University Daily Kansan
Monday, November 15, 1971
5
get anything you want. How many hits you want? Well, if he can get two hits to sell, he can usually get ten hits to sell; and if he can get ten, he can get fifty. And if he can get fifty, he can get us a hundred. So he can get one hundred a small-time dealer, that's not the problem. Because a dealer is a dealer, and if he sells you two hits, and you say, "I want ten," and he goes and gets you ten, then he could probably go get you a hundred, you see. But we see it here, because I have agents come in my office, "Boy, you know I could make a five hundred dollar buy tonight." Buy five dollars worth. It's the same.
Malone; How many agents do you have?
Miller: Well, right now, we have only twelve full-time drug agents. That's with the KHI and the attorney general. Well, now understand, we have quite a few agents in our district. They're volunteer agents. They make a buy and testify in court simply because they have no use for drugs. Well, I'll tell you a perfect example. We've got a boy in Wichita that's made several cases for me to file for the wrongful death victims because somebody slipped his sister, sold his sister, drugs and she got in trouble over it, physical trouble, and it upset him. So he knew who it was, so he arranged to make a buy from this fellow person. Some people get a little迟 off when these things happen to people they love.
Malone: Do you think the drug problem is the major problem in Kansas? Today,
Miller: I definitely think so. It's the one that has drawn a lot of our time and it's of great import to us. Nobody can minimize the drug problem, because we see people being killed or ruined lives from it. We see personal tragedies—accidents and things like that.
Social Problems
Malone: What do you think are some of the other major problems facing Kansas? You mentioned drugs, of course. From your aspect, a legal aspect.
Miller: Now we're talking solely about criminal law, I suspect, or the enforcement of laws. Well, of course, crime is a problem. There are things that bring about crime; social problems bring about crime. Racial problems, civil injustice. Social problems bring about crime and it's pretty hard to evaluate what probably is the most serious.
Malone: Just a few that you think are most important.
Miller: Well
Malone: You mentioned civil rights, or but alas the environment? Consumer protection?
Malone: In Sedgwick County?
Miller; Right. And where the guy told me, "Me, I was high when I committed at all I been shooting speed." I can remember at least one time he fell, the fellow said, "Boy, I'd been taking amphametics and I was high, and I decided I was going to rob the place. Never done it."
Malone: What are some of the other major problems of crime in the city?
Malone: Well, you said drugs was a cause of a lot of crime.
Miller: Alcohol. Poverty. Financial problems cause people to commit crimes. Sometimes, it's just a psychological problem. You have to work, and he's not ready to accept what he can accomplish himself, so he goes and steals and robs and burglarizes. And, then of course, you have the psychopath who commits crimes on some person. Lots of different reasons.
Malone: Do you see much organized crime in Kansas?
Miller: No, and I'll tell you why. Organized crime can't unsettle unless they have cooperation of the public. See, if you don't, you're going to lose money; you can't make enough money hiding in the back room because you can't get old John off the street to fleece him. If you go down to a station here and you say, "Okay, buster, you're going to pay me off or I'm in jail," then you're going to the cops, because he's not accustomed to being oppressed like that. If you say to the cab driver, "Okay, you're going to pay me a percentage", he'll come to the law. If the can't get the county attorney to deal with it, he'll come to the attorney general or somebody.
Malone: Do you think there is any organized crime in drug activities, are they?
Miller: Well, there's organized crime in much as they've probably got a lot to do, so they're doing it. They're doing it is supplying; they're not controlling what the guy sells it for . . .
Malone : Or the traffic.
Miller: Yeah. There's no way to control it. They're selling it, but there's no way they're going to control it because, well, they might have a few guys working for
them, but if those guys are going to sell very much and are going to go out and solicit, they're eventually going to hit one of our agents and we're going to knock them off. And organized crime is not going to do that. They've been enemy-ans stuff like that. So you don't see it.
Malone: You don't think the Kansas City
mafia has tried to rush into Kansas?
Miller: Well, if they would, it would be in this kind of crime. It is to be informing a robbery gang or maybe forming a group of ushers of drugs, or stuff like that. But I don't think they're going to come in, and there's no way they're going to come in for ushers of drugs, because if we know about it, we'll knock them off. And they're not going to come in and set up a shake-down racket and they're not going to come in and set up the numbers. You know in order to have a number rackets you have to sell numbers and you're going to do that. Huh, we can't be stupid that we're not going to do that, and so if we get a hold of one, we're going to investigate it and find out who's making the policy slippes and where's the pay-off at and ... You know that there's no way that's going to work. They can't operate when they don't have cooperation from the chief of police here in Topeka, why, he's just as straight as a string. Why, anybody that would go to jail and the sheriff tell you why you don't have it here. You don't have cooperation from law enforcement because in Kansas, like
Malone: Now, you've been able to attack the cause of drugs for committed crimes. What about some of these other things, like the lawsuit that has the attorney general's office been able
Miller: Haven't been able to do a thing about poverty and I don't know what we would do in that respect. You see, this office is delegated a certain authority and you must carry out those obligations, let alone get involved in all the other areas of social welfare, and in retrospect, all the things that might have to do with crime. It's an overall problem. If we were able to handle it properly, we could do, we could be Mom and Pop to every kid. If every kid could be supervised properly, that would just cut the heck out of crime. But there's no way for that to happen. And, shoot, it's impossible for me to happen. And, I can't batsyfish with my kids 24 hours a day. But you know, that's the easy way.
Malone: What are some other possible solutions you might see? The crime rate has been just doubling, tripling, all the time ...
Miller: Well, let's get back to reality
You know that's just a lot of, properly supervising kids. But, of course, now we're going to get out of the area of social problems because I can't do anything about that. In the area of law enforcement, we need to do a lot of things. We need, of course, better education and better paid people in law enforcement, better
education and better paid people in law enforcement prevention. We need to accentuate or get about to the law enforcement people—and this has to come from the public—that we want good law enforcement. The people in a town where, you know, the police are just about as guilty as the law enforcement officials because they haven't encouraged or put the law enforcement officials on notice that they ought to be enforcing the law. So pretty soon the people to thinking, "That's what the people want and I better go along with it," and he would be doing something drugs. People can be permissive and say, well, all the kids are doing it . . . They should upgrade law enforcement. There should be more concentration in our court system to bring about speedy trials, and, of course, we could use sure use of a lot help in the penal system. We work quite closely with law enforcement on legal questions. I have an attorney assigned to the penitentiary.
Miller: Yes. . . to help those officials with the problems that come up. We tell them what they can and cannot do, how they can treat people and how they cannot.
Malone: At Lansing?
have four automobiles and when I was sheiff, I had forty. I had a hundred people working for me there; I have, probably, twenty here.
From Wichita to Topeka
Malone: How many assistants do you
have, by the way?
Malone: What kind of office budget do you have? Do you know off-land?
Malone: Do you feel better placed in the attorney general's office, though? Do you think you can do that?
Miller: Oh, not off-hand. Around a couple hundred thousand a year. It's about a third of what I had when I was sheriff of Kentucky. I was in the military, much personnel and equipment. I think we
Miller: Let me say this, Pat. Personally, I enjoyed the shiriff's office at Wichita much more than the attorney general's office. Because of the activity and action and all the people I was involved with, and, as a result, I had to take care of those people that were there. You know, it was a rewarding job, and personally it was better. I wasn't under pressures that I am now. Generally, when I would go home, I would be subject to call in the middle of the night, maybe a homicide, a fatal accident, or an emergency room visit. I go home, you know what I'm thinking about all night? What papers I'm going to file or what actions I'm going to take in court or what's going to be my theory on this law or whether this opinion is right or wrong. That's what's best for the people overall. It gets hard to sleep, sometimes. And I didn't seem to have that problem when I was sheriff. But I feel as attorney general that I am able to do more in the law enforcement industry than I can be able to do before. And I have to admit, I'm oriented. I've been a cop all my life. That's my living. When I got out of the army, the first job I had was a cop on a beat riding a motorcycle in Wichita. A deputy sheriff. And law enforcement is very different from the general, I can do a lot to bring about uniform law enforcement. When I was sheriff of Sedgwick County and we didn't have slot machines or the bingo games operating, it was pretty discouraging to see our people go out of our county, right back home. They couldn't do in our county. And you know, they're not doing that today. And any place in Kansas that I know of.
Malone; If you knew about it
Miller: We'd go over there tonight. Right. You see, Pat, what it all boils down to this: Law enforcement is most important in our lives, and you had a little experience in that and you know how important it is for it to be good and right law enforcement, just like we, when I go home at night if a cop stops me and abuses me for driving fast, I wouldn't like that, you know, I want to be treated right. Nobody is aloof from the law, so more than anything, I want it to be fair to everybody, you see. More than anything else, when you have violations of the law—and particularly I'm refering to gambling, because that's kind of a social ill, bingo, slot machines, and so on—then how do they enforce laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against certain people. So we've made violations of the law—and particularly I'm not referring to gambling, because that's kind of a social ill, bingo, slot machines, and so on—then how do they enforce laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against certain people. So we've made violations of the law—and particularly I'm not referring to gambling, because that's kind of a social ill, bingo, slot machines, and so on—then how do they enforce laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it isn't long until they're only enforcing laws against other people. If they only enforce certain laws, it's all over. No violations of the criminal code will be permitted. And number one, that means stop the bingo playing. Because that's a violation of the law." Not because it's a little old pet thing or if it was, or wasn't, it's still a violation. But, Pat, bingo was big business in some places. Some bunde were big business in some places. There were big bingo games that operated. And there are some making it up today. But, anyway we didn't care. They shut it down in the country club, and in the Moose
club here in Topeka, as well as any place else. Even out at the little dumpt, it didn't make any difference. And that's what we want to try to do. It's like drinking at the games. No way I'm going to stop that. I need a thousand cops and I only got three investigators. In a way I could police them, but I don't know what to do and make it known publicly that it was against the law. It might have been an unpopular stand and it might have cost me a lot of votes, but to be honest with you, I could care less about that. And I wrote the presidents and I told them, "Please advise the police that violate the law." And I wrote the local officials, and I said, "I want you to arrest and prosecute those that violate the law." The message was out, and I got letters from people that say, "Well, I used to take my bottle, but I don't any more. I don't agree with it but I want to do something." Law is law. There are still people that violate it, but back, there are still people that speed, too, and everybody knows it's against the drunk to speed. There's still people that get drunk; you're not going to stop it all. But you've got to take a stand. Because if you don't, the police two faced about the law. And I don't care what it is, if it's popular or unpopular, we've taken that stand.
Malone: you just mentioned that you may have lost some votes, but you didn't care about the votes. Do you see a conflict between being and being a law enforcement official?
Miller: Here's the way I look at it. what's rightn't acceptable, what I believe in isn't acceptable, then I don't want to be here. If they don't want it that way, then I should elect somebody else that will let them break the law or be hypnotical about it. It's not the way I live, and I don't need this job to live on. I've got my law degree and I know I can make more money practicing law. I let a job that paid more money than I made more money as sheriff of Sedgwick County than I do as attorney general.
The Governorship
Malone: You think of yourself more as a
law enforcement official than as a PIs
Miller: Yes. Let me say this, I'm greatly enthused about the law. And I'm not saying I'm starving to death; I make a good salary, too. My salary's $17,500 a year. But that's not important to me now. I'm enthoused about law enforcement and what's right and what's wrong and what's fair and that's the way I feel about it. And if it's unpopular, I can't help that. But you know what, Pat? I can't ever honestly believe people than good people. I don't think that's true. If there is, then we're in a sick society.
Malone: Have you thought about whether you'll run next fall for at-
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Miller: Yes. Today, I would say that I would run for attorney general. If the governor would not run for governor, and nobody would run on the Democratic ticket, and nobody else came up, and I felt that I could serve the people of Kansas when I would weigh that possibility. Then I would govern the governor has great authority and responsibilities in the area of law enforcement. He controls the highway patrol and he controls the National Guard and he's got the same powers the attorney general takes to require attorneys to inform the governor. When he was gambling in some town and the attorney general didn't do it, the governor has the authority to appoint attorneys as deputy attorney generals and say, "Investigate that activity." The governor has great authority and yet he also has the opportunity to do a lot of other things which involve problems with the problem and welfare problem and social problems and a lot of other things where he has much more authority and tools to work with than I'd here.
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"... the best thing we could do, we could be Mom and Pop to every kid."
Malone: Have you ever thought of working for other law enforcement agencies like the FBI, for example, or the Police Department? Or would you like to stay in Karsa?
Malone: Do you think you'd *stop* leading drug raids if you became governor?
Miller: Oh, I am pretty sure that I'd stop that. Because there are, probably better ways than I could serve the public. At least they would get it done, and drug raid to it get done, and nobody else would do it. I wouldn't care if I was president, I'd do it that was the only way. Okay, I'll do it.
Miller: Really, I'd like to stay in Kansas. I've been to Washington and I've been, well all over the country, and Kansas is pretty nice. You know our lives are pretty short and I don't see any reason to waste them on some place we might not fully enjoy. It's nice to go on vacation and visit friends, but no desire to live there. Or the mountains.
Malone: Do you think you'll probably stay in Kansas?
Miller: Well, you know, it would certainly depend on the opportunity and what I feel I might do for mankind or other people.