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THE UNIVERSITY DAILY KANSAN
Thursday, May 16, 1968
Kansan dialogue
Interview with a conscientious objector
By John Hill
Jack Clark is a KU student facing a $10,000 fine and five years in jail.
This would come as a surprise to anyone who knew him a few years ago. In high school, Jack was president of the National Honor Society, an excellent student, and National Merit finalist. He would probably have been chosen as "most likely to succeed."
Now he has refused induction into military service.
Last December, he mailed his draft card back to his Kansas City draft board. April 1, his induction notice came. April 15, he wrote a letter to the induction center and explained that he thought the selective service system was unfair, and that he would not go, but would make no effort to avoid arrest.
I interviewed Jack last Monday evening, May 13. Tuesday, I called him to see about getting a picture of him to use with the interview, and was told that FBI agents had taken him to Kansas City.
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HILL: What led you to take this position?
CLARK: Well, after my freshman year at Stanford University I began to question the war which was going on at that time, and I began to realize more and more that I was opposed to this war very much, and shortly after my freshman year, I joined VISTA. During my year in VISTA, I decided that I was a conscientious objector, and filed as such with my local draft board. After filing, I continued to give the matter increasing thought, and as a result of a great deal of work with Negro youth in the poverty area where I was working, I realized that the whole draft system was very unfair in its deferment policy, and its selection of who could go and could not go. It was rather distressing to see Negro youth being drafted while I sat there with my occupational deferment, realizing that not only an occupational deferment but an educational deferment, and possibly a religious deferment, were open to me, as well as all other white, middle class youth who could qualify for them, to use the system and misuse it. But these guys in the ghetto were totally helpless in these matters and were the prime people who were being drafted. It seemed totally unfair that those to benefit least from a society most often have to sacrifice their lives for it. So I decided then, after further thought, that the draft, and the entire draft system itself was totally against a democratic society, and was, in fact, probably an immoral system that should be opposed. It wasn't all right for me to accept a deferment simply
ply to solve my own personal problems. Taking a C.O. may have exempted me personally but did nothing to change or oppose that system.
HILL: In the letter you sent to your draft board April 15, the last thing you said was, "I may be contacted at the above address, and will surrender myself for arrest upon notice of the U.S. attorney to do so." You said earlier in the letter that, "I will not run from the country and seek safety in another country." What is your attitude toward draft dodgers in Canada?
CLARK: I think the whole question of the draft is a very personal matter, and I won't condemn anyone for any position they take. Some
people have circumstances which would make it extremely difficult for them to remain human and remain in this country. People with families and children might find it very difficult to go to jail. I can understand that. One has to make his own decision. On my part, I see my whole stand as an affirmation of our democratic country and my faith in it.
HILL: What is the attitude of your parents and family toward your stand, and the fact that you may be going to jail very soon?
If I didn't have faith in it, I certainly wouldn't let them put me in jail. I would leave the country, but I do have faith in this country and unfortunately I don't think I have a choice on taking any other position on this draft situation.
CLARK: Well, it's gone beyond opposition or agreement with my beliefs, and it's down to the very basic fact that they do not want me to go to jail. It's more a matter of them adjusting to that and living with the fact than whether it's right or wrong.
HILL: What is the relationship in your mind between the draft and the war in Vietnam?
CLARK: I don't suppose I would have given the thought I did to the draft if it hadn't been for the
CLARK: I don't suppose I w thought I did to the draft if it war in Vietnam. The war was the source of my thoughts on the draft. I think that the draft is, of course, in many ways connected to the Vietnamese war, in its source and in its continuation. I think right now that I would refuse induction and refuse to cooperate with the draft even if there were not a war on.
HILL: What would your attitude be if the present draft were not in existence, yet we did have a war in Vietnam? What would your attitude be toward the military or the country's stand then?
CLARK: I think it's the obligation of all citizens in a democracy to do everything they can to make their couns
they can be made them own.
try what they feel it should be. It's just that, a democracy. I would work in every way I could to influence policy in this war, and hope to stop it.
HILL: Do you presently have any kind of a deferment?
'If I didn't have faith in my country, I wouldn't let them put me in jail.'
CLARK: Right now, no. I had an occupational deferment in VISTA, but on completing VISTA, I returned my card to the draft board.
'It wasn't right for me to accept a deferment simply to solve my own personal problems.'
I assumed I would be eligible for an educational deferment if I should choose to accept one, but I stated in my letter to my draft board that I would not accept a deferment of any sort, and would not cooperate in any way, and would refuse induction when drafted.
HILL: What is your attitude toward those of us, the majority of students, who simply go along with the present system of education and then the draft and possibly being involved in the war?
CLARK: The draft is a very personal thing, and I'm not urging anyone to do any specific thing. But it is very disheartening to see so many students who oppose the war and do not want to go into the service cling to their educational deferments and allow those who are less fortunate than they to go, in a sense, in their place, and who refuse to see a moral contradiction in any way. It's kind of disappointing to see, in a democracy where you have to put a lot of faith in individuals to do the right thing, sometimes at the expense of some of their privileges or freedoms.
HILL: What is your attitude toward college deferments?
CLARK: I'm a little upset at the attitude that the present draft system will seriously curtail the educational efforts in this country. It misses a much larger point about the fact that we are in a war, and if people are committed to that war, or opposed to it, then they have an obligation to take a stand. I think that complaining that our gross national product may suffer from a war is to miss the real issue of whether that war should, in fact, go on, and whether students should cooperate with that draft or not.
HILL: You say in your
letter, "It is not the purpose of a democratic government to define national interests and then coerce individuals into occupations which would fill those national interests. What are your attitudes toward the aspect of "national interests"?
CLARK: I think the draft has much greater implications than the simple fact that it puts men into uniforms; it does that pretty inequitably. Gen. Hershey himself has stated that perhaps the main purpose of the draft is to coerce young men, through the threat of being drafted, into areas which some vague body of the government defines to be in the "national interest." Students are compelled to stay in school, and urged to go into certain occupations and areas of study and kept in certain jobs through the threat of the draft, simply because somebody has decided that it was in the area of national interest. I think the implications of this are pretty clear; anytime that the draft system has a great power here to largely define where its young men will go, what they can and cannot do, simply by the threat of the draft,
HILL: What is your attitude toward people who immediately chalk you off as being some kind
and that this is a very undemocratic way of treating people.
of radical, or somebody who is irresponsible and not a good citizen?
CLARK: I think that I'm handling the whole draft situation in a reasonable manner. I have a very basic obligation to do so. I'm perfectly willing to have a dialogue with anyone. I think it's regrettable that people cut me off without giving me a chance to talk with them.
HILL: If you are sentenced to jail for a couple of years, what are your plans in relation to all this as soon as you get out?
CLARK: It's hard to say. I'm supposedly still eligible for the draft after prison. I suppose that I'll return to school, much as I had planned to do before the whole draft. The work in VISTA interests
thing ever came up. The work in VISTA intere me very much, and I could see myself doing this sort of work again. At this moment, I refuse to see this event as either tremendously harmful or changing my life in any way.
HILL: Many students don't see all this as personally as you do, and don't see it as a moral issue involving them personally. It's easier to go ahead and take the deferment and then worry about the quickest and easiest way to fulfill their military obligation, and hope it doesn't take too long and that there is no war going on so they won't get killed. Someone like you, who does feel this personally and is following through on it, often makes some of the rest of us feel uncomfortable, like maybe there ought to be more that we ought to be thinking or doing about our feelings.
CLARK: I don't think that to take a stand like this, or to think in this manner, that you have to be especially selfless or moral, but you have to see some very practical facts about what's going on in our society today. In terms of our own self-survival, and in terms of our own democratic ideals in this country, and in terms of our own personal freedoms, we are going to decide that even if we can take a II-S deferment that there may be some other things that we have to do to make sure that we have the freedoms we want in five years when we're out of college. So I don't think it's anything other than basically taking stock of a situation and realizing some implications about the draft system and our current foreign policy and the current war, and to decide, very selfishly, to protect the country that you're part of and to protect the ideals that you like to live under. You have to take a stand and do certain things.
HILL: But to many of us, your personal commitment comes through as being an indictment of those of us who don't respond as you have done.
CLARK: Well, again I consider the act on two levels. First, I consider it a very personal thing, which I would like to think that I would do whether or not anyone agrees with me. It's something that I just feel is right, and that I must do. Second, it is a very effective way of acting and that I have an obligation to try to influence others in my society to give more thought to democracy and fellow human beings. By making a personal statement with my body, with my person as well as my mind, people will be forced to deal with this. Those close to me, those who know me, will have to question why I choose to do this. Perhaps their questioning will lead to further questioning of themselves and to some answers.
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We talked much longer, but his feelings are clear. Personally, I don't agree with much of what Jack Clark believes, but I respect very much his concern and commitment and the manner in which he is following through on his decision.
There may be people who will shake their heads sadly and with regret at this "All-American Boy" who would have been "most likely to succeed."
And these people, with this regretful attitude, will look around to others for support in their belief.
But don't look at me.