Okay.
Okay.
This is interview number eight in the Raymond Getz Oral History Project and it is February
21st.
Tell me your name please.
Steve Bukating.
And just tell me a little bit about your career as a lawyer.
Okay.
Well, I graduated from KU in January of 1975.
I spent a year and a half in Topeka with a trial firm, Fisher, Patterson, Saylor & Smith.
I spent the next 22 years with the labor law firm of Blake and Eulig.
And then as you know, I started my own law firm in 1998, which actually went under various
names as I took in partners.
The final name of the firm was Bukating Aubrey & Huntsman and I retired from that on August
1st of 2019.
How long were you a union side lawyer?
43 years.
Okay.
Had you ever met Ray Getz before you saw him in class the first time?
I had not.
Okay.
Had you heard anything about Professor Getz before you saw him in class the first time?
No.
I started law school in the summer and he actually taught the freshman contracts class.
So, you know, I had him very early on for class.
Which classes did you take from him?
Well, two contracts classes and labor law.
They didn't have the advanced labor law when I was at KU.
We were such dinosaurs.
Do you recall your first classroom impression of Professor Getz?
Well, my first impression was he was very stern and, you know, was very well organized.
But he was, I'm sorry, my other phone's ringing.
He obviously knew his stuff.
He seemed very organized and he didn't, he reminded me, I mean, later when I saw the
movie Paper Chase, the way Getz was in our freshman contracts kind of reminded me of
Paper Chase.
But that was my first impression of him.
What were his classes like?
I would say orderly.
You know, he really believed in the Socratic method.
And he, I don't know, he was very different in labor law than in contracts.
You know, your freshman law school, they try to put the fear of God in you.
By the time you take some of these upper level classes are different.
In labor law, he was very impressive.
I mean, he really knew the field well.
I really feel like he taught you a lot.
And he also seemed to have, I don't know if passion's the right word, but maybe a
passion for labor law.
So.
Do you remember how he treated his students?
Again, the freshman class was very different from labor law.
I've gone in the labor law class, but of course, you know, by then most of the
students that are in there wanted to learn something about labor law.
And I thought he was respectful.
I thought he was also encouraging.
I've got a story to tell you.
I don't know if this is the appropriate place, but it is.
Go ahead.
I came from a union family.
My dad was a teamster.
After coming back from World War II, he was probably a teamster for 30 years before he
retired.
He was a union steward.
He worked for one of the truck lines, PIE Pacific Intermountain Express, and they had
two groups of stewards under the Local 41 contract.
One represented the over the road drivers, the other represented the dock workers and
the in-town drivers.
My dad was the steward on the docks for, I would guess, 20, 25 years.
So I grew up in the union family.
All my uncles belonged to various unions, meat cutters.
Actually, one was a bartender, belonged to, you know, I'm not even sure which one it
was, the hotel union.
And my dad was real interested that I was taking labor law.
And we had Saturday classes when I was in law school, in part because old Green
Hall, where I graduated, was so small they didn't have enough room.
So they had to spread out the classes.
And I took the labor law class was on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, Saturday
mornings. And we would after class, when KU was playing football in town, we'd go
to the football game after class.
Well, my dad and a buddy of his, who was also a real active union guy, were coming
up to go to one of the KU football games with us.
And I talked to Professor Getz about a week in advance and said, you know, my dad
would love to meet with you.
You know, he's been a lifelong union guy.
And Getz said, yeah, sure, have him come up, you know, an hour before class or
whatever, and we'll sit in my office.
My dad and his buddy came up and Getz could not have been more accommodating.
And I'll tell you, my dad was three feet off the ground talking to this renowned
arbitrator and labor law professor.
And, you know, they talk shop.
My dad would tell him about some of the cases he had as a steward and, you know,
some of the strikes and things he'd been through.
And it was that that stuck with me my whole life.
So just how cool Getz was about the whole thing.
Yeah, that's a great story.
Did you ever have any students in contracts, especially more likely, that weren't
prepared when Getz called you?
Yeah, occasionally, especially because, you know, your very first class and then
the summer school, you only took a couple of classes each session.
And, yeah, Getz made it very clear that he was extremely unhappy and, you know,
and they would get a lecture about if they wanted to be a lawyer, they had to
be prepared, yada, yada.
Yeah, he was not very tolerant of people who didn't prepare.
I think he's one of the professors who said, you know, I spent all this time
preparing for class, I've already got my law degree, what are you doing?
So did you and your fellow students ever discuss his teaching style?
Oh, you know, probably just in general terms that he wasn't a guy you wanted to
piss off, but also, you know, he I mean, just as a general matter, he was just a
very good instructor.
Yeah, I really felt like in every class I took from him, I learned a lot.
And you probably remember if you had him for labor law, or if you had him for
contracts, he drove a Volkswagen, he had two Volkswagens, a Volkswagen Beetle or
Bug, and then a Volkswagen, I don't know, minivan or something like that.
And he was forever using those as examples.
The one that still sticks with me today is when he would talk about a mutual
mistake in a contract, and, you know, he meant to sign a contract for his for his
VW Bug, but somebody had written in VW Bus.
So the person at the other end thought he'd bought the minivan when in fact gets
intended to sell him the Beetle.
But I mean, he just did stuff like that.
He really tried to give you examples that were kind of down to earth that helped
you understand that the subjects that he was teaching.
Yeah.
Did you ever talk, well, first, did he ever invite you or your class over to his
home?
No.
Did you ever go see him during his office hours?
Yes.
Tell me about that.
Well, I mean, especially as I recall in the labor law, you know, when I would
have some questions about a boy's marketing junction or other various things
that were kind of technical, he always had an open door policy.
My recollection is, God, if we're going way back, I think you had to make an
appointment.
But I remember going to his office a couple of times and walking out thinking,
oh, so that's what that meant.
You know, and I just thought he was just an excellent teacher.
He could really explain things.
And I know because labor law is his passion.
He really seemed to go out of his way that if you didn't understand something, you
know, come and see me and we'll talk about it.
And then he had a pretty, pretty good open door policy.
Some of the professors really didn't like being bothered because they were busy
writing their Larview articles or their books.
But it always seemed to be available, you know, if you had a question.
And he didn't make it intimidating where you were afraid to go talk to him.
Did you ever work for him as a research assistant?
Say again, did you ever work for him as a research assistant?
I did not.
Did you know him as an arbitrator?
I'd never had a case with him.
I'll tell you how.
Here's another story and I don't know if this helps you or not.
As you know, you know, I worked at, I was at Blake and Eulich for 22 years.
When I left there, I was a senior partner.
And when I first went there, Ray Getz was still doing some work for the
Boilermaker National Pension Fund, which of course was one of our biggest clients.
And actually he was trying to do their collection work while maintaining that
hectic schedule he had as a professor and an arbitrator.
And I remember him coming into the office a couple of times in KCK and talking to
us. And finally, you know, I told Blake, I said, well, we can do this because he
was, he was overloaded.
He was having trouble keeping up on these things.
And I said, well, we can handle this.
This is just simple collection stuff.
I mean, it may be a little more sophisticated, but, you know, when you
had the provisions in ERISA that allowed you for attorney's fees and stuff, it
was pretty straightforward.
So long story short, as a result of Ray Getz, we ended up doing all of the work
for the Boilermaker Pension Fund.
That had been a client of his before he became a law professor.
And he just, he kind of kept it, but he was trying to get away from it.
Huh?
Yeah, that's interesting.
I didn't know that.
Um, did you, uh, do you know if Blake and Eulig used him as an arbitrator?
I did not.
And I'm, uh, I have a vague recollection that, that it may have been Tom Marshall,
but one of the guys, uh, I think had used him on a panel and it may have been a
case that, um, settled, but I'm not sure.
But again, you're asking me to go back a long way.
Yeah.
I've never seen his name on some panels.
Uh, did you, Ray served in various capacities in the ABA's, uh, labor
committee and, and in the Kansas city chapter of the old IRRA, uh, did you
ever serve with him in any of those capacities?
I did not.
Uh, did you, uh, did you ever socialize with him and his family?
Uh, well, I do remember him coming to a couple of, oh, they were
kind of like cocktail parties.
They were receptions that were being put on by either the Boilmakers
International Union or the pension fund.
More likely it was the international union at one of the big hotels, like
the Hyatt or, or, uh, the hotel of trans centers at the Westin.
So I do remember seeing him a couple of times at those things.
And it may have even been like their Christmas party, but I do remember
visiting with him a little bit like that.
It was so interesting how different he was there than he was in the classroom.
Yeah.
So describe that.
Well, he was very personable.
Uh, he was, I would say actually kind of gregarious, uh, that, you know, and
of course, I think it was, you know, another partner of mine who sat right
next to me in Jets' labor law class was Rich Calcara, who ended up doing
almost exclusively worked for the Boilmaker pension fund.
Well, and then some other fringe benefit, uh, you know, labor
management trust funds in town.
But, uh, I think it was the source of pride in him that two of his students
had, had spent their career, uh, in labor law or at least a long it had been
man five or 10 years, but I, you could tell he was kind of proud of that.
You know, he, he liked to give John Blake a hard time.
Uh, but that, you know, that was just kind of that natural camaraderie thing.
I think that he, he respected all the people that are firm, at least the
ones that he knew, but, uh,
How did he give Blake a hard time?
Oh, God, you know, again, you're asking me to go back a long way, but it
would be something like, well, yeah, you took care of that only because I
showed you how to do it or something.
Okay.
Um, do you remember, uh, the last time you would have seen Ray?
Oh boy.
I do not.
I remember, I remember hearing that he had died.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
And how, how did that affect you when you heard he had passed?
Obviously it made me very sad.
You know, this was a guy that, uh, did have a lot to do with, with
my becoming a labor lawyer.
I mean, I was always interested in lay as an undergraduate.
I majored in economics and I took all the labor classes, labor, labor economics.
I even took a collective bargaining class in which I was chosen as the,
the chief labor negotiator.
We actually negotiated a contract, but, uh, but yes, did have a lot to do
with my becoming a labor lawyer.
In fact, here's the story I forgot to tell you.
Um, I, uh, you know, like most law students, I interviewed my last
semester in law school and I graduated, you know, at the semester instead of in
May, and I had accepted a job with Fisher Patterson, which it, which actually
worked out good for me because I got some good trial experience, but after
that gets called me while I was still a student and said, you know, there's a
labor law firm in Kansas city that represents unions, and I know you're
interested in that, but is looking for an associate.
And, uh, and I talked to him and I said, well, I would be really interested,
but I did take this job where the trial firm, do you think would be a
mistake to back out on that?
And he, I really admire this.
He said, yes.
He said, you know, you don't want to start off right out of law school like that.
If you make a commitment to a firm that you're going to get a work form,
you should get a work form.
Uh, and so, um, he asked me, he, I can't remember how this came about either.
He or, or Blake and you like asked me if there was anyone out on all.
I know what happened.
I called Cal care because that lazy shit didn't have a job a
month before we were graduating.
And I said, Hey, this firm in Kansas city is looking for an associate.
You know, you took labor law like me.
Uh, you may want to get ahold of the gets and, and, uh, he ended up calling
gets ended up interviewing Blake and you look at they hired him and then a
year and a half later, uh, after I'd been in Fisher-Patterson and I'll be
honest with you, Topeka wasn't my favorite place in the world.
And that comes from a guy who was stationed at Fort Hood, Texas for a
year and a half, but, uh, Cal care of communists and, Hey, we're looking
for another associate, a guy named Bob Funk who'd been one of the partners
had left to become the general counsel for the, uh, what was then the retail
clerks and, uh, he said, uh, would you be interested in this?
And I said, Oh yeah.
And actually John Blake, uh, came to Topeka a couple of times and interviewed
me and then offered me a job.
So it's kind of a full circle story, but gets did actually refer me to Blake
and you like while I was still in law school.
Yeah, that's great.
Um, and to get back to the question, I felt kind of a loss because, um, you
know, it was just such a great guy and, and, and what a mind, I mean, the
man was brilliant as you know, and just, but he didn't walk around with his nose
up in the clouds, uh, like now he was intelligent, he was organized.
Oh, I remember one, here's one other thing that is probably doesn't matter
much, but this has stuck with me my whole career, uh, gets said to us, our,
our class, he said, you know, when you get out of law school, writing is
going to be extremely important.
There are going to be all kinds of people who before they have ever met you are
going to review something you've done in writing, it may be a letter, it may be
a brief, it could be anything, and they're going to form opinions about you
based on those writings.
And if you're sloppy in your writing, if it has grammatical errors, if it's
poorly worded and poorly reasoned, they're going to form a negative opinion
to you before you've ever had a chance to make a first impression in person.
And boy, that always stuck with me.
And, uh, and to be honest with you, as a guy who hired a lot of lawyers over
45 years, I was just amazed at how often I would see resumes, uh, that had
grammatical errors in it.
And just, it just blew my mind.
I mean, you want me to hire you and you can't even put down correctly on your
resume when you went to school.
You know,
yeah.
Um, did, did you ever talk to Ray about your military service and his?
I don't remember talking about his, but I do remember talking a little bit about mine.
And he did seem to kind of have a soft spot for us veterans.
And now that I think of it, both Rich Kalker and I were veterans and, uh, I
mean, he didn't go out of his way just to act like veterans were better than
anybody else, but you could tell.
And I remember too, you know, I told you about that, how he so graciously met
with my dad and his buddies, uh, on a Saturday, uh, before a football game.
And, uh, my dad, uh, was pretty decorated in world war two.
He was a Marine Corps Sergeant, the Pacific and his buddy had been in the Navy.
And I remember those two and gets talking about the military quite a bit.
Now that you mentioned it, I mean, they just didn't talk about union state.
That was part of the discussion and you could tell that that gets, uh, well, I
remember in some fashion, uh, uh, professor guests, uh, complimented both of those
guys on their military service.
So that's great.
Well, any other memories you can think of that we haven't discussed?
No, not off hand, you know, again, we're, we're going back into the early 1970s.
So I just, I just had such a high opinion of him, uh, not only from his days as a
professor, but then from the contact I did have with him after I graduated.
And boy, uh, they, you know, it was a great loss to everybody when we did lose
him, but also it was a real feather in the cap of the KU law school that they
had a professor of that caliber, you know, I'm sorry, I have trouble believing
that any Ivy league school in the country had anybody better than that
teaching labor law.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm going to stop the recording.