- ... Secondary education. Had a responsibility there for assisting in the development of two of the units of the Parkway Program. Serving as a representative of the program at a number of different conventions and congresses and planning sessions, in that setting as administrative leader who was responsible for supervising university interns from colleges and universities across the country, Resulting, in July of last year, to the University Without Walls Program at Howard University as a director and coordinator of special programs. It's from the combination of these vantage points that she has, in relation to her educational experience, assembled over 14 years of diversified experience in teaching, guidance and administration; and supervision of leadership activities and innovative educational programs, human relations and human dynamics aspects of supervising these programs, throughout the program development coordination. From these vantage points and with this background, brings to us a very rich set of experiences and unique perspectives, as she addresses for us this morning her mantra of making the cup equal for educational opportunity: "A Bridge Over Troubled Water". It is my pleasure and privilege to present to you at this time Mrs. Anita E. Hackney, our speaker today.

- Thank you, Dr. Omicott, and good morning, travelers along the educational highway. I've lived in Kansas, one of the four FAs. Students working definitely had many of our essential thousands of students across the nation and the world were discussing problems relating to Christian ethics goals. I feel from one's home, as it were, visiting the University of Kansas, I had forgotten that I was speaking to, that I had also been a little . I had come in to see the uncle of a friend of ours who was traveling with us, and we'd would go to a barbershop and said, "Hello," to the man. We were on our way back to a town in Oklahoma. It happened that we were hungry and decided that we would stop at a diner. And after having consumed the meal, we attempted to pay for the bill with a traveler's check. We handed it to the waitress, and asked her was it acceptable? And she said, "I hear about 'em, but I ain't never seen them." She nonetheless took the check, but that was my experience of coffee bills in Kansas in a diner. Ofttimes when you are invited to attend a conference and participate in it, the farther it is away, the easier it is for you to decide that yes, you'd be most happy to participate. And the closer it gets, all of us being human, become somewhat apprehensive. I would like this morning to speak with you as opposed to to you. We are so accustomed in the traditional sense, of having a microphone placed here. You're confined, no movement whatsoever; if I move over here, or over here, you can't hear me very well. My voice does not have that kind of projection power. I'm going to attempt, however, to speak with you as opposed to you this morning, so that we can add somewhat of a different flavor, perhaps. So, I will be asking you to participate as we proceed. To paraphrase in the words of Martin Luther King: if there's only one light in your underbelly, what can adjust to the dark, it's rather difficult. Now is the time, what can be given from this light? No, just the time. Now is the time to make education a reality for all students. It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: we shall hold these truths to be self-evident; that all students should inherit an equal opportunity to learn. It occurred to me that in our efforts to search for alternative approaches, such an essential theme, nontraditional study suggests, perhaps we, while operating in earnest, are not really earnestly probing for problems, as much as the . With all due respect to peer report of those scholars whose feathers become immediately ruffled at the mere suggestion that the solutions have been overlooked, there are three points I'd like to bring to you. One, related to fallacies, and I have likened them to educators; the point of elitism in education; the barriers that prevent more educational opportunity qualities. And then we come all the way to the positive bridge. Have not equal educational opportunities represented a bridge over troubled waters? What then is missing? Either the root's in the commission or omission. Not only that, have we really defined equal educational opportunity? Crossed even one bridge over troubled waters? To paraphrase some of what Robert K. Merton concerned himself with, in "Discrimination and the American Creed" as discussed by Edward Ludwig in "Fallacy of the Symbolic Solution", educators are limited in effective action by several fallacies, to which an educator is particularly prone. I suggest to you, the fallacy of group soliloquies, the fallacy of unanimity, and the fallacy of privatized solutions. The fallacy of group soliloquies is one, in which I dare say, some well-meaning educators seek each other out whilst meeting on significant topics. You're familiar with the weakness that educators possess, in talking to themselves, and thus support each other socially and psychologically. The affirmation aforementioned leads me to the fallacy of unanimity. I ask you, if that same group of educators continues to associate with each other, would they not begin, in time, to assume some sense of consensus related to their views? Or better yet, be lulled into an illusion that a large measure of consensus has been achieved in the community at large? The next one is the fallacy of privatized solutions, demonstrated by the contentment that is construed, through views and behavior, indicating that there is no need for solutions of any problems, because the house is in order. Perhaps, there's disagreement here, related to the suggestion of the existence of any such fallacy on the part of the educators, I dare say. However, it cannot be denied that traditional and non-traditional study must have lent itself even more to . Nonetheless, we're assembled here discussing issues, which are not only awesome in schools, but complex in education. And also, not from the to the case in point which is the topic before educational opportunity, which for all its purposes and intentions, which all intents and purposes for generations have not lent themselves to have a bridge over troubled waters. I don't know whether there are those of you, who are familiar with those three fallacies, but would you entertain now, some discussion as to whether there is any agreement on the fallacy of group soliloquies, or the fallacy of unanimity or the fallacy of privatized indicators. Medusa?

- Think so.

- To respond to this moment, but as I recall, what's this lady going to say? Am I going to disagree with her? Where is she coming from? Whom, hand on heart.

- It's here.

- What I know. What gives here, why am I here? Why are you here? Do you know? Are you here because it happens that someone paid your way? Are you here because it's an adventure? Are you here because it is convenient to talk to people who look just like you? What kind of a challenge would you have if, let's say, the Chamber of Commerce were here this morning or the American Association of Television Writers were here? What's your reaction if you were the speaker here and whereas ahead of time you knew that your speech was going to be taped, or to just know that someone in the audience would also be taping you? What other aims? Have I fulfilled any prophesy? I see some smiles on some faces, I see some smirks on others. I see protoplasm elsewhere. Nothing bothers me. Proper smirks happened I liken this . We are all prone to talk to our friends and thems who don't do anything become somewhat myopic in their views. That elitism surrounds education is undeniable. Yet, overcoming a traditional college education is quite a hurdle. Where were you once you had graduated from college, those of you who have? What had you planned to do? How prepared were you to do anything? It has been for sometime a blinding experience, to literally continue to expose our own children and talking to John Valentine about a month ago, we were talking about the very problem. The fact that even though we think that a college education is just the thing for our children, and whereas we may not have felt completely satisfied at the end of our own experience, we place the blame on ourselves, what did or did not happen during our college years. But at no time do we make any suggestions as to the fact that perhaps there was something wrong with that college education. Yes, we recognized the advantages bonded to it; yes, we recognized the advantage of going to the and the disadvantage of . Why does one become a disgrace to his family if he has not attended the college encumbrance? Some of you have had experiences, in which certain companies will not hire you without a college education, even though the personnel officer handling your case has been unfortunately the, depending on your point of view, semi-idle drop-out. Other agencies care less whether your degree is indifferent, if it affords them the opportunity to develop computer printouts highlighting the number of college professionals . Much more can be said here in reference to elite education, especially the view which the diagram at the back of equal educational opportunity . Entire education does lend itself as a forum for the exchange of ideas, dissemination of new information and research of some profound problem or new bridge. Better for it to come to a close to construct a bridge or the problem was more people, not only from intuition of the wise, you see I know someone that my father is and don't forget the . I cannot emphasize enough the strong move towards a standing educational opportunity must prevail. The barriers to opportunity must be removed. From an economic perspective, one must note that there is inadequate acceptance on the part of the state for national agencies of financially guaranteed education. Timing based on these of politics, funds and specifics of operation, preparing even to dilute discussions on the matter. Perhaps there is a load of you, who can supply the rationale for the prevailing factor dogging the delay of the appropriations of senate bill 659 for education section three regarding higher education. I ask you, is it not in the national interest to provide at the federal level, an equal educational opportunity from funds for the following, as defined in that very bill. Student aid, direct learning loans, college work-study programs, education opportunity grants, guaranteed student loans, student loan marketing associations, basic education opportunity grants, upward bound , special services which were mentioned by the speaker yesterday, grants to states for state scholarship, institutional aid. Not to discuss economic barriers as they relate to equal educational opportunity is analogous to a cart without a horse. Therefore, no discussion of non-traditional studies should omit dollars and cents, spelt either C-E-N-T-S or S-E-N-S-E. Student protests, demonstrations, drop-ins, even drop-outs, disenchantment with the system have attested to the fragility and the vulnerability of institutions of higher education. One of my friends is going to speak now, on what else I propose would just be considered resting their arms. My word, where are we with education? Educators . Higher education intervention models, purveyed our academic sense. Few models, as you well know are in community colleges, in colleges in the summer, open education efforts, University Without Walls. None of which has proceeded as a panacea, or would you believe a bridge. Having agreed earlier that it is at the level of higher education that knowledge is truly disseminated, and given the fact that its representing unrest, we must conclude that perhaps there is merit in covering up our barriers. That's the form of University Without Walls, particularly as I am somewhat familiar with it. It can be viewed, you know, like the bridge over troubled waters. For it certainly doesn't allow a second chance, for a woman chose a husband and children at an early age; for the Vietnam veterans who elected to interrupt their college education, for the man . For the young woman who just does not have a family, for the man the high school drop-out was implied. All foolish, but what alternative approach ? University Without Walls is powerful. As a member of the consortium of colleges and universities across the United States, to commendate University Without Walls under the union where experimenting colleges currently college. So, Yellow Springs, Ohio. Let's have the usual spacial and temporal witness; if it doesn't consider the classroom to be the principal instrument of instruction, then I think in terms of spacial and temporal can inbalance as space is concerned, repeat not all of the forces in the hope of an institution, nor we do have the confines or the constraints of freshman, sophomore, junior, senior year. The program is designed for the self-directed, well-motivated students, and comes in a broad backgrounds and interests. From the classroom, utilization of names and city information in the world, students develop their neural . As the rationale for this alternative approach, our research is not designed as a panacea. Consideration has been given to a new direction in education based on studies related to protests, drop-outs, and I considered, the drop-ins; for some of these students were just that, drop-ins and they too deserve our attention. If we consider each individual a mirror, we must treat each individual as wholly truly believes in their . In the words of an African in response to why I wish to enter the University Without Walls. No four walls closing in on me, no brighter pupils making a fool of me, no irrelevant tests, unnerving, scattering my mind, all of the guidance, work, salvation I find. This was written by a 57 year old woman with a BA and an MA who wanted to enter the University Without Walls, because it wasn't an alternative approach and she wanted to write a father of her people as her contribution. During the early stages, the very nature of the special program dictated that in as much as planning ends up , autonomy was needed but would not have been procedures which were indigenous to the University Without Walls. And none of these programs can proceed unless they are given some autonomy. In response to the aforementioned disenchantment, this is a lull our feel of the objectives, people like Alan suggested the other evening that perhaps it would be wise not to set goals and objectives at the outset, he argued. Bear in mind, though, that some of these objectives were espoused wild to the exceptions of the University Without Walls. This however, does not detail an imbalance. To affect an atmosphere in which there is a mix of various activities to conference in the classroom, workshops, internships, seminars, independent study, whilst altering in this decade for humane approach, individual . Where the curriculum domain couldn't be faulted to generate on occasion a new breed of . Holding up a sense as well as . And the best construction , to create a faculty outside of the whose faculties could teach new specialties, worked in concert with the greater battle, to enhance the learning stage process of students, to serve as a springboard for students to offer a noteworthy contribution which is not only a , but also valuable . To broaden the learning resources with and for students, who would be uncaptivated in industry and government and to encourage strong emphasis on students' direction and self-motivation, which will nurture, if you will, a lifelong learner and not, as so many have become, finished products. I indicated earlier that I would rather speak with you as opposed to you. However, I noticed that even with some of the polite listening to which we have all become accustomed, I don't see any evidences of an exchange at this point. If you would like to interrupt and ask me a question as I'm moving along, I'd be most happy to respond. Are there questions from the floor? Primarily, the students who have enrolled in our University Without Walls are older as opposed to the 16-20 years. They have some experience and have pursued post-graduate studies. This is due to agree precisely on current enrolled. They're pursuing degrees in the college of liberal arts, the college of fine arts, the school of engineering, the school of education and the school of business and public administration. One student arrived, a student in the pilot program, who at the outset indicated that he would like to prove the worthy of the University Without Walls. He was sponsored by his company, making frequent trips to Europe as a follow-up of anthropological studies, sponsored by American universities. The purpose of the trips was to ascertain methodology, using the invariant problems and in particular therapy in co-operatives. Intending to use this exposure to develop a comparative analysis of US co-operatives, focuses on potential indecision. This project would be one of a three part module. He proposes to use reference to theory also in his study of the social studies, social sciences. The academic community thus far at Howard has been gracious in assisting him, but this is very hard for the advisors who have welcomed this new challenge. It is our hope to be within the fabric of the university, not conservative to it, in such a manner as to not only further foster a rich learning experience set-up, but also serve as a catalyst for continuous change. Eugene Dinar, one of our pilot students, offered these pertinent thoughts. It happens that Eugene decided to be on our program when starting his degree at the college of liberal arts, having done a study in art history on a comparison of Mayan and Chou art. He said, at the outset of this program that he was in a hurry; he was 71 and he didn't have much time. In fact, he became 72 this past August and wanted to know from me if I thought it wise for him to enter graduate school. And he said, he's finding one of the, the reason why he wanted to know if he should enter graduate school was that it was quite unreal to him that that's what he wanted to do. But if I gave him some advice, and if I suggested to him what graduate school could be, according to him , He said, it's like this: the most important feature of the University Without Walls which I contemplated upon participation, was an individually tailored program. This still remains the dominant appeal, in my opinion, now that I have earned the batchelor of arts degree that I wanted at Howard University. But it seems to me, that the success of such an individually structured program depends primarily upon two things, one, that the candidate's motivation, however good, is matched by his capacity to execute this program. And two, that the appointed advisor's confidence be matched by his sympathy and understanding of the basics of the University Without Walls and philosophies. The latter seems crucial to me, he says and he goes on, "Especially in the case of the less aggressive. The advisor's function is not so much to arouse interest, as to sustain the individual's determination to execute successfully each step in his march towards his objective." We have had some semblance of how with one relating to a hook-up with the government of the Virgin Islands, it was there. We have a hook-up currently with the District of Columbia Correctional Department, that we've been approached by the Community Mental Health Association as well as finding the appropriate studies. So there are other avenues in which you can become involved in these programs such as today. Question: what then is perceived as it progresses? Most assuredly, in our program purpose, the development of alternatives which in the context of equal educational opportunity is a bridge over troubled waters, to the extent that their research proves us worthy, we shall have overcome. Admittedly, it is truly subsumed too. Remembering that they are in a trend we must appear to be totally strong and . We must not, however, shrink or shirk from a responsibility to offer equal educational opportunities as the bridge over troubled waters. In conclusion to paraphrase Bobby Kennedy, though men dream dreams and ask, "Why", some men dream dreams and ask, "Why not?" We didn't join the union of experiment at Howard. I said under the umbrella of traditionally, you see there was no grant to the institutions that were participating, half of which came within the arms of education, and half of which came from a poor foundation. We did not join the union.

- It is as fascinating, a typical lecture, some of the that would be followed by people I would like to do something about the kinds of activities. I don't think an internship would be of worth, and I don't think that some , think it would work on campus, and what kind of things is possible?

- Right now, the mix from the gamut, there is no correspondence work that involves pens, this is truly people, not paper, and I said this to a couple of other people . In no way whatsoever is this considered as we have organized it, it is no way whatsoever considered paper or correspondence, it is truly people. All our students are required, and this is indigenous to our program, this is our requirement for the program, one of the reasons why as I introduce the material I did not mention . You may very well ask someone in another the , but it so happens that our students are required to come to the university to spend the day once a month. There is an all day seminar planned, for the reason that we feel, three or four things related to it. One is the fact that students who are entering upon this type of program, in which they plan their own contract, with the assistance of a advisor, truly needs support of the students. And if they do not come to the university at all, then they are left floundering. When they do come to the university for the seminars and are able to exchange ideas related to where they are in time, how they arrived at that point, what kind of problems they have, they offer in support for each other. And ofttimes we find that in those seminars there isn't even the need for a leader as it were, or a convener of the seminar, because the students take responsibility upon themselves. As I said, ours simply happen to be, by chance mid-career people. As for the kinds of programs which they pursued, we have several. I have a 19 year old student who needs some assistance in the basics: reading, writing and computing, so to say. It happens that at this moment he is involved in a social significant study period. He is involved in a social science course and English course and a math course, sorry. This, for him, would be considered a traditional program, in terms of the courses, but I dare say that in weaving through the fabric, we do not negate the traditional, because you see you cannot function if you are not, if you do not have those basics related to reading, writing and computing, and I think it's foolhardy to even allow a student to believe that he is equipped and can continue without having the firm foundation. It happens that he's literate in engineering, and he thought that in as much that he has spent one or more months in a period, that the next time he would just indicate to me that he wished to pursue the engineering and I thought that it counted, and was able to have him understand. Now I have two students, who I think it was Howard Walker, I'm not sure, that suggested, no it wasn't, it was . You really need to have students who can support themselves academically in order to be able to prove that this kind of an alternative approach will succeed and is valued by students. I agree with the gent, but none the less, it's really incumbent upon us to offer the opportunity to other students in order to be able to prove that an alternative approach can work for students, irrespective as to where they find themselves. Now, we have other students who are ... We have one student who happens to be employed in a bank and you see what he's doing there is using part of the time of a module, part of the time in which he is involved in the bank and supervised by a banking officer. He's using that as an internship. You see, the students are allowed the opportunity to select segments and put them together, so long as they are valid and related to their stated goal. You see, the students are at various levels, depending on where they were when they first entered the program. If in fact, someone has come in with multiple experience as it were, and it does in fact relate it to their goal, they are given credit for the past experience, so long as they can document and validate it. I said I did not , but it would be validated. In cases where you will find some older students who have done a modules 55, and she's a mental health therapist and she's in the area of art. If it happens that someone, who was participating in her life as it were, somewhere along the way, is no longer with us, this is rather difficult for her to be able to document a given experience, and so understandably, in that individual case, you would not require the kind of documentation that would be provided or otherwise. And it would be unfair, you see, not to give her credit so long as she can ... If she can write it, much the way to make it understandable, to an advisor who has the expertise in her field, you see, or in addition that she could prove a competency in whatever manner she suggests in the ... The advisors are, I'll not get into that, I'm going to . Have I answered all of the aspects of your question?

- One aspect that I had, this young man working at the bank I'd say he would profit by some advanced college achievement. He can't go to the campus and take a course.

- Yes, he can.

- But suppose he can't, suppose he's limited by it, but can he go at night, is that it?

- Yes, or it could happen intuitively, were we willing to arrange for .

- Could he study by himself and then go to the campus to take an examination?

- Yes, he could do that. Counting these good bit of attention for Howard but other than that, that's not where the guys .

- To motivate and match the motivation and develop it. How do you decide that ?

- Are you talking about the 71-year old?

- I think that was the one that you used the term match the motivation.

- Oh, the match motivation was on the part of the advisor.

- On the part of the advisor, and the enthusiasm that the advisor exhibits for the program.

- How do you in power decide how much credit you get for the man working in the bank, or other kinds of experience?

- That falls on the shoulders of the advisor. You see, if they are satisfied; you see it is the advisor within a given department, school or college who is the person who is instrumental in weaving that degree, that's a valid degree through that department, you see. And if he does not feel that this particular student is confident in a given area, then that is unacceptable. But it's he and the student work it out, it's not, you know, I say so .

- You say that advisor is somewhere between the community and the campus, he specializes in knowing what his field experience is to be and knowing the throws of the information inflicted on the student in his contract, but eventually, seems to me there's a whole realm here

- I would suggest that is. Yes?

- Do these advisors ?

- Yes, they are.

- Do they advise on short range, long range, or whatever is appropriate?

- Short, long and whatever seems appropriate, yes they do.

- Can the student change advisor?

- No, the main advisor does not change, not unless there is some unalterable or a balance.

- Called the base advisor?

- Yes, that's true.

- Sub-advisor?

- Yes, we call them adjunct advisors. I had two students who were located geographically in Petersburg, Virginia, and they have a full time faculty advisor at Howard, and they had adjunct advisors in Petersburg.

- How is this administered though; does the advisor have an administrative role or is he primarily a faculty advisor?

- How do you perceive administrator role as related to an advisory?

- Its pursuiantly, possibly as a

- He's not a registered keeper. Assuming he's responsible, he's given a documentation process and assumes he's responsible for seeing that those records are kept in order. The advisor's role there is to sign those, if there are some forms in which he has to make some entry, but he doesn't have an administrative load as it were.

- I'm talking about the possibility that this may In other words, person who really knows his part in using this close relationship with a individual student will take the time for other things. How is he compensated aside from the intangibles, as I think we all understand it?

- Well, I think those intangibles are sometimes not sufficient.

- Well, you haven't answered my question.

- I am suggesting to you ... No, I am not suggesting to you, I am saying to you that in our experience the rewards are in assisting in a new venture in the life of a student. There are no monetary benefits accrued here.

- Would the professional people who are trying to sell that notion of accountability to people and insist upon non-traditional

- I don't know that I'm reading all that you're saying.

- I want to know how to rip off for nothing.

- Well, you see.

- We're already doing it. The really good guys are currently co-operative. No professor would even be .

- And?

- Notices the professor who can't afford much of an education.

- No, I have some new assistants from working with us.

- No, I don't want to generalize your acceptance paradigm.

- Yes and they-

- You guys suggest be the answers to the kind of define the problem. I intuitively know the answer, but I want to find somebody who is already . Why should we shy away from paying this person?

- There isn't a question of shying away from paying the person. It's a question of accounting. We have, some institutions rather selfishly post here as it were, this morning about the and his benefit and he had been given either two or three years to plan the program at Ottawa. And I did comment to him at the time, we didn't have that advantage in terms of planning. I came aboard in July of '71, I was asked at what point did I believe that we would be able to take in students, and I said that my guess would be January '72. It was suggested to me, how about September '71? So you see, for that reason, that's one of the that with each time that the question of a monetary reward are problems that we really have not solved. It just happens right now that we were very, very lucky in terms of the advisors and they are crucial to the program or any program in these circumstances would pull immediately if those advisors elected not to participate in the manner in which they have. It's a very knotty problem.

- The advisors, are they given some kind of status at Howard, Howard that isn't in the merit system ...

- It's not that the merit system in a concrete sense but I dare say the fact that for those that have published and it has happened that we are very fortunate. We've been under the umbrella of the vice president for academic affairs and this is one of the reasons why we have the autonomy that we do, because he is in full agreement with the program. That allows us the privilege to develop just along as we go, are able to beyond more, we keep in touch with him, there are no questions asked. We do not have to go to him and ask him, but the very fact that you see, he has the lens, he knows what's taking place and then I always forward to the head of the department and the deans of the various schools, the deans of the advisors who are assisting the students in the area in which they are involved. And I imagine that's it's the required way invited to play a role. Oh, yes? The second part of your question, we accept . The first part of your question as to the University of Maryland accepting the , yes I know, but let's say a student from the University Without Walls at Howard has been accepted by a school B for example, that remains to be seen. I do not anticipate, however, that we will have difficulties with that. And I think the trend today, in terms of who you are as an individual plays a great deal in your life as you attempt to enter the graduate schools. And I don't think graduate schools are leaning as much as they want distinguish yourself in areas X, Y and Z. Yes?

- They worried about this too, and it's in a very few years they were accepted as many graduate schools and in fact now, looking at their experience, the people who have accepted them are begging for more of them back. So, I think that it will be the experience that people will try it.

- Now, I had the same question raised which was a secondary alternative approach and oddly enough, oh I can't think any area of the country where there was a school to which a student applied and he or she was not accepted. In defense, university which was around the corner from us.

- I wonder if you could say a little bit more about with relation to the Howard undergraduates . Is your program ?

- Yes, they would insist that the regular question was would regular Howard undergraduates be suitable to our program. And the answer is, yes they would be acceptable to our program. We are attempting now, however, to offer the opportunity to people in the community and in the metropolitan area, who are not now involved in a college situation. The undergraduates are already there, and once we have moved beyond the rather precarious stage of developing and planning at the same time, you see, that's a segment of the population which we will encompass.

- Is the effect of the traditional study now have any real effect on .

- Repeat that about contractors.

- Well, the idea of a student working .

- Yes, these students develop their contract.

- My question was, whether or not that is happening in the traditional program?

- No, that is not currently happening in the university and college, no it is not. Oh boy, that would be one of the changes that may be effective in the years of college.

- Is it a feature of the counselor to necessarily demonstrate the subtleties that are required in certain areas, or do they just have to go through the experience?

- Now, that depends on how the advisor happens to feel about it at that time. If he is able to accept it as it is, then that's all right. if he feels that there's some question and there ought to be some demonstrated competency, then there is, it's open.

- By what authority then, can the counselor accept this experience ...

- That is an authority which is given to him and the advisor through the advisory committee of the University Without Walls.

- So, once a councilor determines his student has this amount of credit accepted, no ?

- No, I prefer the question, as long as he is able to support through his department and college. Now, they raise up questions about it, you see, there may be something else he would have to do, but he has the authority to do that. Yes?

- Are there grades in the University Without Walls?

- No, there are no grades given. You're given "satisfactory" or "incomplete".

- That is, excuse me a moment, "satisfactory" and "incomplete" apply to the seminars internships. For the regular courses, as an example, a young man, as I said, was taking the three courses. He would receive grades, you see, because his coursework is done through the regular university, and he would have a transcript which would read as a regular transcript does. But our transcript, which we will be submitting in conjunction with the regular transcript, would in the case of a transfer or move to a graduate school. You see, in the narrative, the descriptive form has there the request to the "satisfactory" or "incomplete". The students were allowed the privilege to have that "incomplete" changed to a "satisfactory" at a given point. He's always given credit for as much as he has done as opposed to having a scale from A through F and in the 59 a fail for instance. What you have from . How will that transport be interpreted by the student . Do we have a problem here of not getting credit towards a transfer here, you automatically receive payment, this is for the transfer to the university.

- That's a good question. I hadn't even thought of applying to be an accountant to tell you the truth.

- Wow, that's ...

- And that will alter the scale as to the , I had not considered it, it never occurred. Thanks for asking though, keep that in mind from now on, yes?

- Would you be kind enough to repeat that? How do you see it leaving our ? You weren't given credit? Yes, sir. That's a thought. One of the reasons why we are unable to receive a degree at Howard, unless you remain in the program for one year, is based on just that. The fact that you do in fact have an opportunity to expand it further, irrespective as to how much of the experience you have had and irrespective of the area in which it has been. There are some programs which allow you to improve your competency and receive your degree in three months, right? We maintain that that's not really valid. And not only that, it lends itself to the paths of people who indicated the degree bill and for that reason, we allow that year of study.

- How transferrable do you think this approach to learning? I guess what I'm asking is, when do you see this becoming the norm?

- I don't know, I just have high hopes for one, and a great deal of enthusiasm in terms of a catalyst for change in the areas that most, with which most of us would agree. I don't know if it's all been by itself, you see, it will become the main thing. I doubt its would really become emancipated. I think it's such a tremendous venture, in terms of the individual, it would be rather difficult for it to become considered traditional. Well the hope is it is threaded through and if it is threaded through, you see, then you negate that aspect of it. At Howard, I have personally elected to see that it does in fact spread itself through. There's the question of accreditation of whether they'll allow a degree or not. In order to ensure this, I continue to believe, that if we do in fact thread our way through our chances, our excellence in terms of accreditation. This is not to say that later, perhaps there may be avenues, you see, where you have to go this way, and you'll be on firm ground. And you'll have to be really rather well, before you begin . Do you have a question, Sam?

- What student program are they able ?

- What student isn't unable to reach? No, I don't. Not in terms of the cross-section that we have, and in terms of numerous inquiries. And we have an applications that are in now for the January study period. Now, I can see that we have not run the gamut, in terms of a , yes?

- And then you added implied that through, let's say, college it may be a common theme, obviously could prove what he did.

- Most students have a team and there is one main advisor, but most students have a team in which there are other people involved in the process other than the advisor. It's simply the advisor that, that's the person that's ultimately responsible. As I talked about the departments and the needs of colleges, you'll see what it's degree granting time ...