that many women that there are many more women who have decided not to have children based on the sense of wanting to be free and having the right to be free and decide for themselves what to achieve, and professions, and so on. They would still like to have children and aren't not because of the freedom issue, but because of the problems inherent in raising a child. And that we really haven't attended to the I lions love to see the women's lib that powerful group of people. Now they get to pay some attention, give some energy to the development of the community resources that the lack of which represents a deep community neglect of children, rather than parental neglect the the need for the childcare. Now, I know the women's lib groups have been pushing that all over and that's very important. but that's not all; the health services and the homemaker services and the visiting nurses and the the housing authorities, the well, yeah. Housing, all these services represent for parents whether they whether they have had children by choice or not, you know, they're probably, I got one I respond to is the notion that they made a mistake. You know, that much more often, I suspect it was a mistake not in terms of the person but it was a mistake because they find that they really don't have the resources necessary. There's no way they can anticipate all of the needs that children have that parents have in order to raise children. It's very true, I've yet to find in my experiences throughout my three years

- A parent that does not love their child. You know, I think if it was truly a mistake they would not have love anymore for their child.

- I do think though, as the result of the kind of movement, you're speaking of that there are some young people who are planning to make a deliberate choice to take adoptive children instead of having their own children, simply because of their great concern about the population explosion and ecological things.

- Well, and I think for some of them also an older child fits better into their career plan than an infant, you know where there's total dependence and those choices I think certainly are viable for people too.

- But the choice of an infant is precluded by the fact that the resources for taking care of the child aren't here. And the assumption that that each parent has to be responsible for his own, rather than the community being responsible for its children. I suspect this is a much more important problem.

- So in your, your opinions it's not even a matter of people being unable to find social support for relinquishing a child. If they do feel unable to help that child grow it's that is not what they even would desire to do.

- No, even in some of the most serious abuse cases which they're discovering now that separating the child from the family is not the solution. It does much more harm.

- I think Louise could speak to that that many children that we see even though they have bruises all over them they do not want to be removed. They don't want anything done because they do have this very strong attachment to their parents. And the parents can not be totally neglecting the child. You know, they are giving them the emotional, you know.

- The separation itself is almost as traumatic as the abuse they have suffered. And there are some instances where I agree that a temporary separation while the family is being worked with is really necessary for the protection and wellbeing of everybody concerned, but more and more it is possible to leave the child in the home while this is being accomplished.

- And we're going away from the idea that they have to be separated permanently.

- I think zero cases where the mother has children now and has previously had her children removed when it was the big thing to permanently remove children. And if you take the time to work with them or if it's necessary temporary removal it's very easy to work with her. If you take the time and the patience and help her put the resources that are available it's not necessary to remove these children. It probably wasn't necessary to have removed the original. The first one is where, when it was in at the time but it was the customary thing at the time.

- There are some instances that I think of where there has been mental and emotional abuse for a long period of time. And everybody around is kind of aware of it but it's very difficult to prove, to pinpoint to be very specific about and finally a child will come to school bruised and with some big black and blue marks on him or belt lashes, one thing or another. And you're almost glad when this occurs, right? Because it gives you then an opportunity to get your foot in the door to really help the family.

- Just straight emotional neglect is almost impossible to prove. It's basically when you get in the courtroom you don't have a chance.

- It's one of the best things about the new change in the law I think was the provision for juvenile protective services because even there in the case of emotional or mental abuse, very often, you're already acquainted with the family or the school is and you can go in and try to work with the family, not necessarily on the grounds of abuse, but for other related problems.

- And if we were able to instate some of these educational programs and some of the daycare facilities and so forth that Professor Sterling was suggesting then do you see that that would relieve this emotional abuse or psychological abuse problem also?

- I think you would certainly help it along. It wouldn't in all cases but a lot of them would...

- It would reduce some of the frustration that families suffer that leads to abuse so often.

- Well, I have it in my own notes something I was reading this last night, that is that 50% of the children in public foster care who have been placed because of neglect, sorry, 50% of the children in foster care were placed because of neglect. And the other studies demonstrating that the neglect has much more to do with the absence of resources and is a tremendous amount of money used in public welfare for public foster care, which the way that, you know that money could be very well used for the facilities for other services that could be done with the child remaining in the home and continued, continued work by by staff or professionals in, in the range of services being offered to parents who were, who appear to be neglecting their children, excuse me.

- Well, related to what you were saying. Yeah. Is the fact that not all abuse is committed by parents which we have sort of assumed while we're sitting here. And if we had better, more adequate daycare services there wouldn't be the abuse caused by babysitters that often happens many times. The care is inadequate, not only from a physical standpoint but from the mental and emotional standpoint. And sometimes it's quite, quite severe even leading to sexual abuse, things of this type and the parent may be actually ignorant of what's going on.

- So is there a consensus that even perhaps diverting some of the funds to different uses that are now available would would help greatly toward this problem? It's not necessarily a need for more funds as much as it is redistribution.

- I think even, even the idea that the math for foster care okay. And agreeable math, but the amount of regular public assistance grants that that welfare clients receive that addition of a child and the family from two to three the difference of 47 is $47. If that same child is placed in foster care, depending on the age, the foster parents will receive anywhere from two to four times an amount of money if they were more equalized, no it was a grants more equal to the amount that they paid for foster care the parents would have more opportunity to to do a good job.

- To do a good job, or to perhaps use the resources that you do have to pay for. You don't want a nominal fee. they can't just stretch it 122 or $169 to cover.

- We're coming close to the end of our time. But I would like to ask if any of you know anything further about such organizations as mothers anonymous or the crisis nurseries that we really are suggesting would go a long ways toward solving these problems without disrupting the family unit.

- I had a parent who had abused one of her children and when she was in Kansas city she had been affiliated with an organization there. I don't know that the name of mothers anonymous but it was a group of parents who had all had this in common that they had abused their children. And they did have professional counseling on a group basis. Yeah. She found it very helpful and was doing very good job of being a mother. When, when I came to New York after she moved here.

- At K U medical center they have a child abuse team that does quite a bit of work like this. I don't know of any ongoing groups, other than mental health clinics that really are not construction here in Lawrence at mothers from contact pretty much kept anonymous here. Right? Well, I think then that we have agreed that there there is a strong need for the community to be involved with families in order that care appropriate care can be provided for children and to relieve the parents of that responsibility that they now seem almost totally I would hope that those of you who are listening that have interest in this area might assist us in providing some of these resources. I don't know exactly how we might go about it but perhaps there are some things in this community even that we could, we could begin to develop or some new groups that have been established other places that we could model after. I do hope that you have enjoyed the discussion and found it informative and that you will respond to it if you wish. And again, we welcome you to come to the women's resource and career planning center at 222 strong home. We hope you'll be listening again next week.