- Hello, and thank you for tuning in to A Feminist Perspective. This weekly radio broadcast is sponsored by the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center. A program and information service of the Dean Women's Office, 22O Strong Hall. Also located in this center, is a large lending library. This library contains vast amounts of information, news clippings, government documents, magazine articles, research studies, and books pertaining to the many aspects of the women's movement. We want to invite you to come in and browse, or take advantage of the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center, 220 Strong Hall at University of Kansas. The materials in this center are as valuable for men as for women since sex role definitions and stereotypes affect both sexes. The subject matter for tonight's program is Secretaries. Our guests for tonight's program are, Vicky Hammer, Research Assistant for the Office of Affirmative Action for Women, who has been a secretary in offices at KU. And is also working on a master's in speech communication. Diane Wagner, who has just resigned her position working in the Dean of Men's Office to concentrate on work on her master's program in early childhood education. Susan Kesler is a secretary in the School of Social Welfare. And, Edith Black, who is an administrative assistant in the School of Social Welfare. And who's partly responsible, responsibility is partly involved in supervision of their secretaries. I am Judy Hadid, Assistant Dean of Women and moderator for tonight's program. We felt a little at a loss as to how we were going to start topic on secretaries. Since a lot of people might ask themselves what does secretaries have to talk about or complain about? Or why would women be interested in the topic, secretaries? The first answer that would come to mind is that most women are secretaries. Or most secretaries are women, excuse me. So we thought that we have a lot to talk about. We have an article that is entitled, "Fed Up: Secretaries in Academia". And since primarily, this is where we all work, I thought we should start here. This article was written in 1971 by Minnie Twiffle and Ellen Birdseye who work as secretaries at the University of California, Berkeley. And they have said in their article, the women in our office have consciously tried to achieve workers control. And we've tried to wage that struggle collectively. After each small grade gain from collective action or resistance, the basic structure of the situation always closed suffocatingly around us. We found out that behind easy friendliness between faculty and secretaries, existed a master servant relationship. We found out there was no way to institutionalize change within a structure where we had no decision-making power. We found within ourselves an anger that with we had anesthetized ourselves to in other more oppressive offices. And so maybe we can just start off with the idea of a master servant relationship in any office. Do you have any particular feelings about that? How about the informality formality problem? Maybe boss calling you Diane, Vicky, Susan, and yet you having to address the boss as the master type. - The change thing that struck me first is that I do believe, and I had thought about it. An office set up cannot be changed. As you grow and expand as a person, there is nothing that you can do except to leave. You can't raise your position. There is this, you are the secretary, you will always remain the secretary. There's nowhere to go except out. Perhaps some of the other of you feel that way in your past experience. - Yeah, I felt that way. At least, I feel like I've been in some situations where, or one situation specifically where I got to know the details and procedure of a certain aspect of the workings of the office quite well. And yet I felt that my opinions about what happened in that particular area were treated as very unimportant and insignificant. I was never asked, but sometimes I offered my opinion anyway. I remember one time, specifically, where I was patted on the shoulder by the boss and told it was not my duty to think, I was just to do what I was told. - Yeah, that's the ours is not to reason why thing, and I think that's becoming more and more apparent to a lot of people just in the world around us. We don't respond or react to almost anything. We become very epithetical because we have no effect on it. And which is another point that of the subject of the article, but one that I very strongly wanted to bring up, was the secretary's self-concept. I read, noted an article in the Sunday paper that said that people believe they're paid enough for their work. And I feel like that's a reflection of their self-confidence. They feel like they are being paid what they are worthy of. And they are worthy of a very, very small amount. And I find this has been a problem in the past for me as a secretary, is that my self confidence goes down because every time I see my paycheck, I know that I am not a really demanded person. How do you feel I can have a position that you're in being an administrator? Do you feel like- - Well, first of all, you said there's no place to go. That's very true. You don't just feel that way, that's true. There is nowhere to go. At the office setup says they are, particularly at KU, and that's all I know about is that budgets and organization charts are based on what we call unclassified positions which are faculty usually or research people. And then the classified staff, which are clerical. And usually those are minimum, either clerks stenos or clerk typist. And it is true. If you grow beyond that, and many people do, the only place is to be promoted into a different position someplace else who have a position that requires more experience. I don't know about the pay business. To me self-concept is extremely important thing for women to become aware of their worth and not be satisfied with a position that doesn't pay or doesn't require the abilities but just my own experience, looking for a job in Lawrence, Kansas, the simple is not going. - I'm thinking this was talking about pay. - Yeah, and it's much more important than weather. But I think it's probably a larger issue than just secretaries, as opposed to not being a secretary. I think it's a whole issue of women's salaries period and the opportunities open for women. In Lawrence, Kansas, the job of a secretary at the University of Kansas is probably as good paying job as many people can find. - I will second that having worked in Lawrence not at the university. The university pays very well compared to others. The university also has insurance added benefits that others don't have. So they are, I believe you're right, it is really. - I thought it was interesting they had and in the classified section of the newspaper, where a maintenance month in university. The salary was $600 a month and all that was required educational was eighth grade education, and, secretaries start here from around 370, 380. - 370. right. - So that's interesting to know once you have an eighth grade education. - That's for sure. - Did you apply for that job? - No. - That would have been a good experience, so that you know who would have that kind of talent, I don't know, whatever, But you don't apply for that job. Certainly have the qualification. - Do you feel like a secretary could possibly be promoted into a higher position after she has proven herself? Like, personally, I have felt that I was most capable as far as handling the responsibility and knowing the job, but that I could never ever be in a different position other than secretary. Even if he had taken on the responsibility, they'd be foolish to put you in a position that paid more, was less hours, for doing the same thing that you were already doing. Plus your added jobs. Do you feel like this? I think that that might be the case in some office. Maybe in an office you were, there was a position or a thing that you qualified for. In our particular office, there was a big division. There was either one thing or the other. And there would be no place really, unless we completely reorganized. And that would take such a exercise of paperwork to get it approved. You know, it's something I wouldn't even hardly know where how to start. But in your office, you may have seen a position that you were qualified for but you wouldn't be considered for. If that's the case, that's most unfortunate. If there is a case, then I think some kind of loud voices need to be or some kind of strong pushing that, you know, opens that kind of thing up and doesn't let it to go on. - I think that isn't usually the case though. I think not only is there lack of room for change and growth in the offices, it seems to be also within the state, in order to get any kind of position. And most offices, as you said, I don't believe have positions. - No. - There's a problem about speaking out in that you have a boss, usually, and a secretary. And the secretary is really putting her job on the line. Oftentimes she may feel that way anyway, if she continues to make complaints about small things that are big to her but may seem insignificant to her superior, supervisor, somehow, in some way. And that the problem in many small offices where there might be just a secretary is that she really does have to have the support of others around her. And that instead of competing with each other, one secretary against the other, to look better than the others, or type faster, or this sort of thing. That they really have to support each other, maybe. Organize in some way, be aware of the fact that the Labor Relations Board would be helpful to her, if she were fired for making some human demands. - I know a situation where that's happened. - Do you? - Where a woman in a secretarial position passed a petition around amongst her fellow workers. And, to present some kind of complaint, I think to the bosses and they fired her. She eventually sued them and won the suit because she was fired. - But, that, no matter how you look at it, if even winning a suit, she has really lost the job. I found that you can make yourself something like this. You make yourself uncomfortable and your boss uncomfortable. Perhaps it's not your immediate boss that imposes these rules and regulations. Perhaps it's partly tradition. He understands your feelings. He's empathetic with you. His hands are somewhat tied. All you do is just make your life extremely miserable. And I think, you know, if you do want to be the sacrificial goat type of thing, take it to court fine, but not to go back to the position. And I think that is where the secretary knows a person knows you can't go back. And so you have to stand up. And a lot of people, secretaries, especially at KU seem to be putting their husbands through. - Right - You don't have a choice. You cannot risk the money for the tuition. - To prevent it from becoming too gloom a situation, I think that the times are changing a little bit in that I think that many employers will be less likely to fire a person now because they make complaints. Because there are many more legal protections that have come up in just the last year and a half or so. I think the affirmative action programs, labor relations boards, there are a lot of different isles that a person can, not a different places that a person can turn. And I think that that most of the employers know about those and will be less likely to take such drastic action. - One thing I'd like to say is that I personally feel like the secretary somewhat sets the pace in some offices. Now, if she goes in and as the, may I get you your coffee and dust your office and pick up everything for you immediately, then it's going to be expected. Now, not always does she have this option, but if she goes in and says fine, we both can walk. So we both can get our own coffee. I have to dust my office. I'll be glad to wash, you know, or hand you the rag when I'm through. That is something that she can pretty well established herself at first. And going back to this, it's hard to change, I believe it really is hard to change. I believe that that's something she got to be aware of on the very beginning. - First day she walks in the door. - Or it should be covered in an interview. If she feels strongly about it, an interview is not, it's an evaluation on both parties. And she owes herself the time spent in asking him, am I making the coffee every morning. One thing, since the listening audience can't see us, I may just comment that I am a more mature type person than the other four people around this table. And so I must comment about that business of waiting on people and say, I agree with that, except that I must tell you that, I, in some times enjoy waiting on other people. At the same time, I enjoy the reciprocating, being waited on. And it seems to me that's the kind of relationship I at my age like to establish. I do wait on people and I don't think anything about it. I enjoy it, I mean, really, but I also sometimes, you know, kind of the category of courtesy though. - I think the fact that is. - Yeah, encourage understanding and relating to one another. - We wanna make them feel comfortable so we will offer them a cup of coffee. - Or it's a special occasion. Now I feel the same way you do. I've been around for quite a pile even though I don't look like it. And I believe that is common age that we. - I believe that's common courtesy. If someone has a bad day, or if someone's in a rush, but it shouldn't be something that's taken for granted you can get reprimanded for. - Oh, right, that kind of a servant kind of. - Okay, I agree with you 100%. I mean, there's absolutely nothing wrong with you getting your employer a cup of coffee. If sometimes it's not below him to get you one or bring you one to a meeting sometime, it's just that reciprocal courtesy that's actually. - If you had a lot of typing and haven't had much time to leave the desk or to take your coffee break, if that be the case. - But you know what? You can foster that kind of relationship. And it may take reminders. But, you know, once I say, you know, it's time you brought me a cup of coffee or, you know, some kind of remarks like that that says, Hey, wait a minute. - I wonder how. I wonder how many secretaries think of it, though. I wonder how many secretaries feel that the main servant role is part of their secretarial role. I had a job once where And I'm gonna tell you, this is an experience. Where the employer was doing absolutely nothing but standing in the doorway. And he says, by the way, Vicky, my desk needs to be dusted. - I probably told him that I wasn't going to dust his desk. Well, I don't know if I didn't tell him, I just didn't do it. I just didn't do it. And he was always asking me to run little errands for him and not reciprocating. It was completely a master servant role. - We really don't have too much of that in the fact that we don't have so much of a one to one relationship, we are working for you say assigned three or four faculty to work for but yet whatever needs to be done, you do. So we have really gotten away from that traditional boss, secretary relationship. There's why not to- - That's the supervisor. Because I was in a relationship like that once also, and that was due to the supervisor flat out stating this is the way it is. No one tells my secretary under me to do his first. You know like, I've set it up. You have a complaint. You come to me, and it's a protection. - Yeah, if it works, you know, back to your article that you read. - Continued thing about that since we're talking about tasks and from the article "Fed Up", secretarial work can be divided roughly into two categories, tasks that save time for the master and tasks that bolster the prestige of the master. And maintain status boundaries between master and servant. And this goes on to describe, for example, a secretary dialing a phone number for the boss, when the boss is sitting with his hands fold up and he can easily do that. Or running off a copy of something off the copying machine when all it takes is pushing the button and the boss could also do that. These are things that bolster the master servant thing and that many bosses really need for their ego booster. - That's fantastic. - Somebody, was it you who told me the story about the, I don't remember who it was, but that's nothing pisses me more than have an employer say, call up so-and-so in Kansas City. And while you dial the phone and go through all the operators and go through the secretary at the other end. He's lighting up a cigarette, leaning back in his chair. And then when you finally get the party on the line, he says, hold on, Joe, you all so and so And you have to say, sorry, I'll have to put you through to him. It's so ridiculous. You tie up five or six people when you only need two. What's worse is when they've gone to the bathroom. - Would you please hold. - The thing you heard though, what kind of bothered me was you said in an atmosphere of seeming informality of relationships between secretary that there still was the formal servant. - In this particular instance, you see the secretaries had won some some small battles, you know, and they make a distinction between the conservative master and the liberal master, but they are still masters. Their liberal masters, you know, allow them to do certain things, like wear slacks in the office when they're confined to a small area and have to do bending and so and so. It's supposed to be a concession that they can wear slacks in the office. And maybe think about kind of my attitude in our office that the secretarial scale and her supportive services are just as important as perhaps the intellect that requires the creativity of the manuscript or something like that. And that we, you know, one is just as important with the other. The loss of one means the job doesn't get done. And some of our faculty, I think we kind of have it, or at least I feel like we sort of have that atmosphere. And yet maybe underlying it, that's just a sort of a facade. And that really it is a, Susan, could speak better about that. - One example is traditionally, we had called them professor, doctor, whatever, collectively as a whole, the office staff decided we would go to a first name basis since they'd always called us by our first name. Several months ago, we just decided this is it. We'll call them Brad, Don, whatever. And it's carried out very well. And the funny thing is they haven't even noticed. - Oh, I would give you the reverse of that. - And this really happened. I was working in one of the professional schools and the secretaries in the faculty, and the students were on a very informal basis. And we called everybody, practically everybody, except maybe some of the vulnerables, you know, were around, by first name. And it was just very nice. And there came a change in the office. And there's a change in the position of one person. And we were told that from now on we wouldn't refer to the faculty by their title. - I just can't imagine that happening in our campus. - It happened. - How long ago, because I think, you know, - It must have happened a year and a half ago. We decided if students could call the professors by their first name, we certainly should be able to as we had a much closer relationship with them - And I suspect you said that they didn't notice it's because it was a natural thing to do. I mean other was probably on it. - Well that sorted out, the way the situation was there. - I have always heard that you can call them or the understanding oppression, I've been. So you can can call them by their first name when no one's around. And then someone comes in the door be it a student just a plain outsider is what it amounts to. Then it is by their title. - It's more of a formal thing because of the- - It's a formal, right. - I don't understand it at all. - Well, wouldn't that just be because within the office you may have in informal relations with each other, since you work together all day, every day. However, when outsiders come in, there should be more of a professional attitude. - I quite honestly don't see what the business of names has to do with our professional your offices. I mean, if you're slapping somebody on the back and laughing hysterically about a joke that maybe something else. If you're introducing someone, you know, that that's different too. But I just can't see that. It seems phony to me to do that kind of thing. - One think before we can begin all of them looking like we're Parker's kid, I feel like the secretary, a lot of secretaries bring things like this on themselves because like move to higher position or something like that. A lot of people, especially, it seems like KU have the reputation of secretaries not taking on the responsibility. They just want their paycheck. They are not willing to pull their end of the load at all. They refuse to accept any kind of learning. They will consistently, you know, month after month do something wrong. And so I feel like both sides of the coin have to be looked at here. You can see some offices, some of the deans, the men in the offices feeling the way they do about secretaries. When the turnover, I'm sure KU, should have a very high turnover. - Well, that's one thing. We don't have not had high turnover in our office. I would say probably we have probably, well I have no idea, but our people, numbers haven't been there over a period of time. So I suppose some offices do have a- - I guess, it indicates that everyone is fairly satisfied and they would look for home. I don't know that necessarily it's true. - They wouldn't even have a job to go. - The listening audience doesn't know that the few people who just spoke are the same up. Well, let's take a short station break. We'll be right back. Hello and welcome back. We want to invite you to call and if you have any questions or responses to anything we're saying, the number is 8644530. Our topic for this evening is secretaries. Our guests are Vicky Hammer, Diane Wager, Susan Kesler, Edith Black, and myself, Judy Hadid. Okay, I have an interesting quotation that I'd like to read again from the article "Fed Up: Secretaries in Academia". A secretary is not evaluated by the amount or quality of the work she does. So much is by her ability to look respectful, blend, and moderately busy at all times. I would like to comment on the secretary that we had last year, who has moved on. Her husband finished law school. And, she was just a real, super organized secretary. And by the end of the day, she had plenty of time to read the newspaper or work on needle point and this sort of thing. And I must admit that when I first came to KU and saw this, I really thought, you know, what is she doing, spending all that time, working on her own things. But the fact that she had completed the work and done it well, I think said a lot more for her than for me. And I think I finally adjusted to that. The fact that she hadn't stretched out her work to take up the full day, but that she could get it organized enough and have it done so that she had enough time for a few other things. - Along the line of look respectable. I work one place that I felt very, very strong. It was a private enterprise that we were hired on looks. The only people who were not, what I would consider, above average looking girls were in the mail room, which was in the basement. Nobody could get to them. So no one could see them. And I feel like that is most definitely. You can walk in an interview for a job. And if you are dressed and look really shabby, I'll bet you'll not getting the job no matter what your qualifications are. If you'd rocking a dress nicely, have your hair nice and have your makeup on, you will get the job if you look really good and you have halfway, maybe not even halfway qualifications, I don't know if anyone else has felt that kind of discrimination or if it just happened to be this one particular place. - I felt lots of times like I was being considered part of the furnishings in the office. I think that... I can't ever remember having a problem. I just didn't ask about whether or not I could wear slacks. Because in the winter time it's awfully cold up here on this hill. And I just started wearing them. - I think that there's a difference that in people who wrote the article on Berkeley where the weather's fairly tempered on here. And the fact that we do live in winter climates. - Really, but I think that the whole clause issue wherever it's discussion is pretty indicative of one of the major attitudes that people hold about secretaries. I mean, their role as part of the decoration in the office is very important. - Except that's also like in our office. - That would be the Dean of Men's Office. - Right, the assistance in that no one dressed could dress a very informally. It was not just the secretaries, but the dress code. It was, you know, to look nice and presentable. - But that was all the statement was, to be presentable and not be distracting in any way. wouldn't that be the main. - There was no statement, but I never observed anyone come to work looking extremely shabby. And I feel like it's true in other offices. And so, in a way of what's expected of the bosses are also, I suppose, expected of the secretaries. - That's still an equality kind of thing though. Would you expect, is that what you're saying? I think that's what I hear you saying. - I'm saying it's not just a one way coin. It goes both ways. - Now, I hear you saying that the executive or the higher ranking people are required to be in coat and tie. And secretaries are too. Now to me, if the reverse were true. If let's say in our situation, the faculty could come in old jeans and a sloppy shirt, and yet they would downgrade the secretary for perhaps wearing, you know, informal things and clogs and stuff. Then I think that would be, what I would object to. But if everybody in that office, the appearance is supposed to be Mr. Clean. Mrs. Great and all those things. But if I don't see. - Yeah, that's one point I'd like to, Mrs. Straight, Mr. Straight, name tags. My personal opinion about name tags is that no one really cares who you are. If they care, they're going to find out what your name is no matter what you do to try to prevent them from finding out your name. - Some offices have name tags? - Most offices I believe do. I refuse to have actual on your desk so if someone comes in and they say, well, and then first of all, we try for the Miss Diana Wagner. And then we say, scratch the miss, there's going to be nothing there. And I don't feel that there should be a name tag. Because I honestly feel like if you are maybe an executive secretary or someone like this, if your name is needs to be up so that you will take the person in and you will say, this is Mr. So-and-so, I'm sure he can help you. And they forget that person's name. I can see a use for the name to be right there. But in talking to the secretary, the basis is not, such that I feel like a name is needed. - Would you rather be anonymous? - It certainly would, because I feel like there's no reason to have the name there. I extremely dislike at having someone, in my opinion, take liberties with my name. - Well, liberty would be taken if you are forced to have a name tag. I've seen girls who really liked to have the name tag and thought that brought some prestige to her desk than not having one there. And so I think it's a difference of opinion, perhaps. - All right, pros and cons in that situation. The thing I guess that bugs me is the the lack of respect that might be involved, when some stranger comes into the office and immediately starts referring to you by your first name. - Right, and puts his hand on your shoulder. Like I've had this happen before, but I feel like taking liberties with my name. If my name had not been there and I was a nameless person, people tend to be a little bit more formal. - I would think then, if you didn't want a name pinned on your desk, you would say, you know, I object this name tag on my desk and it would go in the drawer and it would not be on your desk. - But it should never have been made in the first place. - I don't know that I would have even thought that that would be objectionable, not having been in that situation. And maybe the employer just didn't see it that way too, and only needed a reminder of how somebody else views that. Again, it's the openness that people have to establish, and maybe that's a myth and maybe you never achieve it, but I continue to say, we've got to... - Maybe there's an ideal situation of openness, Edith. What I'm saying is, I think that openness in the secretarial employer relationships. - Will never happen. - No, I'm saying that it would be good if more of it could develop, because I think maybe some of the problems that exist could be dealt with with just an open discussion. Others of them are much more ingrained. - I think too much that much of the impetus for that has to come from the employer boss. - Wow, I think the reverse. I think the secretary who is straightforward, who does not sit there and quietly complain to her coworkers to go home and just, you know, a half an hour, or an hour on her husband about what happened and how upset she is and how very low she feels and unworthy and everything. She needs to take it upon herself to say I'm upset. And this is reason I'm upset. - Go ahead. - Well, yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I think that it's a two way road that the employer has to become more aware of the human feelings in the staff, and the staff has, well, I think that there needs to be a lot of consciousness raising among secretaries, because it's something that you brought up at the beginning of the program about self-concept and about self worthiness. I think that there are a lot of secretaries who wouldn't conceive of complaining to their boss. - I agree. - It's what you conceive of it. - It's the situation she's in. It's the way she considers her position and the manner in which other people consider her position. And if someone doesn't consider it to be that important, she doesn't feel that important. And as a result, she doesn't feel like she has a right to impose her little emotional feelings on a boss. - I have a sister who has been secretary for better than 10 years, probably. And is an excellent secretary. And when she was looking for a job, was told that she was overqualified. She was too good, a secretary, for many places. Her worth as such then probably would be more than somebody else with less experience. And so the value that they would put on her abilities would be more as far as money is concerned. So she looked a long time. - Okay, we kind of touched on something that I'd like to bring out a little bit more. And that is the matter of sexuality in an office. You talked about being, one of you talked about being part of the furniture, you know, working in an in an office downtown and that the good looking ones getting the front office desks and the other ones being in the mail room. And then another thing that brought it to mind was the stranger who walked in the office and put his hand on your shoulder and became very familiar because he knew your name. I wonder if it's a matter of sexuality becomes a problem in an office, since most secretaries are women and many of the faculty and the administrators on campus are men. - I've been very much aware of those undertones. In one situation where I worked, in other situations, it hasn't been there at all. In one situation, though, you get the stereotype of the boss station, the secretary around the desk. I feel like I've been in that situation. It's no fun, really, to every day have to say back off. - I worked for a large company and it was a company rule that bosses had to leave their door open at least two inches, when they were dictating to their secretaries. Under no circumstances, could the door be completely closed. - It had been a problem there. - Since the day it was founded I believe. - Conservative. - Very conservative. - I think that in a lot of times that's a problem. - How about dealing with male students? - I personally didn't feel like it was problem. Maybe I'm kind of cold, but I think that people just kind of got the idea. Very few times did they become extremely familiar but I would feel uncomfortable. And the people that did so, it was more like a personality trait. Everyone, every woman, you know. - There's a difference too, because, of course, every time I've been a secretary, I've also been primarily a student. I've been employed as a student secretary. And there's a difference between your peer group relationships. Like Diana, I don't remember ever being accosted by a student. You know, except maybe verbally. - It's just this. - It was just the difference in the situation. Because you feel freer with the student and you can say things to them that maybe you couldn't say to your boss. I can get the message across more effectively . - You want more honesty, response I think is what you, yeah. - We've also touched on another subject that was brought up by almost every secretary and that I've talked to them, several of these other women have. And that was a matter of making coffee and dusting and that being housewife in the office kind of thing. Several of you have mentioned it to me. Why don't you go ahead and say what you would like about that? - Well, I was told by, I questioned some secretary friends about how they felt about certain, anything that they felt important. And I was told most definitely to strongly emphasize women secretaries slash in between are not coffee makers, and that men can make coffee just as well. I personally make the worst coffee in the world. When I make coffee, I have to read a chart and measure exactly, and then it doesn't come out right. I am sure that the men of the office could have made the coffee better than me. And I honestly feel that very strongly that I personally don't care for that being the housewife of the office, picking up after now, now that's okay. - Running errands for your boss. Oh, yeah, on the coffee thing. I was in a situation once, I don't drink coffee personally, but I usually ended up making it because I was- - I think we took a vote and none of the secretaries here drink coffee, right? - I do. - Oh, yeah, anyway, I ended up making it. And I learned how to make coffee, and one of the big, huge coffee. I can't make coffee for two or three people. It's just the 30. But anyway, one morning I hadn't had time to make the coffee. And the boss came in early and he immediately complained because the coffee wasn't made, okay. That upset me in the beginning, 'cause I was busy, and he wasn't doing anything. He could have made it himself, but I went and made the coffee and it perked him gone already. And he drew out a cup of it and immediately explained about how awful it tasted and that, well, I just told him that from now on he can make his own coffee. And I refused to make it after that. I'd quit, but not long after that. No, no, there was no pressure. I was ever asked to make coffee again, I refused to make it. - I think sometimes secretaries in a way ask for it by not flat out saying, "I refuse to make the coffee." Now, if they are hiring a coffee maker, and a duster, then that's fine. Both of you knew at the very beginning that- - Should that be in the job description? - I feel like it should, if you can't type or if you can't do work correctly, but you have a great smile, and you look good, and you make damn good coffee, and you can chug up and down the aisle, getting it for everyone. Then you're fulfilling your duties. But you should know ahead of time that those are your duties. - And you should not be penalized if you don't do them. I feel like that, the business of dusting furniture and running errands and coffee making, are not part of the job description. They're not part of the qualifications for a job. I think most secretaries go in expecting to do that. And if they don't do it, the employer is not only surprised, but chances are he'll really give her a hard time for not doing it. - Another point- - Unless she eventually give in. Do you think many of them do? - I don't know, I don't know. - Just for the sake of argument, okay, if he's gonna complain about this every day, I just assume. Do it, instead of listen to them. - I think lots of times the women don't complain. They just expect it to be part of their job and do it. - Okay, so you they don't wanna, you're not gonna drink coffee and you don't want it. And you tell your fellow that you work for that you don't care to make coffee. I think that's fine. You should do that. But maybe you like coffee, and you like to have a coffee pot around. Are you advocating then that everybody has a separate pot on everything desk, and you individually go your own coffee pot. I mean, it seems to me some way we're all human beings, male, female, one status or the other. And we ought to be able to resolve or to work out some kind of procedure to have a coffee pot in the house. - It's not that difficult a problem. The problem is prestige. - I don't think it is. - The problem is this is below my station. That kind of thing, okay. It's very simple, you've got five people in the office, okay. We've got five people in the office. On Monday, one person makes the coffee. On Tuesday, the next person, it's very simple. You just make up a little chart and say, Monday's your day, and Tuesday's the boss's day. - What if the coffee maker does have till 10 o'clock class, and he comes in at 10, what about the people who want coffee at 8:30? We've and down the coffee route. And we've always come back to the same spot. - Who the secretary is supposed to do it. - But, well, say that. But then the secretary, like, I object to the secretary being totally in charge of it as far as being the one to hassle for money. I had been in a position of not making coffee because I had spent the money out of my own pocket for so long. I decided, boy, that's it. I'm not buying another pound of coffee for this office until someone forks over when their salaries or, you know, fantastic. But they are, another thing is having to practically get down on your hands and knees and say, "Please bring the coffee, we're almost out." And then getting some kind of nasty reply of I just brought coffee not too long ago. - Well, the descriptions that you're saying there and what Vicky have said to me are intolerable for whether you're male, female, or what else and I just... - Yeah, I agree. I don't care what the problems are, as far as time, people get into the office. I mean, a lot of people, a lot of the the employers don't come in until 9:30, right? You're there at eight o'clock. And what if you want a cup of coffee right after you get to work? Well, yeah, I don't care what the problems are. They can be worked out. So that at least that there's some kind of dignity involved. - But that situation worked them out. - Yeah, the opportunity to work them out is absolutely necessary to at least- - Just the discussion of it. - But I don't know, the discussion of it isn't enough if after the decision's over, you get right back to the secretaries making that coffee again. Yeah, we'll listen to your problems. - Is it true that beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's logical. The secretary is there at eight. The first member, other member of the office is there at 9:30. The secretary cannot survive until 9:30 without her coffee. Then it is logical. Perhaps maybe switching off between secretaries. so that one secretary can have, or maybe at the end of the day having the boss clean up. - Well, we drinking coffee. - We did do that though, in the Dean of Women's Office, finally work out a schedule. I think we probably were a little slow in realizing that this may be a problem or take additional time from the secretary's regular duties. And we were a little slow in working that out but we have worked it out, so that the person who's on duty in the morning in the office, and not the secretary but one of the staff, makes the coffee. And the one who is on in the afternoon, cleans the pot and then rinses out any of the cups and things that have been left behind so that our secretaries don't have to now. Those are that process. - That's another good point. In fact, that people will not be so likely to leave their cups and things behind after they've had to do it, because they think if I'll wash up my cup. Whereas no one, it seems to, that doesn't seem to dawn on people when it's the secretary. It does on some people. But, I think I was delighted to see their office and do that because it was really kind of unusual to have an assistant running around saying, "Oh, I'm sorry, the coffee tastes so bad." Instead of having a secretary being told, the coffee tastes terrible. - Puts us in our place, I guess. - There's another idea of, that perhaps you may have felt. And that's the that we've also touched on. And that's a matter of free speech in the office. The idea that the secretaries can think that they may have particular feelings about something, and that the supervisor or boss is not very well willing to allow that secretary, who was also a woman, might have the ability to think something out and perhaps work something out that works better. Has that ever been a problem necessarily? - No, it isn't in a way for me. I developed a habit of having my crab sessions of talking things hand about I would like to do it such and such way. And then we sit down and we'd figure it out, can we do it? Is it within the budget? What is the reason why it cannot be done? If it's a good solid reason, fine, I'll buy that. And so as far as that. - I think just that one incident. Other people in the office, you know, we would sit down and talk about, okay, how are we gonna do this? - Well, perhaps, maybe we can just even take it on to personal feelings about things. If you have political ideas, that differ from the boss. Are you allowed to express those? Or make it known by wearing a button, or, you know, saying which candidate you're for? - I've never felt any problem as far as that is concerned I've always felt perfectly free to express except when I was a student teacher. - The teachers aren't supposed think. - Yeah, you're not supposed to have any political leaning. - I felt kind of a disappointment in me on a black armband. So I feel like in some offices you would get, not to tell you to take it off or anything like that, but kind of, I just can't believe. - Kind of a negative. - I'm so disappointed in you. - I'm sure it is quite there in some offices, depending on the office. - Yeah, yeah, I personally hadn't had any problem there. Which again is where, you know, like I feel like a secretary, back to this consciousness raising, as she changes and she grows within herself, and she becomes aware of things, and she sits down and she analyzes situations. If she's extremely unhappy, she says, okay, why? I think, you know, like there'll be more things that she'll become aware of. Perhaps, we have never been aware of things that were actually there. How long has it taken any of you to become aware of some of these currents that began to make you unhappy about being a secretary? I'm sure he didn't just come into your first job having all these feelings about your role and the role of the boss and everybody else. - I was a secretary in this one position for about a year and a half, and I was very happy there. And, then my attitudes about a lot of things outside the office started changing. And as a result of that, I began to become dissatisfied in the office. But I wasn't aware of what was causing it. All I knew is that I was turning into a very, very unhappy person. And then I was turning into a very, very crabby person in the office. And, then, you know, gradually it began to dawn on me that this was wrong, and this was wrong, and this was wrong. You know, taking this pattern. - We mustn't end on that note 'cause I feel like some of the things we've talked about in secretarial situation, would be the same in any kind of, I sort of say, menial, 'cause I don't know of being secretary, but a job that maybe you didn't go into a profession. Well, that was a wrong word. But so many people go into secretarial jobs thinking this is a moving away from place, not a thing that you're planning to do for 25 years. - Okay, we have to quit. And, I'm sorry, we were just getting started. Thank you for listening in. We'd like to remind you to come by and visit the Women's Resource and Career Planning Center and the Dean of Women's Office, 220 Strong Hall. We hope you will be with us again next week. Thank you again.