- Good evening. This is Linda Jones, assistant Dean of women at the University of Kansas. Welcome to A Feminist Perspective. This weekly radio broadcast is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center. A program and information service of the Dean of women's office, 220 Strong Hall. Tonight's broadcast is women and credit. Part of a four-part series on women in the economic world. A Feminist Perspective provides a forum for women themselves, to speak publicly on issues of concern to them, and helps inform other women and men of the movement, which is remaking the shape and substance of women's and men's lives. The Women's Resource and Career Planning Center contains large amounts of information, news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, and books pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We would like to invite you to come in and browse or take advantage of the materials which can be borrowed. That's in 220 Strong Hall at the University of Kansas. Tonight, we have with us three participants, as well as myself, to talk about women and credit. We have Ms. Debbie Lickliter women's editor of the Lawrence Journal World. We have Ms. Dorothy Rooney vice-president of the Douglas County State Bank and Dr. Caryl Smith Associate Dean of women at KU. Debbie, would you like to tell us a little bit about your background? - Yes, Linda, I am a very recent graduate of the University of Missouri. I just graduated this past May and immediately came here to Lawrence where I've been working as the women's editor, as you said, of the Journal World. And I've just discovered so many things just in these past few months about women and about Lawrence it just makes my job very, very exciting. - Well, thank you. Would you like to tell us something about yourself, Ms. Rooney? - Yes, I joined the Douglas County State Bank when it opened for business in May in 1952, and I am in customer relations. Anything that the customer wants done, I do. It can be investments, loans, new accounts, any phase of the banking. - Okay, thank you, Caryl? Would you like to tell us what you do? - Hello, I'm the Associate Dean of Women at the University of Kansas and I deal with a lot of aspects of the administration of the office and coordinating with other departments and offices on the campus. I supervise some of the university resident's homes and the principal advisor of the commission on the staffs of women. - Thank you, and I also work in the Dean of Women's office as an assistant Dean and I work advising several different student groups, among them, KU Panhellenic Association, committee of The Commission on the Status of Women and the Quains organization which is a freshmen, sophomore women's honorary. Debbie, would you like to tell us something about the things that you found out about Laurence since you've been here? I understand that you've been doing some research in the area of women and credit. - Yes, I've, what I started to do was, early this summer, visit with different businesses in Lawrence and asked them about their credit policies, particularly towards women. The main thing I discovered, and I think this can be true of just about any place in the country, the persons in the stores are not aware of any discriminatory practices towards women. They, naturally it's good for business to have an open credit policy, and I think by and large, the businesses in Lawrence do try to have an open policy towards women. Now, this I'm sure breaks down sometimes, of one of the main problems that occurs up on the top levels of management, there is an open policy of giving credit to women just as it would be given to men. But sometimes that doesn't trickle down to the man who is actually giving the credit, or woman. I think this is something that happens with master charge Bank America cards, because you'll talk to one woman, who had no problem at all getting a Bank America card in her own name, and then the next woman will have written three or four letters, been denied a card, can't understand it. And when I talk to the officials in Kansas city, Missouri about yes, it was master charge card, they said, "Oh, sure, we'll give the card in any name that it's asked for." but yet, people have had trouble with it. And I think it's just that the top levels of management have one idea and just don't let the bottom levels know. And so then women think they're being discriminated against and in effect are being discriminated against, but it's not, it's not a conscious thing, I don't believe. And the businesses in Lawrence seem, you know, really upset that I would even question them about discrimination. They just don't think they're discriminating. - Well, why do you think it's important for women to try and establish credit in her own name? - Well, there, I think we all like to be individuals for one thing, and also there may be a time that she may need this credit in her own name. I'd like to go back to what Debbie said a while go. I wonder if sometimes, if credit is denied if they, if the loan officer, whoever, the credit manager, fails to explain the reason that it was denied, and if it is a woman that's just applying that she fails, it's because of her. I wonder sometimes if we don't make a mistake in really telling the person why their credit has been denied, it may be other reasons. Oftentimes you're right, it may be because of a woman but I think maybe we do a poor job of explaining the reason their credit has been denied. - It's my understanding that a few, if a loan is denied or any kind of credit, if you come back to the to the credit bureau, will they explain to you why the loan was denied? I got the idea when I talked to people at the credit bureau here, that that wasn't a policy that it wasn't their job to explain to people why their credit wasn't granted. And I think maybe that's something that's, you know, kind of a communication problem there. - We are required, if we deny a loan, to give the person the reason why their loan was denied. It may be the policy of the institution or it may be the credit report that was received. If it is a bad credit report, the individual has the right to go to the credit bureau and look at their files, and question them. Yes. - But it's the responsibility of the agency that was asked for the credit, to first inform the individual that their credit was not granted, and then the individual can follow up by going to the credit bureau to ascertain what information there might have resulted in this. - Right That's exactly right. - If someone needs this information, I think it's important for us to explain how they could come back or follow up on something that was unsatisfactory to them. - Then they can go back to the company that gave them a poor credit rating and find out, you know, why did you give me a poor credit rating? And of course, then the company can notify them if it was because of so many payments being late and this, but they do have a right. - Also at the credit bureau here, it's my understanding that all you have to do to have a separate file set up, if you're a woman, is to go in and say, "I want my file kept separate from my husband." Now, of course, any joint accounts will be in both files but you can, just by requesting it, have a file set up for yourself and that, at least the people at the credit bureau seem to think, that's a really good idea for women to do, to start establishing credit. For one thing, there's always the possibility of a divorce, or your husband dying and you're a widow without any credit on your own, and it's almost impossible to get credit at that point. - Well, what happens to a single woman who has been in the working world and has established credit in her name as a single person, and then she gets married? Is she able to maintain her own credit rating at that point? - Well, supposedly yes. At least that's what I've been told, that she would present the facts of her single credit, and those would be the things that would be on file in the credit bureau and the change of names shouldn't affect it, now I don't know, you know, if it does. - We certainly hear a lot of stories from people in terms of people we know, and university faculty, women, and other acquaintances within the community, who said this hasn't followed them. Now, whether or not they did not do it correctly, in terms of contacting the credit bureau to notify them of the change, so the name change could be straightened out file wise, maybe it was partly the fault of the individuals. Again, I think that this is maybe a real heart of the matter in that women, perhaps less than men or perhaps men also, perhaps we're not very smart about how we seek credit or how we seek to keep our credit ratings up or current whatever the case might be. - And sometimes I think too, people are lax on getting misunderstandings figured out. You know, for example, I get a bill and I have a late charge on it, and I know that I sent my check in and that it should have been received on time. And I see, oh, it's only 63 cents or it's only a dollar and it's just easier to pay it without writing, or calling, or attempting to find out, so that this will not harm my credit rating. And I think this is something that everyone should be encouraged to do if there is a mistake, not to just let it go on a record that way. - As a business person, I can tell you we certainly appreciate if there is any disagreement, to have you let us know, certainly, because there's always ways to follow through. - Oh yeah. It's just taking that little extra time to go ahead and do it. - Right. - Well, another area of credit that concerns women would be in trying to obtain a mortgage in purchasing a home or something, and I think there are a lot of questions about this that I could raise. Such as, what happens when a man and woman who are married attempt to get a loan, take out a mortgage so that they can purchase a house, how are their salaries, if they're both working or if one is working, how is this all taken into account? - I don't personally know, I don't handle real estate loans and I'm sorry I've had no experience with real estate loans. - Well there are a variety of things that apparently happen and some of them, again whether or not they're intentionally discriminatory, this is certainly not just restricted to the Lawrence area or the Kansas area, but there certainly are many indications that the savings and loan associations have been slow to want to take the woman's salary into full account such as if the same amount were made by her husband, in addition to his existing salary. And this is often very difficult for people to understand and it is hard to understand why this is the case. And I think it's a situation that will be changing but probably changing slowly as each individual association is faced with the fact that someone is questioning what they have done and the decisions that have been raised. I think that in this particular area of the state people are probably somewhat fortunate because there are major cities within the area. You are not very limited as to where you can apply without a lot of difficulty, someone in this area could apply for two agencies or banks within, you know 50 mile radius and apply to within two or three cities, and they might be more receptive in another locale and be just as willing to give you the mortgage, and hold your mortgage for you. So that there's no one answer. It certainly is the coming thing, that the woman's salary or income is being treated at face value. And we do hear very unfortunate things about, even in cases where it's the woman who is the primary income member of the family, income receiving member of the family and where, then they are somewhat penalized and have to take a mortgage at a higher interest rate. And, again, I think that these kinds of things will probably slowly diminish, but when that kind of situation happens you would hope that the men and women involved would try to get it straightened out with that particular lending agency or they would try to push for further answers or further explanations, and I don't know that there's any there's no path, way to do it. It's just slowly, it's going to have to be worked out. And also women, as a category of people, are going to have to prove their worth in terms of, in essence, they're going to have to prove that they can successfully handle mortgages. That's very unfortunate. You know, because women control a tremendous amount of the money of the country but that doesn't always come across that way, when someone in a store is trying to determine whether or not he wants to give credit to this woman or whether the city's loan officer's going to extend credit to this couple and count both salaries. - Although I think I've read and I know the people that I've talked to, agree that women are slightly better as far as keeping up on their credit, than men. And a lot of the retailers in this town, I know, will emphasize that point. The women don't default on their payments nearly as often as men. And so that I think is, you know, a plus for us. - Oh yes, is there any indication that that's a nationwide effect? That's fascinating. - I think you will find most of the women do the budgeting for the family and handle the checkbook. And I've found that if a woman says they can afford to budget that much for a loan payment, they will. And I think this is, I think we're becoming more and more aware of this. If she can take it out of her family budget and make the payment, so I think this will be true. - Good. Great. - I think something else that, in the past, there were laws which limited women's ability to buy certain property and this kind of thing. But so many of the States now have passed the Married Women's Property Acts, and so that women have just as free a position in the marketplace. I think as the banks realize that, you know, it seems to me it's going to be a good market for them, and they'll get to be a little freer about giving credit to women, I think. Since they're not likely to pass up a good, a good business venture. - Do any of you know anything or have you read anything about the bank started by women? - Yes. - Want to talk about that? - There's a bank in New York city that has been chartered by a group of women. Also, I understand that in California, a group of women have applied for a savings and loan charter. And as I understand, I don't believe they have a president for the bank yet, and I think it's to start in '74, which should be real exciting. - I would think so. - Now what are some of the implications that this might have for women in the area? - I understand that it, they are going to design their services for women only. - Oh, they are? - Oh, I see, this is a full service bank, but a full service bank for women. - So, wouldn't this be a little discriminating too? - Well there's certainly that potential. - But, I say, I'm not that well, acquainted with it. - That is a curious thing to me because when I was in Atlanta, there was a bank which was started, charted by, and all the officers were black, primarily men. And they ran across some discrimination suits in terms of white people not being able to get credit from their bank or whatever. And they had pickets and it was just really a horrible thing for them, you know, in terms of knowing what they were going to be able to do. And so I just wonder if this bank in New York City, is in for some of those same kinds of problems. - I may be, I would think they would, if they do this as I understood they were going to design their services for women, and so that may not mean that they're only going to have women customers, but I think the emphasis will be on women, because they realize that the women do control the pocketbook, so to speak. - Well I find it even more interesting, in this town, a new branch of one of the local banks is opening up and they have a picture of the people who are running the new bank. They're all women. And the manager of that bank will be a woman. And of course, in a more traditional role, the tellers of the bank are women. But it's really interesting to see this full page advertisement saying, "This is our new bank. This is who's running it." and you see all these female faces. I think that's just really good, and will give women a good image. Here we're involved in the top ranks of banking. I think, you know, this is a real positive thing. - Are there more women getting interested in business as a profession, I wonder, in terms of careers, and this certainly might help promote that. In terms of seeing-- - Oh, certainly. And women in banking in particular, not particular but, this is the area I know about. Women are being accepted and they are training and they're aware of the education that's required, and they're being able to fill all positions. Might kind of brag about our bank, we have six women officers and seven men officers, which I think is real good. - It's worth bragging about. - But there is, all the areas of banking now has accepted women, as I think a lot of the business places are doing too. - Well Debbie, have you come up with any other of kinds of things, in talking with people? Were you surprised with what you heard? Was Lawrence better than you expected? - Well, I think that, it's a matter of, it's the whole thing of going back to, "What is discrimination?". I think that there's a real openness to providing women with credit. And I think really it's just a matter of, I think something we mentioned before, communicating. When you think you're being discriminated against, going back to the organization that's doing it, and saying, "I wonder why this happened." And I really got a feeling of well we want to provide you the credit, we'll do anything you can, perhaps some of those people were trying to impress me. I had several people offer to open me accounts right there. And then I got the feeling that maybe they were just trying to prove how liberal their credit policies were. But I really do think that it's, it's a situation where women are just going to have to keep knocking on the doors and that they'll open up to them, if they just are persistent. That was just a feeling I got here, and I think it's probably a general feeling in a lot of other places too. - I'm concerned that we get a basic emphasis, this particular discussion, that it's very important for women, no matter what their personal situation is, that they do establish a credit base for themselves. And I think that there are a lot of women in a variety of circumstances who do not see that as a high priority item for themselves personally. And I'm not quite sure how we can emphasize that enough. - Well, the men at the the credit agencies that I talked to said, "Well my wife has credit in her own name, because I realize how important it will be when I'm not here, if I'm not here." And, you know, if those men realize it, I think it should be a good indication that it's an important thing. I know though, my own mother has no credit in her own name. It never entered her mind that she would need it. And she will probably. - I think it is a very difficult thing. Just saying it over the radio or even just saying it in person, isn't really going to have nearly the impact as when some woman discovers that she needs to make a major purchase or has a major emergency and finds that she can't get a loan because there's no basis for it. You know? And I'm not sure what we can really do. - What about the other end of the scale? Especially speaking to some of the young adult people who may be listening. Dorothy, what should we tell these people about beginning to establish credit when, not when they're several years along in their careers, but initially, how to get started? It's one of those things, well if I didn't ever have it before how are they going to let me start now? - It is difficult because many loans are made on past experience, and this goes for men as well as women. Anyone that hasn't had any credit experience, it is difficult. As important as paying a loan is, maintaining a good checking account, and many people fail to realize that if, they can be careless on their checking account and it's going to affect their credit when they apply for a loan. And so this is one of the important things and I recommend that they may need a co-signer in the very beginning to establish credit. But if they make the payments and payback it will be their credit that will be rated. And so oftentimes this is the way that people have to start out receiving credit is with a co-signer, plenty of security, a secured loan. And as long as they make their payments as agreed, then that will establish good credit for them. - Well, I know that right now on this campus, a lot of these students who are graduating seniors are being barraged with telephone calls about life insurance, and this is a whole other topic which we're going to cover two weeks from tonight. But this is probably one of the first times that they even think, you know, whether they take the call seriously or not, but they think about the fact that they are going to have to worry about their own finances and their own economic status. Maybe this will help them start thinking about it, for both men and women. - Yes, and I think there are many insurance companies that will make a loan for a college graduate until they start receiving a salary. Of course, the insurance agent or the company guarantees the loan. So this does start their credit and establishes some credit for them. - Well, I know when I was moving and I talked with my bank you know, about transferring accounts and everything and I was talking about moving expenses and what would be the best way to handle it. And the person I was talking to in the bank said, "Take out a loan." He said, "It's probably the first loan you will have ever had in your name, and you're going to have a salary and you can pay it back and that'll do real well for establishing your credit rating." So he made me think about it and I went ahead and did it, you know, rather than borrowing it from my parents or something like that. And I found that to be very, very helpful. - This is when it's helpful to have a good personal relationship with your banker, because oftentimes they will make the loan to an individual in a situation like that because you had maintained a good checking account and had been a good customer of the bank. - Is there any difference that we ought to tell people about, in terms of seeking credit? In terms of just how can we differentiate for people the differences in the lending agencies which they might approach? Now, this is not talking about for credit cards, but in terms of seeking a loan from a lending agency. There are savings and loan associations, there's state banks and federal banks. And if I missed some in terms of, and can we differentiate those in any way that might be helpful to these people? - Your savings and loans usually handle the mortgage loans, the mortgage on real estates. State and federal banks are, the only difference between them are the regulations. State banks are governed by the state board of banking and federal banks are federally regulated. As far as the loans, this would not make any difference whatsoever. There's also the small loan companies too, of course your higher risk, the higher rate. But certainly, and this is usually true of the loan companies, although they do, I'm sure, have some very fine loans there too. But the regular installment, short term borrowing issues lay down at the banks. - Thank you. I think that got, differentiation of directing people cause sometimes you don't really know where to turn. - No, I-- - Another thing would be credit unions. - Credit unions-- - If they're employed, in any kind of situation where they're eligible for membership in a credit union, that's often an inexpensive way to borrow. - I really don't know anything about that. - Says the banker. - However, I should state too, some banks, banks do make some real estate loans. They do not have an awful lot of money available for those type of loans but there are some real estate loans made in banks. - Well, tonight we've talked about women and credit and we've covered several different areas. We've talked about credit ratings and why they're important for women to establish in their own names. We've talked about some of the other things that go along with being discriminated against or when you think you're being discriminated against and what is it exactly that you can do? You know, and that you shouldn't let extra charges or misunderstandings in billings affect your credit rating. You should do something to straighten them out. We've touched on a little bit about mortgages and shopping around trying to get various rates and being sure that if there's more than one salary available, that both salaries be, at least taken into account, in some way. I think one of the main themes that has come out from our discussion is that a large part of the responsibility in obtaining credit for women, rests upon the women themselves. So they must take the initiative and they must request services and request those things which they feel that they need and deserve and be a little bit persistent with it, if necessary. Ask questions, check into why they didn't get the credit or why the limit was not set as high as they expected or whatever the case may be. Does anyone have any final closing sentiment? - Well we just encourage people to carefully look at and assess and evaluate their own situations. And if you haven't already, do try to establish credit for yourself as an individual. - Okay. I'd like to thank each of you for participating in our program tonight, and to remind the listening audience that this is one in a series of shows on women in the economic world. On November the 19th, we will be discussing women and social security, and on November the 26th, we will be talking about women and insurance programs. Thank you for being with us tonight for A Feminist Perspective. Good evening.