- Welcome to "Feminist Perspective". Our format consists first of discussion by our guest panelists on a topic of interest and concern to women. And second, an opportunity during the last 15 minutes for listeners to participate by calling with comments or questions. Our number is 864-4530. This series is sponsored by the Dean of Women's Office which functions as a women's resource and planning center. We invite you to call our office at any time if you wish to discuss a matter of concern to you or if you wish further information. Better yet, come in person to talk or to use our constantly expanding women's library in 220 Strong Hall. As I announced last week, our topic tonight is "The Politics of Housework". And our guest panelists this evening are R.A. and Terry Edwards. As the announcer told you, this is supposed to be a forum for women to speak publicly on issues of concern to them. So it is somewhat of a departure from our format R.A., for us to include a man. Could you tell us a little about yourself? How long you been married?

- We've been married about a year and a half. And we came to Lawrence last summer. Before that I was in the Navy in Mayport, Florida, where I was an engineering officer on a destroyer.

- And what are you doing now?

- I'm in graduate school in business.

- And Terry, I take it you've been married the same length of time.

- Right, right.

- And have you, I get you at the present time of course, a member of our staff and the Dean of Women's Office, did you have some work experience before that time?

- I graduated from the university here in '67 and received my masters from Stanford in 1968 and worked for two years in management research for Pepsi-Cola.

- That's interesting our format tonight is going to be, at least start out, a little differently from what we usually do. We're going to start with a dialogue. A dialogue presumably between a man and a woman that might illustrate for our radio audience something of what's meant by "The Politics of Housework". So R.A., do you wanna issue any disclaimers before we begin?

- I think I'll pass until later.

- All right. Now, I don't think that's quite fair because R.A.'s been telling us all along that he doesn't wish anyone to believe that this is the way his marriage really is, that this the way he talks. I'd like to call your attention to the present issue. The March issue of Psychology Today which gives a report of the results of a questionnaire study that was done last year. In which readers were asked to respond to some 109 questions, I believe. At least there were 109 for women. They got an unusually large response biased, of course, in terms of people who read Psychology Today. But 20,000 responses is a very, very large number no matter how it's done. One of the things that they did was to divide some of the responses that they got into comparing them by types of marriage. And they mentioned three types. The traditional marriage, in which the wife is unemployed and is responsible for all domestic tasks and for childcare, the egalitarian marriage in which the wife works and both spouses share the housework and childcare equally and mixed in which the wife works but also takes responsibility for the housework and childcare. We may talk about these styles of marriage a little more later but I think you'll recognize the style that is being illustrated in this little dialogue. In the book, "Sisterhood is Powerful", there is an article by Pat Mainardi called "The Politics of Housework". And from this, we have extracted a number of very short dialogues, which we've put together. And we're going to start out by asking R.A. and Terry to take these parts. Read the parts just as they are in the article, "The Politics of Housework", understanding of course, that they didn't appear in quite this form in the book that is there are things in between it. Would you like to begin Terry?

- Okay. "There's lots to do today and the Nassan's are coming "for dinner. "Could you whip things around here into shape and clean "the kitchen?

- "I don't mind sharing the housework "but I don't do it very well. "We should each do the things we're best at.

- "Well, I think we ought to share some of the tasks "around here.

- "I don't mind sharing the work but you'll "have to show me how to do it.

- "We've got to get this place cleaned up "and I'm not doing it all myself.

- "I've got nothing against sharing the housework "but you can't make me do it on your schedule.

- "I don't feel as if I'm the one who should do all "the cleaning around here, after all you live here too.

- "We have different standards and why should I "have to work to your standards? "That's unfair.

- "My standards? "You're the one who comes into the house and says, "'This place sure is a mess.' "Or, 'Why don't you pick things up around here?' And, "When are you gonna clean up the bathroom?

- "Housework is even too trivial to talk about it. "Let's forget it.

- "Sure, you can forget it but I can't. "It's the wife who gets branded as being messy. "When people leave the house, they don't say, "'He sure is a messy housekeeper.' "They say, 'Boy, she sure doesn't keep their house "'very neat.'

- "This is getting ridiculous. "This problem of housework is not a man/woman problem.

- "If it isn't a man/woman problem, then what is it? "Any comments concerning the tidiness of the house proper "are always introduced by she. "Now, if you're talking about comments concerning "the yard work, sure. "They always say, 'He'. "That seems like a man/woman problem to me.

- "Man's accomplishments have always depended "on getting help from other people, mostly women. "What great man would have accomplished what he did "if he had to do his own housework? "Sure, in that sense, it's a man/woman problem.

- "Well, I don't wanna get into any political discussion "right now. "There's too much to do and we could expand on this topic "for the rest of the day.

- "Political? "Women's liberation isn't really a political movement.

- "Hey, you start cleaning the kitchen and I'll start in "the bedroom. "This way, we'll get the whole house clean in no time.

- "Hey, I just remembered there's a Kansas City Chiefs game "on this afternoon. "Would you make me some popcorn and get me a beer? "Think I'll watch a bit of the game til you get things "organized for me to start."

- Maybe you folks have missed your calling at the university theater. Where do you classify this marriage that you've just illustrated? Traditional, egalitariate or mixed?

- It seems to be the traditional aspect in which the wife does assume all of the house duties. Wouldn't say that-

- I certainly have to agree with you according to the tone of the male.

- We don't really know whether the woman's working or not. And according to the Psychology Today's vision. It could be a mixed marriage with the woman working but still expected to do all of the housework. Now, let's take it one by one and transpose this discussion into what's really meant in the verbal exchange between the two, rather than what's actually said. For example, the first exchange of words was...

- "Could you whip things around here into shape "and clean the kitchen?

- "I don't mind sharing the housework but I don't do it "very well, we should each do the things we're best at."

- And what the husband is saying is that unfortunately he's no good at boring things like washing dishes or cooking. What he does best is a little light carpentry, changing light bulbs, moving furniture. And how often do you really move furniture? Underlying it, is an even deeper meaning that he doesn't like the dull, stupid, boring jobs so his wife should do them. The second one was...

- "Well, I think we ought to share some of the tasks "around here.

- "I don't mind sharing the work but you'll "have to show me how to do it."

- What he's really saying is that he plans to need lots of help to do them. And he'll be so busy asking questions that it will turn out to be easier for the wife to go ahead and do it to start with. And then we have...

- "We've got to get this place cleaned up and I'm not "doing it all myself.

- "I've got nothing against sharing the housework "but you can't make me do it on your schedule."

- Meaning passive resistance. I'll do it when I darn well please, if at all. If his job is doing dishes, it's easier to do them once a week. If taking out the laundry, once a month. If washing the floors, once a year. If emptying the garbage, whenever a container in the house is overflowing. If she doesn't like it, she can do it herself more often and then he won't have to do it at all. By this time, the basis of the exchange is starting to reach home. So let's review what's being said at this point in the dialogue.

- "I don't feel as if I'm the one who should do all "the cleaning around here, after all you live here too.

- "But we have different standards and why should I "have to work to your standards? "That's not right.

- "My standards? "You're the one who comes in the house and says, "'This place sure is a mess. "Or, 'Why don't you pick things up around here?

- "Oh boy, housework is too trivial even to talk about."

- Women are the ones concerned about a messy home, not their husbands, usually. He knows that he won't get blamed if the house is messy or if the floors need scrubbing and it doesn't affect him. It's a woman's task and the woman gets the blame or the praise. When he mentions that housework is too trivial to talk about, he indicates it's even more trivial to do. His purpose in life is to deal with matters of significance, hers to deal with matters of insignificance, therefore she should do the house work. So along these lines the discussion continues.

- "Sure, you can forget it but I can't. "It's the wife who gets branded as being messy.

- "This is getting ridiculous. "This problem of housework is not a man/woman problem.

- "Well, if it isn't a man/woman problem, then what is it? "Any comments concerning the tidiness of the house "are always introduced by she. "Now that seems like a man/woman problem to me.

- "Man's accomplishments have always depended on getting "help from other people, mostly women. "What great man would have accomplished what he did "if he had to do his own house work? "Sure, in that sense, it's a man/woman type problem."

- Now what he's saying is that in a relationship between two people, one is going to have a stronger personality and dominate and that stronger personality had better be the husband, it's in the system. The white American male receives a benefit to the system and he doesn't wanna give 'em up. This is what's being questioned in today's society. This socialization process results in the male being the dominant person in any male/female relationship. It has become a political question as indicated by the following.

- "I don't want to get into any political discussion "right now. "There's too much to do and we could expand on this topic "all day.

- "Political? "Women's liberation isn't really a political movement."

- He doesn't see the women's movement as a political subject and is probably feeling that the whole movement is coming too close to home. He's only interested in how he is oppressed and that's not political. How typical would you both believe this kind of an interchange or these kinds of ideas to be?

- Among marriages today? I think it's probably fairly typical of many marriages. I think that among many of our friends that we have found that it is not extremely typical. Wouldn't you say?

- I'd say that's right, because I think basically most people that we know have a lot of pride in what they do and even the so-called trivial tasks which they say here, housework. I think it's just that although a lady is branded because her house looks messy, I still think it hurts the husband when they say it or it does look like it's in shambles. I think it reflects on both of them as a couple.

- When you were reading that, I was thinking of some of the people that I've known really through the years and you spoke of young people, I think I've known some really of several generations where the man was really considerably more neat than the woman. Sometimes he nagged her into keeping the house cleaned up and other times he did it himself so I suppose there's nothing that's totally typical of the society as a whole. But back to our Psychology Today article, most of the respondents to this survey of the 20,000 did divide household labor along traditional lines. 80% of the men and 85% of the women reported that the wife does most or all of the housework and childcare while the man does most of the heavy work. But it also indicated that a great many more men than women were satisfied with this arrangement. 62% of the men and 44 for percent of the women. Does that seem a natural kind of-

- I think so. I think that you know, to a certain extent a lot of the tasks that there are to do around the house are boring tasks and you know, any person would want to alleviate some of that boredom. And therefore it does seem that probably the male might be a little more satisfied with the current arrangement of the traditional marriage. Mainly because he isn't you know, that involved maybe, in doing those tasks. But yeah, at the same time, the differences in, it did fall down the percentage. And that maybe these 30% difference are seen that this maybe isn't the ideal relationship for him to just reap the benefits from it.

- And then too, you're talking about the traditional marriage. Now, since work outside the home has become almost a lifestyle of a majority. How about this, I thought they rather inappropriately it seems to me, called a mixed marriage. Where the woman has a full-time job and at the same time is expected to take the full responsibility for the housework. This introduces another picture, doesn't it?

- I think it does but basically, I don't know if that's really right. because I think that she's carrying her load in the financial support of your family and I think that you should do the same thing. I think you have to share and share like. It's a 50/50 relationship, it's not a 75/25 or 80/20.

- I'm sure glad you feel that way about it but I'm afraid that the respondents here indicated however that and other research studies have too, that a great many work, women. Either because of their own feelings that that's what they ought to do or because that's what's expected of them, are really doing two jobs. Both the work outside the home and taking almost full responsibility within it.

- Well, I think that's probably very true. Merely because the generation that is today in the 20s and 30s that is beginning to make this move towards more equalization in the marriage, the only picture they really had in their growing up was of the purely traditional type. Where the mother did assume all these responsibilities and never questioned them. And now in today's society they are questioning what they had always seen in their socialization process.

- What this implies also of course that man is not just doing nothing at all but that there are a set of household tasks that are appropriate for him. Such things as what would you say R.A., would be-

- Well I think the appropriate task would be more or less like taking care of your yard, raking it, planting it. Maybe working in some kind of a garden, cleaning your garage, moving the trash from the garage to the street, shoveling snow, starting the car in the morning. If you have car problems, taking care of those.

- My goodness, time he finishes- We should've brought along that list of the average family of how many beds there oughtta be made.

- Yeah right!

- And how many dishes to be washed and so forth. It is time to take questions or comments from listeners. We'd be very happy to have you call either to comment or to ask a question. The number is 864-4530. In the meantime we will, can go ahead with the discussion and interrupt at anytime anyone wishes to call. 864-4530. Another other interesting thing it seemed to me that came out of the Psychology Today survey was the fact that the more of the husbands helped with the housework and childcare the happier the women were. Both with the division of labor and with the marriage. And that for men it was just reversed. The less housework and childcare they did the happier they were. Any comment on that or is that surprising in any way?

- Well I don't think it's too surprising because the so-called tasks sometimes are kinda trivial. And when you haven't done 'em before and then when you're forced to do them for one reason or another, I think they are somewhat unpleasant.

- We have a call now. Would you come in please? Hello? Now, hello?

- Hello. I have a question that may not be directly related to this but I understood that at the beginning at least during fall semester last year, that if a man was a teaching assistant and therefore qualified for staff rights, his wife would also be qualified. But if a woman were a teaching assistant and qualified for staff rights, her husband wouldn't be. And I just wondered if that's still the case and how that came about.

- So far as I know the last I heard on this subject and of course there were many people concerned about this, that arrangements were made for the first semester and that the whole situation was being looked into and a legal opinion was being sought. I think that we certainly will need to check on exactly where that is at the present time and if you call our office why we'll tell you you know, where it's gotten to or you might want to bring up the question again so that the whole radio audience could receive the answer. That's as much as I know at the present time as to where that is.

- Okay, well thank you.

- Is there another question? 864-4530. Now you were, R.A. had just commented on this fact that the situation seemed to be just reversed as to what people were happiest with. You have any commentary, you didn't get chance to say that the women were happier the more they shared the housework and childcare and the men were happier the less they shared.

- Well to a certain extent. I think that it may be a little bit skewed percentage because I feel that as was mentioned earlier in what R.A. said was the fact that the man does take a certain amount of pride in the house. And when it's messy, he feels it just as much, maybe not quite as much, I still don't think as the woman does. And I think in this light that if he shared some of the tasks around the house such as some of the cleaning and so on, that he might feel a little more pride in the fact that he knew that he had contributed to that. I don't know if that really answered your question.

- Well I don't know that there is any answer. It would be a question of an interpretation of what these people who responded to the questionnaire meant. The list of the people who responded is definitely skewed in the direction of people who are younger, better educated, more affluent than the American public as a whole. But the percent of people regardless of what they actually said they thought off to be the percent of married respondents who divided the work 50/50, were 31%. Well no, we don't really have that figure. That's one of the problems with this report. They just pick out certain things to report on. Now, they have a table here for radical men and women, whatever that means. And reported that even among those who are presumably the most liberal politically that only 31% of the radical men and 45% of the radical feminists are reported dividing the housework 50/50. Another rather interesting thing was where do they put the equality in housekeeping, how they rated it in terms of eight different proposals. Which Psychology Today listed as proposals of the women's movement. You have that there. Where did they place equality in housekeeping?

- Well, the men place it about fifth on their list. And the areas that came ahead of it were such things as abortion on demand, which of course led in almost all of the areas as the first of importance. And equality in child rearing was second on the list, which is certainly a housekeeping type related job in a way. Public daycare facilities was third and equal rights amendment, fourth. Now, this is the way the men responded to the questionnaire.

- That's pretty much the way the women responded too, isn't it? They were fairly close to one another. They put equality in housekeeping, six out of eight but they put both the equality in child rearing and public daycare facilities much higher in the second and third. Do you suppose it could be that there's greater recognition for the woman who is working, of the fact that childcare, taking proper care of their children constitutes a greater problem than the housework.

- I think that probably, right now it does because of course that would be foremost in the situation. Whereas due to the fact that they are the children and they do need to be cared for and probably housekeeping would come second to the concerns in that area. That seems like a you know, fairly logical, as far as that's concerned.

- Really not much choice there. I suppose one could, I mean a couple could spend the evening arguing about it who's going to wash the dishes and they wouldn't get washed at all and no great harm would come of it. But of course the care of children can't be that casual. The new magazine Ms. that Gloria Steinem and others are now publishing, the first issue has just been published, also had an article called Housewives Moment of Truth in which they referred to various incidences and the kind of click of recognition that was coming to more and more people when certain kinds of things were said or done. This is maybe not very fair but I'm going to read you a couple of them, I know that neither one of you have seen these before, and ask you to comment on it. The first one is in Houston, Texas. "A friend of mine stood and watched her husband step over "a pile of toys on the stairs, put there to be carried up. "'Why can't you get this stuff put away?', he mumbled. "Click." What's the click mean there? Go ahead.

- Think.

- She recognizing something?

- I think that what she's recognizing is the fact that he's assuming that it's her job to pick up anything that is out of place around the house. And it gets to be where you are assuming certain things around the house and it's just assumed without really realizing what is going on til you get to a certain point. Which really is sort of like the point of no return to a certain extent. And all of a sudden you just realize it. And it is just sort of like a light bulb flashing up there.

- Do you think it, is any more typical R.A., of the men than it is of people in general?

- No, I don't. I think that a lot of it depends on what it is and who's it is. A lot of times with you know, if it's a child's I think a lot of times a male might go past it and you know, mention to his wife that she should pick it up. But I think also too that if it was a, say a piece of sports equipment and she made the same pass up the stairs, I think she might say the same thing.

- If the basketball were lying on the stairs?

- Yes.

- might get injured as kicked it downstairs. The second one was last summer, I got a letter from a man who wrote, "I do not agree with your last article "and I'm canceling my wife's subscription, click."

- I think it hit home. I really do. I think it's similar to what this last statement was in the dialogue where he says, "Women's liberation "isn't really a political movement." That maybe it's getting a little too close to home.

- In a way, I agree with it but on the other side too that I think it's that many times like when a man subscribes to a man's magazine for example, Playboy, that the wife, it'll never be Mr. and Mrs. it'll always be Mr. And when it comes in the house, it always goes to the man's side of his chair or the man's table for the man's reading.

- How do you think he'd feel about it if the wife wrote a letter to Playboy saying, "I'm canceling "my husband's subscription." Or do you suppose that ever happens?

- Well, I'm sure at the present time, it probably has happened, I think he probably would be a little upset.

- I wonder if they'd even even take it. How about this one? I mean, if they would cancel it under those circumstances. On Fire Island, "My weekend hostess and I had just finished "cooking breakfast, lunch and washing dishes for both. "A male guest came wandering into the kitchen just as "the last dish was being put away and said, "'How about something to eat?' "He sat down expectantly and started to read the paper, "click." What would've you said Terry, if that had happened? You understand the situation? They had just finished washing everything up and then a guest arrives and says, "How about some breakfast?"

- I think I'd feel like sending them out to the local restaurant.

- Upper half's telling him to go ahead and then-

- Right!

- when you finish. Our time is almost up. I'd like to make two or three announcements. One is that next Wednesday, both for a period of time in the morning and again in the afternoon, the Division of Continuing Education is sponsoring a program the union government career day. And there will be government officials here to explain opportunities in government. Also on Wednesday night, student vote is dealing with the topic of delegates to political conventions and the methods of choosing them. Since both major parties have indicated an interest in more female delegates, it might be very interesting to those of you who are interested in this process or perhaps even in being a delegate yourself, to attend this meeting. This weekend on Saturday, the fourth, the Women's Political Caucus is meeting at the Wichita State University to form a state division. Tomorrow is the deadline for reservations. If anyone is interested if they'd call our office, we can tell you or call in the reservations for you. The state division of the Women's Political Caucus can be set up provided both major parties are represented. Next Monday, our subject is women in history and our guest panelists will be Gretta Minsky and Beth Lindquist. Both of whom taught a course with this title last semester. Good evening. Thank you for listening.

- This has been a "Feminist Perspective." We hope you'll join us again next Monday.