- [Walter] Good evening. Thank you for joining us for a Feminist Perspective. Usually, Dean Emily Taylor is the moderator for the show, but for this evening's program, I'm going to be the moderator. My name is Walter Smith, and I'm also on the Dean of women's staff at the University of Kansas. The Feminist Perspective radio broadcast is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, a program and information service of the Dean of Women's Office, 222 Strong Hall. Located in the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center is a large lending resource service which contains a great deal of information in the form of news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, film strips, tapes, and books pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We should like to invite you to come in to browse or take advantage of this lending service. That's in 222 Strong Hall at the University of Kansas. The materials in the Resource and Career Planning Center are as valuable for men as for women since sex role definitions and stereotypes affect both sexes. We invite you also to come to this office if there are matters you wish to discuss with someone. Whatever concerns you as women or about women is of concern to us also. Tonight's program is the second in the series that we we're doing on women and career. Upcoming topics on this series will deal with psychological and attitudinal kind of barriers to women's employment, laws that affect women's employment, and what are the good opportunities for women seeking employment. But tonight's topic is a kind of question that I think that I get asked more than any other question when people are coming for advice about careers. And the question goes something like this, "What can I do when I really don't know how to do anything?" Or another way to ask it is, "What can I do with my college education if I really didn't study anything in particular while I was here?" Tonight's guests discussing this kind of question and how to answer it are Barbara Newsome who is involved with continuing education at the University of Kansas, Gladys Pagett, who is a placement director for the college of liberal arts and science at the University of Kansas. And finally, Casey Ike, who is also a member of the staff for the Dean of Women's Office here at KU. Well, going back to our question, what can I do but I don't know how to do anything? What kind of people tend to ask this question of you people? - [Casey] Well speaking from my standpoint in talking with students, is the, maybe it's the senior who's graduating this coming semester and she has no idea, you know, what she can do or even where to begin to look. So that's mostly the person I have contact with. And also there are, you know, sophomores and juniors who are thinking the same question especially in regard to what they're going to major in and what's going to be best to major in, you know, for certain jobs and a major in psychology, what's the prospects for jobs in psychology? So I talk to mainly to the students. Barbara, you probably talk more to older women? - [Barbara] Right, I certainly do. These would be women who are many times we say over 21 and this brings several variables into play. For example, we talk with women who may have had one kind of career line, perhaps they've been working in clerical accounting positions for some time and they are completing a bachelor's degree and would like to change careers. So that they are asking perhaps mid degree, you know, what should I be looking forward to or toward in terms of a career line. We also deal quite frequently with women who have part of a bachelor's degree and are finishing it after a period of time, perhaps after raising a family or being away from school or work. And the same question comes up, particularly for those who need to have a general degree major in order to complete their requirements quickly. - [Walter] So you have found women who are maybe retooling to come into a different kind of field? - [Barbara] Yes, very definitely. - [Walter] And also the kind of person who is going to return to school and get some training and then go into the job market or somebody who maybe has received some training but is ready to enter now. - [Barbara] Right, right. And one of the main factors for the adult student or the continuing education student is time. Many times it is not really to their advantage to start completely over again with a newer occupational major. So we're really thinking creatively in terms of how to use your present credentials. This is something we face quite constantly and I think in increasing numbers. - [Walter] Well while we're talking about that, does somebody have to be interested in taking some courses in order to come in and talk with you about their career plans? - [Barbara] Not at all. I suppose you're talking about the continuing education service at KU. - Mm-hmm, yes. - [Barbara] Any discussion, counseling or whatever leading to coursework is entirely free to those that might be considering going back to school at KU or at other universities. We, for example, will be able to provide information about independent study at other universities. - [Walter] So somebody wouldn't necessarily have to come to someplace to take classes, they could do it at home if they wanted to. - [Barbara] Exactly. And this kind of inquiry is a service provided to anyone interested in continuing their education. Certain forms of in-depth counseling such as vocational testing or career testing and counseling would carry a small fee, but certainly just the general kind of advisement to the continuing education student is a service we provide. - [Walter] And how could they locate you other than perhaps calling our office, the Dean of Women's Office and asking for a telephone number that we could give? But how would they get hold of you more directly? - [Barbara] Call the continuing education division and I believe it's listed that way in information. - [Walter] We got a little bit ahead of ourselves there. We're talking about how to get into the training and that sort of thing, but let's go back to this person who is asking the question,. Can you give us any personal examples of people that, you know, anonymous, that have come in contact with you and what kind of situation did these people find themselves in? Casey? - [Casey] No, no, I was just trying to think. The only good example I could think of was myself and I don't particularly want to talk about myself. My own situation. Well, I'm trying to think of what I usually tell someone who comes in and says, you know, "I'm majoring," okay, I will choose myself, I majored in English. So this person is majoring in English and you know you don't want to teach, so what are you going to do? And I generally, first of all, try and convince them that there are lots of things that they know how to do. There are lots of experiences that you go through that you learn just in getting a general education. You learn how to make decisions, you get more confidence in yourself, you just get a wide variety of experiences. And these you can, well, generally you just learn how to think. And so all of these things, you know, you can apply to a certain job, to different jobs. And also, I guess I'm concerned that a lot of students limit themselves. Instead of having other people limit them, they're limiting themselves saying, "I just, you know I majored in English and that's all I can do." But that's not true. You know, you can do lots of different things with just a BA degree. So I guess I try and support their thinking of the whole realm of different different ideas for careers and try and talk them out of the idea that just because you majored in English or psychology or whatever, that's all that, you know you can only do a related field because that's just not how it works, generally that isn't. Especially now with a lot of the traditional fields are already filled. So teaching and examples like that. So I try and first of all do that and then point out all the different kinds of information that we have in our Women's Resource and Career Planning Center that can help, and I'll probably go into that in more detail later. But did either of you have any better examples? - [Barbara] I can't think of any examples, but I want to follow up on what Casey said about the assumption that you might be only able to do a particular thing with a general, you know, degree. One of the finest articles I've read is in the Occupational Outlook Quarterly which is published by the US Department of Labor. And one of the main points is simply that the assumption that few jobs are open to persons with Bachelors of Arts degrees is really erroneous. And this particular article, which would certainly be worth looking for if you're in this situation, lists many different areas and fields from administration to advertising, art-related jobs, book publishing, banking, insurance, you know, some of these fields and talking about the fact that there are many positions in some of these areas for the liberal arts graduate. So this was an encouraging article to me. And I think one that would be worth exploring and getting to know other career fields. - [Casey] Maybe I'll just add at this point, anyway, we do have one full notebook in the Women's Resource and Planning Center which is titled, "Non-technical Entry Positions for College Graduates." And this lists and describes many of these careers that Barbara was talking about. And then we have lots of other resources to use too like the occupational outlook for college graduates which comes out once a year. - [Walter] Yes. - [Casey] And Occupational Outlook Quarterly and that's where this article is from, and we receive those. So if anyone wants to read the article that you were referring to, they could come up to our office and we could try and put them in touch with them. - [Walter] Another resource that I might add, as long as we're along that vein is a book that has a nice long title but it's very appropriate for the mature woman who is probably in the process of raising a family and decides that maybe this isn't everything for me, or I need the extra income or whatever motivates the particular person to be looking for a job. But if you're in that kind of a boat, you might look to our office where I know this is available over in continuing education also, "How to go to work when your husband is against it, your children aren't old enough and there's nothing you can do anyway." I think this book speaks very well to the person who has been out in the world for a while and kind of feels frustrated, looking for a job. Tell us how to analyze your capabilities and experiences and so forth and then what to do in the process of going to look for a job. And finally, half the book is just all sorts of ideas of what can I do if I don't know how to do anything? - [Barbara] I might add at this point, since we've talked about resources and many of these are written resources, just a comment that reflects my own feeling that using such resources is indeed valuable and helpful and this is just something I feel that is worth mentioning, these resources can be very useful during say the last year in school or whatever. But certainly you would want to be acquainted with them long before you are ready to go out job hunting. At least that's the way I look at it. - [Casey] Yeah, and especially in terms of trying to broaden your own ideas about what you are equipped to do with the college education. - [Barbara] Yes, because one of the points frequently made in the literature and I think I've noticed it in my experience is that one sometimes tends to postpone career planning and that this is sometimes the most, you know, frequently made error if there is one, for the general, you know, study student. - [Casey] I would say that's almost the rule. - [Gladys] Yes, because they come to liberal arts just before they graduate and say, "Where is my job?" Well, this is a bit difficult to do anything about it at that time. In fact, we have talked to perhaps starting this earlier, maybe say when they're sophomores, to have them become conscious of what they should be looking for and that sort of thing rather than just waiting until the 11th hour, before they graduate and say, "Here I am, I'm going to get my BA degree in human development and family life. What do I do now? What do you suggest?" And it does present problems but with most liberal arts people they have to learn to use their imagination and initiative and get out and look. And this is hard for them because they've been in school most of their lives and they don't know where to start and look, so they really need help. - [Walter] I think we can all agree that this should start nice and early. But I think tonight, we're talking to the person who does find themselves at the 11th hour. What can we do to help these people? Or what can they do to help themselves? How do you go about planning a career when the next day you're going to be hitting the pavements looking for the job? - [Casey] Well, I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is the college placement annual. That is a resource, it's a very large resource. Unless you know what company you're interested in it's kind of hard to, I know that you use them in your placements. It's kind of hard to go through how many, there's about 500 pages or so of companies, but it is very specific about who you write to and who they're seeking and things like that. So that's a valuable resource to at least know about. I was at a seminar two weeks ago, I guess it was on careers for women. And it was, I think it was particularly for women going back to work. And they, I thought she gave a very good outline of a way that you might go about doing it. And that was to sit down by yourself one night or whenever, and make out a list of all the people that you know that maybe would have some information about a job or have a job, things like that. Make out that list and then contact those people. And from them, if they don't have a job or even if you don't want to ask them for a job, ask them to suggest other people. And you make kind of a, I don't know how to describe it, one of these trees, so you have branches out from everyone. You can get a very large, I think it was called a radial diagram or something, of resources and people because the personal contact I think we could probably all agree, is by far important in trying to get a job. It's not the only way but it certainly seems to work a lot for most people. So that's, you know, one idea that she mentioned that I thought was really good was the radial job search through personal contacts. - [Walter] Okay, and where else can we turn beside the placement annual and personal contacts? Where else does one go? - [Gladys] That's about it, I would say. - [Barbara] Well, other than I think some of the commonly known things such as if you have a geographic location in mind, you might even, you know, subscribe to local newspapers for a period of time, even from other parts of the country. I know when we've advertised for, you know, Kansas City area positions, for example, we frequently find that people, you know, able to move have been in touch with the local newspaper there to find out what's being, you know. - [Walter] Or if you're interested in a particular area you can not only look at the newspapers but also get the Yellow Pages which would be available in the Chamber of Commerce or a local library would have Yellow Pages for another city. And that would list businesses, professional people, industries, and so forth that would be employing people. And also, I think if you just go to the Chamber of Commerce, not only telephone directories but they have other directories of companies in particular areas. The mature woman in particular is probably not thinking of relocating and just the local Yellow Pages and Chamber of Commerce are a couple of good sources. - [Casey] And for students also, the recruiters that come to campus. I know they're recruiting now down in Summerfield for those, I guess mostly business majors, people graduating in business. So that's another resource that we might mention. - [Gladys] There are a few people who come to the liberal arts. We used to have a great many people come from the government agencies but since the budgets have been cut badly... They are coming back some, but not like they did. And another thing about geographic that you were talking about, this placement annual does have a geographic area in it that a person may, if they say, "Well, I have to locate in California." The different cities in California are listed there and then the companies are listed under those cities in California. Now this doesn't mean the jobs are there but these are companies to which they may write and inquire. - [Casey] It's a first step, right. There are also, another idea is the, not, what do you call them, specialty journals, but I'm thinking of say the Chronicle of Higher Education lists jobs in higher education if you're graduating in education or higher education. And I'm sure that most, there are a lot of professional journals that might carry that kind of, you know, wanted ads or whatever it is. - [Barbara] Right, they do. And you're speaking about the federal system. It occurred to me that one thing I would do had I just graduated with a bachelor's degree would be to take the federal service entrance examination. And information about this, I believe, would be available in post offices and I'm sure you would know, Casey where to refer people. - [Casey] Right, well we have a number, a phone number here for, I think Walter found this. - [Walter] Right, the federal job information center. - [Casey] Yes, and that number is 1800-362-2693. And I guess that means a toll free. - [Walter] Right, that's a toll free number that you can of course call any place in the country and find out information about any kind of job that would be offered. Now, this is a federal government information, not local government. And that is another good source is the local governments and the state governments. - [Casey] Once again, I'll say that I'll have this number and a sample copy of the entrance exam and how you go about applying for that in the Dean of Women's Office in the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center for those that are interested in that. - [Gladys] This number is also on my bulletin board outside, it's a Wichita number. - [Walter] And also of course you can go to the post office as Barbara mentioned and they have lots of information about federal jobs. Another resource that I found very helpful has been the reference library and the local library particularly if you have access to the kind of library that University of Kansas has. There's a number of directories that list jobs and people and industries and so forth in particular areas. And the reference librarians have been particularly helpful to help people to the directories that are appropriate for whatever they think their job talents might be. Okay, we've located a way to get a job. Now, how do you go about doing that? - [Casey] Well, where do you want to start? You want to start with writing the first letter? - [Walter] Yeah, let's start with this poor person who is coming to us and saying, "I don't know what in the world I can do." And we've said, okay- - [Casey] And we already covered that part. - [Walter] Yeah right, we've located some possible ways to go as far as where to write and where to call and that sort of thing. - [Barbara] We can assume at this point that perhaps there's a list of potential applications to be made. - [Casey] I think that the resumes is a very important aspect of this whole discussion. That's, many times, that's the only thing, the first impression that you make is through your resume when you're sending out, you know, 300 resumes. And I think that, you know, one needs to be very careful to be sure and not limit themselves. Again, I'm talking about people limiting themselves, which I think people and women particularly tend to do. Mention, you know, president of the high school, whatever, you know, mention all those different things. It can't hurt, you know, and it might help. So I think that we need to really sit down and think back about all those different things that we did. Summer jobs and all that and include all those different things. We've got several sample resumes that I can think of about five or six different articles about how to write a resume up in our office too which would, anyone who's thinking about writing a resume should come up and look at that, I think, first. - [Walter] And I think we should underline not only for the college student, thinking of the kind of activities that they've been involved with in college and in high school, but also the mature woman who's been managing a family for a while has done a whole host of things that add to her maturity and ability to carry out a job. And I think that these are proper things to mention you know, in a resume also. - [Casey] Right, the volunteer work that could be applicable because you learn skills, so that's another step ladder to jobs. And this forum that I was at, again they mentioned that that volunteer work was important in a resume because it told, you know, it says that you learned certain skills. And that may even be a way for a mature woman or someone going back to work to begin. You know, if she can't find anything right away, then start in a volunteer basis and maybe work your way up in the same place or else learn skills through the volunteer work that you could apply to some other job. - [Walter] Okay, we have a list of places to contact and resume written. I assume the next thing is to write letters. Any do's or don'ts or anything at all there that we can add to this person's job hunting skills. - [Gladys] I would suggest that they enclose a stamped self-addressed envelope because quite often they will get responses that way. While if they just write a letter and don't make any overtures of getting a return letter, they will be ignored. - [Casey] I'd also, oh, excuse me. - [Walter] Go ahead. - [Casey] I'd also mention that I think it's important to have your phone number on your resume along with your address because in this fast-moving society that we live in, lots of times they want to just pick up the phone and, you know, and check with someone. So that's another thing to remember. - [Walter] Okay, let me ask a different kind of question. Perhaps we're thinking that if you're going to go out and do something, that you don't know how to do anything, perhaps we're thinking in terms of going out and finding a full-time job. But are there alternatives to, particularly I'm thinking of the mature woman, are there alternatives that she has beside going out and putting in a 40-hour a week job or whatever it is? - [Barbara] Yes, definitely. I think the extent to which part-time work is available varies from community to community and requires some creativity, you know, in finding such work. It is not as plentiful as I feel it really should be but I think it is increasing. I think partly because there's increasing interest in part-time work. But I definitely think that the opportunities are there. Again, it's a search process much in the same way that you have to really spend some time looking for full-time work. - [Casey] I think there's another new, I don't know how new it is, but a new concept is job sharing, which I don't know, Walter, I think you may have done some reading on that? - [Walter] Right, well, yes, a little bit. There's various kinds of job sharing. There's the time sharing, like I'll work in the morning and you work in the afternoon. Or there are shared locations. The job can be broken down between working some time in the office or any other person can be working with some aspects of the job at home. Or there can be a breakdown in the function of the job. Sometimes a company will have a job that perhaps involves three-quarters time of a professional kind of occupation and the rest of the job is just kind of a fill in, filing, cleaning out desks, I don't know what, well all sorts of things, things that wouldn't take a professional to do. And the companies are finding that they can break down a job between the professional functions of the job and then more or less non-professional, less technical kind of functions. So there is all kinds of part-time options that just doesn't mean that you're going to work half a day. There's other ways to go about this part-time sort of thing. Are there any advantages to part-time employment? Advantages, I'm thinking now to the employer. I assume that the advantage to the employee is that maybe they don't have enough time to go into a 40-hour week job, but how about the employer? Can we kind of sell this idea to him or her? - [Casey] I think it'd be really easy to sell the job because first of all, I think you always get more for your money when you have, say two part-time workers replacing one full-time because if you have two part-time workers, these workers have their other life, you know, where they can go and they have their hair done or whatever and do their shopping, you know, where they're not working. Whereas a full-time worker sometimes has to take that time you know, to go out shopping. You know, the stores don't stay open, at least in Lawrence they don't. So, you know, there has to be, there's some time that's wasted or not profitable for the employer when you just have one worker. I think there's probably a reduced turnover also using part-time workers. It's certainly a lot easier for illnesses and children being sick, and you know, there's not quite as much problem. - [Walter] Particularly if the woman has children that are old enough to maybe take care of themselves for three or four hours while you go to your part-time job. But maybe eight hours would be kind of a long time to leave this young child at home. - [Casey] Or if they're in school for half a day. - [Walter] Right. I really think that that increased productivity out of part-time workers should be emphasized. I know one particular study in Massachusetts with social workers, and the average caseload for a full-time employed caseworker was something like 100 week or 100 interviews a week or something, I don't remember what it was. But the part-time worker who was working half time, saw 89 clients as opposed to the 100 for the full-time. So really in the part-time work, I think there's a good deal of advantage to the employer as well as to the employee. - [Casey] Maybe a good idea for the person who's looking for part-time work to be able to use those arguments in those studies to convince, say an employer, that it would be to his or her benefit to have part-time help. So those ideas should, people should think about those before they go into looking for part-time work. - [Walter] Okay, it seems to me like there's one other aspect to the question that we've posed tonight, what can I do when I don't know what I can do anyway? And that is what are the good career opportunities. And kind of to whet your appetite in two weeks from tonight that'll be the, or three weeks from tonight rather, that will be the precise subject that we'll be discussing. What are the good career areas for women in 1973? Next week we'll be discussing personal, the attitudinal and psychological barriers that women present to themselves or other people present to women as they're out seeking jobs. And then two weeks from tonight, we'll talk about legislation, both federal and state legislation that affects the employment of women. Thank you for joining us tonight on Feminist Perspective.