This is interview 10 in the Raymond Getz Oral History Project.
It is February 23, I think, yes, 2022.
Tell us your name, please.
Albert Kuhl.
And give us a little bit of background about your practice.
Well, I practice employment law in greater Kansas City.
My office is in Overland Park.
I've been doing that for 28 years.
And had you ever met Ray Getz before you had him in class
for the first time?
I had not.
Had you heard anything about Professor Getz
before you had him in class?
I had.
I, of course, had heard his reputation
as the Kingsfield of KU Law School.
And I had a slight personal tie to Professor Getz,
the preceded law school.
What was that?
Well, my father, Bill Kuhl, had worked
as the director of research and education
for the Boilermakers Union that was headquartered
in Kansas City, Kansas.
And he had started that job in the early 60s.
And through the 70s, he had gotten
to know Professor Getz due to Ray's role in union management
work.
And I believe he had done legal work for the Boilermakers
Union at one point or another.
And my father had met him that way.
And so did you meet him also at that time?
I had never met Professor Getz prior to starting law school.
Now, my dad and I had had conversations.
And I was well aware that he, of course,
taught at KU Law School and that he
had met my father on several occasions.
And they knew each other a bit.
Which classes did you take from Professor Getz?
I took contracts.
And I also took labor law later, I believe my second year.
What had you heard anything specific about his classes
before you started?
Yeah, I had heard that he had a certain bearing and style
about his approach.
And certainly, I think those things proved largely true
in my experience taking those courses from him.
What was your first impression, if you remember?
Well, of course, we're talking about our contracts class,
first year law school.
And I remember thinking he is perhaps
the sternest of our professors this year.
But he also had a sort of sly wit about him.
And I found that very interesting and engaging.
Although, I must tell you, I was intimidated
and dealt with that the first semester of contracts.
What was his classroom demeanor like in contracts?
I was thinking about how to characterize Ray.
And I would say the two words I'd use would be dry and sly.
He didn't crack a lot of jokes.
But you knew he had a sense of humor there.
And there were points in time when that would pop out.
And the other thing about it was the stern approach
most of the time that kept everybody very focused
and I think really prepared you for that in practice
later when you'd encounter, for example, a judge
with a similar approach.
And the nice guy, sort of Midwestern manner
that somebody was trying to demonstrate most of the time,
that's missing in courtrooms.
And Ray prepared you for that.
Can you think of any particular example
of when his sense of humor would pop out?
It might be something as simple as a pun from the case
that somebody might be reading something in the opinion that
was in the casebook.
And he'd catch it, make a comment.
Obviously, if somebody might make a misstatement
in the classroom, he might comment on that.
Not necessarily critical, but in a funny kind of way.
Of course, it wasn't a comedy show and everybody got that.
But there was that undercurrent about him
that I think most everybody understood
was this was a great, great guy.
But he knew he was there to prepare people
for situations they might not have otherwise been used to.
In courtrooms or with clients or adversaries in a conference
room, whatever it might be.
And looking back on my experience,
I think he probably amongst the entire faculty
was the best at that.
Just describe how he ran his classes briefly.
Well, of course, it was the Socratic method.
So several people would be called on each day.
So of course, that would mean that if you were first up
and you knew where you stood because you go down the row
and then to the next row in the Socratic method,
so perhaps three or four students would be called on
in a given class setting.
And he'd take his time with the individual.
But you kind of knew that you wanted
to answer efficiently and accurately.
He wasn't going to be highly critical.
But there was a sort of a demeanor
that he projected that gave everybody the sense that they
wanted to succeed.
Do you recall any instance when somebody was not well-prepared
and how Gets treated him?
Probably on several occasions, and I
think he tended to do this early in the semester
to kind of give everybody a sense of what he was about.
For example, if you weren't prepared,
he might cut off the conversation
and even move on to the next student.
Just end things.
And I think that sends a very strong signal
when everybody's there trying to be prepared,
and generally speaking, very few instances
did I encounter where somebody was fully unprepared for Ray
Gets.
People just didn't do that.
Do you remember any conversations
with fellow students about Professor Gets' teaching style?
We'd all talk about it.
And it was certainly something that was kind
of an undercurrent for students was,
this is the class you want to go into prepared
when it's your day to talk.
And I think you could talk to anybody about his approach,
and that was the undercurrent and understanding
that we all had.
When I took the labor law course,
it was a little more relaxed because he understood
that everybody had been through the Socratic method
for a year or more.
You didn't take labor law your first year, of course.
And I felt like at that point, I had
gained a better understanding of his approach,
and I had a greater degree of comfort
than I had that first year.
Were you ever at his home?
I don't recall that I was.
What did you think of him as a teacher?
I thought he was highly effective at what he did,
and he had that intuitive understanding
that he was preparing young people to do things
in the career legally that they might not have been
comfortable with previously.
And I'm speaking again about that whole sense
of being in a conversation that's tough
and being able to get through it and not give up
your position necessarily or find yourself overwhelmed.
Of course, that's what the Socratic method is about,
is preparing kids to talk in a group extemporaneously.
And he really understood that, and I
think he made people deal with the pressures in a way that
was really constructive.
I do have one quick story.
Go ahead.
All right, so my first year in contracts with Ray Gitts,
I had probably been through questioning at least one time
because I believe this was probably my second time
around the room.
So it would have been four to six weeks, seven, eight weeks
into the semester.
And I came to class that day.
I was sitting towards the back, and it was my spot.
And I was a little nervous, a little edgy.
And I think I was probably going to be second up that day,
maybe third.
And I was overcome with stress.
And I hesitate to call it a panic attack,
but it was darn close if it wasn't a panic attack
because I literally was physically overwhelmed,
racing heartbeat, couldn't catch my breath.
And I exited the room.
I literally thought I was physically going to get ill.
And I left.
I was not called on that day.
And I was really embarrassed by this event.
I really didn't talk to anybody but my roommates.
And at the time, first year, I and another first year,
Mike Martin, were renting a house along with a third fellow
who wasn't in law school from Professor Keefe Meyer.
And I reached out to Professor Meyer
and literally went and sat and talked to him in his office
about what had happened to me in contracts with Ray Getz.
And he got me through it.
And so I was able to kind of get a perspective.
And of course, he talked about the Socratic method
and some of the things that this is about
and why it's done the way it's done
and why Ray Getz did things the way he did.
And I got through it.
And I made it back and sat through the rest of the semester,
answered questions at least one more time,
and finished the first year.
And then labor law the next year went by.
But that was my one experience in law school
I've recounted on a variety of occasions,
especially in new lawyers.
Told that story a few different times
that it can be overwhelming.
You find your way through and you're better for it.
And certainly that's why I feel about that experience.
Did you ever talk to Professor Getz about that?
I may have when I was in labor law,
I'm trying to remember,
I think I mentioned it in passing to him the next year
during the labor law course,
I think I probably chatted with him at one point or another,
maybe in his office.
I'm just a little vague on that.
I think I shared it.
But I was still embarrassed by it to a degree.
But it stayed with me.
And you kind of gain perspective from experiences like that
later in life.
And I certainly feel I have.
Did you ever talk to Professor Getz
about your career plans or?
You know, I think I did so that second year
on at least one occasion
when I was taking the labor law course.
My memory is I stopped in
and we had at least one chat in his office
during that semester I took labor law.
But it's a bit vague.
So I can't be very specific about it.
Did you ever use Ray Getz as an arbitrator?
I don't believe I did.
No.
Did you ever interact with him
in any professional organization?
Like he was, I think, president of the local chapter
of the old Industrial Relations Research Association.
No, I didn't have that opportunity, which I did.
Do you know if your dad did?
You know, I don't think so.
My dad was not an attorney.
You know, Pete, he was a lawyer.
He had a PhD in labor economics,
and so worked for the Boilermakers Union.
He had interactions with Professor Getz professionally,
but I don't think it was through an association.
I think it was based on the Boilermakers matters
that I mentioned.
Yeah, there were certainly people like your dad
involved with IRA.
Did you ever see Ray Getz socially at a law school event
or anything like that?
I'm trying to remember.
My general memory is no, I don't recall so,
but it's possible.
Do you remember when you learned that he had died?
Gosh, I don't.
I don't believe that I knew immediately of his passing.
Any other memories of Ray Getz you'd like to share?
I just think he was an incredible, to some extent,
perhaps unappreciated asset of the law school.
And I would say that in large part because he had,
he did not have the Midwestern bias issue
that we sort of fall into as native Midwesterners
where it's let's be nice to everybody
and hope things go well.
And Ray Getz understood that in business
and labor relations, et cetera, there's often tension
and it has to be dealt with.
And you gotta come to battle prepared
to do that on occasion.
And I think that he was an incredible asset
to the students because he kind of imbued you
with that understanding.
You didn't have it from before in your upbringing.
You got it there.
Okay, well, thank you.
Most welcome, pleasure.