- July the 12th, 2011. And this is an interview with Mr. Robert Reed, of Lawrence, Kansas. And I thank you, Mr. Reed, for taking time to conduct this interview with us, and share your story about your World War II experiences, and your life experiences in general. So we'll begin with some very basic questions about you. Let's find out when and where you were born? Where did you grow up, and who your parents were, what schools you attended, that sort of thing. - Okay. - Just background information. - Well I was born in 1924. - Is that what you told me when you told me last night? Sorry, Kate. - In Des Moines, Iowa, and my family moved from Des Moines, a little before I was two years old, and we moved to Topeka, Kansas. And we resided at 1135, approximately, Lane Street, for a while, and that was next to the Charles Scott Family, Eilsha Scott Family, Eilsha Scott, with is his sons, Charles and John, who participated in the Brown versus Board of Education. Then we moved, when I was approximately three years old, to 1125 Lincoln Street, that was a block east of Lane Street and that's where I grew up. I went to school at Buchanan School, in Topeka, Kansas. That was about two and a half blocks from my house, and the school teacher there, who I remember the most was Morgan Maxwell, who taught the 8th grade, and he was a very efficient teacher, and when I left the grade school before Brown versus Board of Education, when I left there to go to junior high, I was well prepared. - Buchanan was a school designated for African Americans in Topeka, Kansas, is that correct? - Well that was one of the schools, - Right, one of the-- Yeah, yeah, and that was in the center of what we called Tennessee Town. Tennessee Town was named that because many of the the blacks came out of Tennessee, and settled in the middle of Topeka there, which was called Tennessee Town. - And so you attended Topeka High School? - Yes, after I attended junior high school, which was a traumatic experience, because we were shifted from this grade school, into junior high late, and then we were put in classes with younger children who had been in junior high for a year or so. I didn't like it a bit. And then we went from there went to the mixed, and the junior high was mixed, and then the high school was mixed, that was Topeka High School. - Okay, when, you know, Buchanan School went through the 8th grade, and they were keeping all of the African American students through the 8th grade, and then shifting them to junior high, is that correct? - To the junior high, yes. - And what junior high did you attend? - Boswell. - Boswell, mm-hmm, right, so when that, and what, was that in the, what years was that in, the '30s? - Yeah, that was in the '30s. That was in, shoulda been... - Oh, that's okay, just in the '30s, because that was before one of the cases they challenged with the junior highs, okay. - Oh yeah. - Okay, so after, so you graduated from Topeka High, and then what did you do? - Well, after I graduated from Topeka High, Europe was in a turmoil, and there was not to much for high school graduates to do, at that time, but to either go to school, or try to get a job somewhere. And let's see, I... - Yeah, I'd say so. - Okay, I was biding my time while Hitler was ravaging Europe. - What were you doing? - Like, oh, nothing. I was just out of high school, and so I was doing nothing, but I do remember what my high school principal said, one of the reasons I called him such a great principal, because he knew how to keep me busy, and whereas many teachers didn't know how to do that, and he said, "Well, Bobby," they called me Bobby in those days, some people still do, in Topeka, "And one day, Hitler is going to have big problems, "You have to look at this globe as a big apple, "And one day, Hitler's gonna take too big a bite "Outta this big apple, "And it'll probably be Poland, "And when that happens, "We're gonna have some big problems." The next year, Hitler marched into Poland, and that's when everything happened. So there was such a thing as the NYA, and the NYA was training us to have some kind of skills, because the call was out for workers to go to the various plants in the United States. And so I took up welding in the NYA. And I became a welder, and was told by my teachers that I would do well on the West Coast, so I went to Seattle, to work in the ship yards. And because I also had an uncle there, in Seattle. Well, when I got to the shipyards, as with all minorities, men and women, they still wouldn't allow us to be complete, skilled welders, because they would have to pay us the same money as the white people, and women too. Black women went west, and they invaded from the south. Many southerners rolled west, women and men, and they got jobs in the plants. But the black women, their job was clean-up work. I was a welder, partially, but I was what you would call a tack welder, which paid me less than a full-time welder. A tack welder is one who puts the pieces together, and tacks 'em in a short space, and holds it for the main welder to come along and weld the whole seam, the whole line. And of course, they got away with that. And of course, let's see, was it 1940, the day Phil Randolph went to, had this great march on Washington? And telling the country, you know, what we needed to do, and then there was Kaiser, who went and spoke personally with President Roosevelt, and said, "Now we can't get this production done "Unless you allow blacks to work on these assembly lines." So even though we're fighting the enemy, we had to fight for jobs then. So okay, I worked at that job until my number was called for the draft. And I tried to get a deferment for a while, because I knew if I obtained a deferment I may do better when I went into the service, and besides, I actually was accepted to Washington University, because I was a tennis player. But I couldn't make it into Washington University, for the simple reason that my number was up, and they called me into the draft, and I had to go into the service. And that was in 19 and 43. - So this is Wash U, in St. Louis? - No, in Washington State. - Okay, in the state of Washington. Okay, what did your family, or friends, what did they think about the war at the time, before you left? - Before I left? - Right, uh-huh, were they talking about it? What was your family or your friends attitudes? - Oh, yeah, they were talking about the war. Everyone was talking about the war, and of course, one of the famous words there was, about Jody, I don't know whether you heard of Jody, but Jody was the fella who was always left behind, Jody's got your gal and gone, because we had to go to war, and the 4F's, a person who couldn't qualify to go to war, was left there and he had all the gals. But no, it was the job situation at home in Topeka, was the same as ever, and that is that blacks only had the menial jobs. And we had waiters jobs, and women could only get jobs working in Miss Ann's Kitchen, and or being maids, and so that was it. - Did your parents support the war, or before you were drafted, did they support it? - Oh yes, they supported the war. Most parents supported the war, at the time in my town. There was no rebellion as I have ever heard against any, blacks rebelling anywhere against the war. Blacks were very supportive of the war, any time and whenever we got to any outfits, there were no blacks saying, "I don't like this." or "I don't want to do this.", no. - What was race relations like in Topeka? And at the ship yards, where you were in California, how would you describe, what was race relations like? - Well race relations in Topeka is, was first you know your place, you're not going to get to do anything but work for the man in whatever menial jobs he had for you. And then back to my high school situation, we had slight race riots in the high school, and I might have instigated some of it, or talked about it, because I was an athlete, and we had a black basketball team, and also I was the only black in the school that knew how to play tennis, and I wanted to play tennis, I was good tennis player, but I would go and watch 'em practice in this big, beautiful gym, and playing tennis, and I couldn't play, so there was an uprising. The principal at that time was named Principal Van Slack. And he was a nice man, but he used to call me in the office periodically, and say, "Well, Bobby, what can I do? "Why is all this uprising going on?" I say, "Well you have the best football players "In the high school, that you won't let play "On the high school football team, "You have a separate basketball team, "We only get two basketballs to practice with," and but we have our little teams, the Rambler's, and of course, there's records of the Rambler's at the Topeka High School, and I said, I never will forget telling him, "We just wanted to be a part of the school. "Just let us be able to participate, "Then everything will be all right." Well the year after I graduated, they finally let one person play on the football team, and then they took a while, then they finally saw the light, and integrated things. And after our little Rambler basketball team, of which only a few blacks knew about basketball, every saw or heard of a basketball, ran the varsity off the court one day, beat 'em playin' . Then they decided that maybe they might make a change. And one other very important thing about the high school, you see, in the high school at the time, when we went in to choose our subjects in the school, they advised us to just take the easiest subjects and get out of school, because we weren't going to be anything, or not going to do anything, they always advised all the blacks to take social studies, and whatnot. There were a few geniuses in the school, of which one of 'em was my brother, he was a stone genius, and he was, Saul Dice, a Jew, was his homeroom teacher, and noticed it, and guided my brother along the proper paths. And of course, he graduated, he was my older brother, so he graduated before me, so therefore, he put in a little time in school, before he went into the service. But for most of us, it was, you know, just no, don't take physics, or chemistry, or math or anything, just get out of school, you know. So and this is the way it was, from what I hear, across the country. And that's why it was difficult to get started in the proper professions where we want to be. And of course, I wished that I had got in that one year of college, so I could have got with the Tuskegee Airmen because many of 'em came from, were my friends in my hometown. - You know, when you said that there was a little uprising when you wanted to be a part of the tennis team in Topeka High, can you kinda describe to me the nature of that uprising? - The nature? - Uh-huh, what was it? Was a petition protest, or? - It was a, there were a few little skirmishes, the black students congregated on the-- - Second floor? - Second floor. So here we are, on the second floor. The white students would have to go around us, and I don't know, what really caused it, but at one time during this possible uprising, the white students, I never will forget it, were here, and they were all, you know, glaring at us, and everything, there was just a few of us, just you know, say 200 black students, they weren't all on the floor, all of our big men weren't on the floor, they were just a few, plus I was just tall and skinny. I wasn't bad, you know, but they didn't have the nerve to come and get us, but then outside the school, when the police became involved, you know, we were loitering outside the school, you know, how kids do to, to either start something or see what's going on, and they, I never will forget, this plain-cloth's policeman, hit me on the spine with his blackjack, and of course, my grandmother raised particular kane about something like that, but then there was a good friend of mine who later went to the Marines, and he was pure gut, and he didn't want anything happening to his friends, so he picked out the biggest ones, the biggest fellas in the school, the football players, when he was comin' up the steps, he laid into him, and so they had their little skirmish for a while, and then afterwards, it began to clear up, but it was just unrest that we knew we were not getting a fair shake at the school. And then the cafeteria was another thing. At noon, the cafeteria smelled oh, so delicious, white kids had money to go to the cafeteria, and buy the nice dinner, oh, I can smell it now, you know? We didn't, you know, most of the time I went home for lunch, which was good for me anyway, because I ran, I was gettin' in shape, but I would smell the cafeteria, and sometimes we would go in there, and maybe order mashed potatoes and gravy, and that was a hell of a good lunch. - So the cafeteria was off limits because it, because of the money, not because they excluded African American's from eating. - Yeah, you just didn't have the money to purchase, to eat, to purchase lunch. - Who was the gentleman you referred to as having a lot of guts and went into the Marines, do you remember his name? - Yeah, William Kanaday, I grew up with him. He lived around the corner from me. And we would get up early in the morning and ride our bicycles all over town, and just have a good time. - Oh, that's good. So tell us, you had described to some detail, and I don't know whether you want to add to it, but what were your circumstances surrounding your entry into World War II? - The circumstances? - You've already said you were working in the shipyards, right? - Yeah, I was working, knowing that I was going to be drafted from Washington State, Seattle, because I was working there, at the Bremerton Shipyards, and so I was just drafted in the service, and was sent to Fort Huachuca, Arizona, for basic training. - How did you, did you have to go to your, you received a draft notice? - Yes. - Did you have to, where did you go to the draft board? - Seattle, Washington. - Okay, what was that like? Was it, was the board comprised of whites, what did it look like, who were the? - Oh, the people who ran the draft board, yeah, everything was white in those days, you know, - So you brought in your draft notice, and then what happened? - I was in the army. - Okay, what did that process involve? What did you have to do to get ready to get into the army? - Oh, you had a physical, to see if you were physically able, able-bodied man, so to speak, or kid, rather. went into the service. Then they issued you your clothing, and all, and before you know it, you're on a train headed to Fort Huachuca, Arizona. - When you were headed toward the training camp in Arizona, was this a training camp where only African Americans attended, or was it a training camp where everybody attended, but there was segregated units? - No, Fort Huachuca is a big camp, with yeah, segregated units. - But there were white units on the, at that camp, and black units. - I think, I don't recall, you know, seeing any, but that's a big fort, that's a big desert. - So what unit did you train with? - I trained with the 780 Military, Combat Military Police. - And everybody in your unit was African American? - Yes, all except the officers, yeah. - What did you, what particular attitude did you have as a soldier, participating in the war? What attitude, how did you, what was your perception of your being drafted and serving in World War II? - Oh, I just knew it was one of those things that we were supposed to do for our country. As far as getting along with my fellow man, well, it depended on what outfit I was in. - What did you think about your military training? You want to say anything about it, what some of your experiences were with your training? - Yes, some of my military training was a continuation of my Boy Scout training. The soldiers who didn't have the Boy Scout training were sometimes couldn't handle certain situations that we were taught. Sometimes they ate C-rations, and I would cook a complete meal, because I knew from Boy Scouts, how to find certain things, you know, dig up a potato somewhere, find somebody's chicken, and bury it in the coals in the ground, and I've got a perfect meal. - In terms of your training, what did you like the most about it? - I can't say I liked any part of my, I didn't like any part of my basic training. It wasn't anything to really like, I got along with it. When I transferred out of that outfit, I was able to get into certain jobs that I had responsibility, and that was the important thing for me, to have responsibility, believe it or not, that kept me busy. And it's always been that way with me. - So you weren't fond of the training, but what was your daily routine like with that training? You remember, or what do you remember about it? - Oh, yeah sure, the daily routine was marching, and some long marches, and drilling, and of course, marching never bothered me, for some reason. I didn't have foot problems, like some had, I was fortunate. And when we had long marches, and we would stop for a break, I and another fella always decided this was a good time to have foot races. and so I just said, "Why don't you guys sit down, "It just makes me tireder." But we were fortunate enough to be in exceptional health. - Were your sergeant's black or white? - Sergeant's, oh, CO's, all the noncom's were black. Or we would have really been in big trouble if we'd have had white noncom's at that time. It was bad enough having white, non-commissioned officers, but we were, that was just the way it was. It was white non-commissioned officers and black non-commissioned officers, and the black non-commissioned officers, were normally older soldiers that had, maybe some of them had volunteered, but they were older than we were, and many of them were ignorant, and so you matched that with a person who has a decent education, and you're gonna have fire. And so I had a few ups and downs with some of the black noncoms, and until I was in a productive outfit. - What was your relationship with some of the white officers? Both non-commissioned and otherwise? Do you remember anything? - Oh yeah, I remember a colonel who ran the, who was the battalion commander, that is actually a god in the outfit, and we were in North Africa, and at that time, you know, that was a French colony, actually, and the Arab people there were hungry and everything, and they were hustling to do whatever they could, and our company commander, this colonel, called them in together, and said, "I want you to know, I hope I'm not messing that up. - No, that's okay. - "I want you to know that this is what we do "To people who steal from our outfit." and they had beaten these Arabs. And everybody was quiet but me, the whole battalion, and I jumped up and said, "You mean you're gonna let this damn colonel "Say that and do that to these men? "That's against the - Geneva Convention, yeah. - law of the war, or something, you know. And of course the next minute I was in the guard house, and you know, it didn't matter to me, but there I was in the guardhouse. - What was that like? - Oh, that was okay, that was... Let's see, the building was about this long, yeah, it was about this long, yeah, it was exactly this long, and you couldn't stretch out in it, and it was tin, and it was out in the sun, in Africa. - How long did you have to stay there? - A week, on bread and water. And of course, the third day, you got out and got more bread, I think maybe on the third day we got food, or something like that. I lost a little weight. But then, oh yeah, and then before that time, too, when we were in, I guess we were in Fort Deven's, Mass, we had transferred I think, from Fort Huachuca to Fort Deven's, Massachusetts. And we had come in off of a march, and I had gotten wind of the fact that the sergeant might have been selling some of the food, or something, and so I accused him of it, and I was a pretty boy, so he thought he had a pushover, so he was a big, bad sergeant, so he cold-cocked me while I wasn't looking, right in the mess hall. And so I grabbed him from behind the counter, and dragged him out and I was beatin' on him, and I was beatin' on him, and I ended up right under the captain's table, and the captain said, "Don't you know that you can get a general court-martial "For hitting a non-commissioned officer?" I said, "Yes sir!" So I didn't like the outfit, and when we were sailing over to, to France from Africa, then I saw a colonel, and told him my story, and I said, "You know, I want a transfer, "I want to be doing something, "I'm doing nothing here "But, you know, having troubles, "There's nothing to do." "And some people, you know, "Trying to take advantage of me, "I'm not a good soldier. "I would be if I was leading or doing something." "Well, I'll see about it." he got me a transfer, I went to this quartermaster outfit, and the battalion supply sergeant, the highest, the highest rank you could get as a non-commissioned officer, now I'm a lowly private, but this warrant officer looked at my record, and he said, "But Reed, you can do most anything." I said, "Sure." he said, "Okay, you take over supply. "You have now the highest rank "Of noncom in the United States Army." I said, "Yeah, where's the money?" he said, "Ratings are frozen." But I didn't mind, because I was busy, I was supply over everything. He' said, "Now go down to the motor pool, "Get you a car, "Because you're gonna have to drive into town, "To pick up supplies, food supplies, "Half a cow here, you know, "A hundred of these, a thousand of these." and I said, "I can't drive." he said, "Well there's a thousand cars down there, "Go wreck 'em until you learn to drive, "Because you're gonna take over this." And I was happy, that's what I did, and I took that over, and I was happy doing that job. - I hate to keep going back to the training, but do you remember, what was some of your off-duty activities when you were at this training camp in Arizona? Or do you remember? - There were, I didn't go to the border. Nogales was a terrible border. We used to send some of our troops down there to bring some of the men back from Mexico, because they would, you know, get across the border, and really get messed up in the head with what they were drinking. And I wasn't drinking that much at the time, and so I didn't go out from Fort Huachuca base, it was a wild base. - So what kind of, how did you spend your off-duty time? - Oh, in the tent, on the base. Most of the young soldiers stayed right on the fort there. - Who were some of your, do you remember any of your buddies that you met there? Or any of the people you were fond of? - Well, let's see, there was one little fella, and I used to remember his name, I met him in Omaha, I ran across him, and he was a good buddy. He stuck with me through, I had to laugh how he stuck with me through thick and thin, he said, "Yeah, you shoulda hit him again." and I said, "You better get away from me, "You'll get in trouble too." And he was a nice little guy. - Were there any of your friends from Topeka in your unit with you? - No. - It was all, everyone was from other places? - Yes, most of these guys were from, no, a lot of 'em were from California and Texas, Mississippi. - Now that you've mentioned it, I don't know whether this is correct, after your training you went to Massachusets? - Well yeah, we trained in, see the army sometimes gets things mixed up. We were training to go overseas in Fort Huachuca, and we were training at the time, probably to go to Africa. Because Fort Huachuca's desert, just like Africa, both of 'em hot as hell. So we went to Newport News, Virginia, to get on the boat, and they changed their mind and brought us back, and shipped us up to Fort Devens, Mass. Into the cold, and of course, that's where I liked it, where it was cold. Because the heat was a little too much for me. And then from Fort Devans, Massachusetts, then, to show you how mixed up they were, then they shipped us to Africa, from Fort Devans, Massachusetts. - And so what unit were you in when you were in when you-- - Fort Devans? I was still in the 780 MP. - Okay, what about when you were on the ship? Was it a different unit or whatever? - No, it was the same unit going over, but then when I got to France, I was able to transfer to this other outfit, in Fos-sur-Mer, France. - Do you remember, what was the other outfit? - I don't remember the number, it was a long number. - So what did that unit do? What was the main responsibility then? - It was supply. - Tell me what that, tell me what that. Mr. Reed, about your travel on the, across the Atlantic from Massachusetts. - Just a lot of guys got sick on the way over. And me being a chow hound, I would tell a fella, "You know, you look mighty ill." "And you really don't want that food." So I, you know, ate pretty good, and got sick every now and then, myself, but you know, it was okay, it was crowded. - What were your sleeping quarters like? - Oh, crowded, but okay. You know, bunk beds. One was here, and the next guy here, and the next guy here. Typical troop ship transportation. - Did you all encounter any trouble traveling across the Atlantic? With the Germans or anything? - No. - What was was the, who were the navy people on the ship? Were there any navy, I mean, not navy, but people in the navy, army, navy, who were on the ship, who were, you know, manning the ship? - That would be civilians, because a lot of 'em were merchant marines. Yeah, my brother-in-law to be, before we left Seattle, Washington, I got him into merchant marines, because he wanted to go to the merchant marines, and got him in that just before he woulda been called into the service. Which was a very dangerous job, more so than the army. - So when you got to Africa, do you remember what some of your first experiences were? You've already mentioned some of them, but other than being incarcerated in a tin can? - The first experience was, my very first experience when we got to Africa. I was eating lunch, and was hungry, as usual, me being a chow hound, and the sands were blowing, and the sand was blowing into your mess kit, into your eating utensils, and you're still eating it. And then I looked up, and said, "Just what the hell are you lookin' at?" and I was talking to this camel. This camel was lookin' at me. - So you were eating outside? - Oh yeah, yeah. We were campin' out, outside. This was with, you know, hundreds of thousands of men, you know, landing on the landing areas. They called 'em staging areas, where we were. - So what did the camel say? Anything in particular? - Yeah, - So once you got there, then what other things happened? Do you remember? What kind of things did you engage in? - Well no, we went to our quarters, and settled in. Then we were, our job was to guard certain areas, certain food supply things, or ammunition dumps, and everything. So that's what the MPs were doing, so we were doing that, that's about it. - And you were serving as an MP? - Yeah. - Any incidents happen while you were there? Anything you remember, what's you favorite memory of that experience in North Africa? - No, except that... I mean, there was one thing, when we were on guard duty in Africa, North Africa, it could get so dark that you almost couldn't see your hand in front of your face, and you're trying to guard a big operation of food and whatnot. Sometimes you couldn't do a very good job of it. - So from Africa, where did you go? - From Africa, after, as I say, after we left Africa, we went to France, yeah. We took a boat and landed in Marseille, France. - What was that like when you first got there? - Oh, just another supply fort, and that's where we were for a while. Until I was able to get my transfer to that other outfit. - And that's where you got the transfer? And so what was it like when you transferred to the other unit that you wanted? - Well, like I said before, when I transferred to that unit, and I never will forget the warrant officer looking at my record and saying, "Well Reed, we know you can do anything and everything, "And our master sergeant is leaving, "And so you go down and take over his job, you know, "You have that responsibility." Well, I was very happy, I was busy, and so that, and from that time on, they never lost a pound of meat, or a gallon of gas, or any clothing or anything, because I had recorded and kept everything in line. - What was it like when you were doing it? Is that duty 24 hours? What was your duty like? What were, kinda the hours you'd spend doing it? - Oh, I suppose 10 hours or more. You know, as a youngster you don't worry about hours if you're doing something fun. If you think you have the responsibility and all. - What did you do for social life? Were you ever on, did you ever have free time? - We were stationed in this little town of Fos-sur-Mer, it means "Fos-on-the-sea", and it was a beautiful little peaceful town. And yeah, there were other people there. - So what I'm trying to get at, Mr. Reed, is what did you do socially? - Well, I was a swimmer also, so we were on the sea, and I used to go swimming, and even at night, I wouldn't sleep, I would go swim in the sea, it was nice and peaceful. And one of my friends decided that she was going to make some swimming trunks for me, so she made swimming trunks for me, and I would swim up and down the water, along the beaches, along the shores there, and just have a great time. - And who was she again? Who was your friend again? Who was your friend? - Oh, just a woman there in Fos-sur-Mer. - Did you go to parties or anything like that, or restaurants, or something like that? - Some, but not that much social, not that much social life with the natives, so to speak. I guess we could have, they were very sociable. Sometimes they would keep us up. See, the French liked to party, and in all the little villages that you always had a, what do you call, the circle? - Oh, the town square? - Town square, yeah, they all had the town square. And they all, the French would work three days, and party two or three, or four. And they'd have this party, and they would play this accordion, and they ♪ Oom Pah Pah, Oom Pah Pah ♪ and they all dance around the square, and it's the same dance all the time, ♪ Oom Pah Pah, Oom Pah Pah ♪ ♪ Oom Pah Pah, Oom Pah Pah ♪ they're going around the square, just dancin'. And of course, we would watch, and because you couldn't get any sleep that night. and so that's what it was, and of course, we went into the bar and drank. Course, some time I drank a little too much, in the bars, as many young soldiers did. The cognac was wonderful, and it was, I never will forget, it was called eau de vie, but many of my soldier buddies, I didn't try to keep up with because many of 'em were getting to much of that stuff, and they were probably coming home alcoholics. - Was there any sort of thing, direction from the US, about your socializing with the-- - From the US? - Uh-huh, or from your unit-- - Oh, we had fights with white soldiers. Oh yeah, we had fights with. And then the army discovered the town, I never will forget, and they decide to make it a total resort for the soldiers coming back in to rest. Of course, my name in the town was le gran soldat, and so this guy, so a white soldier came up to a, and this happened all throughout the war, everywhere, and told this girl that knew me, said, "Yeah, they got tails." she said, "Well I'm gonna go get him, "And I want you to see his tail." And so that would end that, they would never proceed, you know, any further. - When you were over now, were you in any other place other than France? - The European Theater, some places, sometimes I didn't know exactly-- - So you kept moving around? - Where I was. I moved around a little bit. Because you see, toward the end of the war, they begin to dismantle these outfits, some of these outfits. And so they would place us in various spots. But it was the European Theater listed on my discharge. - When you were there, any particular danger to your life, did you encounter? Were troops from opposing forces there, or were you away from the-- - No, I wasn't in combat itself, and of course, there were situations that you, you know, get into sometimes, or you may get too close to the enemy, or something, and back off, or there's a nut someplace. But generally, no, I wasn't in that. And of course, being a, you know, crazy kid, when the Battle of the Bulge came along, because that year it was a very, I forget the year, but it was very cold. And it was uncomfortable everywhere, so I said, "Well hell, I'll just volunteer "For the Battle of the Bulge." and that was the fiercest battle, one of the most fierce battles of the war. That was the last push of Nazi Germany to try to break out. I don't know, you may have seen part of the movie, of the Battle of the Bulge, but one thing about it, was the Red Ball Express. You see, blacks could drive much better than the white kids, for some reason, the tiny. I never will forget, sitting in my town there where I was, and I knew when it was the Red Ball, because when they would approach a hill, it was perfect timing, they would approach a hill, and it would go and then I started count, one-two-three, one-two-three, In other words, each Red Ball express trucker knew when to shift that gear, to keep that supply line going, at a decent pace. And in that movie, it was where the Germans, the general was showing this other general this fresh cake, and he said, "You see this fresh cake? "They're getting a fresh cake of supplies through here, "To keep things going, "So what do you think they're doing "With ammunition and guns, and what not? "If they can get a cake through, "They're getting everything through." And it was the Red Ball. - So as a supply officer, you met with the Red Ball? That's who you had to-- - Oh no, I didn't meet with 'em, we were just an extended arm, whatever, if we had to do anything with 'em, well I didn't know about it. I just used to hear 'em from afar, you know? - Right, so you could make sure. So you volunteered for the Battle of the Bulge? - Uh huh. - So did you? - I didn't go, because what happened, they had broken out and won it. - When you volunteered, where they were looking for, there was no exclusion of African Americans serving in combat, or was there? - Oh yeah, they reason that they were taking everybody for the Battle of the Bulge at that time, is because they needed people up there. We were losing, and so, "Yeah, we'll take you black boys." and they started taking blacks. But Donelly, no, they didn't take us in those outfits. And of course, when I went into, when I was drafted into the service, they asked me what I wanted to be, I said, "Well preferably, I want to go into the Air Force, "Because I have the eyesight and everything, "I can see like an eagle, "I can see a thousand miles." But if I'd have just had that one year of college, I probably would have gone with some of 'em. But then I said, "Well okay, I can't get that, "I want to go into the tank corps." "No, you can't do that." Most of the tank corps were white, but they did have a black tank corps, which was very famous in Italy. And one of the stories, which I believe was true, of course, this may or may, should I tell it? It may or may not be true. - Whatever you want to do, yeah, you go on and tell it. - Well, if you're familiar with Italy, you know there's nothing but hills and mountains, and what not. And the white tank commander came up to Patton, and you're familiar with, you've heard of Patton, outspoken? And the tank commander said, "Well we can't get our tanks over those mountains. "Yeah, we can't get our tanks over those mountains." And Patton said, he said, "Well bring me my niggers, "They can get any tank over those mountains." - Sounds good, sounds good. - And they came over the mountains with the tanks. - When you were over there, what other things did you experience in terms of race relations among the US soldiers? Any experiences you had there that you remember? - No, 'course the white soldiers were, you know, taught to be, you know, have their own outfits and all, and they didn't want anything to do with us. And only in service positions. And the then navy especially, that was a lily white situation for a long time. - Well you're working as a supply officer, who was around you? Were there other whites working in that same capacity, or similar capacity? - Oh, no, this was a black outfit. Now I worked with a German prisoner, I was able to use German prisoners, and this German prisoner was about 17 years old, and smart as a whip, so I could just turn him lose on my supplies, large fuel tanks, and he knew how to figure them just like I did. We was both, no, when trucks came through and got so much gas, end of the day, everything checked out perfectly. - Where did he stay? - In the prisoners quarters. - Was that near where your unit was? - Yeah, uh-huh. - When did you, I want to ask about your leaving the European Theater. Do you remember anything about when you were leaving, and how you left, and that sort of thing? - When I was coming home? - Yes, uh-huh. - Well, yeah, I do. I was anxious to come home, which everybody, everyone would be, and I had this infected right hand, but I don't know how I got it, but you know, young kids, things happen. And I wanted to be sure and get home, so I stuck my hand in my pocket and was able to get on the plane, and while we're flying I said, "Oh, I hope this thing doesn't blow up." And it's getting bigger every minute, I couldn't hardly get it out of my pocket after I got it in. Then when I got to Fort Lewis, Washington, they immediately put me in the hospital, and the, you could see the discoloration of the vein going up the arm to my shoulder. And they said, "Well you just about to lose this arm." and they said, "You could lose it, "But we're gonna take care of it." And so when they lanced it, the pus hit the ceiling, and so I was there a couple of weeks or more, and then I was discharged, and I started home. And I stopped in Chicago first, because that's where my mother and aunts were, and my sister was. - What was that homecoming like? - Oh, it was, you know, I was king. - So when you came home on the train? - Yes, uh-huh. - Did they meet you at the train station in Chicago? - I don't know, probably somebody did, somebody had to pick me up. And then I got home to, from there, to Topeka, and I was already married at the time. - You were married before you went overseas? - Mm-hmm, before. - Did you write letters home, during while you were overseas? - Yeah, I remember writing one letter to my sister. I said, "If I ever get out of this, "I'll do the dishes from now on for ya." - So in your view, how did you view your participation in the war? What was were some of the challenges, what were the things about it you didn't like? - That I didn't like? - Mm-hmm. - I didn't like the, definitely was the main thing was the lack of opportunity, and the ignorance of some of my superiors. And just the fact that I had a high school education, and sometimes, I never will forget, sitting with a group of black soldiers in another outfit, and one of 'em was a sergeant, and we were talking and whatnot, and they all agreed, we were all frustrated, because they all agreed, they said, "Yeah, Reed, we wish we could have had you as our officer, "Instead of these nut-pots." And of course, they would make, white officers, they would get the job easy enough, and also, many of the black, non-commissioned officers were not qualified, because they were picked by the white, southern officers. - When you, in general, how did you view your participation in the war? Then and now, how did you view it? - Oh, it was an educational experience. It was something that we had to do, and so, I saw part of the world that I never would have seen, and I'm lucky and thankful to be back. - When you got back, how did you pursue work? What was that like, pursuing work? - Well, I pursued work for about a year, and I had several jobs. I went to work for the Santa Fe, and because that's where we could get jobs, in the Santa Fe shops as laborers. - Did you join the union? - Probably so. - It was a union shop I think, by that time. So what kind of things did you do at the shops? - Well we were in the warehouse, and that was just lifting heavy objects. And so, moving train wheels, 200 pound kegs of nails. - Okay, when you came back did you have it, find it difficult to find a job because you had been in the war, or did you find it difficult, or had you? - No, didn't find it difficult, and also, being a hustler, too, there were waiters jobs, that after one job I would be able to wait table, and things like that. - So who did you marry, and where? - I married the prettiest woman in Topeka. And her name was Opal Mitchell, and she was a high school sweetheart, and she also could play tennis. And she lived on the south side of town. And before I went into the service, why we were pretty close, and when I was in Fort Devens, Massachusetts, getting ready to go overseas, why I had her come to Fort Devens, Mass, and visit me, and she stayed with me a while, and it was in Ayer, Massachusetts, that we got married. There was a colonel that was a chaplain, let's see, did the chaplain marry me or what? There was a colonel that was a chaplain in one of the black regiments, I think maybe 366th, I'm not for sure whether it was 366th, but it was a black infantry regiment, but he was a, you know, still a man without morals, and tried to keep my new wife in Fort Devens, Mass, you know, tried to keep her from going home before I left, wanted me to leave, so I had a little go around with him, and this was a black outfit. And you know, you never know what's gonna happen. But then I finally got her on the train, and got her outta there. But he tried to make it official. - When you got back home, so where did you live when you got back home? - I lived with my mother-in-law, Lillian Mitchell, on the south side of town. And I lived with my, where I grew up, with the mother who reared me was my grandmother, actually. - And who was that? What was her name? - Her name was Lulu J. McAlister, and her husband's name was William McAlister. And the reason being that it happened that way, is that my mother was a school teacher, and being a school teacher, she had to take whatever job she could find, the school teachers, all of the local, you know, black schools were filled, so she was a school teacher for Pierce Edition School, in Topeka, which was a big, one-room schoolhouse out on the east side, near Highland Park. - And it was outside the Topeka District at that time. - Yeah, uh-huh. But then my grandparents had to adopt us, so that we would be able to see the country, because my grandfather worked for the Santa Fe Railroad, and that gave us passes, and they took us around, we saw every part of the country, it was really beautiful, and they were beautiful parents. But my mother and my aunt, and my other aunt, and we all lived during the '30s, in the big house, as I say, on Lincoln Street, and with all those providers there, we were able to make it through the depression. And of course, my house still stands, on 1125 Lincoln. - So did you and your wife remain there in Topeka after you came back from the war? - Yeah, we remained in Topeka, and I worked in Topeka doing various jobs, then I worked in Kansas City, and then, well I guess before that, I entered Kansas University, and no, I entered Washburn College before that, in 1946, because I only worked a short time when I came back from the war. And then I went to Washburn College, and then in '48 I transferred to Kansas University and received my degree here, Kansas University. - So you went to college on the G.I. Bill? - Yes, uh-huh. - Why'd you shift from Washburn to KU? - Well because there was a lousy psychologist at Washburn. Washburn, all in all, was the better school. Because of the fact that your classes were small, we could learn more. In my history class, Ralph Baytor, and there was say, 23 or four people in the class. My friend, Art Fletcher, was in the class. And Art Fletcher had a good career as a public servant in Washington D.C., and framed the term of a mind is a terrible thing to lose, he did that. And then the other one was a very nice young man, he's deceased, Onan Burnett was in my class, and William Harris was in that same class, all these guys, and we just got along famously. But then, and of course, I knew Redmond, Donald Redmond, and he was younger, and he's a friend of mine now, and Richard Ridley, he's a friend of mine now, I see him periodically, he was at Washburn at the time. But, and I wish I had changed my major, but I thought I wanted to be this psychologist, but the psychologist at Washburn had a book this thick, that's all he had. And he would drone on about nothing, and so I said, "It's time to go." So I packed up, went to KU. Classes were 150 in a class, and no professor teaching, just the teacher's assistant reading notes, and then at the end of the week you had to have a test on those notes. Well, I was glad to get out of KU. Immediately upon getting out of KU, I went back to what Washburn University told me I should be in, and that was business. And I went into business without the business background that I should have had. - So you got your degree from KU in psychology? - Yes, well, Campus University shifted me back from a senior to a beginning junior, so I have so many courses under my belt, it's not even funny. - Okay, let's take a short break here. Thank you for a short rest here, Mr. Reed. Carol had some questions she wanted to ask you about our previous interview, and then she's going to, Carol Burns, will now have a series of questions that she will ask you, and we may also want to elaborate more about your business and your career in business as well, but we'll start out. - Okay, let's go ahead and look at that question about the non-commissioned officer are black, if they weren't, then we would have been in trouble. You said earlier, and my question to you is how? And you had just started answering that with, if they had been white, there would have been-- - A problem, it would have been a problem for the simple reason, the blacks, including myself, would have said, "Well why aren't "Some of the non-commissioned officers black? "You have some white non-commissioned officers over us, "Some of these commissioned officers should be black." Because separation in anything, it always has been, saying you know, that's not right. You understand where I'm comin' from? - I do, but you also said that some of these non-commissioned officers, they weren't very smart, and you said they were chosen by the southern whites? - Yeah, the southern white officers, I can imagine. Or they were officers that had been in the service for a longer period of time, oh yes, they were, having been in the service for a longer period of time, then they naturally would rise up through the ranks. But that didn't make all of them worthy. I can give you an example if you want one. - Sure. Well, the captain came over and told this corporal, corporal was, I could tell he was part Mexican, because of his name, I can't think of his name, I always tried to remember it, but anyway, captain explained to the corporal, "Now corporal, you tell the men, "Do this, and you do that, "And the corporal said, 'Yes, sir'" - The corporal? - Yeah, he was a corporal. And so he had this, you know, you could tell he hasn't been through grade school, and I said, "No, corporal, that's wrong." Well, you know, you're, as a lowly private, you're not supposed to question the superior, quote, un-quote. But I did, I said, "No, that's wrong." and he said, "Well you know so doggone much, "You come out here and do it your damn self.", I said all right. And I did, and of course, that didn't set too well with him, anyway. But I did, that was just one example. And maybe there weren't that many more, there were, don't misunderstand, there were many good black, non-commissioned officers, but every now and then, you had some of the older ones who weren't that good. But it was difficult for me to cooperate in that type of situation. In other words, I guess makin' a long story short, I wasn't that good of a soldier, you see? Just tellin' it like it is, I wasn't that good of a soldier, to soldier unless I had some responsibility. And when I moved to this other outfit I was perfectly happy, I did a good job. - I also asked a question earlier, when you were in the combat military police, were there ever occasion, were you, let's see, was your authority respected, by non-African Americans, or was your position of authority respected in any case? Or were you given the opportunity to-- - No, I didn't have that, that much of an opportunity to, and I don't, the jobs that we had were, more or less, guarding facilities and whatnot, so we didn't run into any white counterparts, or to tell them what to do. - When you first got in, when you found out you were being drafted, when you were gonna go into the service, did you every have an, did you ever have any illusions that you would be a warrior, or did you feel like your position there was just? - That I would be a warrior? - Yeah, was that an expectation that you had for yourself? Or that you see yourself as a warrior? Do you feel like your services, your talents, your skills, were you utilized to the fullest? And did you want to be a warrior? - A warrior? - Uh-huh, battle, did you have that kind of a feeling about it, you know? - Oh, yeah, because I volunteered, I told them what I wanted to be in the Air Force. And then since I couldn't be in the Air Force, I wanted to be in the most dangerous job in the service, in the tank corps. But we couldn't be. In other words, they put us where they wanted to put us, and most of the blacks were put in service organizations, but the one place that I did, as I say, I liked, I liked the quartermaster, because the quartermaster, you don't fight a war without a quartermaster, and I was busy, so as long as I'm busy, well doing something, that was it. - Do you feel like your combat training had gone to waste? Were you ever able to, or did it not matter because of your position of, being a supply officer, that you felt that you were valued as a serviceman? - Oh, well yeah, I felt I was valued as a serviceman. You're giving service, everybody can't get into combat, or anything, but I had some good combat training, and plus the fact, I take marksmanship from my parents, my grandparents who could shoot better than Annie Oakley, and that's no bull, she could. And also I was a good map man, and that's something you needed, so in case that was ever needed, I would be good at it. - Let's see, I'm gonna go back to this list of questions that I was writing down earlier. Oh, that's my father's ring, that's the only thing I have left of him. My nephew gets it after me. My mom, she's a full-blood Lakota, my dad, he's a hillbilly, a white guy. - Is that right? - So I'm half and half. - Yeah, you're Lakota, huh, I'll be. - I was wondering if you have any Indian blood in you? - Yeah, the Indians who were never defeated. - The Lakota's or the Cheyenne? - The Seminole, don't you remember? The Seminole, they could not run the Seminoles out of the Everglades, they finally just gave up on it. And that's, is that on, or do we want-- - Oh yeah, it's on, it's fine. - Should it be, oh. But anyway, I'm trying to find my bearing on the Seminole, because I have enough Indian blood in me to qualify for the Indian part of bidding on government projects, and whatnot. Just like I have the, for bidding on the service connected disability, I'm a service connected disability veteran. And but with that, I need to find it, but a lot of my papers were lost, and my grandmother was proud of being the African American, and when the Indian representatives would come to the house and say, "Well your kids can go to Haskell, "Or get facilities at Haskell." and you know Haskell has great hospitalization, and everything, and one other Seminole guy told me I should be getting 3,000 a month from the Seminole's, but having to prove it. And I'd been going to, that's one of the other things I have to do, I've been going down to the archives in Kansas City, looking things up. But one of my half-sister was Dillenger's girlfriend. - Wow, that's interesting. - And yet I can't, you know, find it. I think she went back to the reservation and died, or something. But my father, it's on my father's side. - You should be able to trace those things, you should be able to-- - See, my sister was just, you know, "Everything is all right." And didn't keep, "Well, you know I'm in touch with our half-sister." Well I keep forgetting to get it marked down, and she's dead by now, I would imagine, and I didn't go see my father when I should have. That's one of those things. - So you, your sister was living in Florida? - No, uh-uh, my sister was livin' in Chicago, but she was in touch with my father's daughter, which was our half-sister. Her name was Henrietta, I'm gonna have to have to remember that, because I'm gonna have to try to get down there again and find that. - Yeah, that'd be good. You were saying for your business, that, well let me ask you about your business. When did you start your company? - Oh, this is been in operation, this company, RWS, it was Reed Water Systems, for years, but it's RWS now, incorporated, to enable, to work in conjunction with my kids, because they have construction companies, and construction management companies, and so having my company too, that gives us another platform to bid on, and as I say, it's about eight months old. Eight months or a year, or something like that. - So it went from Reed Water Systems to Reed Water Systems, Incorporated? Or just RWS? - RWS Incorporated, yeah. - How many children do you have? - Two, I have, one daughter's deceased, and so I have Cindy, and the office is 839 and a half, Massachusetts, it's Win Construction, that's what she has. - I've seen that. - And her husband works with her, and he's Willon Eubanks. - So let me go back to these questions before we run out of time, I don't want to keep you here all night. - Oh no, I'm just, it doesn't matter, I wish I'd taken some cough drops so I could talk clearer. - I think all I might have left in here is a Big Red gum, I have several of those. - Well maybe that Big Red would do it? - Well help yourself, it was sitting in my bag for a while, so it might be a little bit hard, but help yourself. - Yeah, okay. - I was wondering, as a veteran and a community elder how do you view the United States Military actions, post September 11th, 2001? In general, how the military has responded in the engagements that we have been involved in? - I think they're doing fine, except for politics that's not taking completely care of veterans. I think it's necessary to do what we're doing. I'm not an isolationist, I think that's a silly attitude for the greatest country in the world. We're supposed to be here to help other countries, and to, if we can, put other countries on the right track with one, women's rights, for one thing. Democratic action. Now that people know what's going on in the world, because of computers, they know that there is such a thing as liberty, and they want it, and we have to be a part of it, and it's too bad we have to intervene, so yeah. - Do you have any family members who are active military now? - No, I don't. - Sorry for that interruption, next question, did you have anything else that you were thinking about on this question that I asked you? - Right now I can't think of. - Okay, let me go ahead and get you the next one then. How has the African American experience in the military changed since World War I, in your opinion? Or, I'm sorry, World War II? - Okay, World War I, boy, I was gonna say totally. World War II, it's changed considerably, because of Harry S. Truman, he changed things, integrated the services, and the servicemen began to know one another. Before that, it was propaganda keeping the blacks and whites apart. And also, it has shown some of your greatest generals can be black, and they are. - Did you ever expect in your lifetime that you would see a black president? - No. - How do you think he's doing his job, by comparison? Or I guess, not by comparison. Well he's got a lot on his plate, or we all do. - Oh, I think he's doing an excellent job. And there's a lot that we don't know of what he has to do to try to make progress for the whole world. And because we're just a small part of it, he has more work to do around the world than just the United States and politics. And this is the, one of the worst eras of political divisiveness that we have ever seen. Every now and then, I suppose, in many presidencies, some of the crazies come out of the woodwork, and especially in racist America. We understand that we are still racist, we're still working on it, so therefore, we're gonna have problems, as we have had problems, and you're gonna have some of the crazies believing what some of the crazies in higher positions are saying. The hate groups are growing, they're doubling, and this always happens during recessions and hard times, and servicemen are getting out of the service with no jobs, and they are being enticed, some of 'em, into these hate groups, and these are trying times, and we just need to cope with it, and the president is trying to cope with it, he has good people around him trying to cope with all the situations at hand, and every one is a powder keg. So it ain't no easy slidin'. - Yeah, you're right about that. Has the portrayal or representations of African American World War II fighting forces been accurate in the mainstream media, and in Hollywood pictures? - Every now and then, every now and then it has been, but, and they have talked about what Red Ball did, and they have talked about what the Tuskegee Airmen did, but there weren't that many fighting forces, black fighting forces, to say that these troops went here, these troops went there, in World War II. And you didn't have to say anything about Nam or Korea, 'cause they were mixed. So I suppose it was an accurate portrayal of what has happened. Yeah, the Tuskegee Airmen were talked about, but that was just a small part of the Air Force. I didn't get in, I wanted to. Might not be alive today, but that's where I wanted to go. And they had, but you didn't hear much about the tank corps, and they were some bad dudes, they were good. It goes back to the black fighting men, we can go back to the, after the Civil War, when the settlers came across the Plains, 'cause when they came across the Plains, they were guided by one of the best calvaries in the world, and it was the black calvary, it was the 9th. Every now and then you hear about the 9th, but in the movie portrayal, nah, you don't hear about who's carrying the settlers across the Plain, 'course the, I think the black calvary didn't like too much about fightin' Indians, but that was their job, and they had to do it. - Do you have a favorite war, or anti-war film? - I can't think of any of the names, probably do. Everybody likes to see a blow 'em up, and shoot 'em up. - That's probably why they didn't have many movies on the support teams, behind the combat units. - Yeah, that's right. - Let's see, I think I kinda asked you this before, were you satisfied or dissatisfied with the amount of action you participated in? Do you feel your talents and expertise were sufficiently utilized? - I think my talents were utilized naturally when I was in the quartermaster outfit, yeah. I was able to contribute there. But I don't think my talents were utilized when I was in the MP battalion, because I was not satisfied with that. - What was your rank when you left? - The service? Private, because ranks were frozen. - Oh, that's right. - I had the job of the highest ranking sergeant in the service, but they were frozen. - During your time in the military were you able to make meaningful contributions or innovations in policies or practices? If so, can you elaborate? - Oh I remember one thing on troop train. The traveling across Europe, they had these cattle cars, they called 'em 40 and eight. They either carried eight cattle or 40 men, and you've seen in movies, they're short, they're not long, railroad cars like you have here. But anyway, we had men, our troop train was rolling across someplace, and we had these men crowded in there, and everybody was trying to lay on the floor of the troop train, and it was crowded, and everybody's mad at one another, you know, packed in there like sardines. I said, "Well you guys don't have to do this. I said,"Half of you, hang your blankets", the army blankets are tough, "Hang your blankets up from one side to the other, "And the other half lay on the floor." And we did that, and boy gosh God, it really, everybody wanted a hammock instead of layin' on the floor then, because it was a lot of fun. Sergeant came along and saw it, and said, "Hey, this is a good idea." and he went up and down the line of the train, and made everybody in the whole battalion change that way, because people were gettin' in fights and everything, because they were so crowded. I never will forget that, yeah, I did that. - That's a good story, I bet they still have that in practice now. They probably have that in the manual. - Yeah, they would, probably have it. - that's funny. You mentioned earlier, and I have a question here, what was your nickname? - When I grew up? - In the military. - In the military? - You said they called you something in France. - Oh, in France, le gran soldat, yeah. - Le gran soldat? - Uh-huh, the big soldier. - So did that catch on? Did everyone call you that then? - Oh, they, you know, some of the townspeople, when they would, you know, point me out. See, I'm not, I had shrunk, or shrank, or shrink-shrank-shrunk, anyway, I've shrunk three and a half inches, you know, because of my age, I used to be six three and a half. - You're still giant. - Yeah, I was a big dude. - So did you have any other nicknames in the service, or as a child growing up? - Oh, Doc Dewey, or Rodney the rock. Doc Dewey because I was always doing, I was always busy. And to this day I can't figure why a child would say they're board, because I was never board, I would always figure a way to do something, I could go play by myself. I made my own kites, my own tops that I could spin, my bows and arrows. So I had a pretty good time, I was fortunate. - I think you already answered this, but I'll ask it anyway, in your tour of duty overseas, were your experiences with non-Americans positive or negative? - Oh, positive, very positive. Well to make it positive you learned to speak the language, and I almost learned it, and when I came back, forgot a lot of it. But French, I used to, I learned. And when I was in Africa, when I was in North Africa, see, I looked like an Arab, and the Old Medina, they didn't allow any whites or foreigners in old Medina, you could get killed, and that was the place of refuge for oh, some criminals would hide there. You're not old enough to know of the famous movie, "Casablanca", are you? - I remember that, I've seen it one time. - Okay, well Casablanca was in Pepe Le Moko. Pepe Le Moko was the fella who hid in the Old Medina, he was able to hide there, no police could find him, you know, you go in and the narrow passage ways in to Old Medina, where people lived, well maybe you've forgot some of it, but anyway, I would be able to go in there because of the fact that I looked like 'em, and all I had to do was take my clothes off and get a sheet, and get my feet dirty, and a few onions and a basket. Because I wanted to see this area, and go up in there, and sometimes I would, might even have a friend, and go up in there with my service clothes on, and just wander around. And then I did go into some of the Arab's tents, in Africa, which was interesting. You know, they were off by themselves, and you never knew who your friends were, well you know, I didn't care, I'd just go in there. And they'd say, "Well if he's got enough nerve to come in here, "We may as well just get along with him." and they may be blowing hashish, or whatever, their marijuana, they had good marijuana over there. And I would go in and sit for a while, and then go out, and they became my friends, and so welcomed me in the tent, even though we couldn't even speak to one another, I didn't know what they were sayin', but I would visit, I was sociable, oh, okay. - They lose their flavor so quickly. Well that's good, you had good experiences. Do you know if your pay or compensation for your services was comperable to non-African American servicemen? - Yeah, it was comperable, yeah, it was the same, if you were a private you made so much, if you were a sergeant you made so much, you know, but gettin' there as I say, in the black companies, they already had their set-up's, as who was a non-com, and whatnot. - We'll be there shortly. - No, no, take your time, I'll throw away your-- - I've gone through all the questions, and just gonna see if there's anything important down here. - I'm in no hurry. - Okay, let me see here. Let's go ahead and go down to this other set of questions here. What has changed in terms of the character of African American community since racial integration began? - Well, you've heard of Urban Renewal? Do you know what it was called, shall I use the term? - Yes, - So just go, well it's been called nigger removal. - Wow. - In other words, it broke up Urban Renewal, broke up all the black communities. All over the United States, that's what it's changed. In Topeka, you live in Topeka? - Kansas City. - You live in Kansas City? Kansas or Missouri? Roeland Park, Kansas, right outside of the plaza. - Uh huh, oh, okay. Well, it wasn't there. They still have quite a bit of the ghetto-ation in Kansas City, down in the heart of Kansas City, down near 11th street, and whatnot and like that. But in Topeka, for instance, there was 4th Street, and it was quite a little community, there was a pool hall, and beer parlor, and chili parlor, and drug store, and some of the black professional men's offices. Charles Scott, and Shaun Scott, and Elisha Scott, their offices, you're familiar with that name? Okay, their offices were there. And Sam Jackson was in there with the Scott's and all. And then urban removal, I mean Urban Renewal comes through, and they built highways through there, and things like that, and so then we started, can live, all over town, so it's no certain gathering point besides the church. It makes it a little different, I guess it's okay. - Yeah, we kind of experienced that too, Indian people, when they busted up our communities, it's like, kids go more wayward without that influence of granny or auntie, so they're on the corner. Were there any drawbacks to desegregation, for example, were there any instances where you felt like you had to start over again, or prove yourself in a changed situation? - Well not me, but I would imagine some others did, I would imagine, and I guess it did happen in the teaching profession, where they would have to, especially with the, how, you know, prejudice looms, and it's difficult to get a job back when you're facing prejudice, and well, the jobs for the teachers, and naturally going to use more of the white teacher than the black teachers, and this is what happened during the Brown versus Board of Education, many of the teachers didn't want to go along with that, because they knew that the schools would be closed, the community schools would be closed, and the, they wouldn't be needed in the junior high schools, or the high schools. I wonder sometimes about that. You see, when you have your community schools, you know, there's pros and cons on this, we need to integrate, we need to have that to have experience with the other races, but the community schools like Buchanan School, for instance, where if I got outta line, my grandmother, all she had to do was call the school, only a block and a half around the corner, and most kids in the area, the principal had his finger on 'em, if things weren't going right with that student, you call the parent, and boy, that was it. They come up there and took care of the situation. But integration is good, it's a, what we needed for jobs, and whatnot. - We all gotta get along, we all live in the same place. - Mm-hmm. - Let's get down to, what Kansas-specific, African American history do our younger generations know very little about? - What did you say? - What Kansas-specific, African American history, do younger generations-- - Know little about? - Yeah. - Well they know little about, I would think they know little about from whence we came. They know little about my great grandfather, and other great grandfathers, who, well mine came out of Kentucky, and brought his daughter, my grandmother, in a covered wagon, from Kentucky to Kansas, and he founded, was the co-founder of the only black town in Kansas, Nicodemus, Kansas, and he was a pastor there, and raised his three daughters, and no, raised his daughter rather, then my granddaughter raised her daughters in Western Kansas. And I don't know, the past history of the NAACP, for instance, young blacks don't know about, and many of the old blacks don't yet know about the past history of the, how the NAACP, how it is a constant fight, and it's still a constant fight, whereas a lot of us say, and it's something that we need to always support, as a race, and know what they have done, and the sacrifices that the lawyers have done over the years, to help us into schools, and also how they have to start over again helping us into schools, because the schools were trying to resegregate themselves. And the black NAACP lawyers, with the Brown versus Board of Education verdict, or whatever it was, they had to go to every school system practically, in the South, and sometimes get run out with the threat of death to plead their cases, and they finally, through NAACP, finally won with Thurgood Marshall, through the biggest case, through the best attorney, biggest and best white attorney in this nation, named Davis, the black NAACP beat him, won out over him, and our kids should know that. And that was the culmination of the Brown versus Board of Education decision, through many smart black attorneys who gave up almost their life, and their time, and they weren't making any money at it. And for us to sit here and say we don't support something like that, I think it's a lack of understanding what has happened in a hundred years with the NAACP. I'll get off my soapbox. - Who is the African American you most admire? - Living or dead, or what? - Either. - Either? - Oh, I guess my grandfather. My grandfather and grandmother, they were great, great people. - I remember the story you told earlier. What does Black History Month mean to you personally? - Well, it means a time to learn more about our past, and about black history, and about people in the past, as I was saying to one of the questions was, that our kids don't know about our past, and I think Black History Month helps us to know more. About from whence we came. - Did you join any veteran organizations or activities after the war? - Oh yeah. Let's see, what was it? The AVC? I think that's the one that, that they were trying to call communistic. And then the, it escapes me, I don't know why. - Can you explain to me just a little bit more, when you say the AVC, what was that? What organization was that? - Well it was called the-- - I mean, what were some of the terms? - I was called the American Veterans Association, I believe. - Okay, fine, okay. - Yeah, the word that was escaping me, the main one, which is the American Legion. - Okay, but the A-B-C, or something you said was claimed-- - AVC. - V-C, was claimed to be communist? - What was his name back then that was puttin' communist on everybody? - Oh yeah, uh-huh, I know who-- - Can't think of his name. - McCarthy, yeah. - Yeah, McCarthy, anyway. I think it might have been in that time too, but yeah, the AVC, they were trying to call it that, and you know, the AVC was just dissenting, and one of the up-and-coming lawyers, the family I grew up with were the Burton's, in Topeka. And I remember Phil Burton, at the time, was running the AVC, he became a quite renowned lawyer in Seattle, Washington, later. You remember him, yeah? And it was one family that refused to turn white, because all of them looked like white kids, practically. - All the Burton's? - Yeah, all the Burton's. And they were quite a family. And Barbara Burton, I think she's still alive. She came back and her kids built her home, a beautiful home, right in Tennessee Town, right there on Buchanan Street. Do you know of that? - Yeah, I know the Burton's. - Oh, you do? - Yeah, right. Any more questions? How do you think military life influenced your life? Military experience influenced your life? - I don't think it influenced my life. It was something, I guess part was an adventure, it was an experience, something to do, but to make me a better man, no, I don't think so. - Well we talked about it a little bit, but you might have a different-- - Yeah, yeah, so just tell us just the background of your business, when did you get it started, and how did you get it started? - Which one? - Well let's say your current one. - Oh, the current one? Okay, my children are in, have construction business at 839 and a half Massachusetts. My daughter has Win Construction, Cynthia Eubanks. My son-in-law had a construction business in Kansas City several years ago, which closed out, and he came and is working with Cynthia, with Win Construction. We found out that there were, pardon me, many bids to be had by disabled veterans, and so I'm a service connected disabled veteran, and being a service connected disabled veteran, with business, they decided that we should change Reed Water, which I used to have, into RWS, and have a disabled veteran business. So the advantage there being that some of the bids that the federal government has, they open only to the service connected disabled veteran. For instance, the last bid that we were able to bid on as disabled veteran, there wasn't a slew of bids, there were four, and so we won the bid. And so with the service connected disabled veteran, then the Veteran Administration itself, will accept bids from only service connected disabled veterans. And I was trying to prove that I was service connected disabled veteran, because of my knee, and they wanted to turn that down, and they did, we're going to re-apply. But the thing that happened, I kept saying, and this guy, I don't think wanted to cooperate with us anyway, thought I was trying to get some money, and I said, "Well, before I got out of the service, "I had a, almost lost my arm, "I had this bad hand before I was discharged." And then I went to the American Legion, and before we couldn't get the zero percent disability that we needed for service connected. Went to the American Legion, and the American Legion representative was able to call someone in the American Legion, and they pulled the records from the files and found out that I had been service connected disabled veteran since 1946. - Oh my goodness. So you were more than qualified. Were you able to list in your other, the list of kind of businesses you've had preceding this one? - To list that? - Yeah, how many, what are the names of some of your other businesses that you may have run? - Well, when I got out of school, as I said, and I graduated in 1951, from KU, I got out of school, and almost immediately, after a few odd jobs, almost immediately, went into a business selling food freezer plans, and they weren't hiring blacks as salesmen in 1951, anywhere. But I went down to this place and said I wanted to sell, and I looked at this sales manager and told him that I wants to sell to the black people in the neighborhood. Well you see I had to do that to get his attention, because he was a white cracker from California. He said, "Well I can't hire you, "But you go down to the people that own the place, "And maybe they can hire you." Now any sales organization, they always are looking for salesmen, but this black person they couldn't hire. I went down and talked to the owners, and the owner said, "Well sure, Reed, we can hire you, "Yeah, you hired." I went to work for them, and in the first week after I spent two weeks learning about the products, and all, the first week I went to work, I was the second-highest in the company, in the city, in Topeka. Now I got a wife, that remember the black culture, the black culture is, was at that time especially, security is working for somebody, ain't no way in God's green earth you can work for yourself and do anything, you need a job from eight to five. So I'm not going to go into the whole story, I don't think you want to hear that, but anyway, I continued on. Of course, my mother came to see me, and she was very happy and congratulated me, because I had won this beautiful rifle that was the second prize, but I continued working, and I knew this was a time in my life that I could do it, I could become a millionaire, with some help. I went out and worked, and I'd come in late, and of course that was insecurity for my poor little wife, I hated that, and I guess I didn't handle it right, but I'm the only black in the company, it's a national company, and I'm the only black in it. Throughout the whole United States. Within the year, I was number one. I went, I happened to be in Memphis, Tennessee, at one time, while I still was doin' a little bit of it, and in Memphis you can walk across to Mississippi, and I walked into the Mississippi office, of this rich plan company, and the guy said, and I didn't say anything, and he looked at me and said, "You're Reed!" I said, "Yeah, so?" "You come and work for us!" I said, "Is you a fool? "This is Mississippi." he said, "You could sell to anybody!" And wanted me to come and work in Mississippi. It shows you what the dollar will do. But I didn't, but from there the communications didn't go too well for my wife in that business, I did something wrong probably, I didn't explain things to her right, and one thing lead to another, and rather than being home, I just went out on the road and come home on the weekends, things like that. And drank too much, also. But I took most of the, you know, you've heard of the Pied Piper? - Uh-huh. - Well I was the Pied Piper, most of the salesmen, all the white salesmen wanted to go wherever I went. And at that time, there was no place for a black man to stay in a white hotel, so we all congregated at this one black hotel in Manhattan, Kansas, which I shouldn't have done that, I should have opened my own food freezer plan, and not told these other white folks about all the opportunities that I had up there to sell people this unit, the Big Red One, the First Division had come back, and they wanted the food freezer plan, so I was telling everything, everybody, and I came down to Lawrence, and I bought a new Buick Super off the floor, and paid cash for it. I was makin' some big dough. All my friends had bought the unit from me, except a few, who felt that the white man could give 'em a better deal. And I was damn near runnin' the company. That was the first business. - Well can we continue this conversation with you another time? Would that be okay? Bring you back up and-- - You can see how windy I am, I don't care. - No, we appreciate all your time, it's just we think you've gone a long time, and we promise not to have people go this long, so why don't we-- - You're tired, I'm not. - Well no, we all gotta get back, but we will be back, we will bring you back next week, if that's all right? - Yeah, that's okay. - And we thank you very much for this interview, Mr. Reed, and thank you Carol, thank you. - August the 26th, 2011. My name is Deborah Dandridge, and this is our second interview session with Mr. Robert Reed, for the African American World War II Veterans Oral History Project. Thank you very much, Mr. Reed, for coming with us. How are you, Mr. Reed? - Fine, good to be with you today. - Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Reed, in our last session, you had just completed talking about your first business enterprise, and do you want to continue on, and what was your next business enterprise, about after the salesmen shift that were involved in refrigerators? - Well that was food freezer plans, the freezers full of food, and monthly resupplying those freezers for customers, and then from there I went to insurance, yeah, from there I went to insurance. - Was that selling insurance? - And selling insurance. - Do you remember what insurance company it was? - No, I don't. I started out in the Arkansas state area. I was coming from Memphis after being involved with the savings and loan there, the black savings and loan there, I was public relations director there for them, for a year, and it's a job that I sincerely didn't like. - Well why didn't you like it? - Well because, back to my schooling, I wasn't looked after, I blame my teacher for this, to make me become efficient as a speaker. I was always, always was deathly afraid, to get up in front of an audience and speak to them, unless I was selling something. In college I made a C minus in speech. So you can understand where I was, and yet, I needed a job, and so that's the reason I went south to work in the savings and loan. - Was it a job advertisement? How did you happen to know there was a job opening? - Well one of my friends said that they needed, needed a person there, and they figured that I would be a good person for that. I reluctantly took the job, because I knew my, I needed to feed my family at the time, and it was year of nightmares, but after I went around to a hundred churches in Memphis, there's more churches in Memphis than service stations, at the time. And at that time there were service stations, gasoline service stations, on nearly every corner in Memphis, and many of the preachers there were very friendly and pushed me to get my point across to try to get our people to put their money into the black savings and loan. And Benjamin Hooks, who was the former NAACP president, was one of the owners of the savings and loan at the time. Well anyway, I came back up through Arkansas, and got into sales in the insurance and investment business, where I sold insurance and investments, mutual funds, together with the insurance, and then after a stint in Arkansas, moved my business into Kansas City, coming closer to home. - When you were in Arkansas, was that business African American owned, or was it some other? - Well, no, I was an agent for a white insurance company. - And this was in the '50s or the '60s, do you remember? - That would have been in the '60s by then. - You want some water? What did you, okay hold on just a minute. You went from Memphis to Arkansas? - Well from Memphis to Arkansas you go right across the bridge, from Memphis and you're in West Memphis, Arkansas. - But what made you go there? What was the drawing card? - There were some customers in West Memphis, and I was thinking since this insurance company was in Arkansas, then I would work in Arkansas for a while, then later move on into Missouri, because the owner had a license in Missouri, also, and that would be close to my home and my family. - How did you exit from your job as a PR person from the black savings and loan? - Quit, I resigned. - Was that creating a problem for them? - Oh no, not for them. I think it was good for them, and I think possibly they might have been relieved. Because as I say, I wasn't the greatest spokesman for them, and I accomplished some, but I think a better spokesman could have accomplished much more. - So salesmanship was your forte? - Yes. - So the insurance company in Arkansas, you combined several things that you were doing? You were selling the insurance and doing other things? - No, no, I was only, when I went to Arkansas I was only selling insurance. - Who were your major customers? - Individuals. - Okay, were they African-- - Homeowners, homeowners. - Were they African American? - African American. - Only? - Only, African American only customers at the time. - Is that your choice, or is that the companies choice that your customers only be African American? - That was my choice. And also at the time there was the discrepancy as far as the type of policies that African American could get, and white people could get. And the type of companies that, the main companies today that sell insurance, did not sell auto insurance, or any other type of insurance to blacks at that time. The type of insurance, I take that back, the type of insurance they did sell to the blacks, was the industrial insurance. Industrial insurance is where, don't you recall, when the insurance man would come around weekly and collect premiums? That was industrial insurance, that's all we could get, and we paid through the nose for that insurance. - What did it cover? - Industrial insurance? Industrial insurance covered your life insurance, or black people wanted some coverage, some life insurance coverage, and that's what it was, you know? - Could you, if you continued to pay out, could you take a loan out from it like you can on-- - Not, they said so, but at that time, the industrial insurance didn't build up that much, unless you were putting in quite a bit of money. And I don't recall the technical aspect of the industrial insurance. - So you deliberately chose to sell only to African Americans? And what kind of insurance were you selling to them in Arkansas? - Well as I said before, I was selling a new type of insurance that was not industrial, where they could pay monthly, or pay yearly, and also connected with the mutual funds, which would give them more of a monetary advantage later on down the line. And was educational to them, and it was interesting to them to see that, if they could afford that. Then I moved up on into Little Rock, Arkansas, and this was after the Little Rock Nine had been accepted to the schools, and I met at the time, Daisy Bates, who, you know, Daisy Bates and her husband who had the newspaper and fought, she was quite a colorful character. - Were they your customers? - I approached them to make a pitch, to them to be my customers, but they weren't, but there were many others who were my customers. Of an interesting person there, speaking of black history, was a person named Doctor Jones, who graduated from Kansas University in 1924, and he was a medical doctor there, in Little Rock, Arkansas, and many other people of distinction were living in Little Rock at the time, which made it an interesting place to be. - So you had plenty of customers with working class and middle class blacks, I assume? - Yes, I had some customers. I was struggling along with the insurance business there. - Who were some of your competitors? Were there black insurance companies also, competing with you? - No, this was relatively new at the time. I had to take a investment type examination to be able to sell the investments to mutual funds with the insurance. And from there I moved on, took the company on to Kansas City, and sold the funds and the mutual funds, and insurance in the Kansas City area, and actually we opened the first all-lines insurance agency, black insurance agency, in Kansas City, Missouri. - Where was it? - It was called State-Wide Insurance, and the reason we were able to call it all-lines, is because we had life insurance that people could pay by the month or the year, which was not the industrial insurance, and we had auto insurance, but at that time in Kansas City, the auto insurance companies were not insuring the inter-city blacks, so we had to use off-brand insurance companies, auto insurance companies, because getting insurance, being and agent for one of these insurance companies, we just couldn't do it, they didn't allow. - Even though this was after 1954? - Oh yeah, oh yeah, insurance was, quite a prejudiced business back then. - Now this company that you started in Kansas City, did you own the company? - Yeah. - It was your-- - Yeah, there were four, three or four, or five of us who owned it, we all chipped in and worked together in it, and we hustled, and went out and got customers, and whatnot. - Who were some of your partners in it? - I can't think of it, McConnell was one of the names. - How did you happen to meet them? - I happened to meet 'em... I don't rightly recall. Just naturally in the street, an insurance person is going to meet other insurance people. And then, from there, you've heard of Jones Mortuary in Kansas City? - Right, uh-huh. - Okay, Jones Mortuary in Kansas City - That's on the Kansas side, right? Is that J.W. Jones? - Yeah. - Uh-huh, that's on the Kansas, uh-huh. - Were interested in one of the plans that I had, I worked for a white funeral plan for a while, and got the idea, that if you draw premiums from an individual, and connected to the mortuary, then that mortuary is going to be able to bury you when you die, because you're paying premiums to them. So it's sort of an insurance deal. So I had one of those things going with Jones Mortuary. And we buried a few people, you know. - So after, how long did you stay with the business in Kansas City, do you remember? A couple of years? - Yeah, maybe a couple of years, yeah. - So do you remember what you pursued after that? - Well yes, after that, was a... - Well that's okay, what other businesses were you-- - I lost my thought when I came back. Oh, I know what it was, after that, about that time, one of my insured, the insurance companies did not want to pay for a wreck that one of my clients had, and it disheartened me, and I left that business, and I said, "Well, it's time for me "To go to work for somebody." Never will forget him, he was quite a colorful preacher in Kansas City, named Reverend Rucker, and so walked into the office of the state vocational rehabilitation office, and said I wanted to make an application to become a councilor for the rehabilitation for the state of Kansas. Well I was taken aback. Now as you know from my record, I have never worked for anybody, I worked for myself. Because before that time, I may have worked for someone, but it was in menial jobs and whatnot, and I didn't think at the time, that anyone was going to give me a job in my field, because they just weren't doing it, but when I walked into the, the times had changed, and I didn't realize that, and so when I walked into this office, the red carpet was rolled out, "Yes, Mr. Reed, come in." I almost ran out the door. Because they were going to hire me as a voc/rehab councilor for the state of Kansas, which they did. And I took that job, and that went on for maybe about a year, but then-- - You remember anything about that job? Did you like it? - No, it was quite boring, because I was inside, and it was quite depressing, because I had to interview people who were recovering from terrible accidents. People leaving part of their bodies on the pavement from riding motorcycles carelessly, and then you're trying to rehabilitate them, or drug addiction, or things like this. And I had to travel to the offices throughout, the county offices throughout the state of Kansas, and it was boring. But then along came the poverty program, of course, people knew me in my hometown, and Charles Scott was-- - And your home town was? - Topeka, and Charles Scott was on the board of the-- - Coordinating committee of the black community? - Of the poverty program in town. And they had had a white director before, named Dr. Harder, and of course, Dr. Harder didn't do anything, but as as I'm concerned, but you know, cater to the white community and say we're here, and they never expanded their operation, they had three people in it, a secretary named Henrietta Shepard, a black lady, and a Mexican, I forget his name, he was the vice chairman of the poverty program. Well, Harder moved on up in politics, and they needed someone to replace him, and so, before that time, because I was a councilor, I worked a while in Kansas City, Kansas, as a voc/rehab councilor for the poverty programs, but then after that, they called me from there to come to, go to Topeka to be the director of the poverty program, because I was head councilor, finally made head councilor, of the poverty program in Kansas City, but before that time, they had head councilor for the poverty program there, too, as a white person who didn't know what he was doing, but where the money goes, with these new programs that come up, you always place the white person in that first, and the black person underneath, this has been the history of the black moving up in the social structure, of wherever we make a new program for it, the black person, that has been the history of it, and therefore, after that, I came to Topeka, and they employed me as the director of the poverty program. - But what'd you do as director? You remember stuff about that? - Oh yeah, as the director of the poverty program, my assistant director said, "Well you know now, Bob, what you do, "Is we meet with the council in town that meets weekly, "We go and meet with them and see what they have to say." and I said, "No, we don't go meet with them, "We're here to fight for jobs, "We're not here to go agree with the white council." - You're talking about city council? - Yeah, and I said, "We're just, that's not what "We're supposed to do. "You guys haven't done anything." so I said, "From now on, you stay here, "We're doing other things, "We're trying to find them jobs." and with that, the Labor Department came in and said, "Well, Reed, we're going to give you "As much money as you need, to train people." And what not, and we had no office, hardly, the office space was about this big, I said, okay, we're moving, we're getting office space. We're going to hire, we're going to hire workers, we're going to hire trained people, which we did. And then the churches, one of the churches that stuck by me through thick and thin, through what went on, were able to, I forget the name of the church. - Was it Calvary, Antioch, Shiloh? - Well, the black churches were able to assist me somewhat, but for the big space that I needed to have classrooms for people, to train them, to just go to work and be there for eight hours a day, rather than calling in sick. - So was this church white? - Yes, uh-huh, it was a white church. - Was it Grace Cathedral? - No, it wasn't Grace, I think it was on Huntoon, or near Huntoon and Buchanan. - Wasn't that Reverend Harder's church? Methodist, United Methodist? Well, that's okay. - It could have been, it could have been. Anyway, I was able to get cooperation from there, and then began the, well so-called power struggles with the total situation, it was going pretty good for a while, then I said, you know I really want to get back to working for myself. and so I was having problems at home, and I thought maybe if I went to work back again for myself, things may straighten up. And so I went into the water conditioning business, after I left that business as the director of the poverty program. - Why did you choose water conditioning? - Well I chose water conditioning because I was looking for something to do, and to be able to do myself, eventually myself, rather than working for someone, but there's always has been, with me, something about water, I can stick my hand in water, in hard water, and I can itch all over. One thing I hated about water, coming up when I was a kid, is you, we had to take a bath, you know, we didn't have showers, black folks didn't have showers, I didn't know what a shower was, that's too expensive to have, and you know the curd that forms in the water, and you try to push it away from you, and we didn't have the money to be, and I don't even know if they'd invented it at the time, the softening liquids that you could pour in water and make the suds, and you didn't see all that curd. So I hated that, and so I was looking for something to do, and when I saw, went to this meeting and saw a water demonstration, I said, "This is what I want to do the rest of my sales career." - Wow. "This is, I have finally found "What I want to do." So to do that, you had to work with someone, so I was working with this company, and always been the best salesman, and being the best salesman means you work hard, you don't sit down. Well I never sat down, I worked, I made appointments, I'd come in late at night, and much to the disdain of my wife, wondering where I've been, I've been selling. And so this one company they were happy, because they were making money off of me, I quit them, and oh boy, they wanted to sue me because I'd quit them, and I went to this other company, a fella named Ralph Getty, and he was selling water softeners in Topeka and surrounding towns, and I was interested in his system, and so I went to work with him. And then he got happy with all the money I was making him, and when I quit him, oh, he tried to sue, and I said, "Well, I can't work on my own here, "I have to go to another area." So I had to come to Lawrence, and he tried to maintain that was his area, too, and the company said, "Well no, Reed can work in that area." I didn't know many different water conditioning companies at the time, I just knew what he had, that I wanted to sell it. So I did sell it, and eventually start selling that, and eventually he came around into be a friend, or acquaintance, you know? And so he sold in the Topeka area, and I sold in the Lawrence area. And finally chose other companies to sell for, and learn more about water conditioning, to sell all over the state, and even out of the state. - So after, did you just continue into that form of work, or did you? - Yes, I continued into that form of work, in fact, RWS Incorporated now, with the, which works with construction, which is Reed Water Systems, works into construction, and I'm the president of that company. - So how did you jump from Reed Water Systems to RWS? - Well, Reed Water Systems was practically into retirement, and RWS was something that was needed because my children are in the construction business, and I'm a service disabled veteran, and being a service disabled veteran, it gives me the advantage of contracting, bidding on contracting, because the federal government sets aside certain bids that only a service disabled veteran can bid on, which would eliminate the competition substantially. So this is why my business is there in the same office as my daughter's business, Win Construction, and all, and it works quite well. We have a contract going now that is repainting, and repairing buildings at Fort Leavenworth, and we're bidding on, we're looking to bid on other, on other contracts as the years go. - Do you bid for the state, or do you bid only for the federal government contracts? - Oh, state or for both. - So you bid on both? Have you gotten some state contracts? - Not as yet, we hope to. Plus the fact, with my experience with Reed Water Systems, it will lead me to be able to bid on some of the state and county water contracts. - What is the Reed Water System like? What was it like? What were you selling? - Water softeners. - Is that something you created? - No, water softeners have been a part of water treatment for years, it's just beginning to come of age where you are able to take iron out of water, arsenic, everything out of water where you're able to-- - So how did you develop your product? - Well you have suppliers, you don't have to develop the product, in other words, you don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, the wheel is already there. You just have to be able to market it, and know how to market it successfully. In other words, nose to the grindstone. - So what kinds of things did you have to do to market it? - Well, you have to get on the phone and call and say, "Mrs. Jones, how are you today? "We would like to show you something that would be, "Could be very interesting for you, "As far as, to ease your cleaning, "And also we want to bring you a nice gift." - Okay, so did you run advertisements of your business? Where was your business located? - The Reed Water Systems was located for a while on, about 725 Massachusetts Street, in Lawrence here, you know where the Eldridge Hotel is? - Right, uh-huh. - It was next to, it was the next building. - How were you able to get that? Were you renting that building? How were you able to rent it? Was there any prejudice against your being African American? - Well no, there wasn't, because the fella who owned it was the, a good friend, and a customer, I liked him, he was a, he is a noted past athlete of Kansas University, his name was Wes Santee, and he was a great track man here. He's listed in the KU Hall of Fame. - What kind of struggles did you have in starting your businesses, because you had insurance, you had the insurance in Kansas City, what struggles did you have in getting loans in started, what were some of the barriers of race that you encountered? - Oh, the barriers of race, well my goodness. Strange that you would ask that. It so happens that it was very difficult. I happened to have, just happened to have a few dollars, not too many, from struggling with sales in Topeka, and then coming down here. The finance companies, Culligan, was right in the next block. Finance companies were begging, so to speak, these other water conditioning companies, Culligan and all, well we can lend you the money to promote your business. And actually it wasn't the lending of money that I was interested in, it was the banks handling the dealer paper. Now, dealer paper is something that makes it easy for a salesman to sell. In other words, I sell you a product for a thousand dollars, but you say, "Well I have to make payments." Well okay, if you have to make payments to me, then I don't have enough money from you to go out and buy more equipment to sell to someone else. What I needed at the time, as a dealer, was the bank or someone, to take the dealer paper, pardon me, pay me for the equipment, and then put the individual on payments, and then the individual pays to the bank. - So was Culligan your competitor? - Yes, uh-huh. - How did you fare, in that competition? - Oh, fine. Oh yeah, sure. Sometimes he would get-- - And the question I was asking you, was Culligan your competitor? - Well that, yes, that was one of the competitors, there are many competitors in the water conditioning business. But back when I started over 40 years ago, there weren't that many competitors. But Culligan is a franchise. I was not a franchise, I didn't want to be a franchise. A franchise is where you pay money in, and then the franchiser takes care of you and teaches you everything, and provides you with certain things, but you pay for that. - How come you didn't want to do that? - Well, I'm coming to that. And you pay for that being within the franchise, but then in a franchise, then there are times, at that time where the franchise people have to charge more for their equipment, and many franchisees didn't really know how to take care of their systems. Some of 'em relied on the franchise so much that they didn't study what they were doing, and know about water quality and water chemistry. Whereas I felt, as a non-franchise person, I can depend on myself. Reed Water became a big name in the town, it was a house-hold name, for instance, in Eudora, Kansas, because my customers were satisfied. They knew that I knew how to take care of them, take care of their water properly, and set the systems up properly. Yeah, there was trial and error there in the, 40 years ago, the water softening business was not near as complete and good as it is now, water systems weren't, I lost some big money on some water systems. But then there's a example of one of the other dealers that, most of the other dealers were able to get the financing, and whereas a lot of times I couldn't. - How come you couldn't? - Because I'm black. Now however, you could argue, others could argue that point, but I have the proof of that, and I can go into that sometime then I can tell you. - Well I would like you to go into it now. - Okay, after I finish this sentence, I'll go into it. What I had to do, was I would sell you a system, okay, here's your system, and then you would sign this contract with me. I would have to then take this contract, rather than me sending it to the bank, and them sending me the money, I'd have to take it to the bank myself and sit there and give this to the bank, and see what they could do about it, and have them check it out, and then go back a few days later to see if it was okay, and see if the bank could pay me, and then I'd have to take papers back out to these people and have them sign something, and then bring this back to the bank again. Now, that's the way I became one of the top salesmen in water conditioning, in Lawrence, because I had to do all that, because I couldn't get the dealer paper. But you wanted to know about that financing. Well, that financing several years before it happened to me, in the food freezer business, where I decided, well, the best thing for me to do is to go this on my own, and so I went into a finance company and presented my program to them, I said, "Now I'm gonna buy freezers, "And I'm gonna buy the food and put it together, "And I'm gonna sell to these people, "And you can take this paper, "Like they take paper in Topeka, Kansas, "For this other food freezer plan." "Oh no, we can't do that, "We can't do that at all." So I said, "Okay." I walked out. - Did you ask them why they couldn't do it? - No. - Why didn't you? - Because I walked out, let me finish. - Okay. - I got my friend, and sent him in, this was, I was like a Pied Piper, because I was the best salesman in the nation, and people followed me. I sent my white friend in, I told him what to say, how to say it, and everything. And what did this same man say? "Oh yeah, sure, we'll take all the paper you can, "Sure, everything's fine." This is the way it went. But then when I came, so that's so much for paperwork, as to whether you could get paper. No, you couldn't, yeah, it's a prejudice field. Probably still is today, let's face the facts. - What kind of funding experiences did you have in your water business? - Well, that-- - Did you even bother to ask? - Well yeah, I did. And every periodically, I'm coming to that, so back into the water business, periodically I would get some of the banks to take some of the paper, and this happened in Eudora, I had pretty good cooperation in Eudora for a while, but then the banks close down on you, you never know when they're deciding to close down on you, and you have to be careful because I had salesmen working for me, and when you have salesmen working for you, that's the only way you can pay them. You can't depend on cash sales. And at that time, people weren't doing cash sales, now more so than just paying for things cash. So we, I even went to the SBA, and the SBA gave me a loan. But as I left the SBA, I let them know, you gave me just enough money to fail, just enough, In any business you need a certain amount of money to keep yourself afloat, and to make the positive purchase that you need. And of course, I took it, and was able to ride it for a while, but still, I wasn't able to get the permanent financing from the banks or the finance companies at the time. And let it be said, at the time my financial rating was okay, it was fine. I think I even had, I came up with several thousand dollars that would help the financial rating. But couldn't get the money for it. And then, another bank came along, Lawrence National Bank, and at the time I was, had my membership in the Rotary, in town here. And knowing other businessmen and whatnot, and this president of the bank said, "Well Reed, we're going to take on your paper, "And also we're going to the SBA and get you another loan." And so they did, and the SBA again, and the bank, just enough to fail. As far as I'm concerned. Okay, this could be my excuses, however others, I felt that they were able to, when they got and SBA loan, they got enough to carry them so that they couldn't go down, but if you get just enough to fail, that means after your salesmen sells so much, and then the bank stops taking that paper, you gotta fire everybody. One of the biggest wholesale water conditioning companies in this area, were small, 40 years ago, and I taught 'em how to buy wholesale. They weren't buying wholesale, and I taught 'em how to buy, we bought wholesale, we bought carloads of minerals, and when I had my shop downtown here, I had it stacked to the ceiling, and those old buildings, high ceilings, with thousands of pounds of salt, whole truckloads of salt. And hundreds of cases of soap. I tried to hire some of my people, some girls came up and wanted to work, I said, "Well yeah, there's a way to work here, "But you work for yourself." I took 'em all out to dinner, "And you work for yourself, "And if you work hard enough, "You will have a career that will take you "Into your retirement, if you want to do it." I said, "I have this woman in my Thunderbird, "She drives that Thunderbird." and in those days, the Thunderbird was the same as a Lincoln Continental, I don't know whether you remember it or not. But because she was bringing in business. I said, "Now you can do that, too." And so after I explained all this glorious good stuff to them of what they could do. "So you guys come in Monday morning, "And we'll see, if you decide you want to do this, "You come in Monday morning, "We'll see what we can do from here." - And who came in? - Nobody. - Tell me this, when you were RWS, was started by your daughter, you say? - My daughter and her husband said that they realized that that was a good thing to do for bids, to be able to bid on certain projects to start. - Who is your daughter and son-in-law? - Cynthia Eubanks with Win Construction. - Okay, now did they start the Win Construction? - No, Cynthia Eubanks started, my daughter started Win Construction. - How did she happen to get into that? - Well she got into Win Construction because she worked in construction companies several years before. She worked with... Leland, what's Leland's last name? - What's her husband's name? - Well, Leland. Oh, Cynthia's husband? My daughter's husband? Wilane, W-I-L-A-N-E, or W-I-L-L-O-N-E. - Okay, and how do you spell Cynthia's last name? - E-U-B-A-N-K-S. - So she just follows in her father's steps, footsteps, into going into business? - I guess. - Tell me who, give me the names of your children, besides Cynthia. - Well deceased, is Bobbie Jean. - Bobbie Jean is your-- - Uh-huh, Williams. - Yeah, I knew Bobbie Jean. - Yeah, small world, but you didn't know that? - No, okay so Bobbie-- - And you knew about Cindy being your, in your sorority? - Yeah, yeah, I knew that. Somehow I knew that, I don't know why? - And didn't know about her sister? - No, uh-uh, I didn't put the two together. - I'll be. - Okay, so who are your other children? - Those two. - Just the two girls? - Yeah, just the two girls. And that construction company that she worked with was with Leland Anderson. - Okay, okay. - And you knew Lucinda, who married Leland Anderson, oh you didn't? - So Leland Anderson was African American? - Uh-huh, yeah. - The only people I know is, out of Topeka is, you know, who's the kid who has his construction company? Alanso Harrison, - Uh-huh, oh yeah. - I just know, but he's young, but I knew him. Now who was your wife? - Opal Mitchell. - And so in terms of business, what advice would you give to young African American, going into business by themselves? - Well, I can write a book, and might right a book of how to succeed and fail, in three businesses without trying to hard. The advice, first that I would give them is, when you go to college, and they tell you that you are, you should go into the school of business, do it, instead of doing what I did, going into, starting out into the school of business, and then being hard-headed and not wanting to add up those figures, because in the days when I first started with accounting one, you didn't even, you didn't have any adding machines, you were just doing adding and subtraction. I said, "I know this adding and subtraction, "So why am I doing this?" I should have stayed there. So therefore I made many mistakes. And then, know your adversaries, know your friends. There was another person who helped break me up, I won't mention his name, he lived in Topeka. He worked for the Internal Revenue Department. And at the time, the Internal Revenue Department was giving bonuses to people who went into businesses and then the would audit those businesses and find a way to say that they were doing something against the law, and charge 'em big fines. Did you now that happened? - No, but I'm not surprised. - Oh, okay, so now this fella came up to Lawrence here, and "Yeah, Doc," Doc's my nickname, because Doc Dewey, I was always doing something as a kid, busy. "Yeah, Doc, how you doing?" "Oh fine, it's good to see you" "Well nice well how's things?" So we talked and whatnot, and next few months or so, I had this audit. And by not taking the business courses, and whatnot, I overlooked certain things, the things that I overlooked was, actually the human nature of the business. My secretary had left, gone to another job, my bookkeeper died, so I'm there holding the bag. But what I didn't do, I rather than listen to the IRS, and rather than get a lawyer and contest things, I let 'em roll me over. Later, I got a lawyer who looked at my books and things, said, "Well Reed, you were in the right, "They just got to you." And actually, it actually... So the next time something like this came up, I had a lawyer in Topeka, I think I was going into one of my bankruptcies, and so we, went in this room, this lawyer, came up to about here on me, we went in this room, and low and behold, there was the same IRS guy that had fouled me up before. He said, "Reed, I want such and such, " and my lawyer, pushed me back in back of him, "What the hell are you talking about? "You mean you're gonna talk to my client like, "Don't you ever raise your voice to my client. "What does you want?" "Well you can have it. "When do you want it? "Well you'll get it on that day, "Don't ever raise your voice to my, "Do you understand?" And I said, "Well I'll be damned." If I had had a lawyer the first time, and you see the ads on TV all the time, and every time I see one of those ads on TV, well I think about it. - Well I appreciate your time, I'm going to have to end this, but we'll pursue some other elements of your life experiences-- - I hope I didn't get off on the wrong thing. - No, you did just perfect, and I thank you for your time once again, thank you Mr. Reed, bye bye.