- Thank you Mr. Harry Gumby for coming here to have an interview with us. We appreciate it a great deal. This is December the 6th, 2011. This interview is taking place in Mr. Gumby's home in Grandview, Missouri. Mr. Gumby, let's just start out with some basic questions and asking some of your background. Where did you grow up?

- I grew up in Mount Holly Springs, Pennsylvania. That's a small town. Oh, maybe, 1,100, 1,200 people in the whole town where I grew up. It was a rural area. Between Harrisburg, the capital, and Gettysburg, which of course was famous for its civil war years. And 90 miles from Washington, D.C.

- What schools did you go to in that area?

- Yeah in that area I went to the Mount Holy Springs school, which was nine grades. Now back in those grades, when you finished the ninth grade, that was all the schooling that you got. Unless you went to another town six miles away called Carlisle. But there was no bus transportation or anything, you either had to hitchhike or walk, or live with a relative in there. But when you finished the ninth grade, you were finished schooling in that town, and the requirement was that you didn't have to go to any more school. So, I did that, and I completed high school while I was in the military.

- When you were at the school, was it racially integrated?

- Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes. It had been racially integrated about, let's see, my older sister, who was 12 years older than me. So she was the first or second black to go to that school. To go to the intermediate part. Up until then they had a small school that they called the colored school in the town. That's where black people went to school. So I would imagine, let's see, she's 12 years older than me, so...

- Yeah, so it was probably the first part of the century they began--

- First part of the century, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it would have to along that.

- What kind of work did your parents do when you were growing up?

- My daddy was a farmer. A huckster. We had a big garden. And we planted vegetables and everything like that in the summer and sold 'em. And that was part of our income. Then he worked as a boilerman at a paper mill. Mount Holly Springs had two paper mills, and they were located there because of the pure water. Everybody drank mountain water, it ran right out from under the mountain and all that, so they caught this water and they made this paper. So he was a boilerman there. And what he did was stoked up the boilers that ran the plant. And then he did that for, oh, a long time, and then, later on, I guess when I was somewhere around 12, 15 years old, he got a job at the state capitol in Harrisburg, as a janitor. And he kinda worked there until retirement.

- Did your mother work outside the home?

- Mom worked, did day work outside the home. And then she also took in washing and ironing. All the ladies did around that, that the way of the town. And then she, we had the job of cleaning the Mount Holly Springs library. And I was one of the ones, when I go by that place now, I tell the children, I said I don't even wanna look in there I dusted so many of them books. And it was my job to keep the books dusted. And so mama got paid for cleaning up the library, and us boys, I had five brothers, we all, off and on, worked in there. And so we helped her. But she was a domestic and wonderful person. And the really, the educator of the family. Mama went to school with the Jim Thorpe people. Way back. So she had a pretty good education.

- When you say she went to school with the Jim Thorpe people, what do you mean?

- Well, yeah, Jim Thorpe was a Native American who lived in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and went to the Indian, the Native American school on there. And so when mama came along, that's where they went to school too.

- Was your mother also Native American?

- No, she was black. No, no, no. No, she wasn't a Native American.

- So Native Americans and blacks were attending the same school.

- Same school, uh-huh, yeah. And that school is still there in Philly. The building is still there.

- Isn't that right? Now what church did you--

- We went to, well, went to two churches. We went to churches all day. In the morning, dad was a Methodist, mom was a Baptist. So in the morning, we took off to the Methodist church. And then we ended up at night at the Baptist church. So we were in church just about all day. Well that was your recreation back in those days, you know, you didn't, you know, you're either classified as a good boy or not, you know? So you were good if you went to church, did what your parents did, stayed out of trouble, that sort of thing. Of course we did that. Now my brother and I, the church is still standing. I was up home in October. And the stove that I used to stoke as a boy, 11, 12 years old, is still in that church. The church is closed now, 'cause all the people, I would imagine, well, when I grew up in the town, there may have been 150 blacks, but it's down now to, well, just mostly my family there now. And so they go to church in Carlisle, which is six miles away. And the church building's still standing there and I was telling my sister, when I got back home, she was saying that somebody wanted to rent the building and do something with it, I said, well you should've told me that while I was there. So they're gonna get me in touch with this guy and I'm gonna see if we can turn this old tour, if I get him to, you know, it needs a lot of fixing up and things like that.

- What was the name of the church?

- It's called the Mount Tabor AME Zion Church. Mount Tabor was one of the great mountains in the bible. And the Mount of Olives, Mount Mariah, Mount Tabor, they're all in the Old Testament. And so that's where that church is, churches was named after, especially African-American churches. Always carry that name.

- And this is Mount, this is AME Zion.

- Uh-huh, AME Zion. Yeah, now the difference between, see, and I found this out later. The blacks had three different Methodist churches. The AME Zion which was mother church. The ME, and the CME. Okay? And I found out later, while traveling through the south, about the ME and the CME. I didn't know about those while I was growing up in Pennsylvania. It was all AME. And we had our own presiding elder, our own bishop, and all that sort of thing.

- What was the name of the Baptist church? The Baptist church was Shiloh, which was partially built by my grandfather. My mother's daddy. Yes sir, and he was quite a veteran, and Ros has got some history on him too. He was a soldier way back then and fought for the country when them guys, way back there. And came to Pennsylvania. And settled up there. Was a mason, and his name is really on the wall of the church. His name was Parker. And Ros has got a pretty good history on him. So we went to Shiloh in the afternoon. Shiloh Baptist Church. It's still standing, it's still flourishing. Oh, and it's gotta be, gotta be years old, you know. 'Cause my mother worked there. And mama lived to be I don't know, 86 or something like that.

- Anything you remember about going to school? Did you enjoy anything in particular?

- Oh yeah. I enjoyed school. Let me tell you this, and I found this out. Okay, I went in the army with a ninth grade education. I was better equipped than fellows that I met who had completed high school. And some of them a couple years of college. We learned something in those nine grades. In those years when we went from one to nine. And we had, my worst subject, my hardest subject, and I still don't like it, was algebra. But I had two brothers who were so good at math, algebra, geometry, trig, and all that stuff, that they were tutors while they were students going to school. Isn't that amazing? One finally became a chemist. He has a Ph.D, yeah, he's still living. He's in Rochester. And the other became a school administrator in New Jersey. And both of these guys, I'm telling you, they were wizards at this stuff.

- Can you give, who were your siblings? Who were your brothers and sisters?

- Okay, my oldest brother. We were all one family. All had the same mother, same daddy, mama never was mad 65 years before mama passed. She passed first. Now my oldest sister. She finished the ninth grade. Then she went to high school in this little town called Carlisle. And she went to live with a relative, because they had asked for residence. And some of the other people had gone to become teachers and nurses. And back in them days they had a school called a normal school. I don't know what it meant, but they called it, Stevensburg normally was a teaching school I think it was. So they went to the school and she come out of this normal school, and became a nurse, whatever professional. You were considered to be in tall cotton with a short hose, they used to say. It's way up there, you know what I mean? And so my sister, Mary Evelyn, she went through all of this. Smart as a whip. And then, she had 12th grade. Raymond, the next oldest, only went through the ninth. And he did well when he got out of school. Somehow he missed the service, I don't know how he missed it. But he became sheriff of one of the counties there. Did well. Then I had a brother George, who was next. He was a, he could run. And back during those days, years ago, they had a black guy named Jessie Owens. And if you know the history of Jessie Owens, he stood before, you know, he beat the Germans in the relay. And Hitler never forgot that. So from then he didn't like black soldiers, so that got, traced itself into the army, and so, when the black soldiers went to Germany. Well they gave the Germans a tough time. Tough time, because of the Jessie Owens thing. And you know those things where, you know, somebody tells a tale and it carries on and on and on. And gets into the culture and never gets out. But George was a runner. Oh he could move, I tell you true. I saw him myself. Back in those days, during the Fourth of July, we used to light firecrackers, it was fun. And we had a firecracker, like four or five inches long. And they'd light that firecracker. And George would see how far he could run before that thing went off. And I'm telling you they clocked him as being way away from that thing. He could get down and move. Well, we think that the running and, you know, he died young. We think the running is what killed him. And then my brother John, who went in the army. A year or so before I did. Did well, but he came back out, then went to government, worked for 43 years. For the government. And he retired. And then my other brother Ed was one with the educator in New Jersey, and William, who is the industrial chemist, worked for an outfit called Bausch and Lomb in New York. And he was in on the, he was on the very first, what do you call them little rings you used to put in your eyes?

- Right, I don't know, that's what I thought you were gonna do, the eyes.

- With that. He was one of the guys that helped make the first ones of those things.

- Right.

- Now I'm telling you, that's really getting down, you know?

- Yeah, contacts.

- Yeah, yeah, contact lens.

- Right.

- And then Bausch and Lomb made a lot of stuff. Lavatory stuff and high tech equipment, all that kind of mess. And so he worked for them for years. And then...

- Where did he go to school?

- Oh yeah. He went to school at Penn State. Well he went two schools. He finished the Mount Holly school. Three schools, then he went to Carlisle to the high school. Now, by the time William came along, they had transportation to go from my little town over to Carlisle. Which was five or six miles. So he had a way in and out back home. So he went to school there. Then he went to a college called Dickinson College, which is in Carlisle. Old time well known law school. He graduated from there. And then he went to Penn State, up in state college. That's why I have a grandson up there going to state college now, who's going after a doctorate.

- In Penn State.

- Yeah.

- What field is he in?

- He's clinical guy, clinical psychology, I call him a head shrink. and I tease him about it. He says, gramps, no you know, he said, I'm really not... I said, well, I told him what I said, you know. I said we used to take all the clinical psychologists, the head shrinkers. I said we put them in the front line when we were in the army. He said now gramps, what'd you do that for, he said, you're telling me the truth? And I said, yeah, I said, well, I said because, you know, we ain't got no time for him to put us through a clinical course when the enemy's shooting at us. So we put him up here to make sure we do where he was. So we get a big charge out of that. I don't really that was done, some of the guys said it was, but, I don't think it was done. But anyhow. William worked there, and then he got tired of that. And you know what that guy is doing now? He left all that, and he just kind of walked away. I guess he got a pension and all that from it. But he runs a big, he runs a senior citizens' housing place.

- Great.

- Isn't that something?

- Yeah, that's great.

- And I said well now William, how can you, oh, he said, I'm having a ball.

- Well that's great. He knows what they need.

- Yeah. And he works religiously at that thing too. But anyhow, that's the side of the boys, the girls did well too, and some of them were teachers. And worked in the government, things like that. And the war, when it came, World War II, you know, I guess made a lot of us, took us away from the domestic scene. And the drudgery, working in somebody's kitchen. Or on somebody's farm. And we got to get out and get into an industry, and do some things and see some things that otherwise probably wouldn't have happened.

- Now how did your, you said your Father earned a living from being a huckster. Did he maintain the farm throughout his life, or...

- Let's see. We stopped farming, let's see when we really stopped farming. I guess, when the war broke out. Because all through the depression, we raised vegetables and sold them. And up to about 1941 or so, along in there. I guess we kinda kept things rolling. And then from then on, you know, we got rid of the, had a mule and a horse. And so Ted, somebody talked him into raising guinea pigs, for laboratory research. So he took off doing that. Which was an awful thing, you know, and we, you know, when we went home, we said, man, what are you doing full of them lice, you know? And them rodents. And he said, oh, he said the government needs them, so he was raising them. They were holding also, we'd sell them. So he did that but he still, by that time, he had been working I think in Harrisburg. And he worked, oh he worked up until he was like 85, you know, all this kind of stuff. He just couldn't quit working. But that's kind of the way he made it work.

- Did you all sell the farm?

- No we still own it.

- You still own it.

- Still own it.

- Are they still working it with vegetables?

- No it's all in grass and woods.

- Is the house is gone?

- The house is gone, yeah. And then later... And we found all kinds of things, we thought. The house has been down now about five years. The city said we either had to restore it, because there was nobody there to live in it, we had built a new home. And that's where my sisters live, now they live in a new house. But we still own the land and everything.

- So when you said World War II came, tell me, what is the first time you, first memory, earliest memory you have about the war, hearing about the war.

- The first time I paid attention to the war was on December the 7th, which is tomorrow. I was at my little girlfriend's house. And they said, Pearl Harbor has been bombed. And I said, what in the world is Pearl Harbor and where is that? I never heard about no Pearl Harbor. Oh I knew about Hawaii. And that sort of thing. And I was pretty good at geography and that sort of stuff. And I knew, you know, that the war was raging, all that, but it hadn't really touched us. Very few of the people around the little town where I was had gone to war, until, to the army, until, of course, we were attacked by Japanese. Then it broke wide open. So then, it was on a Sunday, and I was chasing this little lady. And so, I had known her for some time, and all this sort of thing, I said well, Pearl Harbor. So then she said, well, I guess you gonna have to go to the army and I said oh, no, I said what would I do in the army? I said I'm not a soldier, I'm a farmer. And she said, oh yeah, well. That lasted two years. Let's see, '41 they attacked it, and '43 I was in. And I was in the service. And I tell you what, I finished school and everything, and I was going to work, now the neighbor was building a great big depot down there. And they said, if you work at this depot, you were supposed to be, you were war something. You were defense prone. That was your job. As long as you stayed there. So, cocky, you know, and a young cocky, mouthy fella, you know. The boss and I, we had a little rout. And I told him, well, you know, I don't have to work here. I can do this, do that and the other. And he said, well. He said, no, he said you have to stay right here, he said, if you leave here, he says I'm gonna turn your name in. And he said they're gonna draft you. And so I said, well we'll see about that, and one word led to another. You know how boys can be cocky and mouthy. But sure enough he did, I left, went to another job, and two weeks later my notice came. And I was drafted. Left home. Went back a couple of times. Well, the first time when I got out of the service, I went back home, and everybody else was getting out. So all the jobs was taken up, everything like that, I didn't think about going to school. I said well I think I'll go back in. And I had gotten a little bit of rank by that time, I was a staff sergeant. I had four stripes. So somebody said, why don't you come on back and, and you'll study and all this and everything, and maybe we can get you a commission, and give you a re-enlisting bonus, and all that kind of stuff they do when they wanna entice you to do something, you know, and so, you kinda fall for that, you know. And so I did, did all that. And in the meantime, when I was in there, they sent me down to Texas. And I met Miss Gumby, she was going to school. Well, it so happened down there that the soldiers, a bunch of soldiers, just before we got there, had came in there, once or so before that, and went downtown and tore up the town. So, people in uniform weren't very well liked around there. Well I was always a fella that kind of hung around the church and all this sort of thing. So I said, well, I'm gonna go to church. I can't deal with no chapel. So I'll go to church in town. So I always used to be a pretty good singer back then, and so I got together four or five fellas, and we formed what we called a quartet. There were really five of us. And I was the manager. So we took this five group of fellows around town, and we'd go to sing soul in these churches. Well the word got out, you know, said hey, them boys must be alright, you know? Go to church and they sing, and the crowd follows them. And I said, well, we just get them in there. Well it so happened that this company, you know, the little lady that I was chasing, I tell the children this all the time. I had an eye for her, so being in charge, we sang at her church more than any place. So her daddy, looked at, you know, he was the minister. So he kind of fronted for me, you know, and he saw really that I was alright, just like anybody else, I was in uniform, you know? And we all were. They had so many people in uniform back then, it was just, oh, it was something else. And so one thing led to another, led to another, and then, they sent her on off to college, you know. She went to a black college up at Marshall called Bishop College, I don't think it exists any more. But she had two years of college for that, and so they tried to get me to go to school, I said, I'm in the army, you know, I'm a soldier, I can't be doing no schooling, stuff like that, you know? And I said, you know, I just get along like I'm going now, you know? And did that. Lo and behold, in her second year up there, we jumped up and we get married. And we were married 58 years before I lost her. And she's all that I had, and she had and I was, she was the only wife that I had.

- Tell me, how would you describe, in Mount Holly, Mount Holly Springs. How would you describe race relations in the community that you were growing up in?

- Oh, we were separated. Let me tell you about that. And I tell people this all the time. We lived across the tracks. We lived on the east side of town. Most of the blacks lived on the east side of the town. There was maybe two or three families that lived on the west side of town. But they had been there so long that, you know, everybody knew them. They were just kind of integrated into the town. But over where we lived, I was telling Ros the other day that she still can't get actually what happened. The street leaving the main part of Mount Holly, coming over from where I lived, where we lived, was Pine Street. And then when it got, when it turned and came down to where we lived, they renamed the street Mountain Street. But they called it smokey and old. Okay? And so she said well dad, what do we do? I said well I don't know. It was long before I was born, I guess, when it was done. And so... Then later on they really, they renamed the streets, and of course, it then became Mountain Street all the way down. Well now. Over where we lived on the east side. When I left home to go to the army. We did not have electricity. We did not have a telephone. We did not have gas. Natural gas. We did not have water. None of those. None of those things, none of those things did we have. The water came to the end of Pine Street and stopped. And from then on, where the black people lived, we didn't have any. So while we were in the service, we started fighting for what we felt we should have. And we went to the state health department. We jumped over the city, the county, and everybody else. And said, we need water on our street. We need electric. And we need everything else that everybody else got. Okay? And as a boy, we used to get our water from these springs, you know, and we'd haul it. In big cans called a milk can, or a large can. And we'd get these cans of water. Then we had a cistern where the water ran off the roof into the cistern. And we used that to wash clothes in. But we didn't drink it, or use it for consumption. We used this other water. So... That was kind of the fault of segregation. The other was, we were... We went through economic segregation. Whenever they wanted somebody to do menial tasks, they'd come over on our street and get 'em. Dig ditches, clean toilets. Anything like that, okay? The town was primarily Republican. It was Republican. And there was one or two people around there that ran everything. Now this is an interesting thing, this is gonna slay you. You could not get a loan, a black person when I grew up. You could not get a loan from a bank in Mount Holly Springs, unless, you were signed for by a white person. Okay? Even though we were property owners. I think our property wasn't worth much. Property that nobody would buy, I don't know. We owned our land where we lived. We actually owned, we had three acres, three and a half acres, and we owned it. Had titles to it, had deeds to it, everything. Good amount of money. Listen to this. Mama was such a friendly person, that I don't know anybody in town that did not like her. At least nobody I'd never heard of. They would come and consult her on different things that happened in the community, things like that. And she would sit and talk to 'em and all this kind of thing. And when any, the other black boys in town got in trouble or something like that, they would come over to Miss Gumby and say, well so and so and so and so and so and so. And she said, well, you know, he's alright, he's just like, you know, any other boy, you know, he's mischievous. You know, and gets into this and in that, and said, long as he hasn't done anything illegal or harmful, you know, let him go, you know, okay. Alright. In the town, there was a family, there was a pharmacist named Jay Raymond Snyder. And his wife's name was Edna Snyder. My oldest brother was named from him, his name was Jay Raymond Snyder. See the connection? One of my sisters was named Edna Snyder. In other words, when mom had these babies, these ladies, these people, she named them after these people. She admired them and they admired her. Okay? Mr. Jay Edward, if we needed a loan, I don't remember my dad ever borrowing any money, but had, but if he did, Jay Ed would sign off for him. Now that was, that's real, I don't know what you would call it.

- And did your mother work in their home?

- Yes. Yes, she worked for them. And they, not only that, but, they always kept her in a job. She always had the job, bless her heart, she did, was she was doing ironing, washing and ironing. And all the prominent people, men, brought their shirts over to that lady, brought shirts for mom to do up. So she was good at that. And didn't get nothing for it, I guess, a shirt back in them days, she got a quarter, maybe, for doing them.

- Well that was still a lot of money.

- A lot of money back then. A lot of money back then. But that's how we kind of grew up. So, we were, my mom always taught us that, you know, better days would come. And that this thing would equal out. And that we would have to endure some hardships. And she used the bible and everything, you know. Paul, for example, she a follower of Paul. Paul would do great hardships. And went through a whole lot of stuff. And so, we would talk. Don't go around with a chip on your shoulder. Things will change, people will change. And the other thing she taught us that when we do get in a position where we can do like we've been done, then don't do that. 'Cause you know how it feels. Well, that kind of stayed. I tried to teach my children that. And I noticed my children tried to teach theirs that. It's kind of come the way with some of the grandchildren, you know, it's entirely a new day. And they're influenced by the culture around them. And you know how it is.

- So, you did not, although you went the school, which was integrated, did you have any classmates who were white, that were friends?

- Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes. Let me tell you what happened. They were friendly, until it came to the point where they had a party, and I wasn't invited. Okay. And you could see that that was the parents. Even though they, and later in years, you know, when I went home. I was a highly decorated veteran. And when I finally went home, I'd go to see some of my classmates and people like that, you know? And they said oh, man, they called me by my nickname, they said, oh boy, sheriff. And would even feel sorry, said, you know. I said, oh man. You know. I said the apostle Paul said, you know, look forward, never backward. Don't look back, those days were gone, it's a new day, you know. Let's certainly treat these people that you're dealing with now in a way you would like to have been treated. We had one family there that really later on became really really good friends of my sisters. And they were teachers, and they had come up from Florida in the early '40s. And late '30s, early '40s. And Sue and I were in the same grade and everything like that. And she used to look off of my paper and get answers and things like that. But when they had birthday parties, things like that, even at recess we all played together. But it was just, where, you know, the boy and the girl, the white boy, the black boy. It just didn't gel.

- When you were growing up, did you ever hear anything about race riots, or civil rights protests?

- Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. We knew about that. And I'll tell you how we knew about it. The Philadelphia paper came out every week. And it was called the Philadelphia Afro-American. It was a black newspaper. And they had two of them. And one come out of Philadelphia, one come out of Pittsburgh. And of course, they pretty much kept up with the story, so we knew about it. But we didn't really, you know, it's like... You know, you hear about the wind and all that kind of stuff. But you never know about the wind until you feel it.

- Right.

- See what I mean? So it was farfetched. And we used to laugh. In other words, I was cautioned when I went to the army. They said listen, when you get out in Virginia. Said remember, you know, you can't pass a white person on the sidewalk. If you go on the sidewalk, and a white woman comes up to you, you get off and walk in the street. I never had to do that. You know? And I never seen anybody that did it down there. I got out into Maryland and Virginia, different places, and went on about my business, you know? But it was kind of--

- So you learn your things from the Pittsburgh Courier and the Philadelphia Afro-American.

- Yeah, the Philadelphia--

- So let's talk about, what were the circumstances surrounding your injury in World War II?

- The what?

- What were the circumstances, you already said that you got dismissed from the job and got the draft. What did your parents think when you got that draft?

- They never wanted us to go to war. They never wanted any of us boys to go to the army. They felt it was a white man's war. And that we had no business fighting. And we, you know, we didn't have the great stress like President Obama puts on God bless America. And we're all Americans, and yeah, this is America. Even though we ain't got it like it should be, it's still America, and we're still the best. Well, we didn't look at that. We look at it as being two Americas. Okay. Even in the army it was like that. And so, they said okay, you know, when you get in there, they just thought the army was a dreadful thing. And my dad just never really did get over it. He didn't say much, you know, to me about it, when I went in, other than--

- Were you the first son to go to war?

- No, I was the second one to go. One went in before me. And dad used to say, just remember your training. And he says, you know, you have sort of a temper, he says, you gotta control right now. And I said yeah dad, I will. And all this kind of thing, and he said, he said, don't even do anything that would make us ashamed of you. And I remember that.

- When you went off to war, did they have, you know, some kind of send off gatherings or parties?

- No, no. My mother and my niece, who was seven years old at the time, we walked to the bus, over to the middle of town. Got on the bus. Hugged and kissed, and said goodbye. And I was off to war. I rode into Carlisle. I went from Carlisle to Harrisburg, to the induction station. And from there to Fort George G Meade, Maryland. This was all in one day. And I got there about nine o'clock at night, on this troop train, we packed up in there. And the first thing I heard was, fall out over here, I didn't even know what that meant. Get out over here. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

- So were you with, with men who were black and white, or were they all--

- Well, let me tell you what happened. I'm left with, and I met up, I met many of them there. There was a family that lived up in the mountain, by the name of Neils. And the Neils were white. They were white. But they were raised black. Now this is a funny phenomenon I'll tell you about. But it does happen sometimes. And there was black in their family, but this Neil boy was pure white. Pure white. He could pass for white anywhere. And so, we landed in Fort Meade together. And we got one another. And then when we left there to go to basic, which was a little old place down on the mountain called Camp Pickett, Virginia. We got in there that night. And the next morning, I looked over and Neil's bed was empty, and he was gone! And I said to the guy that came in here. We lived in this little old shack, they called them hut muts. And he was in there with eight guys and a corporal. A two striper. So I said, well I said, where's my friend Neil? Well he said, oh he said he ain't here. He said he was transferred. I said, what do you mean transferred? I said we came in here together. He said, yeah, but you gonna stay here. They said, Neil went over with the white people. I said, you gotta be kidding. He said, well he was white, wasn't he? I said, well, yeah, I guess he was. That's all I said. There was no need of my trying to 'cause he was. He had blonde hair. But he was raised colored. I never saw that boy again. I don't know what happened to him. I don't know whether later on a bunch of them, the same guys I went with, were the first batch to go overseas. And I missed out on that. Because they picked me as part of the cannery. And I don't know why they did that, I guess was doing it looked, well all I said was the lord's doing. And, they were gone. But back in Mount Holly, this, they were going as colored. And, you look colored. But that's what happened to him.

- When you were, when you responded to your draft notice, you went to where now?

- I went into Carlisle. That was the place where we all got on this big bus, and we went to the induction station which was in Harrisburg.

- What was that like? What did you have to do?

- Oh, that was a mess. That was a mess. We went down there, and that's where they took all your civilian clothes from you. Wrapped them up, said send these back home. And they put you in a uniform. Back in them days you had to wear a uniform. And then they sent us, they put us all on the train there. And like a bunch of cattle. And sent us down to this place, Fort George G Meade, Maryland.

- When you were in the induction process, were there African-Americans there, telling you what to do, you know, those who were guiding you through packing up your clothes and doing that?

- No, they were all white people.

- All white.

- All white. I didn't meet, I didn't contact, I didn't contact black people in charge, until I got into basic training. That's when I found them in there.

- When you put your uniform on, what did you think? Do you remember how you felt about it?

- Well, you know, we had a lot of fun, you know?

- When you first put it on, what did you think?

- Well I thought, my goodness, I'm gonna have to wear this wooly, wooly stuff for the rest of my life. You know, that's what you thought. And then, you didn't think too much about home. One of the things that we were raised up to, you know, up until I was 19, I had never really been out of the state of Pennsylvania. You know it was that kind of thing. We were just home people. We all stayed around close to home, because--

- How old were you when you got that draft notice?

- I was 19. I was 19. There was just a bunch of those guys around there. But they, did, when we went to the induction station, there was both black and white. And of course then...

- Okay Mr. Gumby. We were talking about, how did you know, when you were separated from all the soldiers, how did you know where to go from, yeah.

- When, at the... I'm trying to think where we filled out these papers. Well that was at the induction station where that happened. When they filled out your service record, they had... Were they using colored or negro?

- One of the two.

- They were using one of them. Yeah, they were. They had white, colored, Native American, and Puerto Rican. Now the interesting thing about a lot of the Puerto Ricans were black just like me. But they were called Puerto Ricans. Not Negroes or not colored people. And I never did, maybe it's because they spoke Spanish, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure that one out. Yeah, but they had a Puerto Rican. Yeah, then later on they picked some more races, like Hawaiian, Asiatic, and took care of all that.

- So that's how, so when you filled that out, then that determined where you would go.

- Where you would go, that's right. And all the blacks, all the coloreds went one way to be trained, and the whites when to another portion to be trained.

- And so where did you receive your training?

- I received my training in Camp Pickett, Virginia. Camp Pickett, Virginia. And I was trained by, in the company I was trained in, was white officers, and black non commissioned officers, white officers, black non commissioned officers. Now, that was an interesting, that was an interesting thing. You really had to watch out there. You had to be careful there. Because the officers were mostly from the south. They treated us just like they had treated the southern people that they grew up to. The culture was, they were in charge. And they were here and we were there, okay? The only difference was that between the white officer and us was a non commissioned officer, who was black. So, right then and there, I guess almost the first day that I got there, first week that I got in there, I said to myself, now, you know, if I'm gonna make it in this thing at all, I'm gonna have to become a non com. Non commissioned officer, we call them non coms. And so, so what I did was, I did a lot of studying. Back in those days, they put you what they call the school of the soldier. Just like going to regular school. Started first grade, graduated in the eighth and ninth. Okay? And all doing them grades you learned certain things. By the time I had finished basic training, well this was how much I learned about the army. They had a book of instructions there, called the ARD. The Army Regulation Directives. I knew half of that book, and could recite it. Well, that impressed somebody. Because doing, we had nine weeks of training. When about, oh, during the sixth or seventh week, they said to me, this officer did, he said well, and he couldn't talk very well. He pronounced my name like it was, like it had an A in Gamby. It says Gumby, it was Gamby. He said Gamby! And I said, yes sir? You know, you had to say sir to him and all that kind of mess, you know. And he said, I've been watching you, and I started to tell him I been watching you too, but I didn't. And so, he said, you'd make a good non com. And I said, well thank you sir. And he said, so, about two weeks after that let me tell you what they did. They made me an acting non com, an acting corporal. Okay? Now what they did I laugh about that to this day. They had these two stripes on a band. And of course they can bust you or bring you up or down. And so as long as you put this on, put this thing on with two stripes on, you had authority. You were higher than the other fellas, okay? There was no question that that was it. So I said, okay, so, well it was the longest time before I was able to really sew 'em on my clothes, you know? And or get paid for it. I just acted as a non com. And under these, under these other non commissioned officers and these white officers. Well it so happened that the non commissioned officers were fellows who had came out of the ninth and 10th cavalry. And they were the Buffalo Soldiers. 9th and 10th. And they're, they ate and slept and walked soldiery. It was a vocation just like you were a teacher or whatever you were. That's what these were, they were just dyed in the wool soldiers. And they were impressed that I was able to learn the army regulations so fast. That I took the time to do it. But what they didn't know is I'm trying all I can to get away from the humdrum you know? And so, never gonna forget. There was a guy, there was three fellas, and they all came out of the, they came out of the 25th infantry. The 25th infantry division. Which was an all black unit, with some black officers, but mostly the highest ranking officers were white. Now I didn't serve in any of the infantry units, but I served under people who came out of there. And I'm telling you they were dandies. So I had this guy named Willy Williams, never will forget. And Willy kind of took a liking to me. And he said, boy he said, you're smart, he said. Then another thing I used to do, and I'll get back to my main story. There was a lot of guys in there who couldn't read or write. And the saddest thing that you ever wanna see is when they have mail call. And a guy gets a letter, and he can't read it. Or can't answer it. So, I found several of those fellas. And these were guys that knew something about the army too, that I could learn from. And I would write letters for them. And then letters come, I'd read for them, you know? Everything. And they could write their name, but that was all. They had learned to write their name. Some of them used an X, but most of them could write their name. But they were good soldiers. They were top notch. And knew the book and all this kind of, had one guy from Mississippi, the delta. Oh I lost track of him and I'm so sorry about that, his name was Deloach. Ollie Deloach. Deloach was a great big six foot guy, strong. Fierce looking warrior, you know? And if he told you to shut up, you'd better. Because the next thing you know, he was gonna shut you up. And I got him on my side. But he couldn't write and he couldn't read. But he liked to get a lot of mail and stuff like that. And so I'd write for him. And he'd get these letters. And so when they called out the mail they'd call him out. Sergeant Ollie Deloach, he said, year! Never did say here, year, he'd say, like it was Y-E-A-R. And boy, he was getting the mail then. So he'd get the mail, and we'd go round behind the barracks or someplace, and I'd read it to him. So, you know, look now. He finally, matter of fact, there was another guy, and I'm trying to think of his name. He was out of Florida and he was really smart, he'd gone to Florida A&M. And together we were teaching Ollie how to read. You know? Basic reading. Now that's, you know, I had forgot about how you learn to read, you know? And you learn like we learned in the first grade with the first grade book and all that. And he was just so amazed. What was this guy's name? But this guy had gone to Florida A&M, and we were teaching Ollie how to read. And all that sort of thing. And he could write his name. But soldier, he could do it. And they used to get him. They used to have him to call the roll for reveille. And I'll tell you what this guy could do. He probably just didn't have the opportunity to learn. He could probably have been one of the smartest guys in the world. And he was standing up there on that hill, and called out every soldier's name. And never miss a one. And you couldn't fool him. And when they called at reveille. John Smith! Here. You just said here or present. Someone would say here! And then, one time they got up there and they tried to fool old Ollie, they said, and he called out a name, another guy called out. He said, who was that fella called that last name? Said, wasn't the name I called. He said, I want him to step out here right now. And he stopped everything until that guy came out there. And he put him right out in front. And so he told me he says, when I call your name, he says you answer it. Don't you answer for nobody but you. Said, don't you know your own name? This guy couldn't read! Just amazing memory. And so we ran into a lot of that. But a lot of these guys had been in the old armies, so to speak.

- When you said you wanted to pursue this to get away from the humdrum.

- Right.

- What was the humdrum?

- Well the humdrum was, you had to do, you had specific duties that every soldier did. One was kitchen duty. KP. The other was yardbird duty. You had to do the yard. The other was, had to work the garbage truck. Soldiers did all that. The other was, any time they broke up camp and moved to another camp, they had a whole bunch of detail guys. Well if you were a non commissioned officer, you didn't have to do none of that. You saw that it was done, but you'd never do it.

- So that was your motive.

- Yeah, yeah that was my motive. And the other was, I knew that eventually, that we would be going to some kind of technical school or other, you know. And that if I had pretty good marks in what I was doing here that I'd be able to get into it. And sure enough I did. This whole process landed me in the medical corps. And when you got in the medical corps, then they sent me off to a school to become a first aid man. Okay? And they taught us anatomy, physiology. How to fix wounds. Give shocks. Carry morphine. Man I'm telling you, I had more morphine pellets and things like that, I had real morphine, in a little thing like that. And how to, when a guy was going into shock. How to, you know. I mean you give him the morphine before he, to keep him from going into the shock. Because the pain is what shocked him up. So we learned all that. And then, you also had some hospital training. You had to go in there and do corps duty, corpsman duty. Empty bedpans and all this kind of stuff. And while I was in there, I learned to give shocks. And I learned about, you know, dermal, epidermal, muscular, intermuscular. And then intravenous and all this kind of stuff. And I can probably still do it, I haven't done it in years but I know how to do it. So I learned all that. And just kept, just gradually progressing. Well with everything you learn, you step, you know, you move up, and you move up, and you move up, and you move up, and up, and up, and up. And to make a long story short, by the time I left the service, I was the highest enlisted man that there was, I was a chief master sergeant. I had eight stripes. Okay? I was never commissioned, 'cause I really never wanted one. I don't know why but I just, the non commissioned officer was enough for me. I just never wanted to be an officer, I don't know. Well it just never occurred to me, you know.

- When you were doing this basic training, where did you complete your basic training?

- I completed it in Pickett. Camp Pickett, Virginia.

- Okay, what was that, was that camp nice? Did you know what the white camps looked like?

- Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was separated.

- Was the white camp nearby?

- Yeah, it was across the street.

- Oh, okay.

- Had a big fight there one night. Well what happened was, we had our own next things over here. But yeah, you know, that's a long story. We had our own over there, and we had our own little recreation house, service clubhouse. They had theirs over there. So some smart aleck, it was a white boy, came over to ours one day. And I don't know, I guess to buy cigarettes and things like that, whatever he came over there for. But a bunch of them got together and ran him out of there. So he went back across the street and told his buddies. He said I went over to the PX and them guys over there chased me out. Said they was gonna whip me. That was kind of the story. So then a fight broke out. And then it was a racial thing. And so, they didn't know that we had two units on our side that had guns. See by this time I was in the medical unit. But they had some engineering guys, some combat engineers, these were black boys. Now the combat engineer group, not only did they dig ditches and make bridges and tear 'em down, all that, but they also had guns. They had rifles. Just like, they had, oh what'd they call that little gun there?

- Machine guns?

- Yeah machine gun thing, right. They had those and all that. And of course the other side over there was really armed. And you know them soldiers started shooting across at one another. So word got to the general on the post that the riot, and of course he went down there to see if he could, you know, he was gonna stop it and everything, so when they came down they they shot over his car, I don't think. But it was a mess, you know?

- So what was the penalty paid for that misbehavior?

- Well what happened was, about three days later. They took all the white boys and they shipped them out. And sent 'em overseas. It was, I think they called them the dirty damn, there was the DD Division. That the guys had named them, the Dirty Damn Division, or you know how soldiers give things names. And now they put these guys, and they shipped 'em all out. And of course that took care of that, you see. But we always had the worst part of the camp. Now for example, over where the other fellas were in that division, was that a dog down there getting or is that a possum?

- A dog.

- That's a dog, yeah. Now and then I have possums come through there, I have groundhogs come through.

- No, that's a dog. Don't shoot him.

- I have raccoons come through here. All kinds of stuff. And so, they sent these guys on out. Oh what I was about to say is that where we were back over here, we were living in tents. I'm talking about regular tents, canvas tents. And no latrine facilities or anything. And over on the other side, they were living in wooden barracks. So, what are you gonna do?

- So when those guys got shipped out, what did you guys keep doing?

- Well they shipped us out about three weeks later, we left and went to Texas. And they closed that camp. They closed that, and they opened up, well they had opened up a bigger one down there in Texas, a place called Camp Barkley. And that's where I met Miss Gumby down there and Ambelline. And we had terrible quarters down there too. Just strictly bad.

- Were they worse than the ones in, what, where you were, Virginia, or were they about the same?

- Well let me tell you what they were. Years ago, the government had started camps called CC camps. Okay. And the CC camps turned into army camps. Conservation corps, something like that I think it was called. And so we stayed in the old CC barracks. And you could look out through 'em just like that, only this got glass there. Look out through the side, you look up through, when it rained, it rained on us and everything. And so what happened was, General Davis, senior. Bill Davis Senior, was the only black general you had for a long time. He came down there on a tour. I don't know whether, well I think what happened, one of the black newspapers got a hold of it, or the NAACP or somebody and how they wrote this up, how bad we were living down there. So they sent him down there to see this place where we were living. And he's a big general of course. About a week or two before we got there, well they found out he was coming. They moved us over into the white area. Into the good barracks.

- But where were the white guys?

- They had moved out.

- Oh they had moved out. Yeah, these places were empty all the time. And a matter of fact, it was the school where they had had Officer Kennedy down there. So they moved us into these, oh it was just like going from some place in the crown center to the Hyatt, you know? We had running water, we had showers on the inside. We had, you know, bathrooms and stools and everything. And we had the kitchen privileges, lovely mess hall and all this kind of stuff, well we just didn't know what to do with ourselves. But it happened. And when this gentleman came down there, all he did was just kind of ride through like, you know. They had us all standing out at attention the day he come, and all that kind of stuff. They didn't play the Stars and Stripes, but I imagine they would've done that I guess, if somebody were to ask him to. And they did all this just because this guy showed up. But the real change didn't come until Harry Truman got into office. And I remember the day that the order came down. To where there would be no more segregated services. And Truman was the guy that did it. And he said, we're gonna do this. And we mean it. And anybody that causes any trouble, from the highest to the lowest, I'm gonna fire him. Well, we had some little problems, but it didn't last long. But from then on, things really got, now this must have been about 19...

- 49.

- 48 or 49, along in there somewhere.

- But let's go back, let's not, if you would hold that thought, and I don't wanna interrupt you.

- Yeah I will.

- But let's go just during your experiences during the time of World War II. After this camp, did you stay at this camp throughout World War II?

- No. I stayed at that camp in Texas. Let me see. I was down there. I was in, no, I came up, I was in Texas twice. The first time I went down there, you know I was stationed in Texas three times. The first time I went down there, I went to, we were in... What was the name of that fort down there?

- But this was the fort where you had, were living in the CC camp.

- Right, right. Yeah, yeah, we were in the CC camp, that's right. That's right, yeah, and then we left. Then... The next time I went, we were in the, oh, it's the big general hospital, Fort Sam Houston.

- But where did you go during World War II?

- Mostly during the war. See I didn't get overseas. The first time I got overseas. I didn't get overseas until in the '50s.

- Okay. But let's go back to World War II. Did you serve out all of World War II in Texas at that camp?

- No, no. Most of World War II was done in, some in Texas. Some in Missouri.

- Where were you in Missouri, do you remember?

- In Neosho.

- Okay.

- Up in the mountains.

- Was that also a segregated camp?

- Oh my goodness, yes.

- What was it like? Do you remember anything about it?

- It was terrible. It was way up in them hills. We were like, I don't know, maybe 12, 13 miles from Neosho. About 25 miles, I guess, from Joplin. And we used to, on weekends, we used to go, when we get weekend passes. We'd go to Joplin. Or was that Naosho? And we catch a train called the Katy. MKT. That came down from Missouri through Kansas into Tulsa. And we'd go there to see the girls, you know, of course, recreation, then you had to go back that weekend and go back to, yeah. So the majority of that was spent in WWII. And yes, because yeah, that's where I was when I went back, to Texas, to Fort Sam. So that had to be about... Went down what, in '47 along in there somewhere. Yeah, about '47. '47, along in there.

- So you were in Missouri, and Missouri, you were in Missouri.

- Yeah, I was in Missouri.

- Any other places did you serve during the time before '46?

- See, I served in Pickett, and I served in Texas, then I went from Texas to Missouri. Then I went back to Texas. When I went back to Texas the third time, I was in the air force then.

- Now tell me, during World War II, when they kept moving you, you know, before '46, when they kept moving you around. Why did they keep moving you around?

- Well what they were doing, they were, you know, they had opened up so many bases. And they had begin to close them. And as they closed these bases, they would move the soldiers to other stations. And I got caught in several of these. See they had what they called temporary places, temporary camps, and then they had permanent camps. The temporary camps, they called them camp so and so and so and so. The permanent places they called them fort so and so and so and so. So like, Fort Sam in Houston, that was a permanent place. And Fort Meade was a permanent place. Pickett by that time they had closed it up. And then they were about to close this base down here in Neosho. It was called, it was a temporary camp called Camp Crowder.

- So did you ever think you were gonna be sent overseas during World War II?

- Oh yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you had to be ready. We had our bags packed for a minute's notice to go overseas. We had one barracks bag, when it was full it was about this high. And it had everything in it that you owned, and that you would need, including your mess gear, and your mask that you have to put on for gas. Your gas mask. Which was the only thing that you strapped over you shoulder. And so when you picked this bag up, put on your hat and coat, you were ready to hit for any place that the government was gonna send you.

- Did you all ever get wind of that they were gonna send you overseas directly?

- Oh yeah, yeah, we had it all the time. During the time we were down here in Missouri, President Truman was in then. They had a big strike or something like that in St. Louis, and they loaded us all up in trucks and things like that. And we were gonna go to St. Louis and guard the trains. Well, we got just at the last minute, before we pulled out, we got word that the strikers behaved themselves and got settled down, we didn't have to go up there. And I'm sure glad of that because, I didn't want to get into that.

- When World War II ended, where were you?

- When it actually ended, I was in Lockbourne, Ohio. Lockbourne Air Force Base, Ohio. That's right at Columbus.

- How did you jump from the army to the air force base?

- Well let me tell you what happened. The third time, the second time I went to Texas, I was in what they called a... What do we call that? Well anyhow it was a great big pool of men. Just a whole bunch of us. And I gotta look at one of my pots, can I...

- Sure, sure, I'll stop it right here.

- I was living in Columbus, Ohio.

- Okay, I think we're gonna, okay, we're gonna have to repeat this. When you were, so you never went beyond, you stayed stateside during World War II.

- Stateside during World War II. Never got into conflict.

- Okay, although you were trained as a--

- Trained to do it, yeah.

- Trained as combat.

- I was trained as a combat medic. And I could do all those things I told you before. I was a corpsman. I could, I went to school, and they had taught me a lot of anatomy and physiology. And I knew about stresses, and strains and all that kind of stuff. And I knew about the soldiers who were fig mode, we called it, but these were guys who were in depression and had lost their minds. And how to treat them.

- Would you write letters home?

- No.

- Did you ever write home?

- No, well, yeah, I'd written a few letters home, to guys that I knew, you know.

- Did you write home to your parents?

- Oh all the time, yes indeed. I wrote mama and them every week. Uh-huh, oh yeah, I kept letters going up there.

- Did they send you letters?

- Oh my goodness yes. I've got some of them round here somewhere. I think Ros has gobbled them up. She put together a thing for the family too you know. Oh yeah, I wrote. Then when I went overseas, finally, got overseas. I wrote Miss Gumby, my wife, every day.

- So you married her before, did you marry her during World War II?

- I sure did.

- What was that courtship like? I mean you had told me that you were singing in the thing.

- Well I met her in '43. And that's when we formed this group. And her father was a minister there in Ambelline. So we would sing at her church and all over town. And we drew some pretty good crowds up there. The offerings, you know, collections were pretty good, so, they kind of liked me, you know? But we married in July 18th, 1946. That's when we got married.

- What made you decide to get married?

- Well, I kind of wanted her, you know?

- But was this after the war? Can you remember?

- I don't know whether the war had ended, the war ended in '46. And we got married in July of '46. And our first child was born in April '47. And it was either that or, you know, I had somebody back home, supposedly waiting on me.

- Well in terms of, so after the war what did you do?

- Well after the war I went home. And then I couldn't find no job. So I re-enlisted and went back in.

- And you brought your wife back home.

- Oh yeah, brought my wife back home.

- And when you said you couldn't find any job, what kind of experiences did you have?

- Well I was, you know, what I did, I went back to Pennsylvania to get my old job back, working with the Navy. But they was all filled up. I forget how many millions of men we had on arms under World War II. And the minute the war was over, the floodgate was open. And by the time I got out, they had just about taken up all the jobs. You know, the good jobs.

- Right, right.

- I probably could have went on a farm or something like that but I thought I was bigger than that, you know, by then. I had worked out pretty good. I was, one of those steps, I was a technical sergeant then. I sure was, when I got out. And I re-enlisted.

- How long did it take you to decide to re-enlist?

- Not very long. I stayed up about two weeks. My break in service was about two weeks in all them 27 years.

- So you made up your mind right away to go right back?

- Right away, to go right back.

- And so did you go back into the army?

- Went in the air force.

- What made you change military units?

- Well by that time, I was what they called SCARWAF. You see, the air force. The air force had, Truman did this too. The air force had separated, and became a separate service just like the army. That's why we got the four, army, navy, air force, and marines. Back when I first got in it was the army air force. So the air force got so big that they wanted to be by themselves. So it was better, since they were newer and everything, I figured that I could move up faster, since they didn't have anybody doing what I was doing. Okay? So when I joined them, I just read up in, well I was SCARWAF. Then I transferred over to the air force permanently. And I went over what they called in grade, using the same serial number. Only thing I changed was from RA, the regular army, to air force, AF. 50233885. That was my serial number.

- You remember.

- Oh you never forget that kind of stuff. See, you were taught in the military, that when the enemy got you, there was only two things that you could repeat, your name and your serial number. Never anything else. If you gave them any other information, you could be accused of high treason. Your name, my name is Harry Lester Gumby. My serial number is AF305882.

- When you re-enlisted, where did you do it?

- Right there on the base. Yeah.

- In Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania?

- No, I was in Columbus, Ohio.

- In Columbus Ohio.

- Yes sir, I did it right there. Held up one hand. Well you get out one day, and then you go back the next day. See the same day that you're out, you can't go back in the same day. But I had a two week break. So I just went on and held it up. And then they gave me my re-enlistment bonus. And oh boy. I was in pretty good shape. Yeah I had a pocket full of money and everything like that. Nice little wife, baby on the way. I said hey I'm set here. And I had worked up to the rank where, you know, when you get a certain rank, they give you a place to live on the base and all that kind of stuff. Oh lord, I'll tell you, it was royal. The service was a good place to be as long as there was no fighting going on.

- When you re-enlisted, was the... Where was the base that was in Ohio? What was it, were you in segregated quarters?

- Let me tell you what happened. The whole base was black. Let me tell you what happened. Oh this is interesting, okay. The Kentucky airmen. The 99th. They were the 99th, and the 301st wing, bomb wing. They had been in Italy. And over there, they were known as the Red Tails. Okay? The Red Tails were black airmen who flew P-51s. And I don't know how many missions they flew, escorting the bombers in and out over the territory, and never lost a one. Never lost a one, and never lost an airplane. Them suckers were good. Now. When they brought 'em back from overseas. To show you that we had really got this thing together, you know, in America here. These were American people, born and reared here. Educated here, all that kind of good stuff. And fighting for this country, for our flag. They brought 'em back to the States, and sent them down to Godman Field, Kentucky, right outside Louisville. And the white folks down there said, we don't want them colored fellas down here in Kentucky. We don't want 'em, get 'em out of here. You gotta get the whole shebang out. So, they had this base in Ohio called Lockbourne Air Force Base, which was 17 miles south of Columbus. They moved them all from Godman field, up to Lockbourne.

- And that's where you were.

- That's where I got with 'em.

- Oh you got with 'em, you weren't there originally.

- No no, I wasn't there when they got there. I came there later. I came there later. But I'll tell you, that was the finest. Oh I learned something, listen. They didn't know that when they did that, that buddy, they just gave us the best chance to really prove that we could do anything that anybody else could do in the world. Let me tell you what happened. We were integrated there. General Cosada, Mexican general came down. He was segregated against too, never made four stars. He came down from the ninth air force, which was in Virginia. And he said, we're doing this all wrong, but it's orders from the President. Says, you know, we should integrate the white into you guys instead of breaking you up and sending you over here. Said they need to come to this base. And get some expertise on how a base is run. See this is great over here, said you guys got the best thing going. And they got together and they said, but we gotta break it up, so they did. Now my first station, never will forget this, in 1949, I guess it was, eight or nine. After I left Lockbourne, was in Cleveland. And Cleveland's up north. I would think it'd be great up there. Went to Cleveland, Ohio, little old town called Bariya. First place we went up there, and we couldn't find no place to live. So we went way out in some old barracks that they had built during World War II, and the industry workers working in them, and they had turned them into homes. So that's where I found out for me, a place for me and my wife. And by that time I had two children to live in. But anyhow, when we went to Bariya, Ohio, to the air force base, they wouldn't give the black fellas no job! Now we were schooled in the military and I'm telling you, child, we were good. I was, by that time I had worked up to master sergeant. I thought I was tough. Really I did. I mean I thought I was something else, you know? I thought that I could do anything that needed to be done. And so, let me tell you what happened. They had this air force reserve wing. That's when they started this active reserve business. And it's carried on to this day. And I didn't like it then, I don't like it now, because they start putting the women in there, and they sent them to, I had a niece, who just got out a year, about three months ago, had been in Afghanistan, Iran, and them, twice, from this active reserve still. Well it's alright if you stick it out and there ain't no war, but it's, women and war just don't work. And it's not a thing for women to get into. War is for men. Okay. But anyhow. What happened was, they had this reserve air wing, with the pilots and all, there was like 900 of these people. And we called them weekend warriors. Every week, certain number of them came out for training, and we were there to train them. But they wouldn't give us no job. I was supposed to be running the infirmary. That was my job, okay? I had a six bit infirmary there. I'm supposed to be boss in there. You know, they had a guy who was two ranks lower than me in charge, white boy. I didn't say nothing. See in the military, whether you work or whether you sleep all the time, you still get a check at the end of the month. So, well, said I, you know, I knew what I was sent there to do. I knew what I could do. And, I was getting paid every month. So why should I kick the bucket? Because I knew it was gonna come to a head one day, and it did. The inspector general, just before the Korean War broke out. The inspector general came down there to check the unit. To see if they were ready to go to war, to active duty. Totally white unit. There was eight of us blacks in it. All came from black, from Lockbourne. From the black air base. All went to Cleveland. None of us had--

- You were talking about the inspector general came, just before Korea in Ohio.

- Right, right. The inspector general, the IG came in. To inspect the forces there, to see if they were ready to go on active duty. And they failed the inspection. So the first thing this big colonel did, was get all the officers and all the non coms together. And he chewed us up one side, across our head and down the other side. And called us everything but a child of God. And said, how could you let this happen? So for some reason or another they always try to pick me as the spokesman, I don't know why. But the guys looked over to me, and nod their heads. So we have, you know, our quiet communicative ways of getting around. And so I held up my hand. And I said, colonel, I said, can I speak? And he said, sergeant, I'll be glad to hear what you got to say. And I said well first of all, I said that's the best chewing out I've ever got. I've been in this military since '43. And I said I never had a butt chewing like you laid on us today. And I said but you gave it to the wrong people, I said, we don't even have a job here. I said we've never had an assignment here. And the gentleman stood out in his veins, veins stood out in his neck that big. And his face turned as red as a beet. He almost has a stroke. And he said, sarge, what are you talking about? I said, well let me give you an example, sir. I said, I work for a staff sergeant. He hit the floor. He said, you're not in charge down where you are, sarge? Said I worked for a staff sergeant. I said he's a pretty nice little fella and all that, I said, but he's in charge, I'm not. He said, well, he said, who's commander that you know there? That captain. if a hole could have opened up and swallowed him, he'd have been gone. He was so embarrassed, put out. And he says, well you're in charge now, sarge. I said, well colonel, I tell you, you send your team, this was on Friday. I said you send your team back down there at eight o'clock Monday morning. And I said we'll go through the procedures again. I said send them down. He said, we'll do that, sarge. He said, anybody else in there? So all the rest of them said, we don't have a job either, sarge. He fired them commanders right on the spot. Oh, listen. Them guys almost, I don't know whether they got caught was enough, because shortly after that we left, when I say shortly after that, the wing failed, and we all got new assignments, they sent me to New York. In Mitchell Field, way out in Long Island, if you've ever been to New York. But that's where they sent me. But that's what happened, you know? And listen. We got busy. And so when I went back down to the unit, you know, the word had gotten down and I said well, fellas, I guess I'm in charge, and I said, you guys know me and I know you, I said, the only difference is, you know, I give instructions and I didn't say orders. And I said, now anybody that doesn't wanna work for me there's the door. Nobody left. Nurses stayed, doctors stayed. They said, sarge, we've been waiting for this. Well the old first sergeant who was really a prejudiced dude. I saw him about an hour after that. So he starts saying, listen man. I said. I won't even talk to you. I said I don't even wanna say nothing to you, and don't you say anything to me. I said because you knew what happened. And I said, you were embarrassed, because you made the embarrassment. I said don't say anything. And I said you better not say anything-- I said because, I told them, and gave them a chance to leave. And they said sarge, we're staying. I said, so you know what that means. They're gonna do what they need to do. Monday morning we were ready. Oh, it was, they were saying. But, you know, it happened. And I knew the unit was a mess when we got there, but you know, you can't do a thing, with people in charge, just like anything else, you know. They had to say so and the authority and so, with that is supposed to go responsibility. But that's what happened with that particular thing. But the other thing, and what I wanted and I said, all the while I was in the service, maybe with the exception of, well, it even happened there, I was thinking about my Hawaiian tour. It seemed as though I always had to prove myself. I don't know. But it didn't worry me, because I always thought I was ahead of the job. And that by being ahead of the job, you know, then you knew what to do to get the job done. And so you just stayed ready for it.

- So let's just go through your career in the military. So after '49, then where did you, you said you went to New York?

- Yeah, I went to New York. After I left Ohio, I went to New York. Out to Mitchell Field, Long Island. I was supposed to be working in a hospital up there. And when I got up there, they had a mixup in assignments, I don't know how this happened. There was a guy in a position that I was supposed to be in there. He didn't even know I was coming. And so, I said, well it's okay man, you know. And I happened to outrank him, he was a white fella, and I happened to outrank him, I said, man, don't you worry about this thing. I said, I don't like it up here anyhow. And he said oh, you don't? I said no. And he said, what you gonna do? I said, well, I said tomorrow morning I'm gonna call the Pentagon. And I said, I'll just tell them what happened, you know? And so they had an assignment section down there and everything. And so, he said, well, he said, he said, well, he said, well where do you think they might send you? He said, you don't wanna go back overseas, I said no, I don't wanna go overseas. I said I wanna really, I said I'd like to go to Texas if I could, I said, but hey, wherever they got a space. So they sent me down to Trenton, New Jersey. A place called Maguire Air Force Base down there. They had a unit down there. So they sent me down there. And I went on down there, and same thing happened, when I got there, and they had a guy, who's one rank under me who was in charge. Well normally the highest ranker takes over. So I told, oh man, don't worry about me. By then, I'm used to this kind of thing. I said, you know, just remember, you know, that when, you know, we get down to nitty gritty, you know. That you're in charge. And just tell him so, you know? He won't even know I'm here. And it was really embarrassing for him, you know? It really was. And so... Two or three times, when something had to go out of the unit or something like that, he'd asked me to sign it, I said, well, you know, I'm really not supposed to that, you know? I said, you know, 'cause I'm not in charge over here. I said, what I'm doing is certifying that this is me and it's like it's supposed to be, and everything's okay. I said even though, I said you're doing a good job. You're doing a good job. So, I stayed there for I don't know, maybe, oh, I must've hung around there for at least two years. And then, one day a guy called me and he said, you know. We got this assignment up in Pepperrell Air Force Base. I said, well where in the world is that, man? He says, St. John's, Newfoundland. I said oh, that ain't too bad. Newfoundland's what, maybe 900 miles north of New York City. Just the other side of Canada. And he said I've been up there and he said, it's a pretty good base. Said they need a sergeant major up there, I said really? Yeah. I said okay, go ahead and write up the order and we'll go up. And he said, he said you can take your family up there with you, I said no, I'm not taking my family up there no place until I check it out and see what's going on. I said they're gonna stay right back here in the States. And so I sent them onto Pennsylvania. And I'm glad I did because that gave my folks a chance to see their grandchildren and that sort of thing. So I went up to St. John's. Got up there, go, and what happened was they had another fella in the job that I was supposed to be in, I said, well now how in the world do they get these assignments mixed up? And so we laughed about it and he said, oh Harry, he said we can both do this job. You know, we're getting paid. Same thing, you know what I'm saying? And I said, yeah. I said, but it just doesn't seem like it's the way it's supposed to be. And he said well I tell you what. He said they got a hospital in VW1. Well VW1 was in Greenland. The Sasawack Air Force Base up in Greenland. And he said, you ever been up there? And I said no, I've never been to Greenland. He said well. He said the tour is shorter up there. I said, really? He said, yeah. And I said, well, I don't mind, since I'm over here. And I said Greenland's only another six, 700 miles further north. I guess I was ready to go up there and take a look at them Eskimos, and see what's going on up there, and so, so we got the assignments and everything together, so I went to Greenland. I stayed up for two years. Had a wonderful time. Greenland you know, is... Sun, and also, you also have total darkness too, for about three of the months. But it worked just well with what I was doing, because I had a lot of guys that could take the daylight, but they couldn't take the night. And it was all psychological. And they did the worst thing in the world. Whiskey was cheap up there. And they'd get to drinking, you know. And that's a no-no. When you get to drinking, you get the DB, you get to seeing things, and you get hallucinating, and all kinds of things happen to you. I didn't drink. Never had a drink. When I was a boy growing up, we weren't allowed to drink or smoke. And I kind of kept that all through all the years. And, so, I was able to kind of help a lot of the guys get through, had two, three guys who went off on the deep, you know, and we brought 'em back, you know, in a box and that sort of thing. They just couldn't handle it. But, you know, it was, you know. We did our duty up there. I was in the air force by that time, and we used, Greenland was, you know, we were having all that Cold War problem with Russia during that time, remember? And they figured that if the Russians ever hit the United States, they would come over Thule, Greenland, all into VW8, which was Sondrestrom, into one, which and I was on the south tip. I was like 120 nautical miles from where the Titanic went down. That's where I was up there. And so, we had different radar sites. Then, you know, they didn't have doppler, and all this sort of fancy stuff that they got, you know, all that, they don't need that now. But that's way, we were a force to protect the United States from attack.

- And what did you do in particular?

- I was a medic. I ran the hospital.

- You stayed as a medic.

- I stayed as a medic, I ran the hospital. I was sergeant major, ran the hospital, we had a 36, 36 bed hospital up there. And nurses and everything. The Danish at that time, I guess belonged, Denmark owned Greenland I guess. And we were just kind of renting over there, that kind of thing.

- How did they accept you as African-American?

- Oh my goodness. By that time, things had smoothed out. There was very little prejudice, you know? Once in a while, the only instance that I had up there was a guy named West Moore, West was a white guy. And he was our veterinarian, he was our meat inspector guy. Every time he got paid, he would get drunk. And every time he'd get drunk, he would start a fight. And that's the worst time for a man to fight when he's drunk because he's easy to get hit and all this kind of stuff. So what happened one time, he'd sent off to, somebody had sent him some grits. And so he went down to the dining hall, and was gonna cook these grits and all this kind of stuff. And the mess sergeant down there told him no, you can't do that, you know? We don't eat no grits here, and we ain't gonna let you cook them, and he didn't like grits. And all that kind of stuff. So one thing led to another, so they got in a fight. And so they called me and I went down, and saw what the problem was. So I had my own little thing out there, I said West, now you take them grits and you go on down to my place. I said I got a hot plate and everything down there, I say you can cook them down there. He said well I don't see why I can't. He said, I can't, I said well, some guys, you know, just don't eat grits. And I think the mess sergeant, you know, it's like, everything, everybody thinks blacks like watermelon. Well they don't, you know, and some who do, they don't like people knowing that they like it still. And I'm sure that Swaggert, that was his name. That Swaggert ate grits, but he just wasn't gonna let this guy cook 'em in his dining hall. So I lived, West Moore had cooked the grits down there. I said every time you get some grits, I tell you, you come down here. I said, we'll cook 'em up, you and I'll eat 'em, you know. And that's all it takes sometimes. Yeah, that kind of thing.

- So was your family still in...

- No, they came to Texas while I was overseas. Yeah, every time I went overseas they went to Texas.

- You wouldn't take them out?

- Oh no, no.

- Why?

- Well first place, it was too much fooling and moving around, you know? And I wanted, I never wanted my children to grow up on a military installation. Because the culture is different. Now they got into the movement, and I still think sometimes they get a little restless. But this was the longest place that we ever stayed right here, when I brought them here. And the children finished school here, they finished college here.

- When you say here, here, where?

- Right here in Grandview.

- When did you get to Grandview?

- In '64.

- So how long were you in Newfoundland and Greenland?

- Oh my goodness. I was up there four, five years, both places. And then I came back to the States for quite a while. And back again, back to Texas. And then I went to Hawaii and I spent a little over four years over there. And I came from the Hawaiian islands here.

- Oh okay, so, what were you doing in Hawaii? In Hawaii, I ran an aeromedical evacuation squadron. Aero evac we called them. And what it was, we had a group of airplanes. And this time we had gone to the jet airplane. And on the back of these airplanes we had a big red tail. And we used to go into the warzone and pick up the injured service people, and their families too if they lived over there and got sick. And we'd bring them first to Hawaii and then back to the States. And that's, flew 'em back and forth across. And we had this whole squadron of people. Now in this squadron, in this aero evac squadron, I had corpsmen, I had nurses, and one doctor. Okay? And the nurses were what they call flight nurses. They wore a flight uniform, nursing uniform. And they treated the sick on the airplane. And of course, the doctor, he was there for any number of different kind of things. And my job was strictly administrative.

- Right.

- I made sure that they had the right equipment, that they had the right people. And the... The crew was part of what we called the aeromedical crew. And they were assigned to a plane, and they went all overseas. Then, periodically I used to take flights over. And I'd go, we'd call them round robin chip rides. And I would go every place that they went. To Japan. To the Philippines. Down into the Aleutians, wherever they went. And just kind of see how the guys would do. And then spent a great deal of time in the Philippines. And all down in there. Never did get into Vietnam. But we hauled a lot of people out of there.

- But before Vietnam, how was Korea? How did, when we had that conflict, and the war. Well what was it like serving in the military during that time period?

- They had me ready to go to Korea two or three times. and I don't know how in the world I ever got out of it. But it was rough. We still got a bunch of people over there now. Oh yeah. I imagine maybe 40, 50,000. And if we leave there, them boys from North Korea gonna march down on them.

- Right, but you never had to go to Korea.

- Never, never. I never went to Korea, never went to Vietnam.

- So when Vietnam started, where were you during the Vietnam war?

- I was slated for Vietnam when I got out. See, when you get in the military, the longer you stay, the more people you meet. And so, when I came back from Hawaii, in '64. I came out here to Richards-Gebaur. And in '69, five years later, they came out with, with a policy that said that if you had 20 years in, and you've been overseas X number of times, you didn't have to go back no more. Well I didn't believe that, but that time, no. 'Cause the military changes, so... I found out who was, by that time, for the air force societies, they had changed the, they had changed the assignments to Randolph Air Force Base in Texas. And I called down there one day, checking my record, on my record, checking all this kind of stuff. And somehow or other my name got bandied around down there, but this guy called me, and he's a guy that I had served with. In the service they use your nickname a lot, this guy called me Gum. Like G-U-M, Gum, he said, hey, listen, I didn't even know where you were and what happened to you, I said well, I'm up here, in Missouri, and I said, he said well, you're at Dicky Goober, that's the nickname they'd given this base. I don't know where they got that from, I said, yeah, I'm at Dicky Goober. He said, well, he said, you know, what? He said, ain't you about read for an overseas assignment? I said no, I'm not. And he said, well I'll be watching out for you. Well, I said good. So, I guess a month later, this guy called me. And he said, Gum, he said, you know what? He said, you ready to get out and retire? And I said, yeah, I'm about ready to go. He said, you wanna go to 30, I said, well, if they'll let me alone I'll go to 30. And he said well, I think your name will be up in the next three or four weeks. I said are you kidding? I said where, he said, Cam Ranh Bay, I said, you gotta be kidding. I said, I'm protected by the last instruction to come out, he said no, he said no, he said you're not, he said all us old soldiers he said, we go, he said I'm gonna have to go myself if I stay. And I said, well, okay. He said, well you know what to do. I went that afternoon and put in my retirement papers.

- You weren't going to Vietnam.

- Wasn't going. I went and put them in. And I had to type them out, put them in and everything. Three weeks later, I walked into the hospital one morning. Well after I did this I just kind of, you know, well I had talked it all over with Brandon, Ros, and all them, they said well dad, we think you've done enough. You've pledged your allegiance and said, we don't want you to go nowhere, but out of there. And says, you can come on our here and get you a job. Or get no job, going back to school. Finish your education. And I said, okay guys. Three weeks later, I went to the hospital one morning. I went in there, and everybody was sad and glum and weren't nobody saying nothing. And so, Carol Ball, never will forget, bless her heart, white girl who worked for me. She was secretary and receptionist all of this, and good. This old release of it. She started crying, I said, what's going on round here, is there somebody dying? And they said no. They said, chief, says your assignment's in. I said, yeah? And they said, said, you're scheduled to go to Cam Ranh Bay, I said really? They said yeah, I said oh boy. I don't think I wanna go over there. They said well how you gonna get out of it? Oh I said, well I just think I'll retire. I played with them now, a little bit.

- Right, right.

- So, after they all settled down in the afternoon, they... I kind of, you know, you learn a little, to be a little mischievous too. Lot of times we'd all eat in the dining room together. And the workers could eat in there too, they had to pay. So I waited 'til they all got in the dining room. So I said, well, guys. I said, I got about another three more weeks here, before I can eat in your nice dining hall here. And I said, then when I come out to eat in here, I'll have to eat in here as a civilian. They said, what's going on? I said, well I'm retiring in three weeks. They said, you're retiring? They said it's all over the hospital that you're going to Vietnam. I said well, no I decided not to go. They said well you can't get out of that. So I reached in my pocket book. And I passed this thing all around, it was a copy that I made, I said here, send this around, let these folks read. They said, well, you've been carrying this around for three weeks? I said, I have. I said listen, I haven't been in this place for no 27 years and not know what the ropes are and how they go. I said, you learn a little bit of something that puts you, gives you an advantage, and they said, well, so you get that, I said yep. Well, the commander called me, oh, he, matter of fact he passed just a few months ago, never will forget him, nice guy, colonel. He called me over. And he said oh, he said sarge, he said you left us down, I said, so I listen to him. Very respectful. But listen, I was in the service when that guy was still in college. You know what I mean? And so I listened to what he had to say and all that. And I told him I said, well, I'll consider it. But I had already considered when I went in. That was a terrible war. We lost a lot of guys over there. A lot of my friends went over there and never came back. And now I understand, we're friends with all of Vietnam. And it's just like it never happened. We got trade things going with them and all that. And that's what war does. Now this thing in Korea I don't know how in the world we'll ever get that. And I hope that Iran and Afghanistan doesn't turn into the same thing. I was glad to see them bring all those guys home the other day, and the vice president's son I think was among the first ones to come back. It's just a terrible thing. War is awful. And even though we can prepare for it, you're never ready for it. It's just terrible.

- So when you got out of the military, then what did you do?

- The day I got out I had a job. They had these health centers all around over the country, health clinics. And they had them in impoverished areas. And they had one down here called Wayne Minor Health Clinic, or Health Center. It was at Ninth and Euclid. And I had sent my resume down there. And they called me down there. And Joe Harkin, never will forget. Joe was from a little town out here in Kansas. Graduate of University of Kansas. And a great guy, good administrative fella. He was from, you know, when you go down 35 and just before you go on Dupris, what is that down there? I can't think of it right now. But you go down I-35 through Kansas and then just before you get to the turnpike you break through that little town down there. And that's where he was from. So he read my resume and he said my goodness gracious. Said this is what we need down here. Said oh, my goodness. So he told the doctor, we had a guy, a black guy named Dr. Rogers, who was the center director. And he said doc, he said, you better get this guy before he gets away from you. And so, they called me and asked me to come down. So I went down. And the doctor said, well Joe has read your resume, he said, I haven't read it yet, but he's telling me that, you know, we better get you before you get away. He says, when you getting out of the service? I said well, I'm getting out in a day or two. I said well I'm going back home to take my family back here and I'll be gone a month. And he said, well where's back home? I said, Pennsylvania. And I'm going to Texas too, all this kind of stuff. And he said, okay. So they hired me. I worked down there off and on for over 20 years. And ran the center, I was the administrator. And in the meantime I went back to school, I graduated from Park. And I have major in psychology, I mean, in sociology, and minor in administration. And I just did that for record purposes, really.

- You enjoy learning.

- Oh I loved it. Loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it.

- In terms of your experience as a soldier, since you've made the military your career. What have you enjoyed the most about that experience?

- Well. I would say that I met a lot of nice people. Not only that, but, I learned to, I learned some things, tactics, we like to call them, in the military. That in the military, that helped me in management situations out here. For example. I was having some problems down at the center with some of the managers. Well, they had a problem with me because I had the management experience. But didn't have a degree. Wasn't thinking about that. In the military, if you're in charge, and you have a responsibility, you are just that. No matter whether you got 10 degrees or none at all. They're looking for you to do that particular job, be responsible for that job, implore it to meet the levels of efficiency that the job requires. Okay? And so, I guess I'd been there about three years, and I told doc one day I said, you know, and he said, I said these people are never gonna learn. So he said a very simple thing to me, he said well Harry, he says, you know why that is? I said well why is it? He says, you're trained. And they're not. And that clicked in my head. And I thought about that. And I said, yeah, I am trained to do what I do.

- And that makes a whole world of difference.

- Makes a difference.

- And with experience.

- With experience. So that means that I had to train them. And once I got that going, everything just kind of leveled out. And I spent, well I'm gonna tell you what happened. Not too long ago, well let's see. This is '04, '05. Back about '05, they got into real trouble down there. And they called, they went through two directors down there. So somebody on the board said, well why don't we call Mr. Gumby and ask him to come back down here and fix this place up? And so they did. And I went down. And I told them I said well, you know, I'm not looking for any job. And I said, my wife's sick, I'm trying to take care of her and all that. And they said, oh, Mr. Gumby, said sir, we need you down here. Said we'll pay you. So you know, I rely on Ros and Brendan and them. They've been through the mill now and they're retired and that sort of thing. And I said guys, what do you think? And they said don't you dare go down near that place. Said in the first place, they act like they're getting ready to fold up, and they said if you're there when it happens, they said, your name will be all over this town. Said we wouldn't be able to take it. Well I had never thought of it like that. Because I really hadn't thought about if I went down there it was gonna fail, you know what I mean? That was me thinking. But they were thinking just, so I had to lean toward that. So I told them no. But I said I'll tell you what I'll do. I said I'll come down here, and show you what to do to get things straight. And I won't charge you anything. I said now how do you like that? Oh, they said, we want you to come, well I said no. I'm not gonna hire on, I said I had enough of that. I had enough of that. And I don't want any more headaches like that. I said, but you give me a person that you think that'll understand what it is that we need to do here and come get it done. And I'll take 'em through the ropes. Show them how to do it, lead them through. Carry their hand if you want me to. So they said, well. Okay. So I went down. And in the meantime, I had a lady that was pretty smart, that I'd worked for before down there. And she had ran into some health problems, but anyhow, she got squared away. And I ran into her one day and I told her, I said, you know what? I said I can get you a job down there, as a director of a place. You know, if you wanna take it. I said I'll help you, I said, I don't wanna be paid. I just don't, I said because, I said now when you go in there I said everything that we did when I was there before, they did away with that, I said that's why they're in trouble. I said they don't have any directives. No management directives, you know. Don't even have an organizational chart. I don't know how they were running it. And I said all of that's gone. And I said if you're willing to deal with that, and to kind of work that back up again. So she went in there and I think she stayed on there a couple years until they got a director. And they were paying pretty close to $100,000. Which is not always the money that you need. I still have a good spot in my heart and my mind for the place because it's the first place that I went to work after I got out of the military. And I had to relearn a lot of things about civilian life that I had forgotten about. And that place taught them to me.

- And your family by this time was living right here?

- Oh yeah they were all living right here. I had two girls graduated from KU. I had...

- Okay and may I have, okay, and their names, please?

- Yeah. Rosalind.

- Yeah, Rosalind, she gave me her graduation.

- Right. And the other one was Arvetta. Arvetta, her name is now Arvetta Gumby Pruitt. She graduated from KU.

- Was she about what years, do you remember the years?

- Oh let me see.

- Is she older or younger than Ros?

- She's younger than Ros.

- Okay.

- So, she was, she graduated after Ros did.

- Okay. Okay.

- I think Ros has got her master's from over there too, I believe. Yeah. She's pretty smart.

- So, well that's good. Did your wife ever work outside the home?

- Oh yes, my wife was a schoolteacher.

- Where did she teach?

- She finished that one, and she taught in the Kansas City School District downtown here.

- Okay.

- She taught the elementary. Yeah. Oh my goodness yeah. And she was a music teacher too, that's why we got them instruments there.

- Oh, she's music as well.

- Yeah, she's music too.

- Did you ever join any veteran's organizations or activities after the military or during the military? The only one I belong to is the DAB. Disabled American Veterans. As far as I'm concerned it's the best one.

- Why do you say that?

- Well, they give more help to veterans than anybody.

- But you yourself are not disabled, are you?

- No, no I'm fine.

- Those are the ones that you are dedicated to.

- Every year, I give them a monetary donation. Anybody that I find gets into any kind of difficulty, the headquarters in St. Louis. I give them a number, tell them who to call. Tell them say I'm having some problems, get back with me. And they would never fail to get the kind of help that they need. And as a matter of fact, I'm helping a widow now, whose husband was a friend of mine. Who lived in Cleveland. And as a matter of fact I gotta call her right back, after I finish talking to you. And give her some information. But it's a good organization.

- How do you think the military experience has influenced your life?

- Well. I think that... One of the great things that I learned, I guess, from... The military has sort of a culture all of its own. And what I mean by that is that they have a form of buddy system, in the military, where, they help people who seem to be in need of help. Financial help, whatever kind of help they get. And they rush together and surround that person. Group of them, and help them. In other words, it's like we take care of our own, okay? We need more of that everywhere, out here. The other thing is, I learned that unless you're really committed to getting something done, that, you're not, you know, with the commitment has to also go the dedication. And with that of course, goes, comes the results, which is normally good. So, you learned to cop this kind of stance, that if it's worth doing, it's worth giving it your best. It's worth giving your best. You also learn that number one, that we all might talk the same. Some of us might look the same. But we all don't think and do the same things. And so you learn a tolerance for that. You learn a patience for that. And there are some people who work hard at things. As hard as they can, but never seem to get anywhere. And so with just a word here, one word here or just a little movement here, it just sets them up so that they can go get that done, without any more difficulty. Then I guess, one of the great things I think I learned from military was to be patient. I learned the act of being patient, because, patience, according to the scripture, does its perfect work when you are patient. And don't rush to conclusions. Stop and take a look at things, and maybe what that person's doing, they don't know what else to do. Or they don't know how to do it any better or efficiently. And so, you learn to have some tolerance of that. And it works, it works. It works. Lot of politics in the military. Lot of politics everywhere. And so you deal with them as you meet them, whatever comes up, and with them sometimes, there's always some, politics as I always say, are relative. It's who's playing them and why he's going that way, or why she's going that way. Or what aims they're gonna get out of it. And maybe you might get a little something off it, maybe you might not. It's one of the things that I think has gotten us sort of into the bind that we're in now, you know? Because there are certain groups of people who might have lots of wealth and lots of money who want things to go the way they want them to go. You know, we know that they might have an impact on somebody else further down the road. And usually do.

- Well I thank you very much for your time.

- Oh I enjoyed it.

- And sharing this, and we'll probably have to talk again. So thank you very much.

- Be glad to.

- Appreciate it. Thank you.