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Wednesday, December 8, 1971
University Daily Kansan
Wade Stinson In the Arena of Administration
Editor's Note: Wade Stinson, director of the Kansas University Athletic Association, has been praised for fielding a variety of winning Jayhawk teams and beamed as a "dictator" and an explorer of football. The Kansas Anson Editorial Writer, Tom Salghutter, Stinson reflects on the controversy and the glory of KU athletics.
SLAUGHTER: There seems to be some sort of a question as to who the athletic department is actually responsible to. Who is your boss?
STINSON: My immediate boss is the Chancellor. When Chancellor Chalmers came, he issued a new revised table of organization that was pretty high quality, and he ended the Endowment Association, the alumni executive director and the director of athletics reporting directly to him. Now I have, the athletic corporation that is, has a board of control in each alumnii, six faculty elected, several ex-officio members, and three students, and they're a policy making body. But I'm charged with the direct administration, or, you might call the athletic executive officer of the athletic department.
SLAUGHTER: Dr. Chalmers then has control over any final decisions you might make.
STINSON: Right.
SLLAUGHTER: What do you consider as your prime responsibility as the athletic director?
STINSON: The complete overall administration of the athletic department—the athletic division of the University.
SLAUGHTER; User
STINSON: Now, and I suppose I've said this many times, we are a separate corporation from the University financially. Now that is only a financial separation, because we are charged by the University with living off the revenue we generate. However, I am paid by the state. It has to be that way because of NCAA rules and Bid比赛, institution or corporation, has to be institutionally controlled. That's why my boss is the Chancellor and in the final analysis, it's the Board of Reents.
SLAUGHTER: Can you tell me what the approximated budget is of the athletic team?
STINSON: This past fiscal year we just finished?
SLAUGHTER: Yes
STINSON: 1.8, almost 1.9 million.
SLAUGHTER: In your relationship with the corporation and its financial autonomy from the University, how much control do you the athletic director have over that
STINSON: Well, I have direct control within the guidelines of what the athletic board determines. They're the ones who approve the budget before it is submitted to the University. The athletic board appraises the budget, with the charge we have, we can set up a budget, but it's different than dealing in appropriations, Tom. That's what people have a difficult time understanding. So much appropriated for this to the University. We that much money, we want them to spend. That amount of money. But in our situation, we budgeted it to a reasonable amount. But so much of our end results depends on how many people will come see our product. They buy our product, which is coming to see our athletic events, our team rosters, our coaching. If we have a bad season, our revenue's down, it may be below the anticipated revenue.
LAUGHTER: A member of the athletic board told me that they try to give you a good workout, but the board doesn't like the way the department is being run, rather than taking an active role in governing the department, they need an athletic director. Is that your understanding?
STINSON: That's correct. That's the way I want it.
JLAUGHTER: Why is that?
STINSON: It can't be run any other way,
because I'm the one that's actively involved with the operation. Somebody outside cannot know all the problems, cannot see the things to do at a particular time. They can't get into administration. That's why it's policy. We try to follow, at least I try to follow, the policies the board sets up. But the actual administration has to be left up to me, otherwise they should have to have their own corporate board, does not get involved in the administrative day-to-day work.
SLAUGHTER: How do you perceive the role of major intercollege university athletics within the larger concept of the sport? Or do you see you see the two relating to each other?
STINSON: Well, let me say this. I think athletics, intercollegiate athletics, has a vital role in any university. I don't care what size it. I don't think the size has anything to do with it. I think a good athletic department attracts many people. I don't know otherwise come. I think it builds loyalty, good dedication to the university. People are able to identify because of the athletic role your university has, or played in the past. I don't know of anything else that attracts 50 thousand people on a weekend at the university other than athletics. Or for that matter, 17 thousand in the Field House. In the spring, the big event is the Kansas Relays. There's nothing else. So you get to the arena and watch an athletic event, to attract people to come to the event. Band Day. You attract musicians because of Band Day. They come, and the University likes that. They
SLAUGHTER: When you say it has to be authoritative, what do you mean?
they have been against, or that they've come out against.
STINSON: I've always believed that every individual will operate at maybe 25 percent capacity or 25 cent of their potential for business, in anything. The reason you need leadership, and I refer to a coach, is to get the individual athlete to inch up to 50 per cent. That's the authoritative aspect. Plus for proper participation, proper preparation, you need to be well-versed in physical, medical, training, as opposed to participation. Not all the kids who participate want to follow the rules of training and you have to set up rules and regulations with some penalties if they don't. You cannot do your own thing unless you're able to take an athletic team. You've got a team to think about. It just can't work any other way.
SLAUGHTER: What do you think the responsibility of the student body at large is?
STINSON: Well, let me say this, I'm not sure there is a responsibility. But I know that the students want to get in probably with the students. I would like fee allocation for athletics is not a subsidy. It is classed only in the student books as athletic admission, student athletic admission. I think it's incumbent upon us to provide as many events as possible, to as many people as possible, to as many possible. I would like to get as much money as possible from the activity fee
'By the very nature of intercollegiate athletics it has to be quite authoritative, and I don't think it will ever change.'
want complimentary tickets for interested high school seniors to a basketball game. The University does. They can come see the University the weekend of a basketball game and be favorably impressed. Well, I would personally hate to see or know what a university would be like without intercollegiate athletics.
SLAUGHTER: You think, though, that major sports overshadow an extensive physical education program for the every day student?
STINSON: I don't see the relationship at all. Intercollege athletics is for those that excel in a particular sport. We see hundreds of students over here in intramurals playing touch football, basketball, softball, and what have you. I don't know how many we have because I have nothing to do with intramurals. But I am sure they are taking part in some sort of a game. Not that they excel in it, but that they enjoy it, you see. So I don't think it overshadows anything.
SLAUGHTER: In the time that you've been at the University in your present position, have you noticed a change in the way you're talking about major intercollegiate athletics.
STINSON: As far as a change, not really. The only change I have noticed, and I think it not only here, but across the country, is that we are no longer athletics. For example, and I think this may come with a larger enrollment, it is very difficult to have a rally prior to a game because students are involved in so many things. They really don't have time to do that, and the game, as evidenced. But as far as taking time out for the rab-rah rali, I think that has changed. Now, why, particularly, I'm not certain, except that there are so many activities. And I have noticed in this period that there is a growing movement, athletics has been known as a part of the establishment. By the very nature of intercollegiate athletics it has to be quite a bit authoritative, and I don't think it will ever change. I think that has become a part of the students and faculty as well, to attack because it has been a part of something
allocations because we need the money, even though some students on the Student Senate have said we didn't need the money. We spent something like $160,000 more than we took in last year. We can't do that anymore. Otherwise, we'll be out of business. But, if they want to cut out the activity fee entirely, that's fine with me. We would still try to give the students as cheap an admission as we can. It's a good idea, but that's not the amount of income we have to generate, too. As far as the activity fee is concerned, I want it to be fair to all extracurricular activities.
SLAUGHTER: Do you think there's any truth in the comment some people have made about your student being that as long as they're making this $150,000 trade for a lower ticket price that there should be a significant student contribution on the athletic corporation?
STINSON: I think there is. There are three.
SLAUGHTER: Out of a total member:ship of what?
STINSON: Twenty
SLAUGHTER: You think there's an asl for more student membership on the beaches.
STINSON: If you're asking me if there is a need, I would say no. Some of the students might feel so. But if you relate the $150,000 to the two million that our budget is this year, you probably have over-representation.
STINSON: Well, I don't know about fair because the people making those statements don't know. There's only one thing you're supposed to believe, that's because you're put on the defenses always through criticism. I think we've had a great deal of unjust criticism. Well, for example, on Dave Bartel's editorial that was directed at me. You know I've never talked to Dave Bartel and never met him! Dave Bartel is not good enough. I don't know—in other words, I'd like to
SLAUGHTER: I heard you criticized as being too secretive, and sometimes defensive, about events and situations in school. Do you consider those fair critisms?
know the reasoning behind the editorial. He might be right. But I know he's not right in this. But I don't understand modern journalism, I guess. Now, I think there's more to it than meets the eye. I'm not really positive this is his editorial, you see. Because, obviously, he hasn't tried to call me for a job, and did call me one day for this type of interview indicating that you were going to come down and see me, but I never asked him about his editorial. I would naturally be on the defensive when right underneath there is a letter written to the Kansey by Gary Neal Peterson, second year senior in chemistry at Columbia University. This letter that says, "It is a fact that elite members of the Alumni Association and KU administrators, as well as state employees, may obtain a membership to have a drink in the club situated in the football stadium." Well, she's a journalism senior that does not know what he's talking about. But he writes it so that a lot of people will watch it. We don't have any number of kids in that place all the time. We'd lose our membership if we served drinks in there. They wouldn't come, they wouldn't bring their kids, you see. Then I'm on the defensive so many times, too, because, oh, when the Student Senate was having all the hassle they asked for the last five audit reports. I gave them to them, and immediately there was a resolution passed that said "we want to know where our money's going to." Well, it was right there in the audit report, the last five of them. Now, obviously they didn't understand this. It was there and it showed exactly how it was utilized. So I knew that there was another choice but to be defensive, and to try to explain. Any time you're under attack, you're defensive. I think it has to be.
SLAUGHTER: Do you think that the people that have accused you of being defensive do so because they say you're wrong, or that what goes on in the athletic department?
STINSON: I'd have to ask, "How am I overly secretive?" I don't know. People can look at anything anytime. There is no secret about anything. Now there are people who think they can protect socialities when I've said "No comment." Many times you just can't comment on things when you're dealing with personnel, whether it's a coach leaving, whether you're going to hire a new man, or what it is you're going to hire I am secretive. I really don't know.
SLAUGHTER: Perhaps we can narrow this down. Did the Sam Goldberg incident of last year hurt the athletic department in any way? Does the department in any sense of the word?
STINSON: I don't believe it hurt the Athletic Department. I think it tended to strengthen it. I'm convinced Sam Goldberg was kicked early, and radicals I was told immediately after Sam Goldberg was kicked off the team, by a graduate student, about a meeting that occurred the night previously. And he was told, at least he told me, that this was a radical movement and other than radical, and rather get athletics than anything else.
SLAUGHTER: Why do you think that is?
STINSON: He said they resented all our money, and our publicity, and we were part of the establishment. Obviously he hadn't looked at any of our audit reports as far as the money we had. A philosophy professor was involved in it and a Slavic languages professor took it from there.
SLAUGHTER: Why do you think people say you're part of the establishment? Why is it important to you?
STINSON: I'm not sure I understand, Tom. Except there has been a lot of conversation about hair this, or long hair that, you know, or making young men do things like wear tight clothing to do, but don't necessarily want to do. I think they see thousands of alumni and fans at games that get excited about this so called dehumanizing game of football that they want to change. I don't. It's the way it is, with our diversity, believe it or not, and if it is, I think they could kill that part of it, they would like it very much.
SLAUGHTER: A former member of the KU basketball team recently described the Athletic Department as a dictatorship. Perhaps that makes you a dictator. Do you think that's at all reasonable or fair? Or accurate?
SLAUGHTER: The thrust of the jock liberation movement as it was here seemed to that athletics and politics are compatible. Do you believe they are?
STINSON: I don't think athletics has a thing to do with politics. They shouldn't even be mentioned together. There's no relationship between the two. They're entirely different subjects. So I miss your point.
STINSON: Well, I'm sure I have been called that before and I'm certain some of the coaches have been called that. In some ways, that's probably a fair statement. I
SLAUGHTER: Well, let's create a hypothetical situation then, and perhaps make it a bit more real. Would it be necessary for a coach to put a stop to a athlete's running part of a group such as the Forensic Society or a group that is a known
**STINSON:** By no means. By no means.
Those are the individual's own desires and so long as he takes part in practice and puts forth the effort and does as good a job as possible of doing, we don't care.
We don't care. Again, there's no relationship there.
know who you're talking about and you've got to understand the young man. When you're dealing in a separate financial set up like we are, there has to be more dictating when you might end up making money or losing it. You'd need added facilities. Or you might end up borrowing money, although this doesn't have much to do with the individual or the particular matter that he relayed in that story. I think any young man that hasn't done too well in his particular sport might rationalize and call his coach or somebody a dictator. And if he gets to think about it. There'll always be a degree of rationalization.
SLAUGHTER: You once described me to me as a conservative Republican.
SLAUGHTER: Do you ever feel as though your political persuasions are influencing the way you carry out your job day to day?
STINSON: Okav
STINSON: Possibly. Particularly in the financial aspect. We can't do a great deal at this time.
SLAUGHTER: Do you think the association that some people have about the athletic department being part of the department relates to your political attitudes?
STINSON: Possibly. Possibly. I think they would tend to. If I am inflexible, which many times I am, in a lot of things because I believe you make certain decisions and certain choices and feel that it to have be that way. If I make enough of those bad choices, they'll replace me with somebody. When you do that sort of thing you get a reputation possibly as being if they relate that to part of the establishment or authoritative methods, then I suppose they might reflect the feelings of the athletic department and how they understand the particular director.
and how much money did we spend. So that's the way our audit report is now. It's set up regardless of how much we put into our investment. So we know just where we stand.
SLAUGHTER: What do you do to get into the black?
STINSON: You restrict many, many things. Probably you have to revert to some of that inflexibility you were talking about, or dictatorial aspects of my personality. When I had to play the role nobody's bat but mine, you see. So we have to take measures of restricting many of the non-revenue sports, travel, the number of events they have, we have to restrict basketball and football recruiting expense money, filming, that sort of thing. We are still doing a lot of these things to bring it down, and we're in the process of doing some of that right now.
SLAUGHTER; I see.
STINSON: You just have to sit down and take a whole revised look, a re-evaluation of your whole picture, make changes, and explain why you as far as your competition is concerned.
SLAUGHTER: Would it be fair to say that the economic problems you're facing aren't as great as those in the academic side of the University?
STINSON: Very much so. I believe so.
SLAUGHTER: Do you ever feel guilty because people assume that you're operating with a great deal of money? You should be diverted to building a new building for . . . a new law building, say?
STINSON: No, it does not give me any ally, and I will tell you why. I would ask you the question, "How could the money be spent on something else?" Because if we were to use money in existence, the money wouldn't be here. We generate the revenue with the people
STINSON: I'd say they're comparable.
SLAUGHTER: Comparable?
STINSON: Alumni and fans, as well as students, support you in a manner that you win or lose. It's just a fact of life and you live with it. So, I think when you win, you don't have to be as much supportive. Now, it think I will always be that way. There's a certain hard core group of fans, of alumni and students, that will always come see us whether we're winning or losing. When you hit the peaks, or go away down in the valley, we have either winning greatly or losing greatly. I think it will remain that way.
SLAUGHTER: There is the sense, whether it's actual or not, that the department has a great deal of money and expertise to really tight in the department. Is that true?
'I'm convinced Sam Goldberg was a plant at this University by radicals . . . they'd rather get athletics than anything else.'
SLAUGHTER: Do you expect an erosion in the strong support from the alumni in the school?
STINSON: That is not true. In the last fiscal year, we spent a $100,000 more than we took in. The year prior to that, we took $88,000 more than we took in. A certain amount of money went into capital impairment, but it didn't really a real business corporation where you're putting money into capital improvement. You've got a piece of property that you can possibly liquidate sometime and sell. But all the money that we put into this building, the stadium, the track, or the equipment, we put into but who can you sell it to? So that the only meaningful thing to us as a financial corporation is how much money did we take in.
SLAUGHTER: This is a question I've asked Dr. Chalmers and I'd like to get your reaction to it. On what conditions would you think that it would be necessary for this University to withdraw from intercollegiate athletics?
coming to the games. The other editorial in the Kansan about at the beginning of the year said the Athletic Department goes merrily along building buildings and new facilities and so forth, and the University has no money. If we weren't as we have the money, and if we weren't here, there would be no money generated. So there's nothing you could turn over to the University. There's no way we could build a building. If we cut out all of our grants in aid, we'd have no athletes, we'd not come to see the game. It's that simile.
STINSON: Under what conditions?
SLAUGHTER: Yes.
STINSON: Number one, I can't imagine the conditions. But I would assume that when it got to such a point where athletics were crashed, there was a crucial, where all of a sudden someone had to come bail us out—then they might, financially, take a long look at it. But even then I think athletics would be operated on and the condition, I see, that you might be pointing to.
SLAUGHTER: What's the Athletic
School doing to accept gifts
from alumni and friends?
STINSON: We accept money all the time
to the grant in aid program funnelled
them.
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