- [Presenter] I had an opportunity to the feminist perspective. This series of radio broadcasts provide an opportunity for women to speak out on issues of concern to them and comment on how the women's movement is changing their lives and the lives of those around them. I am Janet Sears substituting for Dr. Emily Taylor, Dean of Women, who is attending commencement this evening. These programs are brought to you by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, located in the Dean of Women's office, 220 Strong Hall. We invite you to drop by at any time. We have a constantly expanding library on the women's movement, which is available for checkout. And in addition, we have many other resources which we believe are helpful to women. Last week, we did some role-playing of a job interview to kind of portray some problems that women seeking employment might have at this time. But we really ran out of time before we got a chance to talk about some of the other resources that might be available. If you are currently getting ready to plan your career, or seek employment. If you are in this dilemma at this time we invite you to come by our office. We have materials on how to prepare a resume, how to write a letter of application, how to find out what you need to know in an interview, and information on federal and state civil service exams and the intro requirements for these. So if you are currently seeking a job, or planning your career and would like some help, please do drop by the office at 220 Strong Hall. This evening we're going to talk about women in the church, how the feminist movement is affecting the church, and what are some of the problems women are encountering as they work within the structure of the church. Our guests this evening are Eleanor Burchill and Donna Shavlik. Eleanor and Donna have both being active in local churches, have taught Sunday school and worked with youth groups, and been active in women's work in the church. I'd like to invite you both to comment on what you think has been the place of women in the work of the church in the past.

- [Eleanor] Well, in a way, I think you can kind of relate to them from my own experience. You can kind of relate women's work with the society section of the newspaper in a way. You find reports of rummage sales, and dinners and suppers, bake sales, and things of this nature, which kind of speak to what I feel the women are thinking about in terms of the role that not only they have in the church, but perhaps what the church has to say to the world. And I would rather see some front page stuff coming.

- [Janet] Eleanor, you were interested, weren't you, at one time and maybe going into a career that would have been related to the church?

- [Eleanor] Yes. I attended Phillips University which is a church-related college in Enid, Oklahoma and went there to seek a degree in Christian education to work in the institutional church. At the time I was there, I decided that I would probably have a better opportunity to reach more people if I chose the broader field of education itself. And so I changed my major, but I continued and to participate heavily in the institutional church since then, and with my family, we have been involved.

- [Janet] Excuse me, just a minute. I'd like to introduce another panelist who has just joined us, Sister Mary Siefkin, from the Most Pure Heart of Mary School in Topeka. And we were just commenting on what has been the place of women in the church and in the work of the church. And perhaps you bring a really different perspective coming from the Catholic church. Do you have any comments on this?

- [Sister Mary] I suppose I do bring a different perspective because of, it is my whole life is involved with the church or my activities stem from my involvement of the church, out through community and through school. And of course we have a tradition in the background in the church for religious women that dates back centuries and centuries. Although I find it very, very interesting to hear what other people are doing in the church and their aspects and their particular denomination. I think we can work together to compliment the different works that we're doing. Basically. I think we see things perhaps a little differently than we might say, the men in the church do. And it might be interesting to hear your views on that, how you see your role as different than the men in our ministries.

- [Donna] Well, do you speak from a professional point of view? I mean, you are a profes- do you consider yourself a professional woman in the church?

- [Sister Mary] I consider myself a professional religious, yes.

- [Donna] Uh huh. Yeah. Well, this is, yeah. And that's, you know, that's a different perspective I suspect, from a lay, a lay woman's venture in the church as a, what is, what has been my experience. I think that the church has treated our professional you know, speaking of Protestant, where my experience lies, I think that in the Protestant churches, that the, the, the professional women have really been treated as second-class citizens of the church. You find that when the legislation was passed requiring equal pay for equal work between men and women the churches were among some of the most embarrassed positions because of the way they treated their women. And I think this is one of the things that the feminist movement has brought to the church. Is an opening up of this type of thing for our professional women.

- [Sister Mary] It seems to me that's something that we're seeing today that has been with us, you know, over these hundreds of years that women are obviously 50% of the church, but they have much to contribute and have contributed over the years. I've done a bit of reading and listening, and I would see this as many people do, but it's not a theological problem about women in the church, but it's become a cultural problem. It's a, a sociological problem of our culture. And of course, many of the Christian cultures back to the time of Christ, Christ dealt with this when women were, a bit inferior to men. And he wasn't, he didn't overcome this particular cultural problem of cultural bias. And I think we still have this with us. But today things are moving a little bit faster. And I think we'll see faster changes within perhaps within our time, hopefully within that time.

- [Eleanor] And don't you think that the cultural situation has dictated some of the theological situation now, in the church? I mean, I, as I view theology, I see a lot of maleness to it.

- [Sister Mary] Yes, I'm sure that culture has colored all of the theology that as it's been printed, or as it's been, you know, spoken. However, I don't think that the problem is basically theology. I think the theology says woman has an, shall we say an equal right? Or has as much to give, should be listened to in the church. That's not a theological problem.

- [Donna] A little bit ago. You mentioned something I'd like to talk about a little bit, You ask us a question and we didn't respond there, or gotten involved in some other things. And when you talked about the unique kinds of things that women could contribute to the church, and I felt like maybe you had some things in mind. Did you have something in mind?

- [Sister Mary] Not particularly, of course, I suppose maybe I'm in a little more unique role than you are. I just think that we as women have a unique gift to give. We're not, I don't feel inferior, but our gift is different, because we are women, and that's not only a gift to the church. I think it's a gift to mankind or to our dealings with one another. There's a feminine perspective that hasn't been delved into too deeply, in many, many, many aspects of our lives.

- [Donna] Do you think that the Catholic Church provides an avenue for the women to speak? I mean, maybe through the program and we call it the program of the nuns, or, I mean,

- [Sister Mary] I suppose it's been not to this point we haven't heard a great deal, no, but there's a great deal of awareness. Recently it's been latent, but it's being brought to the fore, and I think we're going to be hearing more. And as a consequence I think there will be more avenues open. I think we will, but I think that's certainly true of our, of the Catholic Church.

- [Donna] Well, I think about that, the Protestant religion and you think about women going into the seminary saying I'd like to be a minister. And the first thing I would think they probably are told is you know, a woman doesn't groove too well in the ministry. You probably won't get a job. Do you know, this is a, anyway, We have one woman Protestant minister of the state of Kansas now. And she's a woman who got into the job because her husband died. I mean, you know, I mean, it's very,

- Like Congress.

- [Donna] Yes, like Congress.

- [Janet] We were talking a minute ago that about theology, and how women have been portrayed in theology. In biblical history, there are two women who sort of stand out as the principle women in the Bible, Eve, who was sort of the fallen woman, the temptress, and then the Virgin Mary who is that sort of better than other women. What do you think that these two women, the portrayal of these two women has to say about the kind of expectations that the church has for women today?

- [Donna] Silence.

- [Donna] I think that the, one of the problems with Eve and then this may, you know, just, I tried this out of my husband last night and he says, Oh, I don't know about that. But I really have a feeling that the sexuality problem is something that's very difficult to get past when you're dealing with the church. I mean, a woman is viewed first and foremost, I believe, by her physical attractiveness. And the fact that she is, she is physically, you know, put together the way women are put together. And I think that this is a real hangup. I had a minister tell me just within the last few weeks that he was getting ready to do a series on the 10 commandments. And he, he, you know, done all the ones except the one on adultery, when he just couldn't get up nerve enough to share from the pulpit. And I think that, you know, that sexuality is something that is difficult to get past in the discussions of the church. Moral, morality has been a big thing, you know.

- [Donna] That was one of the things that I felt like maybe women could bring a perspective of, not because of their nature, necessarily, culturally, I think in his been somewhat more recognized by women especially maybe lately through the feminist movement and so forth the problem of sexuality and the need for sex education and the need for a church perspective on all of that. And several of the churches, I think have spoken quite well to at least looking at the issues that are involved here. And I think back to your question, Janet, on what does this say about the role of women in the church? I think in some denominations, I don't think it's true in all, in some denominations, I think it sets the whole tone that woman is blamed for the fall of man, and that's where original sin begins. And there's a very difficult pass between some realities in talking about men and women today and looking at past history. I think it's a very hard thing to get over for a lot of people, and most difficult for lots of denominations as they're coming together and looking at ecumenicism, and looking at some other problems that the denominations have raised for themselves such as equal roles for all kinds of people within the church body, that all of these things somehow are related, and make it difficult to make the necessary steps to open roles for everybody in the church.

- [Janet] Have the three of you had any personal experiences in the church where being a woman made you feel less than a whole person?

- [Donna] Less than a whole, I'm not sure that it'd be less than a whole person I had, at one time had thought about going into I guess, religious education, which was the role for Protestant women, at least, in the church. And I think felt very reluctant, and had no support from church members and church clergy to pursue that career as a woman. And I don't know what the little, whether the timidity on my part or the not offering any hands on the other part kept me from doing that. I don't know whether that detracted from my wholeness. But I certainly didn't feel welcomed with open arms into a ministry.

- [Eleanor] Within the last year, I was participating in a class discussion, a theological discussion and the, the man who was leading the discussion at a point where he obviously disagreed with me, quoted from the Bible where it tells about Paul speaking to the, the women in the church, telling them that they were to be silent in the church. And if they had any questions to ask their husbands when they got home. And he was serious.

- [Donna] So that you definitely felt related to at that time as a woman rather than as a person with ideas.

- [Eleanor] I find that difficult to get past when I bump into this fellow.

- [Sister Mary] I suppose he's quoting Paul in the you know, verbatim, taking a little translation which if we look again at Paul's time, this was the position of women in the church to go home and to listen to her husband. It was a cultural bias, which I feel that we've overcome in many, many ways. And I said, I think it's a very, in my life, perhaps it's a very recent thing where we can be listened to, where a woman has much to say, not only in the church, but that there isn't any reason why she shouldn't be listened to. There was a, was a woman who called Peter, in our, in the sense of, you know to come and see what was going on. And he listened. And it was a new life for him in that sense. So I think that we should be listened to. And I think that we are being listened to as women in the church, and women in the world, more and more today.

- [Janet] We're going to have to interrupt for just a moment for some weather information.

- [Male Radio Presenter] A cloud of controversy, a mouth with a speed of light, and a hearty hi-o public radio. The Collin Thing is on the air again with his faithful and sometimes interesting guest companions, our daring and resourceful masked moderator, Gary Shivers leads the fight for two-way radio across the middle of these United States. Nowhere in the pages of broadcast history, could one find our greater champion of open forum radio. Return with us now, to those golden days of yesteryear. When broadcasters cared about the opinions of their audience. From out of your radio, come a-thundering dialogues between you and our in-studio guests, noncommercial radio rides again! The Collin Thing at 10:30 Sunday nights on KANU and KFKU brought to you by yourselves, the people of Kansas.

- [Male Radio Presenter 2] We'll repeat that severe thunderstorm warning we heard earlier tonight, it was issued at 6:20 by the National Weather Service in Topeka. A severe thunderstorm warning is in effect until 7:30 tonight. For persons in the Kansas counties of Nemaha, Brown, Jackson, Western Atchison, Shawnee, Jefferson, Western Douglas, Northeast Lyon, Osage, and Western Franklin. A line of heavy and rapidly-moving thunderstorms was indicated by radar at six o'clock tonight from Western Nimaha, through Western Shawnee and into Northern Lyon counties. These thunderstorms are moving eastward at 40 miles per hour or more. High winds and large hail can be expected in some of the stronger thunderstorms. And let's see that covers, once again, Nimaha, Brown, Jackson, Western Atchison, Shawnee, Jefferson, Western Douglas, most important to us, Northeast Lyon, Osage, and Western Franklin counties. And if you haven't heard the word by now, the KU graduation ceremonies have been moved to Allen Fieldhouse. Let's return now to "Feminist Perspective."

- [Janet] We're glad to have you back. And we're talking with Eleanor Burchill, Donna Shavlik, and Sister Mary Siefkin on the women in the church. I think the church more than most institutions seems to have had an interest in maintaining the nuclear family structure. Do you feel that the church is a comfortable place for a single woman, or a divorced woman, or a woman of a minority race at this time?

- [Sister Mary] Well, speaking in a sense as a single woman, yes, it very obviously has a place for me, although I don't think of myself in many ways as a single woman, my dedication is a bit different. A divorced woman in the Catholic church does face a difficult situation. Although I think that is a more accepting role, or accepted role now, than it used to be. There's more understanding and more empathy to people in this situation. The, the formalities are still difficult and many people find this very difficult to bear psychologically. But for open-handed, acceptance by people. I think that's more understood today than it used to be, simply because it's more common in many ways, and that we are a more open society on that issue. And then you mentioned another point there, Janet.

- Of the minority.

- Of the minority. I don't feel like I have strong enough affiliations there to speak too clearly, except perhaps in the Chicano or the Mexican American women. And there, there is also a cultural problem in that situation, basically. Although I think they're, again, they're moving out and we're going to be hearing more from minority races. We are hearing more in, among women religious, among black sisters are speaking out and speaking on their own. And they have some very worthwhile things to say that we need to listen to also.

- [Donna] That makes it kind of exciting, to hear you say that. I hear you say that you're really excited to hear your black sisters speak out, and that they have something worthwhile to say, and you feel like you have something worthwhile to say, and I, I find that really exciting, and wish that I perceived as much movement going on in the Protestant denominations. I think it's very difficult for women, whether they're single or a minority to have a, a unique place or a special spot, or something really to contribute, or that is recognized as, as a contribution in the Protestant churches. I think they're working on it on an intellectual level, and maybe that's a good place to start, but on an emotional level, I feel like the two categories of people that you mentioned, Janet, are not well accepted, and nor are their problems met by the church at all. And I find that kind of a sad comment on an institution that that should be a uniting, in my opinion, at least, a uniting and, and a good influence in our society.

- [Janet] Do you have some ideas perhaps why you don't feel that these people are being heard or accepted?

- [Donna] Well, I, one idea, I don't know whether it's an accurate perception or not. My, my one idea is that since there's such a highly structured role definition for the minister himself, I think going from that role definition to the other roles that that causes within the church structure, that everyone is asked to play some specific role. And therefore the freedom it needs to exist for people to grow is in the church structure, maybe. Eleanor and I were talking about that a little before you came, do you have,

- [Eleanor] Well, I agree with that too. And then I also would like to add the fact that at the structure of the church as such, has, has been created to speak to the family, the nuclear family, and where you have a mother and a father and children, and you have different programs for them. The father goes here, and the mother goes here, and the children go here. And anybody who doesn't quite fit that pattern in our church creates some kind of a, a unique problem in the, in the planning structure. And I think that this is again, is where one of the feminist movement has spoken to the church in a very positive way, in that the few women leaders that we do have are beginning to break out of this, to de-segregate, to suggest that we realign some of our programs in terms of interest, and to get past the role of, you know, this being men's work, this being women's work. And I think this has been brought about by due interest in personhood, instead of sexuality.

- [Sister Mary] I see this as something that we could be discussing on two levels, like the particular parish level, where things may evolve around whatever is central in that particular parish, for instance, in our situation where there's a Catholic school, you could become involved in activities centered around your children because they're going to that particular school, or because they are getting particular Christian education. So you can, you could revolve around that, but the whole picture is much bigger than that. Even on a parish level, where there must be adult education, and it, it doesn't have to involve men or women, or married people versus single people, where it can be a broader thing, an umbrella to cover many. And of course, this is obviously true on the, the whole church level, or a broader aspect, a, a city level, let's say, where you have many parishes of the same denomination within a city. I see there are some neglected areas particularly with youth. I think this is something that has come to the forefront more frequently in recent, recent years even, in the last five years, we've seen a loss of youth, at least from formal religious practices or from coming frequently to services for us to coming to mass. I think there's been a big drop there. And I think that should say something to us. Something that we need to act upon. And may not say the things that we are hearing. I think we need to dialogue with the youth, with the the teenager in latter high school days, the college student, the post-college student. And I'm not saying that they've lost quote, "faith" or whatever we may be reading, may not be correct at all, but we do need to do some listening there and then some working on what can we be of benefit to these people? How can we better enable them to feel a part? Or, or what do they want of church? It may be more than religious services.

- [Eleanor] Yeah, I, you know, I think that the church could learn a great deal if they would, if, if we could sit back and look at ourselves and, and find out who is not there. And I think in doing that, you'd find that the single women and minority people, quite often, who are in closest proximity of the church building itself, are not there. The youth are not there. And then from that, I think we can discern some great things for the meaning of, you know, the role of the church in the contemporary society.

- [Sister Mary] It seems to me that that says something to us about the lack of youth in the church, about what they're expecting. And not only of the church, but of of us as adults, or, or let's say older adults, in the world today. That they're not looking for practice without, or a ritual, let's say, without some real practice behind it, they want to see what they really believe Christianity is put into practice before they will follow through on, on a ritual that will celebrate what Christianity is. And I think when they see us going out and doing what they think Christianity is all about, they're going to be much more a part of what they consider church to be.

- [Janet] We talked about some of the changes that are taking place in the church. What are some of the changes that you'd like to see that you don't see happening, especially how do you feel that the the women's movement can affect the church and what are some things you'd like to see happen?

- [Donna] Well, I think we're going to have to have more women in some leadership roles in the, in the churches. Our church is, our structure has elders and deacons. And I think that this is, we're going to have to have women who are willing to fight the battle to be in that place. And it does require a battle. Within these, the last few months, there have been some women nominated by some of their churches to be elders. And when you show up at the meeting, at the elders meeting, and you're the first woman elder in the history of that church, there's a lot of bitter feelings around men elders who have been involved in the church for years get up and walk out, and refuse to speak to you, or refuse to carry on business of the elders while you're there. I think you're going to have to have some very strong women to stand in there, and say well, you know, this, you know, I can continue to be who I am in the face of this, because I know, you know, that the the call of Jesus Christ in the world, and, and, and the love that he's asked us to share with one another is, goes beyond this sort of thing.

- [Sister Mary] It sounds to me like we need to do some educating of the men.

- [Eleanor] Yes.

- [Sister Mary] That'd be nice.

- [Eleanor] I actually, though, you know, really, I think we have to say that the women are going to have to be educated too, because I have a tendency to feel that women hold women back more than any other particular thing, you know? Well, it's just, it's just a fact, I'm sure, because a free woman in the face of a lot of women who are not free, who're steeped in tradition and and are set up, you know, guarding their little corner can be the most bitter opponent of, of an avant-garde woman, especially in the church.

- [Donna] I think that's true. One of the things that you, when you were talking sister, about dialogue makes me think of that as elders talking that maybe there are some times when we need to demonstrate in the church proper. And I don't even know in some of the new masses that have been put together if that'd be possible, or in the Catholic church, but it's certainly right now present in possible Protestant churches to utilize women more fully in the service, in dialogues. And then, even in doing, even going so far as to let them give a sermon, It'd be delightful, I'd love to hear it.

- [Eleanor] I've been fortunate in hearing some of my sisters give sermons, in parish churches, and here on the KU campus and very good sermons, on that score. We are have some very actively involved women, particularly in our own parish, liturgy-wise planning, preparing as a cantor, of course, organists, distributing communion, that sort of thing, that perhaps these rules haven't been set down for them, but they are taking them over. And perhaps don't it'll work back the other direction.

- [Janet] Well, we have many more things I'm sure that we would like to talk about and share with you but our time is about up for this evening. We thank you for listening, and I hope you will join us again next week for "The Feminist Perspective." Dean Taylor will be with us again, next Monday night at seven o'clock. Thank you for listening, And I want to thank Donna Shavlik, Eleanor Burchill and sister Mary Siefkin for being with us this evening.

- [Male Presenter] This has been "A Feminist Perspective," tune in again next week for another in this series of live programs. This is public radio, KANU Lawrence, the time is 7:30. The National Weather Service in Topeka issued at 7:20 PM this evening that the severe thunderstorm warning for the Kansas counties of Nimaha, Brown, Jackson, Western Atchison, Shawnee Jefferson, Western Douglas, Northeast Lyon, Jose,