This is interview number seven in the Raymond Getz Oral History Project.
It is February 18, 2022.
Could you please tell us your name?
I'm Mike Delaney.
And just give us a thumbnail of your, when you went to law school and what your practice
was like.
Yeah.
I graduated law school in the fall of 1973, graduated in 1976.
I had spent the four years before I started law school in the army, so I was coming back
to Lawrence at that point.
I joined the Spencer Fane firm as an associate.
The summer after I graduated from law school and practiced there, I'm still a retired
partner at the firm, but I practiced actively for about 40 years before I retired.
Off and on while I was in practice and pretty much consistently since I retired from the
firm, I've been teaching as an adjunct lecturer here at KU at the law school.
And I did mostly, for a long part of my career, I did both traditional labor work and employment
discrimination litigation all on the defense side.
Towards the end of my career, I did less and less of the employment litigation work and
more and more of the traditional labor work because I found that to be the more interesting
part of the practice.
Had you ever met Ray Getz before you saw him in class?
I had not.
I was thinking about this the other day.
I had heard about him the summer that I moved to Lawrence to start law school.
I wound up at a party at somebody's house on Mississippi Street and several of the people
that were there were law students.
I think they were third year law students.
We talked about law school and I mentioned that I was about ready to start and it must
have been after I already had my list of teachers because somebody asked did I have Professor
Getz as one of my teachers and I mentioned that I did.
The comment was he's really tough or you're in for a rough go of it or something like
that.
He had an inkling of what Professor Getz's reputation was before I actually saw him in
class but I never met him before then.
Which classes did you have from Professor Getz?
My first year I had contracts both semesters.
I'm pretty sure that I took evidence from him too because I think Professor Wilson who
often taught evidence was on sabbatical the semester that I would have expected to take
it and I think Ray Getz stepped in to teach that.
Then I had him for labor law and I think that was during my second year.
I think it was in the spring semester, my second year.
Do you recall your first classroom impression of Professor Getz?
I don't have a recollection of the first day but pretty early on I formed a pretty clear
cut impression.
He was perhaps, let me back up just a second.
I thought the faculty at the law school when I went was just an extraordinary group of
teachers.
Particularly the younger faculty but of all of the people on that faculty, a number of
whom I respected a lot and came to be very fond of.
Ray was the best teacher and he's the best teacher I had in any environment.
He did not follow any pattern in the way in which he directed questions to the class.
The fact that you had been questioned yesterday didn't give you any protection against being
questioned today.
He also didn't appear to pay much attention to who you were.
He followed along on his seating chart and called on you by name but it wasn't at all
clear to me that he actually could tell the students apart at least initially.
He was one of the large section classes so there were probably 60 or 70 people in the
class.
He would call on somebody and then begin to pepper them with probing questions about the
material.
I think one of the things that that did for me after the first time or two that I was
subjected to that kind of question was it convinced me that it was really important
to carefully read all of the material in his class because I didn't want to be in a position
of being embarrassed by not being able to respond to the questions.
That fed on itself because the better prepared I was for class, the more interested I was
in actually participating in class.
It helped.
I think in that respect, it helped make me a better student overall.
I had been a very undistinguished undergraduate student I'd have to say.
I turned out to be a pretty good law student.
But I do have another distinct recollection about Professor Getz's approach to the class
that happened during that first year.
In those days, you went home before final exams during the winter break and then came
back to take the exams.
I don't remember whether the change in his way of approaching the class occurred before
the exams were over or after and during the second semester.
But sometime over that winter break, Professor Getz saw the movie The Paper Chase.
And I did too.
Sometime over the winter holiday, I saw it.
Ray was a perfect KU example of the sort of teaching style that Professor Kingsfield took
in The Paper Chase.
And I think maybe that struck pretty close to home because when we got back and certainly
during the second semester, Professor Getz put away the seating chart and knew everybody's
name, I think he probably by that time did anyway.
And he committed to going up and down the row.
And if he ended at student X on Monday and came back and started the wrong way down the
row on Tuesday, he expected that you would speak up and say, no, Professor Getz, you're
supposed to go the other way.
And so you at least had a day or two's notice in that semester that you were going to be
on the hot seat at some point in the next couple of days.
And he was an extraordinarily tough grader.
And out of the 60, 70, 80 people that were in the class, I think he gave three A's that
first semester.
And the other contracts professor gave a, you know, True-False Multiple Choice Condom
Examination.
And he had in his section, maybe 12 or 15 people that had gotten the A's.
And that was a source of some frustration, I think, among the folks that were in my section.
There was some at least initial schadenfreude when in the second semester the professor,
the other professor got seriously ill.
And Ray took over his class and was going to administer an exam to that class.
And that class with that section was panic-stricken that they were going to wind up getting the
exam that Ray gave to his section.
And as it turned out, somebody rooting through the other contracts professor's desk found
the exam that he prepared.
And Ray administered the exam.
And it was another short answer kind of an exam.
And he wound up giving, I don't know, eight or 10 A's to the folks in that class because
they all had the same score.
And he still only gave like four or five A's to the folks in his class.
So he was an extraordinarily principled guy, but very demanding in the standards that he
set and expected his students would meet.
Can you describe his classroom demeanor?
He was very formal in the way he approached the class.
And I think that was part of the reason why folks were intimidated by him.
If he knew you were stuck on a question, he wouldn't run away.
I mean, he'd keep driving until he got you to either confess that you had no idea what
the answer was or get out something that sounded more or less like what he was hoping you were
going to come to.
And then he'd move on to the next point.
But he didn't go easy on the students.
And it didn't seem, at least at the time, it didn't seem to me that it made any difference
whether he thought you were a particularly good student or a weak student.
He was sort of an equal opportunity questioner.
I did have one interesting individual experience.
So that first semester, I was living in a house with some friends, with some people
that I'd known as an undergrad and some additional students.
And we had a little house on Ohio Street down in the block that the J-Hog Cafe was in.
And that semester on the football game weekends, somebody in the section would host a party
on Saturday, usually early in the afternoon.
And so midway through the semester on a game day, we were going to do a party in the backyard
of the house that I was staying in.
And whatever the last class of the week was, and I don't remember whether it was Friday
or what, I got to class a few minutes early.
And I was writing on the chalkboard the address of our place, you know, section party at Delaney's
Place, whatever the address was on Ohio Street, BYOB or something like that.
And I was about two thirds of the way through writing this up.
And I hear from the back of the room, Mr. Delaney, what are you doing?
So the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I turned around and said,
oh, Professor Getz, we're having a party for the section at our place on Saturday after the game.
You're certain, you and Mrs. Getz are certainly welcome to come if you'd like.
We'd love to have you.
And it was like a switch went off.
The tone in his voice changed and the demeanor changed.
And it was, well, that's very kind of you.
You know, I'll talk with my wife.
She keeps a social calendar in the house.
If we can make it, we'll be happy to show up.
And I was, it was, because I thought I was going to be expected to claim
erasers after class or something for being depraved.
So going back to how he was in class, did you ever have any students who were either unprepared
or less than fully prepared that you recall?
Yeah, well, I, yes.
And, you know, Ray would leave them pretty shaken because it was clear to be,
it'd be clear by the time he'd asked his second or third question that they didn't have any idea
what that case was about because they hadn't read the material.
And I also think that in addition to, in addition to changing his pattern from
random to regular, you know, sort of sequential questioning of individuals,
he also allowed people to pass if they, they didn't even have to give an explanation.
I think he concluded that he didn't necessarily want to be that much like, like King's Field.
Yeah. Did you ever have, somebody else told me about
how he treated students that had skipped a class because it was their turn to be up?
Yeah, I don't remember that. Well, in first semester, you wouldn't have known whether it
was your turn to be up. I mean, you might've skipped because you knew you weren't prepared
and didn't want to be called on. But, but at least that first semester, I don't know how you
would have known that it was your turn to be up because he wasn't going in any particular order.
And the second semester, I don't know, I don't have any recollection of him getting even with
somebody for missing their turn and making it up with them the next, the next class.
Did he ever invite your class or you over to his home any time?
He did not. I, it was my understanding. He, he had been teaching an advanced labor law class or a
class in labor arbitration or something, generally to third year students for a while. And it was my
understanding that he would have that group to his house sometime during the semester.
But he didn't offer that class my third year because I don't remember why, whether he might
have been on sabbatical or he was covering for something else. But he didn't invite, it would
have been a, it would have been something of a chore to entertain all 75 people in the first year
section. And he didn't do that with our labor, with our big labor law class.
Did you ever talk to Professor Getz during his office hours?
I don't recall. I think I did. I think I did when I was, when I was
interviewing firms during my second or third year. I think I had a conversation with him during
office hours. But I don't recall, I don't, I don't recall ever going in to talk about
classroom materials, you know, to ask a question or to resolve a question that I had about something
in the material that we've been assigned. Did you know that you wanted to practice labor law?
Didn't have, I mean, I came to that sort of as a result of enjoying Brady's class,
but there were some others. I mean, I had the teacher who was teaching,
I'd had him for civil procedure and commercial law and
something. Oh, and I had him for creditors rights. John Landers, a young New York
fellow who had was, had only been at KU for a year or two,
left some shortly after I graduated and became the chair of the, of the bankruptcy department
at a big West Coast firm, Pillsbury or somebody out west. But John was an extraordinary teacher.
I mean, really a brilliant guy and a great teacher. And I had really enjoyed his creditors
rights class, which focused mostly on federal bankruptcy law. And in fact, the spring semester
after I graduated, that would have been in 77, the associate dean at KU asked if I'd be interested
in covering a creditors rights section because one of their professors was on sabbatical.
And they wanted somebody who would teach the bankruptcy section. And I did. So when I got
to the firm, I did some work with the firm's bankruptcy partner, Mendel Small at the time.
And, and, but, but in those days, Spencer Fain had a formal rotation program. You spent six months
in labor and litigation and six months in corporate and everything else. And as the end of the, the,
that rotation was coming around Eleanor Schrader, who'd been an associate at the firm
in the, in the labor department, accepted a tenure track appointment at KU to teach. And,
and Harry Brown, the head of the labor group was looking for somebody to take over her docket.
And I, and by that time I decided I would be interested in practicing labor law. And so I
asked Harry if it'd be okay if I split time between labor and bankruptcy. And he indicated
he didn't think that was a good idea. So, so I ended up full time in the, in the labor group and
then sort of never, never looked back. Do you remember anything about your discussions with
Professor Goetz about looking for a job? Anything specific?
Yeah, I don't. I, I think I had, there was, there were one or two firms from, from Chicago
that interviewed on campus at KU at the time. Safer, the firm that Ray had been a partner at
was not one of them. But I think I asked him about other firms I might inquire of in Chicago,
because I was going up to see Lord Bissell and Brook or some, some, somebody there was a firm
in the continental bank building, a big firm that was, that had, had interviewed on campus.
And I talked with them and I figured if I was going to go up there, I'd try to talk to a couple
of people. And I think I asked him whether there were other firms that he thought it might be worth
seeking out. Did you ever work for him as a research assistant? I did not. Did,
did you ever discuss your military service and his military services? You know, I didn't realize
until I read your, your article, I didn't realize Ray had been in a naval aviator. I don't think
there were certainly other folks on the faculty at KU that I had, you know, made more of a,
you know, made more of a deal out of their military service. I remember one of the English
professors I've had as an undergrad was, you know, let everybody know that he'd been a baby flyer.
And I didn't, and frankly, I made no secret of my, of the fact that I've been in the service. My,
my typical law school garb was a pair of jeans, you know, sort of worn out at the knees and a
fatigue shirt from, so people pretty much knew that I had just gotten out of the army. But,
but Ray never mentioned anything about his service and he never inquired about mine.
Well, that's too bad. I was hoping that, that you had. Anyway, did you know Ray as an arbitrator?
I, I did. I was trying to think. And in fact, I, I, I found myself locked out of my office computer
or I would have gone back. Spencer Fane Keaton, say, book of evaluations of arbitrators that we've
used, not, not over the years. And I was going to see if I had entered any, any evaluations of Ray.
I don't think so. I think for two reasons. One, early on when I was doing work with some of the
other lawyers, I think Stan, because of the fact that he'd been one of Ray's
research assistants, I think either, either Stan or Ray or the two of them together had
concluded that, that he wouldn't hear cases that Stan was involved in, at least for some period
of time. And so that, to the extent that I would have been working with Stan on those kinds of
cases, that would have meant we probably would have used somebody else. And I think later,
when I was in a position to be selecting my own arbitrator, Ray was so busy with his permanent
panel kind of stuff that I don't remember ever being involved in, in a case. I don't have a
specific recollection of being involved in a case that he was hearing. Did you ever talk, did you
ever see him at any professional, you know, an ABA meeting or anything? Yeah, I saw him one time
I think it was the year that he was the secretary of the labor section, the labor and employment
section. And he gave the, you know, the keynote address that runs down the Supreme Court docket
for that year, which I think is the, I mean, that's typically what the, what the secretary's
responsibility is. And I'm pretty sure I was at that ABA meeting for, at least for the first 15
or 20 years that I practiced, I went almost every year before they split the ABA, the labor sections,
EER, CLE meeting off from the main meeting. I generally went to the main meeting and took in
the CLE stuff that went on there. Did you talk to Ray about his arbitration practice ever?
I think casually later, you know, I'd run into him from time to time, like at the Dean's Club
dinner and that sort of stuff. And we'd talk and I, when I'd be in, I taught later when Eleanor was
teaching labor law and employment law at KU, when she would go on sabbatical, I would generally
cover whatever course she was teaching, would have taught the semester she was gone. So I think
Georgianne and I taught, co-taught her labor law class one year and a couple of years later,
I taught her employment law class and I would have run into Ray then because he was still at the,
you know, at the law school on a regular basis. You know, just to exchange pleasantries,
I suspect at that point. Did you ever serve with him on either the ABA's labor section or
was he president and involved in the Kansas City IRRA chapter for a number of years?
Yeah, I was never, he and I were never active at the same time on any of the committees or
anything that I was involved in. In fact, I think the first committee I got involved in,
to any extent, was the EEO committee and that wouldn't have been raised forte, I mean, at the
time. So, and I was involved in that for a number of years before I sort of switched to the
developing labor law and practice and procedure group, which would have been closer to Ray's
core interest. Did you ever socialize with Professor Getz or his family? You know, I didn't.
I heard from other people that, you know, attended functions at his home and whatnot,
that his wife had an extraordinary art collection that they put together.
But I never, and frankly, I don't think Ray took me up on my invitation to come
to our party, or at least I don't recall seeing him there, but I think I do recall him being
at Professor Olfother's farm for the Law Day deal my third year. Most of the faculty came,
at least for a short period of time, and I think he probably put an appearance at that.
When was the last time you saw him?
You know, I don't think I saw him after he retired, so it must have been sometime in the
mid to late 80s. I'm pretty sure the last time I saw him, it would have been in the law school,
and I think he was still teaching on a regular basis when I did, or when I last saw him.
Do you remember when you learned that he had died?
It would have been through, probably through the Dean's note or something in the,
you know, something that would have circulated that way. I remember being surprised he didn't
seem nearly old enough to have died at that young age, and he always seemed, I mean,
at that young age, and he always seemed, I mean, while he seemed like, he seemed like sort of a
consummate adult when I had him as a, but he also seemed like an extraordinarily vigorous guy, you
know. He never seemed like an old codger, just like a real grownup.
Do you recall your feelings when you saw the Dean's note or whatever that told you he had died?
Yeah, I, as I mentioned at the outset, I had just the highest regard for him, and I,
as I mentioned before, I turned out to be a pretty good law student, and I attribute an awful lot of
that to being pushed by his teaching style. I wish, you know, I've been teaching
law students now off and on for a good long while. I wish I had that same ability to sort of draw
that out of students. It's a real gift, and I, you know, the labor bar, the labor and employment bar
in the community and the university community, they lost a real talent right past.
Any other memories you can think of that you haven't shared?
I can't think any. Okay, well, thank you. I'm going to stop the recording.