- June 21st in Wichita, Kansas, an interview with Senator UL Rip Gooch at the office of the Community Voice, the leading African-American newspaper in the state of Kansas and the region. Senator Gooch, I appreciate your taking your time to do this interview concerning your experiences during World War II. And so what we'll do is we'll just begin from the first and if you wanna talk about something else please feel free to do so. Before you joined the military during World War II, where were you living, what were you doing, and that sort of thing? Do you remember? - Oh, I can give you a story. - Go right ahead. - You really wanna real story? - Yes sir. - I was a senior in high school working in the summer of 1942 helping to build military air bases during school out term, during that summer. And the work that I did was work on an airbase for the Navy known as the Millington Naval Air Base in Memphis, Tennessee, just north of Memphis a few mile. Then when school started I went back to school and started working a second shift at a military air base, building a Army air base was to be known as the Dyersburg Army Air Base. So I worked in two military jobs building military bases during that summer and when I started to school, knowing that I was gonna have to be getting into service some time soon. I had found some information about the flying school at Tuskegee, Alabama. And I wanted to fly airplanes as long as I could remember and I thought that, apart from me, I knew of no one black that had any thought of wanting to fly airplanes so I thought, now they're gonna have these guys, they're probably having a hard time finding young men to fly these airplanes. So if I'm gonna be in the war, I'm going down there and tell them I'll fly airplanes for them. So I hitchhiked to Tuskegee, Alabama in the fall, winter of 1942 and got down there and told them I wanted to fly airplanes, only to find an opportunity to meet someone that become a person that was strong in my life until his death, Charles Anderson, who was head of the primary flight training program for the Tuskegee Airmen. He informed me of the small, he could tell young country kid that didn't know nothing, to go back to my home base. That they had no way of putting me into flying airplanes down there. I had to get in the line up of people who were trying to get in there, and the way to do that, you had to go to one of the federal government places, apply, and then they decide if they want to give you the test and all of that. And if they liked all what they could see you might get to be sent there. So he said, now, the second alternative if you get into service and hadn't gotten in, be sure to tell 'em you'd like to fly and maybe you can get into some related field after you are in. So I headed back to Tennessee from Tuskegee, Alabama and went to my little small town military representative, whatever he was called, and told them what I had found out. And they informed me, well, we don't do this testings and all that. You have to be at the federal building. So you gotta go down to Memphis to the federal building and apply. So I took off the short time that I'd been out of school for a week. I get down to Memphis, 55 miles or so from where I live, to take this test. Now the story about that is very lengthy but it all amount to the fact that I didn't get to take the test. And if you wanna know more about-- - I wanna hear the story. - Would you like to hear that story? - Yes sir, did you write about this? - I wrote that story in my book and I talk about it in my briefing. I walked down in front of the federal building and there were all these big signs and signs on everything, we need you, buy bonds, join the military. All these things, you know, as you approach. Getting you up for what you're about to be involved in. And sure enough, when I walked in this building, they had some military people who I was directed to the area of the building where they were that took care of this discussion with people who wanted to join. As I walked up, this was a person who were very sizeable physically with a military uniform on that had a lot of stripes on it and brass buttons and all this. As I approached him, before I could make a statement, you know, what you want, boy. So that wasn't unusual, I knew boys even after you're 60 years old in Memphis by white people so that wasn't new to me. But I informed him that this boy wanted to fly airplanes. And when I said that to him, he started laughing so loud until I couldn't understand why this guy was having such a laugh. Soon as he calmed down on his laughing, he says, he yelled out, there were a person in the area that was blocked off that I couldn't see, I didn't know was back there even, and he says, "Lieutenant, here's a boy out here, "tell him about how you wanna fly airplane." And I heard the voice come back from back there related to this answer, and it wasn't surprised that the fact that he said there was a boy out there that the lieutenant immediately thought there may have been somebody that didn't look like he or the sergeant. And he says, "Well, didn't you know that they have said "that we got to get them to fly?" Says, "Some of them's already flyin'." He says, "Well, what do we do with him?" He says, "We have to take the application "and put him on line to test "just like we do the rest of 'em." And so at that, well, they started to tell me about the dates and the times that I would have to be coming back for whatever. And I walked out. So I went back to my home draft board and I told them that I was ready to volunteer to go into service, because I'd been told by Charles Anderson down in Tuskegee that once I got into service that I could apply. So I figured I might as well go ahead and get in the service now. This is early in the year. Afraid that my draft number would come up. It wasn't gonna come up until I graduated in May but this is late January. So I left them with the idea that I wanted to volunteer in the service and they said, okay. And a few days later, a very short time later, I got a notice that I was gonna be going to service. I thought if I'd asked them, told them that I was ready to volunteer in the service, that I had volunteered to go into service, which I had. But there's a difference between a person's service, particularly in the identification of your serial number. It's whether you are a volunteer, are you a draftee. Unbeknown to me, the process, they just put me on the recent draft call and send me in the service as a draftee. It wasn't until I'd been in the service for probably a year that I found out from someone who was looking at my serial number. I kept telling everybody I'd volunteered and they, you didn't volunteer, your serial number don't fit volunteer. So I found out that I had just been moved up on the list and went in as a drafted person. - Why didn't they? Was it a deliberate effort or is it-- - Well, how do you explain things . I don't know. In that small town, those people handling that, I don't know if they realized that there were any special identity for volunteering. They just thought, well, this is just the easiest way we can do it. They got a job to do, just put 'em on the list and send it on in. I'm not sure that it was to do anything against me in any way, they just probably, this is the easiest way for us to do it. Just put 'em on a list, send 'em on wherever you wanna go. - Was your draft board black or white? - My God, they were white. - Okay, did they know you? Did anyone on the draft board-- - Oh, no, no, nobody knew me. - No one knew you. - No, nobody knew me. - And Mr. Charles Anderson, was he African-American? - Oh, you betcha. - And when you were hitchhiking to Tuskegee, what was it like? How did you do that? Who gave you a ride? - I got many multiple rides. I left Ripley, Tennessee on a freight train. It was what we call a float train. It stopped at every little small town between Ripley and Memphis , taking up whatever. And it took a long time but it was much faster than walking 55 miles. And I left there on the highways. And back then it was just, hitchhiking was a lot used just a short distance. Somebody just wanted to go to the grocery store, they might walk out of their house a mile down the road and the next car or truck they saw come down the road, they throw up their thumb and you get on the truck and you ride that mile down to the little store down the road. So hitchhiking, nobody knew. But that created a problem too, because many of my , many people offered me a ride for five miles and then had to start all over again. And that's as far as they were going, they didn't have any idea that this black kid was going 100 miles or 200 miles, you know. Yeah, let me take him down, his house was probably down the road a few miles. And then you get along and it's this far as I'm going , and you started all over again. - Did you get rides from African-American drivers? - Yeah, got rides from white and black. - White and black? What was Tuskegee like when you went there? Do you remember anything about it? - Well, Tuskegee, frankly when I got to what was called this town, Tuskegee, I thought that's where I was headed. I didn't know I should've been headed to Tuskegee Institute which is a few miles out of. And they had their own post office and everything, it's identity, Tuskegee Institute. So when I got to town, and I don't remember now, but I'm just sure that I asked somebody about flying and that's the direction I was given. And again, I had to take a ride out to Tuskegee Institute just a few miles out of town. When I arrived at Tuskegee Institute, I found out that's where the black aviators were. They'd done their ground school there and whatever, and they were going out to Moton Field to do their flying. So I, course I was interested in airplanes and I got a ways out to the airport and found that they flying people. This guy that was, let's say became a person I considered a friend, he was very personable. He was some older than I was. He was not a senior citizen but he was a grown man and I was somewhat a kid at 19. Found out that he was the person in charge and he give me some conversation and I never thought I, well, yeah, I thought I'd see him again because I was hopeful I'd be back down there learning to fly. But I didn't see him again then until after the war was over and we made acquaintance again, if we get to a part of another story. - How did Tuskegee Institute impress you? - Well it impressed me a lot, I never seen anything that, you know, like that except I seen another black college. We'd been to, from my little rural area, we'd been to Tennessee State at that time on a field trip. So I knew what that looked like. And I'd had a chance to observe Lane College, which was much smaller. Tuskegee wasn't all that big, but it was impressive. - The buildings I guess were built by the students at one time. - Oh, yeah, built with brick that they made the brick. - How did you view the war at that particular time? - Well at that time, you know, I think one of the things that I had had in my early bringing up was to be appreciative, somewhat, of the little things. Segregation as bad as it was, this country was the best that I knew of. If someone's gonna do something bad to this life that we have in this country, I felt like it was important. And a short time before that, just about a year before that, I guess, December 7th, 1941, when they declared the war, was my junior year in high school, and my principal took us all in and give us his thoughts on why, you know. Probably end up some of you guys gonna be, this isn't over in a hurry, you're gonna be old enough that you're gonna be in to this war. And of course some of the kids that were seniors then, well it was comin' soon they have to. So we talked about the need and about the war and I had some feel for it. I guess another close feeling I got was from another young person who was in my same class and grade in high school. Left school early, much earlier in our senior year, because his brother had graduated the year before and he volunteered and went into the Navy. This young man was in contact with his brother, conversation and discussing. He started telling me that I'm gonna volunteer and go into the Navy. Do you realize in the Navy you're on a ship and you got a place to stay and you got a place to sleep? You get in the Army, they have to have you all out in the woods and in the mud and everything. So those were some of the impressions that I had. And that was the other reason why I had very high hopes about this thing about flying airplanes. That was gonna not be the Navy on a ship, but it wouldn't be walking around in the river and in the mud. So those were some of the things that I had gotten in mind about what the war was and what it was like. - You had mentioned that you went on into, you had volunteered. Exactly where did you say you did the volunteer or where you were drafted? - Yeah, that was in Lauderdale county in Tennessee. The county seat is Ripley, R-I-P-L-E-Y, Ripley, Tennessee. That's where I entered the service, from there. - What was it like when you, the first time you remember that you put on your uniform? - Well, I think about the first time you're, they just scare the daylights out of you . And particularly youngsters never been, you know, never had this experience of being away and about from as far. And maybe I wasn't as bad off to some kids, 'cause the last few years of my life before I went in the service, I was not attached to my family. When I say my family, I mean I didn't go to my home of my family each night. For the last three years I'd been out living on and about on my own. I got toughened up quite a bit. I had a lot of personal aggressiveness and wasn't as easy as fighting as some youngsters were. But when they tell you you're in the Army now, and then they start to tell you about if you don't do this they can put you up to the firing squad, and they can do this, and you know. They just really put you in the position to recognize and be obedient. You're talking about being obedient to the Lord, be obedient to whoever it is above you in the military , or bad things can happen to you. So that was probably the first thing that got to me when I found myself in the uniform. How bad things could happen to you if you didn't do everything just right . - Do you remember what your daily routine was like when you were in training? - Oh yeah , this is my early entry story. My early entry story. I did tell 'em, saw them and they told me and I told 'em that I, they ask you about what did you enter from, what you've been doing. And of course I couldn't say I'd been flying airplanes but said I want to fly airplanes. I like airplanes and that stuff. Before you got any assignment, before anything happened. Meantime they look over your records as to what you've been doing, whatever you fit in. They noticed I was just out of school. - About how old were you then? - 19, well, we got something for you. So I got assigned to a Army air corps unit. Now this itself was somewhat special at that time because it hadn't been long before that this type of Army air corps for black. It had just begun to be a thing. But I was put in an Army air corps service squadron and sent to a military air base that had not been, well, we activated it. We arrived there and became the opening people for the base. Many people arriving at the same time. We were actually opening this base. Other words, it was new. And it had been built and had been organized and set up to train pilots in the basic part of the flight training program. And that was called the Army air corps basic flying school. And the basic flying school mean that people who are learning to fly have gone through that primary training, now they gonna take the next stage up in a different kind of airplane that will move them up line. So we opened this Majors, Majors, it's the name of the place, Majors Army Airfield. - Where was it? - Glad you asked. Majors Army Airfield was in Greenville, Texas. The first day that we were able to go into this city across the street, fully announced, of the main street which was a highway that went through town, the sign expanded. It says, you're welcome to Texas. Welcome to Greenville, Texas. The blackest land and white people are welcome in Texas. - Is that what it said? - I'm serious, it's pictures in my book. So anyway, that was in itself, if you start analyzing this a little bit to find out the past history of Greenville, Texas, you'll find out that the location wasn't an attractive place for a person of color to have been given the opportunity to serve there as military. And the treatment we got there was somewhat representational of that. Maybe somewhat because the commanding officer, who had been fortunate to be assigned to command that base, was a person who's, actually his home had been in that area. They sent him home to run that base. So anyway, that was my early time and my early assignment to Greenville, Texas, Majors Army Airfield, which was a basic flight training program. Now you get to my job assignment. - Let me ask you about that training program. Were the instructors white or were they-- - No, everything else was white until I get there. - So you were the only African-American in this training. - No, no, this squadron was formed, newly formed squadron, a service squadron. We cleaned the officers' quarters, we served them at the table with grace. The students who were being trained, called cadets, we served them their food. Prepared it for them. We did not clean their officers', they had to clean their own barracks. But the officers, we cleaned their facilities and did anything that they said very friendly and quickly. - Now did you have anybody, was there anybody black over your squadron? - To what extent of over? Starting at the top, no. But underneath that. My command was by, highest command I had was a sergeant in charge. - And he was African-American. - Yeah, but above him, above him all were white. - Do you remember that sergeant's name or do you? - Oh yeah, can't think of it, that's why. - Well, yeah, he left a big impression on you, didn't he, okay. - Yeah, no, I don't mean it that way, he did. He was a school teacher, had been a school teacher. Was a young fella that just got out of school and had got a job teaching school I guess, and got drafted in service. He had gone through college and didn't go through a officer training program, but he got assigned to officer training school after I left. I wasn't there so long. I understand that later he was selected. I knew he was on the list before I left to become a military officer. - Who were some of the other people in your squadron? Remember any of them? - Oh, yeah, we had arrived there with no training. I mean, all of us that came there in the service squadron basically with no training. So they had formed a category of people, who already in the service who had training, of color to take the lead positions to give us orientation to the military and get us, they ordered us, instructions on how to do what. One of the people that I remember that's a person of land had just been recruited from Kansas, Sergeant Gess. He was an older person, he'd been in the Army for years before the war started. He came there as our first immediate sergeant over us. And we got this other person I'm talking about who became the sergeant over us after we all had been assembled. But this group that came there first to get us started, they mostly were sent out after we had got, learned our way to the bathroom and whatever. - Do you remember some of the men who were in your group that were starting the training with you? - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Who were some of them? Not necessarily their names, but-- - Oh yeah, I remember some of the names, I remember, again, read my book . The story of some of the guys. Well, one of my guys were finally... One person I got to be close to and it lasted even until after the service was over, it just so happen, I found out that he and I both were claiming to be from Memphis and all kids that left home from out in the sticks and they got in the military, they from whatever the closest big town was. They didn't want anybody to know that they didn't know their way to the Missouri. Hell, this guy that got assigned to the same service squadron, and he was from an area closer to Memphis than from where I lived. Was an area called Woodstock. His name was Harris, George Harris. And George and I got to be pretty buddy buddies in the service. And after the war was over George and I still continued to communicate with each other. Another young man, Edgar Evans. Edgar was a post office, he ran the post office for our little unit. And Jesse Joiner. Jesse and I were real buddies and again, he's mentioned in my book. - Where did you guys go for off duty activities? - Well, we had a couple ways on weekends. Of course the closest town, that were Greenville, very small town. And if you could get a pass there you might go to Greenville. Then there were a number of small towns close around. Some of the people would get to know somebody at one of the other little towns. If you could get to go to one of these other little towns where all the GIs wasn't going, you had a better choice of selection over there . Now if you could go to Sulphur Springs or somewhere else , it's to get out of Greenville. But anyway, we went into small towns. And then the other thing that would happen sometimes when they would not be letting us off the base the command would make connection with, I don't wanna say senior citizens, I don't mean somebody was 100 years old, I mean make connection with adults who were not in the military. Maybe ministers, teachers, or whatever in there, in towns that was just a few miles away. Somebody would arrange and say if you send a bus out to such-and-such a town, we have some young ladies that would be glad to come in to the Saturday night dance. - So they were kinda like USOs of some sort? - Really wasn't like USOs, this was just kinda like one night you got invited to come to the base to the dance. And you never, if you were fortunate enough to get to know one person that you met at this dance, and it wasn't but 10, 15 miles away, you might arrange to get over to their church one Sunday if you're on a weekend leave instead of going to Greenville. And the other thing that created some noise in my book was flying out. We were not learning to fly, but this happened later when some of us were fortunate enough to get out of the kitchen and get a chance to wash the airplanes and put gas in them. Clean them up after the cadet get scared and crap all over them. But yeah, you worked on the flight line doing some service around the airplane and you got to know the instructor pilots. If instructor pilots, course these all very young people too, you know, even though they graduated in their flight training but were now instructor pilots. So they could taken an airplane and go on a trip to some town. And oft time it depend on where they were from. They, you know, might fly home for a weekend. If you make a request, you could get a ride. If the instructor's gonna go to Dallas and you wanted to go to Dallas, you get a ride right to Dallas if you get a off-base pass at that time. - And these are instructors are white, right? - Oh yeah, oh yeah, very much white. And the students were white. Everybody's white there except those black guys that was cleaning up. - Did you make one of those trips? - I made several of them, but, let's just say I made several of those trips. George Harris, I mentioned, he and I on a particular trip that I wrote about in my book, had a trip to Memphis. There were two instructors and four flight students. They could have a student fly with them when they were in the advanced formation training stage to get their additional training of flying formations. So in this particular trip, two instructors, one of the guys was from Memphis and he had one of his buddies, you know, these young guys, as I say, most of them fresh out of college and some of them still hadn't got out of college. So they were out to enjoy life. He had one, this white person, he had one of his buddies that was an instructor, and they were going to fly down to Memphis. And each one of them had two students to fly on the wing for formation training. These airplanes only seated two people, and they're training for two people. So the instructor actually, nobody would be in the airplane with him because the training was for the students to learn how to fly in formation. So all you had to do was make a request to the instructor that you ride with him. And we saw somebody post on the board they were gonna go to Memphis, George and I immediately signed up to go to Memphis with. So we flew to Memphis on this one particular trip. George had family in Memphis and of course I had a sister living in Memphis. We spent the weekend, and came a terrible hail storm. A hail storm. And the airplanes that were flying had some damage on them due to this hail storm. Course these instructor pilots, they're in charge, we signed out with them. So whatever they were doing is gonna be what we could do. They wasn't ready to leave town. We went out to the airplane and saw that they'd had some damage and immediately, this guy that's from Memphis says, "We can't get these airplanes out of here, "let's call them and tell them "we've got to get some repairs." So we got to spend a couple extra days in Memphis while we're supposedly waiting for repairs. They go stay, it give us enough time. - What did you do while you were, how did you spend those extra days? - Well , maybe I shouldn't say right now . We both knew people in Memphis, we'd already been there two days. We made the connections, I ain't tell y'all what happened in Memphis. We enjoyed Memphis a couple days right there. - Now after this training, did you go somewhere else? - Oh yeah, next door. You put all the history, you have my whole book. Let's say, let me say, I've discussed it with the base. - In Greenville? - Yeah, what I was doing. And I had gone through, Charles Anderson had told me to apply to go to flight training. And two of us, we made applications, two guys, another person I didn't mention, James Hainey from Atlanta, Georgia. James and I had both applied to go to flight school. We were thinking that we were just waiting for our name to come up only to find out that the base commander had been a part of the rejection of blacks even being in flying. He had made it clear, even though we had applied, that he wasn't going to sign us off the base to go even if. When he saw our name, our name wasn't gonna ever come up. So I found this out from another white person who had this knowledge, and when he revealed this to me I went to headquarters and made some brief remarks as to what my opinion was of this particular place and that I wanted out of there. And it didn't take long. I was out of there and I ended up where I had always said I didn't want to go, to the woods and the mud in the infantry. - So do you remember the man's name who had made it a point to reject African-Americans? Do you remember his name? - Colonel Herbert Newstom. - That was his name? - Colonel Herbert Newstom. - So and he made sure that you weren't gonna get up, your name wasn't gonna be involved in it. - Going to flight school. Which would've been Tuskegee because that was the only place. When I said to them what I thought of that place and I wanted out of there soon, I did get out. - Why did they let you out, though? Why did they let you out? - They didn't let me out of the service, they just transferred me to another, I wanted a transfer and they transferred me. - Oh, so they let you do that. - Yeah, but they sent me to the worst place I could go. To the infantry. I was out of the Army air corps altogether, and Army infantry. - So where did you go when you were-- - Camp Livingston, Louisiana. I thought it was bad, terrible. I mean, the bad end of it, Camp Livingston, Louisiana and the infantry. And that was hell. - Why do you say that? What was it like? - Like hell. - Okay, give me a little more specificity, what did it look like? What did you have to go through? - Well, it was running, walking, and crawling in the mud and the rain and woods. It was tough. - Did you, what did it look like? What did the camp look like? What did you have tents, or what do you remember-- - Oh yeah, we had tents but if you got lucky enough to be in a tent that was quite a compliment. - So where were you if you weren't in a tent? - In the woods somewhere. - But you had bedding or some sort, right? - Some sort, yeah, some sort. - So who were all the officers in that area, were they white? - The officers in that training unit were white. We had white officers in that training unit. We had black enlisted sergeants, but the officers were all white. - So everyone was African-American, you didn't have a segregated barracks, you didn't have whites over here and-- - No, where we were, where we were, the area, Camp Livingston, Louisiana had areas where white folks. But we wasn't anywhere close to 'em. We never did see any of them. - Well, what was your-- - Then at the completion of training at Camp Livingston, Louisiana, I was sent to Fort Meade, Maryland for a final combat, I thought I'd had combat training. But when I got to Fort Meade, Maryland, they give you the real live combat training where you could get killed even in training. In fact, we did have one guy got killed in training. So it was tough there. - What did you do there? What did you learn how to do? - Well, survive. - Did you do shooting with guns and all that sort of thing? - Yeah, learned to survive. If you were really getting ready, well, not just getting ready, we left there and headed to Italy where the fighting was going on as a replacement for the unit. - How did you feel about that? - Well, I felt like, you know, why did I get out of washing airplanes back in Greenville, Texas . Because really, I thought they were gonna, when I went down and, I thought they would send me at least to another Army air corps unit. I really didn't expect to be sent to the infantry. And I found out in the infantry, I had nothing to encourage me about the infantry. - So there was nothing you did kinda like about the infantry training, there wasn't anything? - No, nothing to like there. There was nothing to like there. - Okay, I'm getting the sense here. What was Fort Meade like? - Fort Meade was, we had more developed training, facilities, for your combat type thing. For instance we did combat runs in and out of buildings, for instance. We never did anything in the actual buildings in Camp Livingston. But, you know, they'd set up simulated situations and they'd have one type in there shooting in the building. And so you got to be a matter of how you time yourself to go in there and then, you know, to take over somebody's in there, or supposed to be. Whatever, if they had been. And that's where I say one guy, we missed connection between entry and shooting, we had one guy got killed when they're in there shooting in the building. So you had something of a contact type thing that you hadn't had in Livingston. But we did, in fact I'll tell you, one night at Meade we were out and it got so cold and what we had was only pup tents to go over you. And it was a freezing drizzle. And I had hung my over outer coat on the dell, a line out there and when I crawled out from under my pup tent the next morning, I took my coat up and set it out on the ground it just stood up. It was frozen stiff with moisture. You know, it made you decide whatever it is, don't know what is there, don't make any difference. There can't be no worse than this. - The guys you were training with were all African-American, right? - Yeah, and they were, no, and there were some white training instructors. Yeah, we had some white people who were in the instructor part. But these guys were, that was their assignment, training, instructing. And then another thing I included in my book, I said, you know, the hell they put you through and the way they treated you, you knew they wasn't gonna be going with you. They wasn't gonna be going with you, they gonna stay there for the next group to come to put them through the same kinda shit. And some of the guys that was there, why they would see you. - So when did you get notice that you were going to go to Italy? - I didn't know where I was going. But I only knew one thing, that was I had heard at that time where the black infantry unit was, and it was the only one, and that they were in Italy. So we knew that we being trained for replacement that we'd be going to and traded into that particular unit. So we left, Meade, went to Africa, and from Africa, just for another real brief deal there. And then sent on over into Italy and then start following the unit up. And they come in sometimes daily, sometimes every other day or whatever. Have everybody out and you see 'em pull a list out, and they call a name. If you're name is on that you knew what was fixing to happen. You're fixing to go up there and get in the river. - So you went on a boat? How did you get to Italy? - We were on a ship. But I'm talking about them guys that was up there fighting up and down that whole river. - Oh, I see what you mean. - Yeah, might be all the same, but they were in the river. Yeah, they were up there and they were following that river up. And we would move up periodically as a fighting unit move the replacement group that we were in. And during the time of our, we'd just go through routine training to keep ya somewhat fit. And you wait til your name be called. And they were calling them regularly. You always, when they say fall our for formation, you knew this might be my last day back here. I might be headed up there. But my name never got called. - What did you see while you were in Africa and Italy? - I don't get to see much of anything in Africa. We just, other than some desert land. We were only there but a few days. But then, northern Africa. But then we went on a Italian boat from Africa on over to Italy, and we started just outside of Naples and follow 'em all the way up to riviera ridge and Livorno, all the places on up to there. - When you're on this boat-- - On the ship going to-- - On the ship-- - Going from the mainland to-- - To Africa, yeah, from let's say the US to Africa. Was the ship comprised of only African-American military men? - Oh no, no, no. - So where were you-- - Well you know on this ship, it's taking replacement people for everybody. So it's probably more white folks on it than black. - So did you all stay in the same quarter? - No, no, no. Never was any, in my time in the military, wasn't never any co-mingling of white and black. - Did you all ever socialize together, maybe play craps, play cards? - Very little, very little, very little. So we started out following them up, and I was in Italy and the war was over. - What was Italy like when you were over there? What did you do? - Dirty, dirty, every place we went. Course the people had just, the war. People had just gone through and torn up things. It was a mess. - Did you see animals or anything? - See a cow, I see some, yeah, you see cow. Probably was going on down that road with a big bell or like grape juice on a two-wheel cart with a cow pulling it. A lot of, yeah, you saw that kinda thing. One of my first little stories about, we moved up and we had to camp out this close to these tall buildings. This guy, I don't remember who he was now, but probably somebody that had come out of a different environment to what I got my education. And you had that. By this time you were getting very mixed up with the kind of people. I'm talking about all black. I had people that were college graduates, people who had been teaching school. Some people had, you know, by this time this was a mixture. No general pattern of people other than black. But anyway, we look up and we see these big buildings. You know what that is? I said "No, a grain elevator about to fall down?" He says, "Man, you know, I know where we are now." Says, "That's the Leaning Tower of Pisa." I said, "What the hell's that?" "That don't mean nothing to me." Ain't you ever heard of the--nope! It's a wonder of the world. My wonder is I wonder how the hell I'm gonna get out of here . I don't care about that Leaning Tower of Pisa. Like there's another black person that somehow I guess had the education, the life that they were aware. But they, you know, we wasn't sure how we were progressing. And we got up to there and he says, "That's the Leaning Tower of Pisa." Say, "We in Pisa." We knew we were in Italy, we knew we moving up and that people relate the things that they had known or heard of. But didn't mean anything at that. - Did you ever associate with any of the local people there? - Oh yeah, every once in awhile we would for different reasons . - How generally were you treated? - Let's not talk about that . Oh no, I talk about some of them. No, they were nice to us black people. They were nice to us black people. - And did you all ever go eat in some of the areas there? - One night they were cooking something and we guys thought we were gonna get something to eat. Came through the house chasing this damn cat and trying to catch it. They come and someone said, ain't they tell us what that thing was? Is that the same thing we're supposed to eat? We about ready to be served some cat . - Times were hard, though, I'm sure. - Oh yeah, a lot of crazy things. - So what were, when you were-- - You wanna keep going on this story? Let's move on to, get off of Italy, this gonna be a long story! - I'm not through with Italy yet! So what was it like, what did you think of the people there? Were they destitute? - Oh yeah, you saw some of all of that. Every once in a while for some reason, and I can say maybe once or twice in my time in Italy, you privileged by some particular way, I don't know how it happened in this instance, to a villa home. A villa, and some of them had, their life hadn't been bad all their life. It's bad now 'cause of the, they were just trying to get out of the war, you know, and they ain't got nothing. They might have some real good cognac that they've had hid and they bring some of it out . Break out some, get some of the real stuff out. If you were fortunate it wasn't a long meal thing, but for an evening you might get to have a chance to mixing with somebody. It's a very mixed bag, of the kinda things that happened. - Was there any instruction to you from officers that you were not to fraternize with the-- - Yeah, stay away from them white women, boy. You ain't supposed to do that with them white women. - And so did you all adhere to that? - Yeah, we did it, yeah . - So how often were you in Italy, or how many years? - I was there, let's see, hadn't never thought about it in that time too much. I got to Italy in January, February, March, April, May. I don't know, I think I was only in Italy like from January to maybe September, August? No, maybe it wouldn't have been August. I'd have to go back to try to track it out of there. I was in, my memory was working right now quick like. I was in Italy when the war was over in Europe. Within a month after the war was over. And again, because of a, you check my writing, my notes or something, I'd tell you the date the war was over. So momentarily I can't think. But within a month after the war was over. I was on another big ship headed to somewhere and I didn't know where it was. - Did you find out where it was? - After the war was over in Japan, after the war was over in Japan I found out where I was headed. I was headed for the invasion of Japan mainland. We didn't know it. We spent several months making up a deal in the Pacific to invade Japan mainland. - But you were on that ship heading there? - On that ship all the time. When the war was over. The ship captain, and I believe this, commander, said we don't know what's going on. Every day we on a new day orders for the day. And when the war was over, he said, we just got announced that they dropped this atom bomb, and the war is over. Because we still didn't know what we gonna do. But we do know now what we were gonna do to start with. Which we didn't know, that we were headed for invading the Japan mainland. And a few days later we just got a new order, hate to tell you you're not headed back to the States, you're headed to Philippine Island. There we don't know what your duties are gonna be, we just know that that's where the ship's going. We got there and we found out that our duties were to clean up the Japanese there that refused to accept the fact that the war was over. And do some things here, and I left Japan-- - So you all fought for a while? - Well, you had to survive. And they didn't know the war was over. As you got in the close part where one were, you were fighting. - Did you ever have that experience? - Yeah, but they started showing up on the roadside with their hands up. - So some of them knew. - It started circulating, you know. So we were, I got there and we knew that it's just a matter of time. We had a different feeling about things. The war is over, it's just a matter of time, how're you gonna get away. My experience there, one of my experiences there that, again, that I wrote about was I had a, now again, white person that was above me and I was a sergeant. And he said, "The war is over." And he was coming back to the States for a furlough, and was going to be coming back to the Philippine Islands out of uniform on a US government job assignment. And he ran this deal by me. I'm gonna get a W-14 or something, I don't remember the number. But it was a number that he was excited about, and come back over here. Said, "I'll probably be back here for a year." It's a civilian job. Then you go back to the States. You can take your same job rating with you. He said, "You and I have worked together good." He said, "You see this job I got right now?" Said, "If you wanna go to the States "and come back, you can have this job." And then what would happen then would be a W so-and-so-and-so-and-so. And he says, "Ain't no way, man, "that you could get that in the States for years." And he say, "But once you go back with it "they can't take it away." I says, "Do you know what you're talking about? "Talking about me going all through this crap "back to my home, "and then come back in this crap again? "I might look crazy , I don't care nothing about them doggies." That was one of the earliest stupid things I did. I wrote about that in my book. One of the earliest stupid things that I did. - So after the Philippines, what did you do? - Come home and discharge. - Where did you come home to? - I got out of the military and I had a sister who was living in Memphis, and I decided I would probably spend some time with them while I sorta found the direction that I wanted to go. - What base did you come home to? - Fort Chaffee, Arkansas. Fort Chaffee, Arkansas. - Where you glad when you set foot on US soil? - You bet, yeah. Yeah, party hardy. That first night I was back in the United States was the only time I've ever been high on marijuana . We went to one of them basement parties and it was like, is that somebody there? - You couldn't see anybody from the smoke. So what was it like when you came back to, what was it like when you came back to the States? Was everything like you expected it to be? - No, and again, and that's not to do with the World War. Your interview, but that's my next part of my life story. Is after the war. - So how did you view, when you came back, what did things look like? - Well, you know, I hadn't been gone that long, but I had sort of forgot how really bad things were, a little bit, you know? And when I come back and found to be like as it was, it really put, and you'd had that feeling all what you're going through with, and all the time you're thinking about your country. And then when you got back and you started getting into the conditions that pointed out to you that this really isn't your country, you know, to the extent that you're welcome everywhere. And that's when some other things started to happen in my life, that some of them that I got into, it wasn't that-- - What were some of those unpleasant settings that you saw yourself when you were in Memphis visiting your sister? - Well, the first one again, I tracked it down, read my book, it's right there. My first one was an incident I got in to with this bus driver. - In Memphis, or? - Well, just out of Memphis. Ordered me to the back of the bus. - You weren't wearing your uniform. - At that time I had not officially put off my uniform. I was back and out of the war but I had just gotten back. This was a few days after I was back. - And you were in uniform? - Mm-hmm, and I had my military bag that we called our duffel bag with all my active military stuff and everything in it. In there I had a weapon that I was supposed to have, I was authorized. I took it away from a Japanese in the Philippine Islands and I still have the papers that the government give me to brought it home. But that wasn't a pleasant situation. - So what did you say to him when he directed you to the back of the bus? - Well, I told him I wasn't going there. He made the mistake of putting his hand on me and that wasn't good for him. Wasn't good for him. - So what happened? - I whooped his ass. And not only that, I made it very clear to him that I had a German Luger and I could kill him in one minute. - So what did he do? - He got back, I told him to get his ass back on that bus and go. And he did. - And you sat where you wanted to sit? - No, he took off on the bus. I went and called George, George came over and took me out to my aunt's, the way I wanted to go. - So they didn't call the police on you or anything? - No, God no. No, they didn't call the police, they were just scared. They were scared the police, that somebody was following me. I told them that the guy's on the bus and gone, but they scared to death when they, said I was in big trouble. They wanted to get out and leave here, go somewhere else, don't be around here, they looking for you. - Was that true? - That was my, no, no, no. - Why wasn't it true? - Nobody knew anything about it except him, me. And you know, on the bus, this was a cross-country Greyhound bus. And he was headed to Chicago. Somewhere, Louisville, I don't know, wherever he was going. My aunt and her husband, they found out that I'd, they thought I was in big trouble. - What'd they want you to do? - Well, they didn't know. As I said, they were afraid-- - Did they want you to leave? - They were afraid for me being there. They thought somebody knew where I was, they didn't know what to do. So I went back to Memphis after a couple of days. I went and visit my dad and then went back to Memphis where my sister was. But then, that was that incident. Like a month, not more than two months later, probably less than two months later, the next thing that was, you know, a real heart-breaker. I decided that, have you cut this off? - No, did you want-- - No, no, I don't care if you want it on there. Probably the next real heart-breaker came when I had been out for a while. Sort of juggling things around to what, you know, what am I gonna do with my life? Because the one thing that still was burning that I was so disgusted about the fact that I didn't get a chance to fly them airplanes. I don't care what I think about it, but I thought about, might wanna be a dentist. Thought about, you know, what am I gonna do with my life. Might wanna be a veterinarian. But what's it like to fly an airplane? Then come a newspaper and this ad in this newspaper, flight training for veterans at this little airfield. And I wanted to learn to fly. You closed the air hole there for a bit. - Yeah, I know! - I wanted to learn to fly. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it, but at least, I don't know what I'd do. I will have satisfied the fact that I know I can fly one of them airplanes. This is a chance for me to prove to myself and everybody else that all I needed was an opportunity, I could fly one of them airplanes. And so I took off out to this facility, and go out there. Says I saw the ad in the paper, that I'd like to sign up for their GI training. Well, there were any number of GI trainings going on. There's GI training on how to cook, how to do anything and everything, and somebody had a training program that they could make some money off of with veteran training, you know. You go to law school or anywhere between becoming a medical doctor to being a truck driver. You know, GI training. But this was an ad to learn to fly an airplane. So that appealed to me. I went and walked in, thinking that I'm gonna start learning to fly airplanes and satisfy this feeling that I have. I might not ever use it for anything else, but I'd know how to fly and airplane. And these guys informed me, indirectly, that they didn't want me involved in this flight training school. It's a white folks school. - How did they convey that to you? - I'm gonna try to use the same words that I used in the book. I told many people that most of the things I said in there was true, that's the reason I can say them over again. He said, you know, there was a man come through here the other day and says he landed here and got some fuel, in an airplane, and says he was going up to Nashville and said they had a flight training school up there. Well, you got a flight training school right here, right? He say, "Why don't you go up there "and see if maybe you can get in that school?" I think that the way he revealed it to me, something along that line. - So they didn't confront you dead on, by saying-- - Get out of here! - Yeah, right, because you're black, right? That was not said. - No, but he made it very clear they didn't need me in that school. - So how did you feel, what did you do? - I went on up to Nashville a few days later and got in flight school and I've been flying for 60 years, 20,000 hours, and did everything there is to do in aviation. - Well, when you went to Nashville, what were your expectations? Why did you think? - I expected to find black folks and get along with them . I knew how to get along with black folks. - Yeah, but I mean with your flying? Was the training hard? Was it-- - No, no, just like I had thought it would be. - What'd you like most about it? - Just liked all about it. That's why my life has been so good. Spent all these years of my life getting paid to do something I'd pay somebody to let me do. - So after you did the flight training, then what did you do? - I thought we were on the war? - Yeah, well aftermath of war counts. So then what did you do after the, because how long did you go to the flight training school? - I ain't gonna tell you my book story, you read it. - Okay, all right, let's-- - I done did the war review with you. I got certified and went down to Tuskegee and got certified pilot and came back and I walked in, and Tom Hayes, who owned the Birmingham Black Barons was setting there and he wanted somebody to fly with him. And I flew with him that summer and came back to Tennessee State that fall and started school, and I opened my own business. It's all there, my whole life. - How did you get to Kansas? - Give me $20. - Okay, I don't have $20, c'mon! - I'll go get you my book so you can read it. - What was your motivation for coming to Kansas? - My motivation for coming to Kansas? I was out of a job and my wife, I didn't want my wife to have to be taking care of me and I needed something to do until the next. I was doing agricultural flying and it's seasonable, and there's nothing to do. There's somebody there in Nashville recruiting people to come out here to Boeing to work on the airplanes. Well, I'd go out to there and work for a few weeks. I'd be back home. And that was March, 1952. I had no idea I'd be here more than 66, I didn't think I'd be here six months, no's more that. - What was Wichita like when you came here? Read your book, I know. But what was it like? Just give me some general impressions, 1952. The African-American population had grown significantly since it had been, I mean, you wouldn't have know that necessarily, but since the '20s and '30s. And the aircraft industry was the motivating-- - Just a temporary job. I didn't think it would last more than six months. - And so from there you engaged in politics. - That was a long way between there and politics. I'd had my own business for many years, before politics. - What do you think about, in terms of your relating your war experiences to your career experiences after the war? Do you see a relationship, or how do you see? - Well there's so many things that I look at. I think about the fact that I turned out to be what I know was a hell of a good pilot, and I didn't get a chance to do it for the military. I proved that had I had that opportunity, I would have. That's the first thing that got done. My idea of trying to survive. I had to learn a lot about how to survive in a country that you fought for thinking that you would have an equal opportunity to succeed, and even after that, even though you didn't get what you preferred doing, you were denied doing what you wanted to do while you were there but you did what you had to do because that was your duty. But now you're back and you're still being denied the opportunity to succeed in the way that is your interests. That continues to face you. - When you came back, did you ever remember anything that made you think that men who were white who had also gone to war had changed their attitudes about race relations or had a more favorable attitude toward race relations? Did you observe or experience any of that? - No, no, I can look back over it today and think about, had, we had President Truman, somebody that decided that this isn't the right thing to have done, until the Roosevelts, somebody, whatever. Declared that this is a war, we gotta fight for our country. And we're gonna win it together. I think if we'd have fought together in that war, we'd have come out of that war more of a united group. I think there's a lot lost because the decision wasn't made, this is a fight for our country, we're gonna fight it together. If you're going in here, you're going in the war together and fight together, you're gonna die and bleed together. If they'd did that, I think we would've come out of that war with this country so much nicer country for everybody. I think that so much that we got back and continued, I'm talking about World War II. We got back and continued with this fashion, when with that we'd have been past that. And what we could've done for this country during that time where everybody's doing their best, being the best that they could be. - In other words, that experience, if they had fought the war together, there would be no need for the modern civil rights movement. - I believe that would've. - Are there any other comments you would like to talk about or say about your war experience? - No, no, I have to admit that I'm glad that it wasn't necessary for me to get in the mud. But I was ready to go, I was ready to go. And I'm sure glad we never had to invade Japan mainland. That's where I was next and I was ready to go. - After the war have you joined any veterans' organizations or engaged in any other activities, of veterans' activities? - Yeah, yeah I was in American Legion. I joined it for awhile, I'm not active now. - But you did okay, what did you like about the American Legion? Why did you join? - Oh, probably joined because it had a active black place of getting together with black people. Just like any other social club, black people getting together. - Were there other World War II veterans there? - No, no, this was after Korea and Vietnam. - So there weren't too many of you that had experienced World War II. - Well when I first joined, there were quite a few. But by now it isn't, they getting scarce. I'm talking about, you know, 30 years ago. That was quite a few World War II people then and active in American Legion. - So when you all got together in your private social circles in-- - We talk about the crap that we went through. - Did you all talk about your experiences at war? - Yeah, that wasn't all the conversation. - Sure, I understand. - But I know it would come up. - Well we appreciate all your time, and if you wanna add anything else, you'll let us know. And we're gonna read the book. - No, I've over gone war into all the civilian stuff and everything else. - Well the war has everything to do with civilian. So our next goal, of course, is to go back and review other aspects of your life as well, Senator. And we do appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Senator. - Oh, thank you. - Thank you.