- Good evening, and thank you for joining us for A Feminist Perspective. This weekly radio broadcast is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, a program and information service of the Dean of women's office 220, Strong Hall. Located in the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center is a large lending resource service that contains a great deal of information in the form of news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, and books pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We should like to invite you to come in and browse or take advantage of the lending service. That's in 220 Strong Hall at the University of Kansas the materials and the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center are as valuable for men as for women since sex role definitions and stereotypes affect both sexes. We invite you also to come to this office if there are matters, you wish to discuss with someone. Whatever concerns you as women or about women is of concern to us also. Our topic tonight is husbands and wives who live apart for professional reasons. And our guests this evening are Dr. Bobby Patton, Bill Robinson, Nancy Bleezy and Jan Sanders. And you guests tonight, have I believe one thing in common, that you are our plan to live apart from your spouses for professional reasons. I'd like to ask you first, how did you and your spouse make the decision to live apart for these reasons? Whose idea was it originally, and how long did you consider it before finally deciding? And could we sort of go around the table on this one? You want to start, Jan? - All right, I think that this type of separation began for me in August of 1971 when I came to the University of Kansas to start work on a PhD. Prior to that I'd been married for four and a half years. And for me, the prime reason was educational. I'd been living in Washington DC and completed a master's degree. And there was no PhD program for me there. I had wanted to be a career person for a lot longer than I wanted to be a wife. And I was very disappointed that I couldn't fulfill my expectations. And so I looked around for the very best program and it was KU. My husband was quite aware that I'd been unhappy in DC, and he said, if I'm going to be happy, you're going to have to be happy too, so that's do this. - How long did you consider it before you finally decided? - Oh, about, well, considering to do it took about two months. I think all along, we knew this would be the right thing for us to do, but it was hard to get up the courage. And we finally decided we would do it, and at that point it came where, where would I go? And that decision took another three months. - Now, how about one of the men. Bill, how about you? Whose idea was this originally and how long did you consider it? - I suspect the idea originally was Jean's. She, for the past four years, has been an instructor in the Department of Foreign Languages at the University of Missouri in Kansas City. And through that office was aware daily of the mailings that came in related to various opportunities for study and travel abroad. And all of these things appeal to her very much. During her undergraduate career she spent a total, I think, of 13 months in France on two different occasions. And about mid September of last year, I think, although now I really can't remember when it all started, it seems as though we've been living with this always. I don't remember that it had a specific starting point. She received information that said applications were soon due for Fulbright Hays grants for the coming year. And in reality, I think it was kind of a Lark that she decided to apply, kind of a ho-ho let's see how far I get in the competition. But we had talked about what it would mean if she got the award, that it would likely be an award that would be something she'd definitely want to accept. And for a while we talked about both of us going. And the more we talked, the more that proved to be a pipe dream. The longer she stayed in the competition and passed each successive hurdle, the more a pipe dream it became for me to be able to go with her. The necessity of my staying here seemed to become more real. And the likelihood of her going to France became more real simultaneously. We've just kind of geared our lives around this particular set of choices. But I don't recall that, you know, any one day or any one hour ever became the time when we said, aha, this is the decision that we've reached. It just happened. It became a part of our lives and has evolved as such. - If you'd known for instance, the night that you first discussed the Fulbright competition that instead of that it was possibility to apply, that someone had called and said, you've won a competition, or you've won a trip to Paris for a year, what do you think your reaction would have been? - Oh what combination of surprise and elation and an apprehension and fear, which is my reaction you know, even now. - Do you think you still would have done it that way? - I think so. I think analogous to your question is what would I have done if Uncle Sam had called me and said, surprise you won a free world tour, courtesy of the US Army, and I would've gone so. - Okay, how about you, Nancy? - Well, our decision was really, it came to be in an inevitability. In 1969-70, my husband was looking for a job and I was between degrees, having just finished up with a master's degree and wanting to go on for a PhD. And so at that point, we started looking around hoping to find a place where he could teach and a program in which I could study within reasonable distance of each other. What we came up with was a compromise, which was that he started to teach at Emporio Teachers' College, and I decided to go on here. And this means that our separation was not complete because we were able to be together on weekends because the distance is relatively short. And that didn't work out too badly. And I guess it was really not a decision taken at any one time, sort of like Bill's decision, it grew like topsy. And for a while, we did not live apart even all week, I went back in the middle of the week. And then it got to be that got to be too much of a pain, so I decided that I would stay here all week and I took an apartment in Lawrence permanently and it evolved that way. And now we have just ended in the last month of this business of living apart, we hope for a while, but we don't know for sure. - Okay, Bobby. - Well, my wife and I never figured that we'd be living apart. We'd been married, we have been married for 15 years, but we knew all along we were both professional people and that our professional priorities were high with both of us. And we made several moves and they were always with both of our jobs in mind as we made these moves. But one thing led to another here in Lawrence. and with the recent cutbacks in federal programming at Haskell Junior College where my wife was teaching, it became apparent within the last year that there would not be continuing employment opportunities here for her. So over just a period of enlightenment, we finally decided that it was necessary that she started to look for jobs elsewhere. And it was, I think, mutually arrived at rather soon when we saw that the handwriting was on the wall. - There's a one thing, another thing that all of you folks have in common in addition to one I previously mentioned, and that's a general and in one form or another in the general field of education. This is true of all your spouses too, is it not? - Yes. - Do you think that there's anything that's peculiar about the problem in relationship to the type of occupation? Do you know anyone in other occupations who have made similar decisions? - Well, I think it's a recent phenomena in terms of the changing job market, in terms of supply and demand. It hasn't been too many years ago when teachers were in demand. So husband and wife teams could both settle where they wanted to settle and were in great demand. Within the last five years, we've seen the switchover where that now jobs are in short supply and so the people have to go where the jobs are. So I think this is a growing phenomenon. - Well, conversely though, I think that educational institutions have, in a way fostered this by having until recently, I think most educational institutions, institutions of higher education anyway, had anti-nepotism rules which prevented only, not only relationships such as not teaching under, if your spouse was chairman of the department, but prevented two people in the same family from teaching in the same department at all, whether they ruled each other or not. I think that that is slowly changing. But I think that that may be a factor which has led to other academic couples living apart. - Or even if they weren't both teachers, the nepotism rules applied in many places to people other than the professional staff. You know, you couldn't even be a maid and a janitor in the same institution in some cases. - Now I'm familiar with another professional couple. The man is a banker and his wife I believe was in a nursing supervisor, and she decided she wanted to complete her education and get another degree. And so she took a leave of absence from the family situation and came back to school. Again it was in an educational context. I think that that is a very socially acceptable reason. If you must be apart from your spouse, at least you're improving yourself educationally. But they were outside of the educational context otherwise. - What you said makes me want to ask, do you feel that a necessity to explain this to people? You say, you talk about a socially acceptable reason that, do any of you feel you have to do that, or feel that you want-- - There are different classes of people, for me, the first one that I had to explain it too were my parents. And that that took quite a while because husbands and wives live together. And to explain to them that no, our marriage was not on the rocks, but this was a positive decision that we had made was rather difficult. And then there are all kinds of friendships that we built up that needed to be explained. And then every now and then I still get in a situation where someone will ask me out to dinner. And I say, gee, that sounds like a good idea, but I think I should tell you that I'm married. Somehow these kinds of, these things do creep up and it's necessary to explain. - How about the rest of you? - I found an amazing amount of understanding of our situation, including it seems like everyone that matters seems to understand. If they knew us, they seem to understand the situation we were in and it got approval consistently. I think that, that the problem has been with people who don't know and the misinterpretation of reasons that might be inferred. There was an article last week about the fact that my wife had taken the job in Maryland. And I received one letter from someone I'm sure is not listening tonight, but it was actually a letter to my wife, to Bonnie, and reading over the letter, the inferences were made. - You opened her mail? - Oh yes, yes. I have to see what needs to be forwarded on and what needs immediate responses. But the questions were such things as who was going to do the housework for me, who was going to do the cooking for me, who was going to take care of me in these ways. These seemed to be all of the wrong questions that should be raised about a relationship. They're not questions that would be raised if I were a single person. They're assumptions that are made that because I have been married than I am no longer able to be self-sufficient. In fact, it raised the question, since Emily Taylor's name was mentioned in the article, was Emily going to do my housework and cooking for me. We told her that she would. Unfortunately it was not signed. It was an anonymous letter. But these are the sorts of concerns that people have, and I think that the wrong concerns of who's going to do these things such as keeping house, and these things which are quite minor as far as the relationship goes. - If the letter had been signed, would you have answered it? - Oh, yes, yes. - What were you said in response to it, that kind of concern? - Well, I think it was a genuine, a person who had some concern obviously to take the time to write a letter of that sort. And I think I would have explained that our relationship was such that we went into this, in terms of growth for both of us. We felt that we would both be better people because of this particular situation. And that I am able to, as far as the little details, of doing the laundry, cooking and these sorts of things, able to take care of myself, as is Bonnie. So it's the matter of being apart that is the hard part, not just the chores that are really insignificant as far as your relationship goes. But I would have tried to take time to explain that to the person. - I don't think I would have. For some reason I've enjoyed, from time to time, I've enjoyed people saying, you know, my word, what are you going to do, or something like that. And what I have enjoyed is not responding, but just letting them come up with whatever they will or assume whatever they will and leave. I figured that if they are people that I'll see again, that I'll see again in the year that Jean is gone and they'll have to deal with the reality of my situation at that time. And if they're not people that I'm going to see again, that's hard with the time to change their theology or their attitude about marriage. So I've had fun with some people's reactions. - Well, I think that I have found, and I don't know whether it's because I have become less self-conscious about it or whether people have become more understanding or it has become more usual or both, but I have found that since 1970, I've had to do far less explaining than I had ever had to do, than I had to do when we first started out with this arrangement and I sort of felt like a real weirdo. And since, I have found other people who were in the same situation, and I think people have also come to accept this as a little more normal. - And does your husband know run into pretty much the same sort of thing where he is? In terms of people's response to this marriage arrangement? - Oh, I think to a certain extent. The people in Emporia are kind of conservative in such matters. And I think that there are some people who did not understand why in the world anybody would want to do that. But I don't think he's run into any really odious situations as far as he's told me anyway. - And do you find necessary to do much explaining, Jan? Or does anyone ask you for explanation? - Yes, because it it still seems to be-- - You mentioned your family. - Yes, they were the first ones, although now they accept it and they're very proud of it and they think it's an excellent thing for us to do. But I find in new acquaintances that I make here in Lawrence sometimes because my husband is not a visible presence, people did not even realize that I am married. When they find out that I'm married, I consider myself to be married, then the next thing is, well what in the world are you doing? And at that point I feel called on for an explanation, but I happen to be proud of the arrangement and proud of our decision too. - So you don't feel defensive in the slightest about it? - No. - Now, I don't know that anybody that answered my question as to whether or not this, I hate to call it a phenomenon, a growing phenomenon, we didn't have any difficulty in finding four people to invite tonight. In fact, we invited you four from a number of others in the same general kind of situation, but do you know people outside the field of education? You mentioned the banker, but he's worried is going back to school. We all know of course of cases where someone is ill or a terminal illness and the the wife goes back to complete her education in anticipation of what's going to come. But as a strictly a professional response to make it possible for two people to carry out their own careers, which they're unable to do to the satisfaction of each in the same location, is this more peculiar to people connected with colleges and universities than to others or do you really know? - I don't know, personally people outside higher education who are involved in this kind of a situation. I know of I counts of many people outside higher education, although I'm thinking of accounts that told of people whose careers I would categorize generally as being in finance, who have undertaken such an arrangement out of a feeling of necessity. I get the feeling that you may be leading up to wanting to know if locale, peer group education, background and experience has something to do with an ability to tolerate this kind of situation. - What kinds of people can and for what kinds of people is it desirable? - This past week after the newspaper articles written, a woman who is a secretary here on campus came to me and said she was very pleased to read about this because she had just recently come to Lawrence and her husband is still in a small rural farm area. And he is a professional truck driver and she was not finding employment in the area. And so is working here at the University of Kansas as a secretary and was very pleased with the arrangement. They're still able to get together occasionally on weekends, that sort of thing. So I think it is going beyond just the academic community, but I think our acquaintances are rather limited to that area. - I think also that in the area of public life, it's been a practice for quite a while. Of course, in the entertainment industry, people giving concerts or film stars, you frequently that they have this sort of living arrangement, but also in politics. I'm familiar with some congressmen in my district who commute back and forth because their families do not make the move to Washington. I would say that often it's because the the families and the children are established. But I do know a women who have very satisfying professions in Indianapolis and remain there while there Congressman husbands live in Washington. - And of course someone mentioned the military, and perhaps a little different context. So this is really a new phenomenon or in what sense, Bobby, do you think it's new, you, I believe were the one who said that. - I think it's new in that the parties involved are making a conscious choice to be apart. Before it's been a matter of circumstances that have demanded it. The military says you have to go on and be gone or perhaps the nature of being elected to office required a person to be away from home. But now there seems to be a conscious choice that we're mutually agreeing to be apart for professional reasons. - I think another very basic difference is that now it's the woman that is leaving the house and home. I think in our situation, all four cases here it is the wife who is leaving. And I think that's what makes it very unique because in the past, the truck driver husbands have been gone, military husbands have been gone, and this is just something to be tolerated, but it's still normal. - I was wondering, is Christopher Columbus was married? Cause you said a conscience choice. - Frequently. - You know, I presume nobody made him set out to discover a new route. Similarly with the other people. - I suppose the choice by both parties involved, then, that might be the key. - I think that really it's new in another sense, and that is that in some cases, this is perceived as not being a temporary kind of thing. My husband and I have recently become reconciled to the fact that it may be a very, very long time before we were able to constantly live in the same household and still maintain jobs will be of the best interest for both of us, simply because it's very rare that two very good jobs in the same field, which we are in the same field, exist on the same campus. Usually there's one and only one. And that makes it rather hard unless you wanna share a job. - There's fortunately for a lot of people, there are some locations that have more than one kind of institution of the same sort, you know, one college or one university where it's possible for people, one to be teaching in one place and one into another. In fact, that's, I think is really a rather common. And kind of nice arrangement to the extent that it's possible for people to get jobs. - But in a lot of those cases that I know of, the people have to make the choice, and that is that there's one good job in one rather mediocre job available. And in that case, which one's going to take the mediocre job and which ones are they going to move every five years so that the one who had mediocre job can have a good job for awhile. In other words, what I'm saying is not that two people can't find jobs in the same locale, but that two people can't find top notch jobs in the same locale very often. And I know that that's not the case in some instances, I know plenty of examples where that is not the case, but you have to get a reputation and things like that before you get into those kinds of situations, and it takes a while to work up to that. - The idea of shifting back and forth over a period of years is probably amicable to genuine advancement though, of a career, wouldn't you think? - Yes, I would think so. - When you were considering your decision, what did you see as the major drawbacks and once you were separated, those who've already experiences this, did you find these drawbacks to be realistic or was it as you expected or was it worse or better than you expected? Could you comment on that? I guess you two really have already been the ones to experience it? - Yeah, well, I anticipated two major drawbacks, and one of them we've already discussed, what will people say and what will they think about us? And then the other one was the loneliness. I recognized that I had never been on my own, responsible for myself, living by myself ever before. And there was some of the fear, can I do it? And also I'm thinking about being very, very lonely, having been used to having someone I loved around. And the loneliness is true. I did experience that and I still do. I find ways to cope with it. But missing my husband is very real. I found that what will people say came to concern me less than this. - How about you, Nancy? - I think that the factor of loneliness was the one that I considered to be the most important drawback. And I learned to cope with that to a certain extent, but in certain instances we had to have longer than one week separations. And at those points, it was kind of hard for me to deal with the loneliness. I didn't really worry too much about other drawbacks except that there was a lot of commuting to be done. And it happened to be myself who did it because the living arrangements were a little better in Emporia, there was nicer house and it was a little more comfortable for two people to be in, so I got kind of tired of driving. - How long were you married before the separation took place? - We were married for two years. - Two years, what about you, Jan? - Four and a half. - And let's seem how long you been married then? - Jean and I were married six years yesterday. - Six years, and you said 15? - Yes. - Is there a difference, you think, among couples married different length of time in terms of their toleration for this kind of marriage? You think you would have made the same decision, for instance, Bobby, you've been married the longest, would you have made the same decision say 10 years ago if the same situation had arisen? - I don't think so, but that's because we were different people 10 years ago. And I think the environment, the culture was quite a bit different then. I don't think we would've considered it. - I'm quite sure that the same decision would have been made, say five years ago in my case. But I think it would have been significantly more difficult, and perhaps the impact of the difficulty more long lasting than I feel has been the case now. - How do you account for that? - Well, at times I think that the immediacy of togetherness, which is the concept that I'm not sure I can explain. It's just that I remember when we first were married, it seemed as though one of the most important things in the world was to spend every minute possible together. And the more we were together, the more we found that qualitatively, we were looking for our relationship, rather than quantitatively. And so the immediacy of spending all of that time together became less important. - We'll pause now for a moment for station identification. - Since the end of the spring semester with the University of Kansas K-- - To know what goes on in government is becoming increasingly important to the citizens of this country. This is true at the local, as well as the state and national governing bodies. Government, as it is structured in the United States is designed to represent its citizens. Of late, the faith of public has placed in its government on all levels has been shaken. Now more people want access to and communication with their government. The community needs staff of KANU tries to keep you informed about our local governing bodies and issues they are exploring on the weekly report city limits. The staff also follows many other activities, both related and unrelated to city government. If you cannot attend city commission meetings or any of the other civic activities that keep Lawrence functioning, then listen to City Limits. An informed citizenry reflects an active community. Stay informed by listening for City Limits, Friday evenings at seven on the public radio service, KANU Lawrence - Just before I stationed break Bill Robinson was discussing the question of would he have made the same decision earlier in his marriage, the decision to live apart, separately, our topic tonight, as you know, is husbands and wives who live apart for professional reasons. And I think we interrupted Bill, sort of in the middle of a sentence there as he was, you were saying, Bill, I believe that you probably would have made the same decision, but for different reasons. - Well maybe for the same reasons, but with a great deal more difficulty. I think what we really interrupted was my feeling of vulnerability because for some reason, my answer to that question left me feeling far more vulnerable than my answer earlier in the program. But one of the very real things that I feel comfortable with now that could not have been as present anyway if present at all five years ago is a feeling that whatever Jean and I are able to do together as a couple is not the sole sum and substance of our existence, nor is it the sole sum and substance of our relationship. And that's been something that I've had to learn. I think I've had to learn it more than she's had to learn it. But in many respects, we've been able to learn together that what we are individually makes a great contribution to what we are together. And a failure or a deletion in the one aspect leads to a failure or a deletion or at least the potential for that in the relationship together. And a belief in that has made it for me much more, even necessary, that this decision be made under the circumstances that we were faced with a year ago. - That's well said. - Thank you - Our number here is 864-4530. We would welcome your questions or your comments. Now you spoke of being made to feel vulnerable. And while we're waiting for any possible question or comment that someone radio audience might have, let me ask you one that I'm sure is in the minds of some of the people in our radio audience. By making this choice to live apart for professional reasons do you feel you put a lower priority on your marriage than on your careers or your finances? - I think Bill made a good answer to that I just moment ago. No, I think it's more a matter of by each partner in the marriage more fully realizing their potential that they're contributing to the marriage and to the relationship. And any other alternative would really would diminish one or the other party in the relationship, and thereby diminished the marriage. So I think it's a matter of more fully appreciating each other. - I think in our case that really, it may have been to some advantage for our marriage because and that it really was not a change in priorities, but a change with regard to what aspects of the marriage versus the careers were going to be emphasized. And I think that in some sense, we may enjoy our relationship more when we are together because we are apart enough that we don't get in each other's hair all the time and because both of us are happy in what we're doing. And I think as Dr. Patton said, that that's one of the most important parts of the marriage, is that you'd be aware that both parties are happy in what they are doing. And if they're not, then there may be exterior reasons for a breakup of the marriage due to discontent on the apart from one or both parties. - Let me put that in specific personal terms. From a number of standpoints we could say, and I will say, that my wife at this point has a better job than I did in terms of monetary rewards, in terms of responsibilities and so forth. And in terms of virtually all dimensions, we might say. I suppose I could have, or, well not suppose, I could have gone along and been, should we say, say a house husband if I had wanted to relinquish my professional life. I wasn't able to do this. And I don't think I could ask the same of her, that she should relinquish her professional wellbeing in order to be "housewife" to me. - And I'm sure that that was not a proposal that she made to you either. - No, no, no, she appreciated my professional well-being as I appreciate hers. - I'm sitting here and really appreciating the things that you're saying about growing as individuals, and how two individuals grow and make a better relationship. And remembering something that my husband and I have learned from this. We've learned that also, but we also have learned about the relationship itself. I'd like to share something from a silent partner. This is a letter I received for my husband last year. Dear one, I just got done watching the end of an unusual movie called Sand Castles. It was a love story of sorts, but the important thing was my thought is I went to turn the TV off. It was about us. It dawned on me that I couldn't recapture an awareness of us when we turned the TV off when we were living together I couldn't remember what kind of things we did, we felt, et cetera, in that situation. Maybe we never thought about it. That is what excited me. It doesn't matter, in my opinion, that we didn't think of our relationship, that we weren't aware of what we had. What excited me was that I thought about it now. One and a half years apart, I thought of us when I never had before. What a shame that I never realized how wonderful and exciting it was to have you to turn the TV off with, to go to bed with, to do dishes with, to fight with, to do nothing with, to be frustrated with, to be disappointed in, to share moments with, to ride in a car with, to have indecision with, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Insignificant things, I'm starting to think otherwise. It was easy for us to look at the highlights of life together, parties, vacations to Florida, but maybe we took for granted the mere fact that we were we and every moment was significant. Anyway, I couldn't resist the consciousness of this moment which went from a relatively depressing observation, a remoteness of us to a very positive awareness and appreciation of us. Goodnight, love. I don't know where we are, but we are, and that is a nice smiley feeling. - That's a very beautiful letter. - Could I borrow that in about four months? - From being apart we learned to appreciate being together as a couple, in addition to being individuals, and that's a valuable thing. - So what you're really all saying is that this decision that you made has affected your marriage, and affected it in a positive way apparently. Is that what you're saying? - That's what I'm trying to say. And in my case, it's a statement of future expectation because the separation has not yet occurred. And at the same time that I say that it has, I hope that it will have, or believe that it will have a positive effect, I'm not ignoring the possibility that it will have negative effects. That just seems to be part of the reality. And yet it doesn't seem to be something to be particularly upset about. I assume that if negative effects can exist or would exist in a year of separation. They surely have existed in six years of marriage and living together. - We will get into that in a moment because we certainly don't wish to create the impression that this is the ideal way to get married, above all your career and wherever it goes, and that it's better to be apart than it is to be together. Has it also, as the decision also affected your careers? We talked about its effect on the marriage. - It has already for me, and again, this is a future conditional kind of situation. I find that people are paying attention to-- - Excuse me, Bill, we keep interrupting you. - Oh that's all right. - But we have the caller. Good evening, hello? Would you come in, please? - Yeah, I'm interested in knowing if these couples have found Lawrence or any other community cooperative as far as leases or contracts where things like that are concerned, like who is responsible for each person's own financial affairs? - Okay, did you hear the question? Would you lik to respond to that? - Okay, I'll begin. In effect, I am living as a single woman here. This was part of my independence. When I left Neal, I decided I wanted to pay my own way. And so I have been working and assuming my own car insurance and things such as this. And so in effect, I've been living as a single woman and only suffering from the everyday discriminations which any single woman suffers from in Lawrence. - Now does that include a separate income tax? - No, we file a joint income tax. - There's a little different there then? All right. - I've been aware of some of Jan's experiences as they've occurred. And I think in many ways, living as a single woman, she has probably found businesses, industries, public service utilities and what have you in Lawrence or Douglas County or Kansas, to be more responsive to her as a single woman, than Jean and I have found them to be to us as a married couple seeking, for example, individual listings in the telephone directory or equalized billing on the part of utilities so that I don't automatically become the one who uses all the gas, garbage and sewage. It's incredible the assumptions, I think it's incredible, the assumptions that are made about a married couple, that we have been completely unsuccessful in trying to broach in this or any other community. - Well, some of the people who are testifying before Congress, a woman Griffis a committee on economic roles that women I suspect would dispute your question of the single woman being in a better position in regard to credit than the married couple. - Oh, no, I'm sorry. I don't mean it to go so far as to say credit because I don't believe that that's the case at all. But for Jan to walk in and say, I want to telephone and here's my name, no question. For Jean and I had to go in and say, hey, we are both alive and have a body temperature of 98.6 and would like both to appear in the telephone directory, we find ourselves combating incredible tariff regulations that seem to be more irrevocably based than the Statute of Liberty. - When I first came here, I also had trouble with the telephone company. - Well, that shit's out there. - Well, we had had a telephone in Lawrence before and in order not to pay the deposit money, I said, you know, I've had telephone in Lawrence before. And so they wanted to have my husband's name, my husband's income. I went to buy a typewriter and they had to have my husband signed the contract. I could not sign the contract on my own, various things like this. But in the main, I haven't found too much trouble with regards to businesses and so on. - Is our caller still there? Hello? I think she's gone from the telephone, but do you have anything further to add to the answer to that question? I hope we've dealt with a question that, what did you understand your question to be? What kinds of arrangements did you make about financial matters? - I heard a question about the comparative ease or or discomfort encountered in Lawrence as opposed to other communities, which I'm not particularly able to respond to. - I'm not even either. - I perceived her also to be asking some kind of a question about, did we face any discrimination in terms of getting housing available to us and utilities and that kind of thing. And in general, my answer to that would be not much. - There are certain economic in terms of taxes and that sort of thing, in fact, you are, or we are now, retaining two separate residences. Double expenses in terms of all utilities and all sorts of things like that, but it's not too different from two single people in that regard. - Which reminds me requesting that you people should be in a position to answer. One of the things that we consistently hear is that the new tech structure is more expensive for two professional people or two working people living together as man and wife than people with the same incomes living together without being married. Where would this be? You can always file separate returns if you want to, can't you, there's no requirement that you file? - No, I don't understand that criticism. - But on the other hand, you cannot take more than half, for example, if you are married when you file your income tax return, there's a certain amount of above which your deduction may not go. You may take as much as half of that, but you may not take as a single person could the entire amount of that maximum deduction, whatever it is in relation to your income. So, in a sense-- - Even if your file is a single person? - Well you cannot file as a single person. You can file as married people filing jointly, and that makes - Or filing separately. - I mean filing separately, and that makes a very big difference, the married part, then prohibit you from taking, either one from taking more than half of the available deductions for a married couple as a couple, where as a single person could take earning the same amount of money, having the same kind of expenses, we have run into that problem and have paid dearly for it. - Yeah, I was advised this spring, I think on April 14th when I was doing the income tax, that it was not possible perhaps because of the late date, but just in general that it was not possible suddenly to switch from previous years of filing married joint returns to filing married single returns. The advice may have been inaccurate, but it was sufficiently weighty enough that I chose not to take the risk. - Our number is 864-4530. Please call with either questions or comments. I think we've talked a little bit about how often, Nancy, you're the only one who told us how often you see each other. You try to do this every weekend, and used to try in the middle of the week too, but gave that up, is that correct? - Yes. - And do you feel that you are in touch with each other by this much togetherness? - Well, yes, I think so. - Are there calls in between or is this sufficient? - Well, we call periodically whenever we have some business to contract or whenever one of us gets really lonely or something like that and just wants to call. But I think the calling has has become more frequent as we got inured to idea of having a phenomenal kind of phone bill. But generally I think that being together on the weekends is sufficient if you're able to allocate that time for being together and not have to have too much else that you have to worry about doing at those particular times and do your other kinds of things while I work and so on when you're apart. - Now in the case of Bill and Bobby, it's got to be anticipatory, but what are you expecting? How long do you expect to go, Bill without seeing Jean? - I don't think there'll be many Wednesday and Saturday trips. I expect that I will go to France sometime around the Christmas holiday period. And I'll stretch that into as long as a visit as I possibly can. So I have an adjustment, I guess, made an advance that I'll go four or five months, and then see her for a few weeks, and then go four or five or six months more. At $12 for every three minutes or some such a figure, I don't expect very many long distance telephone calls. - Prepare to use extensive use or make extensive use of the mails? - We did when this was our case once before, the year before we were married. I think we practically deleted the supply that the Lawrence Post Office had of aerograms, which is the cheapest way to go. So, yeah, I'm sure we'll do that again. - What are you anticipating, Bobby? - We hope there won't be periods of more than a month or two when one or the other is, will not to be traveling so that we can see each other, hopefully with some regularity. - None of you really got married with the possibility of this sort of arrangement in mind, did you? - No. - Not at all. - Yes. - You did? - Yes. Well, it seems that the year before we were married, Jean spent in France. And I think I would've had to have been blind not to believe that the possibility, it not probability existed that such occasions would come up in the future. And we both were very independent, basically self-sustaining individuals before we got married. And to have assumed that that would have changed automatically was an assumption that, fortunately, I guess at the time I couldn't make. - Now the implication there is that the rest of you were not independent, self self-sufficient individuals. Are you going to respond? - I didn't say that, the rest of you. - Oh, I'll admit that. I was 20 years and I'd always been my parents' little girl, and at 20 I married my fine, older, established husband. And I immediately became his little girl. It was our joke that we would have a family as soon as he was done raising me. And never really considered myself a self-sufficient or independent until at last I realized that this was not what I wanted. And I found the courage to tell him that, and being a very, very sensitive and caring man, he said, I can accept that and go and be the person you want to be. And that's the person I want to be married to. - How about you, Nancy? - I don't think we married knowing this, but we did marry knowing that we were both going to get PhD degrees and that we would probably both have independent careers. We had hoped, I guess, foolishly when we married that we could teach, if not on the same campus, in the same area. And we really didn't worry a whole lot about it at the time. So I can't say that we married with this in mind, but on the other hand, it's inimical to the kind of relationships that we have ever perceived ourselves as having. - Bobby, do you want to respond to the implication that I did not offer? - No, I'll pass. - Now had you known anyone else personally before who made the same decision before you made your decision? I'm sure you folks had. - Sure. - The one anticipating it. - Before answering that, just another observation, Emily. And that is that none of us have children, and this is obviously a variable that makes a difference but there are some people that have made a decision with children. And I have a house guest right now, a young man who's a senior in high school, or will be a senior in high school and his parents have been parked for the last two years. His father is with the federal government and his mother is in education. And he's lived one year with the father and one year with the mother. And again, it was professional choice that they made and it seems they will be back together this next fall, so everything seems to have worked out very well as far as they're concerned. - Now what age was the boy at the time they? - He was beginning high school, and he's now senior in high school. - And has had any effect on him? - Well, wish he were here to answer that. Not that, certainly not any adverse effects that I can tell. - If any of you had had children made the same decision or would that have given you pause? Or would it make any difference about the age of the children? - I should think at least with young children the logistics of the thing would be absolutely phenomenal. It's bad enough to have to pack yourself a little bag every Friday afternoon and tool down the highway. If one had children, I should think that it would have to be almost the sole responsibility of the person with whom the children did not stay to do any commuting there was to be done and so on. I think that there would not be, not knowing much about raising children, I think that it would not necessarily be bad if such a choice were made with children, but it probably has to be more carefully worked out than you would if you don't have children to worry about 'cause you got to worry about keeping them in school and keeping them near their friends and all that kind of thing. - But basically the all that would require would be as you said before, that the decision would be made as to where the children would remain, and the other person would do whatever commuting had to be done. But there'd be more than that to it, wouldn't there? - I think there'd be a great deal involved with respect to simply the amount of time that either or both parents could be involved with the growth and gradual maturation and development of the children. When Jean and I learned that she would be gone next year, one of the first reactions we received was from a sister-in-law who said how wonderful you don't have kids and can take advantage of this. And my response internally was good grief, I'd never thought of that. But it would have made a difference. Maybe not in the ultimate decision, but at least, as Nancy was suggesting in the logistics and the planning and I think in the very careful kinds of planning that would have had to have been made. - It would depend too on what those children were like, wouldn't it? How secure they were and how self-sufficient and how old. - I'm aware of another marriage like this. The husband is a professional person in Western Kansas and the wife is completing an education degree here. And there are two children, a 14 and 12. And the decision was made to send the children with the mother simply because the education they would receive was deemed to be better in the Lawrence schools than in a small Western Kansas town. And they seem to have been coping very well with this family situation yet. - But I think on the whole, it really probably would be not any worse for the children considering children as a lump, than having a traveling salesman or some kind of traveling father for that kind of a situation, probably being apart from their father or their mother no more. - This assumes that the father then has a role to play other than the financial arrangements, I take it. - I presume. - Preferably. - Because otherwise it would be very common, of being gone, the father being gone for a week, coming home for the weekend. And probably that occurs in a really large percentage of families. I don't know what the percentage is, but certainly of all the people who travel, it would be a considerable number of children who'd be experiencing that kind of situation. I have a great many other questions that I'd like to ask and I'm sure many other questions in the minds of members of our audience, but I see that our time is up. I want to thank Dr. Bobby Patton, Bill Robinson, Nancy Bleezy, and Jan Sanders for joining us tonight for A Feminist Perspective, the subject, husbands and wives who live apart for professional reasons. We hope you'll join us again next Monday at the same time for A Feminist Perspective. - I'll have to get through the questions. Are there are some other really interesting ones in here that we should read. Might be fun to follow this up next week with some people who are in other kinds of patterns of marriage life. - Kathy Minecraft would be happy to come. - Going off on Monday morning, coming back on a Saturday night. Or being gone for three weeks. - I'm aware of a couple who live in St. Louis. He is a certified public accountant and she is district sales manager for a, it was a company that I recognized when I heard it. But part of her job is to travel to the different locales where company is represented. Almost a complete reversal. He has apparently a very stable and in my mind sedentary kind of job where he goes to the office and puts on his time and comes home. And she's off traveling for three, four, sometimes five days a week. - I was kind of amused the other night after I knew we were going to use this subject. I was invited to dinner, two girls and the mother. And in the course of the conversation, one of the girls said to her mother, says where's daddy? And the mother said, I think he's in San Diego. And the little girl said, when's he coming back? Well, I'm not sure, I think though, in about 10 days. Because it's a common occurrence, probably been going on all their lives. - But when I was growing up among my friends, I knew a number of people whose fathers were gone for, you know, several days at a time. And those people really never fight, you know, it's the man going off. It really doesn't make any difference as long as he's coming back.