Okay.
Okay, this is an interview for the Ray Goetz Oral History Project.
Please tell us your name.
My name is Ron Kimsey.
Okay.
What's your first memory of Professor Goetz?
Contracts, 1968.
He was, I don't know, been there maybe a couple of years.
I was a first-year law student, first semester first-year law student.
And Ray was teaching basic contracts.
And let's put it this way, he was one of my first introductions to the practice of law.
And it was an interesting one.
He was a tough taskmaster.
Tell us about that.
Well, Ray had practiced law for some time prior to his becoming a law professor.
So he was frankly a little more practical, if you will, and certainly more demanding
than some of the law professors that I ran into.
Although, I will tell you, in my first semester of my first year of law school, I thought
they were all very demanding.
But Ray was very practical and he was just, you know, he taught you what it was really
all about, not necessarily just the basic elements of it.
Why are we worried about this, I guess, is what he taught more than anything else.
And he made sure that you were up to speed.
He was not kind to those who had not read the lessons and or prepared in advance to
answer the questions that he asked.
Yes.
So tell us about that.
How was it that he was not kind?
Well, he was he never spoke harshly to anyone that I recall.
But you know, he had this sort of look on his face and you just I don't know, he you
just felt bad if you weren't able to answer his questions.
And I think pretty much at least anybody that I knew felt sort of the same way.
You know, we we did not want to draw his ire.
Exactly.
Which other classes than contracts did you take from Ray?
I took every class that Ray taught, which I recall, and I remember this is 50 some years
ago.
It was contracts, the basic labor law course.
And I think the only other one he taught was labor arbitration and collective bar.
I think it was a combination of collective bargaining and labor arbitration.
And then the other thing that I guess really drew me closer to Ray Gatz is in I think it
was our third year of law school.
May have been second, but Ray decided that he was going to write the definitive article
on Section 8B4.
And he got four of us, I think it was four of us, as his research assistants.
And so I worked for him for gosh, I don't know, a semester.
Well three three other guys and me.
I say guys because remember there are only two females in the entire class in those days.
Far different world from today.
But anyway, we worked as his research assistants while he wrote this article on 8B4.
And I swear I read every case that had ever been decided on Section 8B4 of the National
Labor Relations Act.
And believe it or not, I enjoyed it.
Yeah, so I've reached out to your other compatriots on that project.
And I think they're all going to be interviewed.
So what was it specifically that you did other than read the 8B4 cases?
How did you help Ray on that?
Well, I mean, basically, he would tell you I need to find out a particular...
I'd like to see a line of cases that deals with this issue within 8B4.
You know, sub sub two or something, you know, too little I, that kind of thing.
And he'd give you the assignment and you would go and you would read the cases and you would
prepare a summary of virtually everything that you could find on that particular issue.
And he did ask you to analyze and give you or give him your thoughts on it.
So which I think the four of us probably would have done anyway, just by virtue of the
personalities involved.
But it was it was an excellent introduction to what it took to really learn the law.
And in this case, a particular subsection of it.
And as you well know, Doug, the section 8B4 is not exactly the easiest part of the National
Labor Relations Act to understand.
In fact, my recollection is that the article that he wrote was titled A Path Through the
Swamp.
There you go.
So when I interviewed Stan Craven, who was one of your co conspirators on that project,
he he said he didn't really do much on it, he said.
But he said that there was an interesting story about about that title.
Do you know anything about that?
He wasn't involved in it, but he said he thought he remembered that somebody objected to
the swamp part.
I don't recall that.
And I mean, I may have known it at the time, but, you know, I have a hard time remembering
what I had for breakfast, much less that far back.
Understood.
Before you got to law school, had you heard anything about Ray Getz?
No, no.
My first introduction to Ray Getz was when I walked into that contracts class.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you recall your first impression of him as he walked in or stood in front of the class?
No, I mean, I can't really say that.
My first impression, I guess, thinking back as best I can, was that the man knew what he
was talking about.
He really truly started out impressing me as compared to some of the other professors
who will remain unnamed, of course, who would sort of went off in a tangent, if you will.
But Ray got right to the nitty gritty.
I was impressed with him.
What was his classroom demeanor like?
Very calm.
Very calm.
How would I describe?
Incisive.
Calm.
But like I say, he knew what he was talking about.
He'd prepared well for it.
And, you know, he made sure you towed the line, if you will, stepped up to the plate,
however you want to phrase it.
And I'm not saying everybody did.
Obviously.
But for those of us who were truly interested in getting through law school, that was good.
That was fun.
Right.
Did you ever discuss his teaching style with your fellow students?
Doug, if I did, I don't recall.
You know, I recall discussing it with Ray.
Okay, tell us about that.
Well, I mean, I basically said essentially the same thing.
You know, you seem to know what you're doing.
Is there anything in particular?
He says, no, he says, I just enjoy doing it.
I like doing this.
And, you know, I prepare in advance, just as anybody who's practiced law for any period
of time should do.
And that was basically it.
He didn't think, I don't know that he really thought he had a particular style as such.
He was just Ray Gatz.
And that was what he did.
And, you know, he was embarked on at that time a new career and he was going to make
it his own.
This is the way I understood it.
Right.
So Ray did, and I'll send everybody this.
I've asked the research library for a copy of it.
He did a faculty, a retired faculty interview that I'll send you.
Oh, good.
And in there, he talks about his feelings about the Socratic method.
So what do you remember about your experience?
Well, I guess the only way I can think of it is his version versus other professors' versions.
He, like I say, he asked a lot of questions and many of them were about the Socratic method.
And I think that's the way he did it.
He, like I say, he asked a lot of questions and made you toe the line, if it were, to
answer those questions.
And he made you follow up questions so that you were, you know, you might be totally ignorant
when you answered that question the first time.
But by the time he got done with his questions, you would sit back and go, oh, yeah, okay, I got it.
Now I've got it.
So he never, he didn't drop the ball on that.
He would keep coming until, and not always with the same person.
He would switch, maybe switch people, but he kept following up until it was clear what it was he was trying to get out of.
Or the point he was trying to make.
When you were in law school, how often did you talk to him outside of class?
Oh, gosh, I don't know.
I mean, honestly, it was whenever I had a class with him, I would often talk with him after class about a question that I had or, you know, how about this or how about that?
Just because he always, he kept me interested.
And I mean, that's the reason I became a labor lawyer is Ray Getz.
I mean, he would, he was the kind of teacher that you just wanted to emulate.
What about, yeah, right, no.
I mean, I think that is what we're going to hear from everybody.
What was it about him that made you want to be a labor lawyer?
Well, he, he liked labor law.
You know, he, he enjoyed it.
I mean, when I was trying to figure out exactly what I wanted to do, Getz was the guy who said, well, you know, you really ought to think about practicing labor law.
It would fit your personality.
I didn't go further to ask what that meant, but.
Well, yeah, that's too bad, right?
So, did you, did you ever go to his house?
Yeah, from time to time, but particularly when we were working as research assistants.
We'd meet him there, or I would, every now and then, to get an assignment or to hand in, give him something that we'd worked on.
I don't recall ever having a meeting of all of us or anything, but every now and then, you know, I met his wife and that was about it.
Right. And so they were all business meetings, pretty much.
Yes. Yes, I would say that's true.
What do you remember about that house?
Lots of modern art.
You ever talk to him about that?
I did. I asked him, you know, a little bit about it.
And he would tell me something about this painting or that painting or this sculpture or that sculpture, but he was really into modern art.
Enjoyed it, knew a lot about it, as best I could tell. I knew nothing about it, so I cannot be a judge.
But he truly enjoyed it, as if I recall correctly, his wife did too. They were sort of in it together.
Yeah, great. So did you know Ray as an arbitrator?
No, no. It's interesting. In all the years I practiced labor law, I never had Ray on a panel. Never once.
Which I guess wouldn't be too surprising because he was primarily in the Midwest, upper Midwest, and he showed up on panel.
Well, you know how they do panels. And at least in those days, there was a lot of regional stuff going on.
And most of my arbitrations were either West Coast, East Coast, or South. So he never showed up on a panel.
I proposed him as an arbitrator in several cases, and I never got a union to buy off on that.
I obviously killed him just by proposing it.
Yeah, well, that's kind of surprising really, given his reputation, I think.
Yes, I tended to agree with that. I thought he would have been a good choice, which is why I did propose him, of course.
Yeah, so that raises another issue. In his classes, in his labor law classes, did you ever perceive that he had a bias or that his management background came through somehow?
No, I did not. In fact, when I was looking for a job as a labor lawyer, he recommended that I interview both union side and management side firms.
And which I did.
But I knew which way I wanted to go.
I mean, my undergraduate degree was in business administration, so I kind of leaned that direct management side anyway.
But no, Ray, I never perceived him as having a bias.
Did you ever serve with Ray in any professional organization, like he was actively involved in the ABA's labor committee, and I think he was secretary of the collective bargaining subcommittee or something?
No, Doug, I was not a... I belonged to the ABA, and that was about it.
I was busy practicing law at the time.
So after you graduated, tell me how you... when you saw Ray or when you talked to him, that kind of thing.
Well, I graduated in 1971.
And I had a two year commitment in the Army.
I went through ROTC, graduated in 68, commissioned in 68, went to law school, got out or graduated in May of 71.
And I, you know, of course, had talked to Ray throughout law school.
But then after law school, I went around trying to find a job.
The Army told me, okay, you'll come on active duty one year from now, after I graduated, and try finding a job with a law firm when you say, well, I can be here for a year, but then I got to go away for two years.
So that didn't work out very well.
And I had been working for the county attorney in Lawrence, Kansas, for a year prior to this, all the way through, well, all the way through my second and third year law school.
And so the county attorney was kind enough to go to the county commissioners and get another assistant county attorney slot.
And I became an assistant county attorney in Douglas County, Kansas, for approximately a year, basically prosecuting criminal matters.
And during that time, I would go to law school and talk to Ray from time to time.
And then after I went on active duty, the Army decided, the Army being the Army, that I didn't really have to stay there for two years, they'd let me out after three months, which again put me into panic because I had no job, right?
So one of the first things I did was go back to Lawrence, and I sat down with Ray Getz, and I said, Ray, I really would like to practice labor law.
What do you recommend?
And he basically said, well, here are the firms that you should think about.
And he immediately said Seifert-Shaw, which was his old firm, as a potential.
And I said, Ray, I'm not going to Chicago.
I've been there in the wintertime.
But he honestly did suggest that I look in the South, because this is 1972, and labor law in the South was rocking and rolling.
It was a good place to go if you wanted to be a labor lawyer.
Were you a union side or management side?
So I interviewed a number, a few firms in Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix.
But, you know, there weren't that many pure labor and employment firms in those days.
So anyway, but I ended up following his advice, and I went with Fisher and Phillips, a management side labor firm in Atlanta, Georgia, and was there for, oh gosh, until 1978.
And then seven of us who were partners in Fisher and Phillips took seven associates and started our own firm.
And then, you know, Ford and Harrison was the name of it, or is now, I guess we started out with a different name, but in any event, had quite a ride from then on.
But Ray was, you know, he was the guy that I went and talked to about, okay, what do you think?
What is it I'm looking for?
And he was very kind, very good.
You know, he was just one of those guys that you could sit down and talk to and know that you were getting his honest opinion.
Where did you talk to him at that time?
In his office at the law school.
Yeah.
And then, did you talk to him after you started practicing after you went?
A few times. I mean, I would go back.
Well, my folks still lived in Topeka, so I would still go back there every now and then.
And whenever I had the opportunity, I would go by the law school and say hello to Ray.
And he was always very open, kind, glad to see me.
Had me talk to one of his labor law classes one time.
And he just happened to, you know, it was like I walked in the door and he was going to teach a class and said, come on, you can say a few words to my class.
Okay. That was about it. But I mean, it was off and on from then on.
It really wasn't very often.
Did you socialize with him at all after you went to work as a management lawyer?
No, not really. Not really.
You know, I was just too far away to be that close to him then.
Sure. When was the last time you saw Ray?
Hmm.
Mid 90s, maybe. Late 90s.
He had, I recall that he had gone to part time teaching the last time I saw him. He was not teaching a full schedule.
So I think that would have been the late 90s.
I don't recall to tell you the truth.
Yeah, he totally retired in 87. So it was a little earlier than you think. If he was still teaching.
Okay, then I'm thinking it must be the late 80s that I'm thinking of. Time flies, Doug.
Yeah, no. I tell you, I hear you.
So, and was that just another, you were back in the area?
Yeah, dropped by his office, said hello.
Caught up on a few people and that was about it.
He did seem to know what I was doing however. I was surprised that he had followed what I was doing.
And I think he did, but he knew what all the other people were doing too. I was kind of surprised.
That he knew as much about his former students as he did.
Yeah, how did that come up? What did he say?
Oh, I would just, you know, how's Stan Craven doing? Who's Stan with? Spencer Fane.
What about Larry Peterson? Well, you know, and he'd tell you, well, he spent a few years in California.
And then, you know, came back and he's out in McPherson now.
And, you know, it was that kind of just catching up on old friends.
Did he tell you how he kept track of you?
No, he never did. He just, I never asked. I mean, it was, he just seemed to know, well, you know, I understand you guys left Fisher and Phillips and started your firm.
And then, you know, as time went on, well, you guys are getting bigger.
And yeah, well, you know, how many lawyers do you have now? That kind of thing.
Yeah. Do you remember the, do you remember learning that he had died?
Yes. I don't recall how I learned that.
Honestly, I do not recall enough about that to really tell you. I remember hearing it. I remember being very sad about it.
But it had, I didn't learn about it for several months after he passed.
Did you know that he had been sick?
No, I did not. I did not.
As we sit here today, how would you describe Regetz?
Intellectual.
Yeah, smart.
A gentle, incisive mind.
Yeah.
Do you have any other memories of Ray that you'd like to share?
No, no, Doug, you pretty well covered it. I, like I say, he's the reason I became a labor lawyer, and I owe him a great debt of gratitude. I had a great career, enjoyed every minute of it.
And everything he told me about it was dead on.
Great. Well, thanks for doing this. I'm going to stop the recording.