- This is an interview with Mr. Merrill Ross and Mrs. Barbara Ross and it's June the 14th 2011. It's taking place in their home in Topeka, Kansas. Thank you both for being here and we appreciate you're taking your time. So we're going to kind of explore some memories about Mr. Ross's military service. Do you want to share what memories you have of what he said, Mrs. Ross? And Mr. Ross can always fill in. - Yes, I'd be glad to. Well, I'll begin with when I first met Merrill. He was out of the service. He was a former Tuskegee Airmen in one of the last classes, so he didn't go overseas, which was a blessing. The war ended just before he went over to fight and when I met Merrill, I had just finished college and was visiting my sister and brother-in-law in Columbus, Ohio at Lockbourne Airbase. I had just been accepted at Ohio State so that I could work on my master's. And Merrill was there recruiting teachers from Topeka, Kansas because there was a shortage here at the time. I filled out some papers and of course I needed a job because the war was over and I was anxious to get into something in my field, which was elementary education, and that's what they were looking for, teachers in that area. However, Merrill told me of so many things about he loved to fly and as a youngster he used to see airplanes every now and then fly over the mountains of Kentucky where he lived. And he said he would like to fly some day, which he did. He went to Kentucky State for a couple of years and left there and attended Pittsburg State Teacher's College. And that was during the war and they had a program of civilian pilot trainees there, so he was one of the students and of course he had his pilot's license and everything when he was called to the service. The people in Leavenworth, and I think that's where he went to to be inducted, he wanted to go to Tuskegee right then but the man said, "Have you had any basic training?" And Merrill said, "No, but I have my pilot's license." And he said, "Well, you'll have to have basic training first." Am I telling that right Merrill? - Yes. - So he was in the service in Fort Bragg for a while and came across a young lieutenant from New York and they became good friends. He helped Merrill a lot. Of course he was over Merrill and Merrill told him how wanted to be a Tuskegee Airmen and he said, "Well, if you can get some of your friends together, we'll see what we can do." So that's what Merrill did. And they took a battery of tests, physical and academic and so forth and so on and finally he made it to Tuskegee. There were 90 in his class to begin with because some came from other places and, of course, during that time they had to... They knew that they were under pressure because this program really was not supposed to succeed. So they were told that so many would be washed out at different periods, which was very unfortunate. Merrill finally made it. They ended up there were nine in his class of 90 that made it and he was one of the nine. Well, during that time, like I said, he was in one of the last classes, so he didn't make it overseas to fight but those who were over there made such a name and such a good record that some of it is just beginning to come out. They used to call them the Red Tails because their airplane tails were painted red. And when they would go on these missions to protect the bombers whose pilots and crew were Caucasian, because there was no integration at that time, during World War II, they would always ask for the Red Tails because they never lost a bomber. And that was quite a record to be a part of something like that. But Merrill came back to teach school after the war was over, which he was teaching before he left. And I think that was just one of his goals because he loved teaching and he loved the children and seemingly they loved him. - Do you remember any stories he would tell about his training at Tuskegee or the friends he met or any sort of his experiences while during training at Tuskegee? - Yes. He has a dear friend now that we hear from all the time that lives in Washington DC, he just lost his wife, Billy Fauntroy, and they were classmates. Billy was quite young because most of the fellows there at Tuskegee had finished college, and Billy had just finished high school. But he happened to be in Merrill's class and they flew together a couple of times during training. We still hear from him and he's a wonderful man. Merrill also told us that a lot of times when he would go home or different places on leave that if there were other soldiers on the sidewalk approaching him, they would cross the street to keep from saluting because he was an officer and they did not want to do that, the Caucasian youngsters. - Now was he off the base in the Tuskegee? Is that when he was off the base in Tuskegee? - Yes, and even when he came home in Kentucky and others would be on furlough or what have you that were not commissioned officers, they'd cross the street too. Because whenever you saw, or were in the presence of an officer, you saluted, regardless of your race or whatever or wherever you were. But he had some experiences like that. And then one reason why he came back to teaching, he did want to be a commercial pilot but when he went to, and some others went to apply, they said, "Don't waste your time, they threw their applications in the waste basket because they weren't hiring any blacks." But when he came back and some of his students that he taught became commercial pilots and he was so proud of them. And he just thought that was wonderful. And every time they'd come back, they'd come to see him. And then, Merrill was an only child, well the only sibling that survived in his family, and his parents, his father was such a strong man and his mother too but she was sickly a lot and she worried about him being the service and being an only child. That was one of his reasons for coming home when he did because he would have stayed in longer he said. - What were some of the other training experiences he had? What kind of other things did he... Do you remember what he said he had to do or had to learn? Do you remember any of that? - Oh, oh yes. They had quite a rigorous program and they also had, they had black and white instructors at Tuskegee. Of course, like I said, the program was really not to succeed but because they were determined and the officer that was over them, the commanding officer at the time, he was determined that they were going to succeed and the program would go over. - Was that commanding officer black or white? - He was white. But that was while Ben Davis was overseas because, at one time, Ben Davis, who was black, he's deceased now, but quite an officer. He was a West Point graduate. And he was overseas when this other man was over them at Tuskegee and... - So he never encountered any white officers who were not as supportive? - Well, one instructor was quite difficult. In fact, I think they called it, they called it another name. He had given him a red check or something and that was on the verge of him being washed out. But in the meantime the other instructors who had him before gave him such high rating that he said, "Well let's just try this again." And they said, "Well, I couldn't have flown it or I couldn't have landed it any better." And so he was able to pass through. But this other man was on his neck and he was not sure that he was going to make it. - Did he ever talk about some of his flying, they weren't missions, but his flying exercises? - Oh yes, he loved the acrobats. He loved the acrobatic part. In fact, he went out here to Combat Air Museum one time, I wasn't with him, and that's when his vision was getting bad but he was able to go. He went out with a friend, he wasn't driving then, but he went out with a friend and this pilot became... They started talking and everything, so the pilot wanted to take him up, and he said, "Oh yes, let's go up." So he went up with the pilot and the pilot said, "Now what would you like for me to do?" And Merrill said, "How about some slow rolls and some snap rolls and-." He said, "Barbara, I'm just so sorry you weren't there." I said, "I'm so glad I wasn't." But he loved that, he loved the acrobatic part. And then one time he was on a, I don't know whether it was a mission, but they had them do so many hours soloing, he was soloing at the time. And he said, "I got so carried away being up there, I looked down and I was lost." And he said, "I didn't know where I was." And he said, "I pulled my map", or whatever it was that they do, and he checked some railroad tracks and he found his way back by doing that. Because one of his friends flew and got lost on flights and the instructor had to go and get him but he didn't make it. He didn't make it. - Do you know what kind of airplane he was flying? - It was called, it was an AT-6, that's what the advanced training plane was. But the other plane that they flew when they went overseas was a 51, right Merrill? - Mm-hmm. - All right. Merrill didn't have a chance to fly that one. Oh he wanted to so badly. But when we heard, and he heard from some of his friends and some of the people that were over there, and they had... I want to get it right now, When the mechanics would have to work on their planes, after they'd maybe been on a mission or had a little problem, it was always junkyard material. There wasn't anything new. They had to put things together for those fellows to be able to fly over there and do what they did. - Now is that because the military was generally low on those kind of resources or was that just an allocation for the Tuskegee Airmen? - I think it was an allocation for the Tuskegee Airmen. Because I don't think they were that low, at that particular time. - So those mechanics were crucial to their survival? - Oh, yes. And they were something else. Those fellows were something else. - So I'm really stupid about war, so help me with this, so did these mechanics go overseas with them? - They went overseas with them, yes they did, mm-hmm. And Ben Davis, like I had said before, who was over the group, he was the one that had to come back. Because they had written about the Tuskegee Airmen in some of the newspapers, saying they weren't doing anything and things like that, and Ben Davis went to Washington before a group and told what they actually did. He stood up for his men. He was very outstanding. Like I said, he was a West Point graduate and while he was at West Point, can you imagine, no one talked to him unless they were giving him an order to do something. But no one talked to him. He'd go to classes, no one talked to him. Can you imagine going to school and not having anybody talking to you? And he finished. And became very outstanding. And I had the opportunity to meet him when I was visiting my sister and brother-in-law. - When Mr. Ross said he entered the military, was he drafted? - Yes, he was drafted. - Did you describe that and I just didn't hear that or? - No, I did- - Did you know about his drafting, what the circumstances were? - No, he just told me some things. He went in late. He was working on his master's and he was able to stay in school because of that. But then it came to the point where he had to go and when he did go, he was teaching sixth grade, I think it was, 'cause he hadn't been there very long, he hadn't been in Topeka very long. And Mr. Slaughter was in his class of, Sally Slaughter's brother? - John or? - John. John Slaughter was in his class. Owen Sheehan was another one that was in his class and several others. But John said that they all cried when Mr. Ross had to leave when he had to go to the service. - What did his parents think about his going to war? Do you remember? Did he ever talk about it? - Well, it worried his mother because, like I said, he was an only child. When he was growing up, Merrill was very adventuresome. Adventurous or adventuresome, and he learned to swim and his parents didn't know it. He could swim across the Cumberland River, which was in front of his house and he could swim across underneath the water until he got to the other side. They didn't want him to play football and he played sandlot football all the time. There was a young high school boy that was killed when he was tackled, his neck was broken, and they didn't want Merrill to play football. So Merrill said well if ever he had a boy, he was going to have him exposed to all of those things and decide which one he would like. And, of course, when Brian was born, he was exposed to all of those things. - In terms of the war, where were you when war broke out? Do you remember? - When the war broke out I was in high school, I'd say. And I was attending Garnet High School, which was in Charleston, West Virginia. Black high school. And I was a majorette in the school band and two years before, when the war hadn't really gotten started, we had the opportunity to go to New York, Chicago, and Atlantic City. And we played at the World's Fair and we paraded down the streets of New York, which was quite, for a youngster in high school, you can imagine how that made us feel. And we were to go to California but the war had broken out then and I missed the opportunity of going as their leader, as the head majorette. But that was something that I really enjoyed. I still have my baton, it's down in the basement. And after I came here, when they had the Carver Y, I had a group of young girls and I taught them to twirl, and when they went to middle school, as they call it now, each one of 'em made the drill team. And that was quite an experience, too. - So, during the war, what did your parents do? - Oh, during the war? Well, when I graduated from Garnet High School, I went on to West Virginia State, which is University now. And I finished there and that's when I was visiting my sister and brother-in-law at Lockbourne Air Base, because he was a Tuskegee Airman also, my brother-in-law was, my sister's husband who's deceased. But while I was in college, of course, you know, there were very few men on campus, so I just tried to get out as soon as I could, so I could get a job. And, while I was down there, though, my brother-in-law and some of his friends, at that time, they had transferred from the fighter plane to the bomber plane, the Billy Mitchell as they called, B-25 as they called it. And he would fly down and buzz the campus, which was really against the law. Because he attended school there, but I guess he wanted to let the people know who it was coming to see 'em. Because sometimes I would see them buzzing, they would fly down so low that you could see who was in the plane. And they had to be careful of that because that was ooh, that was really a no no, but you know how men are - And that happened using the United States Army Air Force planes, you know that? Just testing. - Yes - So what did your parents think about the war, did they express any view or? - Oh, yes, they tried to encourage the youngsters to... It was an unfortunate thing, because I know my mother was on the bus one day because we had moved from Charleston to Institute so that the rest of my family, we could all finish school and it was closer. And my mother was riding the bus one day to town and when she got on the bus and sat beside this woman. The lady was very pleasant and everything. And the bus driver knew just about everybody, you know it was his route, and he stopped the bus to wait for this black fellow. - The bus driver's white? - The bus driver's white. And he saw him coming and he just stopped. And the woman beside my mother said, "Why is he stopping for that N?" and my mother said, "And why not?" And she stood up and said, "Our boys are over there fighting protecting you" and the woman looked at mother and said, "I believe you are one of 'em." She said, "I certainly am." And the woman moved and mother sat down with her seat and the bus driver waited for the fellow and he came. But a lot of the people like that and, like I said, one of the bus driver's used to come up to our house all the time. - Well how would you describe at the time of the war, during the war, how would you describe race relations in your community? - Well, in my community, it wasn't as bad as in some of the other areas. We knew we were segregated. We never saw any signs, we just knew we were not supposed to be in a certain area. But we had a lot of own social... The sororities and the fraternities and our churches and our school system. Some of our teachers were very outstanding. In fact, the lady that directed the band had spent time overseas. She had had her doctorate in music and that was way back. And when it was time for us to be in a parade, she would tell 'em up front, "You don't put us in the back or we will not parade." So they would not put us in the back. She had respect from a lot of the Caucasian people. In fact, the man that was over the music in the school district would come and visit her often because he knew what she was doing. She had it together. And the rest of the community, when they did have something, they always tried to find someone who would be outstanding and would represent the race in a good way instead of not just anybody, just cause they were saying a whole lot of stuff. And, you know, there was a time, I'm sure, way back, maybe before I was born, but during that period when I was coming up, it had improved quite a bit. And I know when my dad was working, some of the lawyers would come by and want to take him to lunch. He said, "You know I can't go down there." And they would be so upset. They would forget. They forgot when they were in certain, or I'll say in certain people's company of our race, they'd forget who they were because so many of 'em were as intelligent or more so than, you know. - What memories do you have of Mr. Ross talking about the place that he grew up and race relations there? - His mother and father were very, very well respected people. It was a small community. In fact where he was born, was even smaller. But it's on the map, Flat Lick, Kentucky. That's where he was born. And that's where his grandparents lived. And two of his cousins, who were only children, they were all... Well, they were different ages, but each one was born at the grandmother's house in that special bed. Yes. - You were born at home? - In the same bed. Yes, he was born at home. In fact, my sisters were born at home. I was the only one born in a hospital. And it was a black hospital when I was born. But Merrill was born in his grandparent's home. And his father was a brick mason that went to New York to work. He went all over. And many times the men that were called, oh there'd be about three or four of 'em, maybe a little more than that, when they'd see... At first they couldn't tell what his daddy was, 'cause his mother was Indian, she was the full-blooded Indian. That was where he gets that from. And his father would be with these fellows and of course he was tall and been out in the sun and had these high cheekbones and was strong. He could handle anything. And they would say, "Well, we can take you but we can't take him." And they'd say, "Well, if you can't take him, you can't take us. We can't go with you." So they'd end up taking Papa Ross. And, like I said, he... For a long time they didn't have a telephone because they moved to Pineville, Kentucky, which was a little larger city, and they got a telephone, I think when Merrill went to... Was it when you went to college or went to war? Well, anyway, he said, "If they want me, they can come to the hose and see me." And, sure enough, people would come to the house to engage him to put up a brick home or to whatever but he always had employment, always. And everybody knew him. And, like I said, they were very well respected. His mother was a Sunday School superintendent for years and his father- - What denomination? - She was Baptist and he was Methodist. But they didn't meet every Sunday, so when the Sundays she met at her church, Papa would be at the Baptist church. When the Baptist church didn't meet, she would be at the Methodist church with Papa. And then we would also, when our children were born and we'd go and visit them, they would always wait for us to come to Flat Lick to have service. And, so when the Ross's came, the service would start. And we went to see that little church not too long ago and it is just beautiful. They've kept it up, kept it in condition. It looked like a little story book place. Merrill, he did run into more things than I did growing up because he used to take up tickets at the theater and, of course, he'd have to go up the back way, that's where the blacks had to go, the back way, they went in the back way, and he'd take tickets up at the black side and then there was a white girl who took it up for the other side. And, you know, young people, a lot of 'em don't think about things. She and Merrill became very good friends and sometimes they'd just walk home together. But one boy told him, one boy told him, that he just wanted to warn him, that there was some fellows getting together and they were going to beat Merrill up. And after that Merrill just tried to stay away from 'em. he said, "I can take 'em one at a time but not all of 'em beating on me." But he had experiences like that, uh-huh, yeah. - In terms of your life after the war... What was my question? Hang on. - I wanted to tell you something else about him. - Oh, go right ahead. - When he would, he and a group of his friends, cleaned out an area for them to go swimming and, of course, it was a different area than where the whites were, naturally. And when they would go swimming, one time they went swimming and this man came out with his rifle and started shooting and they were able to leave, to get away. And I don't know what happened after that. Merrill told me but I didn't remember too much. He didn't hurt anybody but then it got so that they all were just kind of swimming together, you know. I don't think he could do too much about that 'cause if he'd start shooting then he'd be shooting some of his own. But they had experiences, you know, where they just... - What was life like after the war for both you and Mr. Ross? - Okay. After the war, things started opening up. It was a lot different. - What do you mean opened up? - Opened up, like you could go and eat. Well, now this was in the Northern States, because when we first got married, and you couldn't do that here. When we first got married, we were in Minnesota because he was going to school for the summers. And we could go any place and eat. We could go to the show and sit any place. We could go to any nightclub that we wanted to and we would see mixed couples. And, of course, I hadn't seen that too much. I knew it happened but... Billie Holiday was appearing at one of the clubs and we went to see her and I looked over and saw this black princess, she was the prettiest girl, had the prettiest skin I'd ever seen, the color of your shirt, and this white fellow was with her and he was about to eat her up. And, you know, I couldn't listen to Billie Holiday for watching them because it was, to me it was kinda funny, you know, it was interesting. We had- - Was that your first experience of having that kind of openness in public accommodation? - Yes and no. Well, I guess it, I'd say it was my first. I'm just trying to think. Like I said, my area, everything... We didn't pay too much attention to the other race until we saw 'em someplace. There were so many things that we had of our own and in a way that was a good thing. But when we did go to Minnesota, it was very nice. And we went there two summers and we enjoyed it very much. I had been to Cleveland before as a youngster and it was the same thing, in Cleveland, Ohio it wasn't... You could go anyplace. - What about when you came to Kansas? What made you come to Kansas? - Well, like I said, I was looking for a job and I was sent some papers to fill out and everything, you know, in case the superintendent accepted me, which he did. - And that was? - McFarland. - That was superintendent of Topeka Public Schools? - Yes, Topeka Public Schools. And when I came here, it was a lot like my home town, a little different, but it wasn't quite as open but it was a lot like it. And, of course, I started at Washington School. But when I was growing up, I lived in a mixed neighborhood And I lived right beside a white school and the school across the street was white but we had to walk several blocks to get to our school. And we just thought that was supposed to be. It wasn't... And then when they integrated though, this is the thing, when they integrated, they just opened up everything right away. There was no march, no sit-ins, no nothing. - You mean here or in Charleston? - No, in Charleston. And here wasn't like those other places either, like Arkansas and Virginia. Now Virginia was right next door to us. But West Virginia, I've had to tell people, I'm from West Virginia, not Virginia. West Virginia was not a slave state, that's why they separated. - And when you were talking about... What was Kansas like when you came here, in terms of public accommodations and that sort of thing? - About the same. Like I said, we couldn't go... We had to sit in the, they called it the crow's nest and at the Jayhawk and the Grand. - What was your relationship with McFarland? Did you ever see him, talk to him, have a meeting with him or anything of that sort? - When I was interviewed. And that was the only time that I... Well, I would see him when we would have our meetings and he would come to speak like that. But on a one-to-one basis, that was the only time I saw him. McFarland was a very smart man but McFarland was for McFarland and I think a lot of people knew that. He had a brilliant mind. He could name all of the teachers that were, had been hired for this particular year, I think there were ninety-some, and he could call their names, tell what school they attended before they got there and where they would be teaching after they got there, without any paper or anything. - How did you get the assignment to Washington? - It happened to be an opening, that's why. And it was a second grade. Then, after Merrill and I married, there was a shortage, because I couldn't teach and he didn't want me to. We wanted a family and, since the family hadn't started, and there was a shortage, they asked me to come back to Washington and that's when I had you in the second... I had second and third grade then. - So do you remember at any point, and this is just a bit, when they did allow women teachers to marry in the public schools, by the time you came here that was allowed, I would assume? - Four years after I was here. - Oh, four years after- - Right, uh-huh. Because that's when Geraldine Gillam, Ethel Barber, somebody else and I, we all married about the same time. Oh, Dorothy Bradshaw. Because they changed that law, I think it must have been in '49 or '50, it was right there, because we married in '51. - So that was very recent? - Mm-hmm. And then, after that, I could not be married while he was a principal. He would have had to go back as a teacher and I would teach. That's how they would hire me. That's why J.B. went back as a teacher, so Flossie could teach. - But when I was at Washington School, Mr. Ross was there and you were there. - Right and that was only because it was a shortage. That was just something special that I feel. I wasn't permanent. I was temporary. - Okay, but he was principal. - Oh he was principal because he'd come by the room to see if I was sitting down or standing. - Because you were- - I wasn't showing then. - You were pregnant. - But I was pregnant because I was about to lose Karen and the doctor told me to go home, prop your feet up. And that's when I'd have the morning sickness in the evening. Thank goodness I didn't have it in the morning, I probably wouldn't have been able to go to school. But, I was about six weeks pregnant. - And so during all this time of... In your view, when you look back on it, what impact do you think World War II has had on your life and Mr. Ross's life? I mean what kind of things would you relate World War II to your lives or would you? - Yes, because that's when they... And we're talking about opening up things, that's when they integrated right after that. Of course Truman did it but the armed forces became integrated and there were other things that happened as far as integration was concerned. - Were you surprised that this occurred? - No, I really wasn't, uh-uh. It was a good thing. I said, it was a good thing, in one way. We lost a lot of things, though, but it was good in another way because you got to, you had the opportunity to meet other people. You know, so many people, because before I went back to teach kindergarten, I was working at Shawnee Federal Savings and Loan then Karen and Brian were born. But I went back... I had to go back to school to be re-certified because I had stayed home so long and that's when I went back to Shawnee Federal. - Going back to World War II, some people say that World War II raised the expectations of African Americans and one was for increase in opportunities. Would you agree with that or not? And, if so, why? Or, And if not, why? - Well... - And just your own life experiences. Based on your own life. - I wouldn't say that it did everything. There were opportunities for us after the war that came up. And some of the things that happened, like the Tuskegee Airmen and the recognition that they had with the people that really knew what they did. But I wouldn't say World War II was responsible because there were so many things that needed to be changed, even after the war was over. And I know Merrill had some experiences here, in his teaching and being a principal that people felt, in some of his meetings that he would go to, people felt that people on the east side weren't interested in their children and he, you know, as you stand up as one or... He stood up at that meeting and told me what he told them, and he said, "Barbara," he said, "I told 'em, 'I know better than that because I was over there and taught them and those parents want the same thing that yours on the west side want. Some of 'em just don't have the money'." And the schools didn't... They had schools whose parents, both parents were working and had good jobs or maybe one parent was working and had a good job, and if the school needed something, those parents got together and got it for them. A type of machinery or material or books or program or whatever. And he was very outspoken about that. Every time he'd go to a meeting. And then, of course, he also was on the book committee, because there for a while people thought that... Especially while we were here, and I don't know what happened years back, but years back I do know that the black children went to the white schools but there were not black teachers. No black teachers. And that's why they built the four black schools. - In talking about your process of this, have you talked in other interviews about your first teaching experience in non-black schools? Have you talked about that before? - I think I have because somebody was asking me and I told 'em, I said, "Well, I had no problem at all." And they couldn't understand that living where I had lived and attending a black school all my life, even college, the college was black, we had a few Caucasian instructors and I had one of them but we didn't. I think it was the way I was brought up. Like I said, I lived in a mixed neighborhood and my father's job, the position that he had, I was thrown into white situations many times and so it wasn't any big or uncomfortable thing for me. I was just used to that. - What about Mr. Ross's position as principal or leader of a non-black school? What kind of experiences do you recall with that? - Okay. When he went, Merrill was a very conscientious person and he wanted to do the very best, whatever he was in, and he did. And when he went to West Avondale, which was an all-white with all-white teachers and pupils, I don't think he had any black children until he was there two or three years or something like that, maybe a little longer. But I know he wanted to... He was trying to be very careful, in many ways, and he was and he never called any of his teachers by the first name. They were always Miss or Mister, Missus or Miss or Mister and the Mister one's told him, said, "Don't call us that, call us by our first name." Which he did because he became close to them and one or two of them he did, later on, but on a whole he would call 'em, you know. And one of 'em came to me one time and said, she was teaching at the school where I was teaching after Merrill and I had been married and, well it was right up here, and she said, "I'll say this about your husband, He was always a perfect gentleman." He never got familiar. You know, some of 'em forget and they get familiar and they get kinda... But she said, "He never was that way," and said, "He never did discuss other teachers with other teachers." - In the stories, some people say that when Mr. Ross and others entered these non-black schools, that sometimes the school board members would call up parents of the white students to see if they would accept the black teachers and/or principals. Is that true? - The only thing that happened with Merrill was when he first went out there and he got a lot of Forbes, that was the military and they were still active. The commanding officer out there called Merrill and told him if he had any trouble with any of those parents or children, to let him know. Now Merrill he came and told me that, said the officer called and told him, said he was supporting him because Merrill had a lot of those military children and, see, some of them- - Did they know Mr. Ross was a veteran and had been in the Army Air Corps? - Oh, I'm sure they had, but the commanding officer sure called him up and told him. He called him at school and told him that if he... Of course, probably some of them didn't care whether he'd been in the service or not. And then a lot of the board members at times, which I didn't think was... Well not just the board members, but the board, if there was something that had to be out into the community they'd say, "Don't send Merrill or Owen or Forrest because they don't represent the race that well, as far as their complexion." - Okay. I want to have our- - Now that's the only thing that - Right, uh-huh. - But this other didn't- - I'm going to have Carol Burns, who is a PhD student in Film Studies who is working with us on this project, did you want to begin to ask some of the questions you had formulated? - I had a few questions. Let me see if I can... Not to double up on some of these things. I had read an article called "Walking the Walk" that Barbara Hollingsworth had written here in the Capitol-Journal, and you were talking about, this was your quote Barbara, about "We were taught that everybody was an equal. Nothing had to do with the color of a person's skin. It was one's character and our parents stressed that." - Yes, my parents. - Your parents. - And Merrill's too. - And Merrill's parents. So, with this generational difference, I was talking with Deborah on the way over here and I was wondering and I wrote this down, what has changed in terms of the character of the black community since integration began, racial integration began, regarding that type of upbringing, or what would you call that? - Values that you - Values system. What do see it as? - Well I can't speak for all of them because we always hear bad things on the news about the children and things are different now and they are because they... Now they're, and I hate to say this, but there are some that... Children are having children, more or less. And they don't stress the things. Like when Deborah's parents.... I taught Deborah and they stressed things, there were certain morals and things that were, that you had to go by. And not that they weren't... Not that they couldn't have fun but there's a place and a time for everything. And I think now they're forgetting that because they are looking at... Well, there's so much television with so much going on and you do what you want to do as long as you have the money. And they are admiring the movie stars who are living any kind of way and having their families the way they want to have 'em and I think many of our young people are doing the same thing and it's sad. - So it's no necessarily a racial thing but a social? - Right. - Across the board, whether they be Indian or black or- - Right, right. - Okay. Also, in that same line of thinking, Barbara also said, and I'll quote her, she said, "What we didn't realize was knocking down the barriers of Jim Crow, it broke up our communities, not just the black or the Indian or the white." So it's just, there's nothing that is- - Yes, they don't have that community togetherness as they used to have because of integration. And, in fact, there are a lot of other things that have happened. We're blending in with, and there's nothing wrong with understanding each race, I think when you know a person and we all come together as one, that's wonderful. But sometimes we just... Well, we just lost some of those, some of those characteristics that were important. I believe, and this is what has happened, I think as long as a woman is doing a man's job, I'm getting on women's lib right now, she should be paid what he's getting. But I still think that man needs to open the door for her and help her in a lot of other ways, like a man should. Just because you can do what a man can do, it doesn't mean that you have given up your feminine ways and you're trying to be a man. It doesn't mean that at all. So I did want to get that over because I think sometimes they get the mistaken idea that, "Well he can't do that, I can do that better." Well, yes, you can probably on your job but I still think they need to... Because that's why sometimes a lot of our men are so lazy. They don't want to do it because they know that the girls can do it for them, or the women. You keep doing something for somebody you... 'Cause I had one or two say to me, "Mother, Daddy's spoiling you." I said, "He's supposed to." - That was going to be my next comment. - Oh, was it? - It feels like you and Merrill have maintained a solid community or sense or integrity or something that has been carried over into the larger Topeka area. I've been reading some really good things about you. - Well thank you very much. I don't know. One person approached me and said, "Do you feel that you are inferior" Well, I don't know whether it was inferior but it was something like that. "towards Merrill?" I said, "Why would I feel that way?" I said, "He's my husband, I'm supposed to be behind him but I'm not competing with him at all." I mean, he encouraged me to go back to work. I kept saying, "Merrill I need to go back to work if these children are going to college." We don't have enough money just for him to send 'em. I said, "I need to go back to work." And that's why I did. And he encouraged me. And when I would be up at this school and he had retired, he would come up there and help me with my things that I had to do. Even when he hadn't retired, he would still come after hours and help me do things. So, I depended on him and he depended on me. - That's how you've made it 60 years? - Yes. Honey, are you cold? Are you cold? - Cold? - Are you chilly? - Are you a little chilly? 'Cause he's sitting right next to- - Yeah. - I like you're Obama shirt. - Oh thank you. Brian got that. - Brian? - Did you get your shirt when you met the president? Did you get your shirt when you met the president? - Oh, he got it after that. I'll tell you what. Washington, DC when he went to the inauguration. Brian took him - Oh yeah. - And it was... Because it was too cold for me to go but Brian had him all wrapped up. And I think it would be nice for Brian to tell what happened because I wasn't with him. - Oh, okay. - If that's all right? - Yes ma'am, uh-huh. But when you get through with that. - I'm gonna put this microphone... I'm gonna ask you a little bit about when you grew up. - When I grew up? - Yeah, what do you remember? What's your favorite memory when you were a child? Or how did you get into flying? That's something. - Ask him about Flat Lick. - Flat Lick. - Flat Lick? My grandparents... I spent Excuse me a minute. - Here have a sip of water. - All right. - You all right dad? - Yes, son. - Can you sip? There you go. - Thank you. - Now your grandparents? - My grandparents? Oh, that I loved dearly. . I called Mama and Papa. I just loved to go and spend time with them. - What was your grandma, she make you some special food? - Every opportunity. Every opportunity. She was a... And she loved children. And I guess I loved the fact that she loved children because she loved everyone that came to, her home to associate with me. And of course my grandfather was crippled because... I guess you might say age has it's thing about crippling certain people. And Papa was one of those. But I loved the two of them dearly. - Didn't Clay Paton, didn't your grandfather chase you up a tree? - No, I kept climbing myself, to get away from him . - You'd done something wrong and he chased you up a tree and you just stayed there and he stayed under the tree and tried to wait it out with you to see who was going to give. You did something you shouldn't have been doing. - Brian, since you're here, they honored the Tuskegee Airmen at the inauguration of President Obama. Do you wanna describe what that experience was like? - It was- - And how you got invited? Tell the whole details of it. - Well, as far as how we got invited, you know dad being one of the Tuskegee Airmen, one of the local chapters, I believe, here in Kansas City, had called me. And I don't know if he called mom at first and then she gave them my number. And he contacted me and he discussed, basically, what was going to take place and what it was about and- - And what was it about? - Well, it was about Obama wanting to honor the Tuskegee Airmen that, I guess he felt that over the years, maybe that they had been overlooked as far as their contribution with respect to the United States military. How they protect our country. I mean as far as the participants that were involved in every World War, per se, that we've been involved in. And he wanted to recognize them before it was too late, because a lot of them had died. However there were quite a few that were still living. So, anyway, I spoke with this gentleman and he gave me all the information I needed and told me about the plans for the program, the criteria, where it was going to be staged initially. And we actually, once the inauguration, the day of the inauguration... Of course, prior to that, we received all the information we needed as far as where we were going to be, which was Andrews Air Force Base. And they had a breakfast for all the Tuskegee Airmen and, from that point, all the airmen took buses to the grounds, the Capital grounds, as far as where the inauguration was going to take place. And they had a section that they had roped off strictly for the Tuskegee Airmen. So they got the red carpet treatment as far as participating and being present, having a place to sit. It was out on the yard, so there were chairs that were set up, particular section. And it was a huge turnout. And it was almost like being a professional athlete or rock star type treatment, where we got escorted in and there were people on either side, as far as their own limitations where they could sit and what have you. But they, I believe, were alerted to the fact that the Tuskegee Airmen were arriving. And as they arrived, it was just like a standing ovation for all of the men that were escorted in, whether they were walking or whether they were coming in in wheelchairs and what have you. And actually dad and I walked in. At that time, he was able to walk in. And it was very cold that day, so I made sure he had the proper attire on so he wouldn't freeze to death. Because there were a lot of elderly men out there, so that was very important. It was a real cold day. But I had his insulated clothing on and we sat up there and he knew what was going on and he just kept telling me, he said, "This is amazing that I have lived to witness the inauguration of an African American president." And that was one of the things that you continued to hear from most of the Airmen. You know, that this day had arrived. Because it's something that they kept saying they would have never have imagined this to happen. - Did your dad... Was he able to meet any friends that he had known while he was in- - Oh yes. A very dear friend of the family, Clarence Jamison, who is like my uncle, he is from Shaker Heights, Ohio and he was there with his son Clifford. And Uncle Jamie was one of the first Tuskegee Airmen and his picture actually is in the Smithsonian Institute up in Washington, where I've been able to walk through there and let people know, "Hey there's my uncle up on the wall." - Still living. - Still living. - 90-something. - And interestingly enough, I have to give credit to a good friend of dad's, who really he was in the same class with dad, but he didn't actually... He didn't stay long enough to pass the class, it wasn't that he didn't have the acumen to do so. But he returned to Washington to take care of his mother. But this gentleman's name was William Fauntroy and he is the older brother of the former Congressman and former pastor, Walter Fauntroy up in Washington, DC. And he had always... Living in Washington, DC, there are a lot of times he had access to certain events that took place that were relative to the Tuskegee Airmen and he would always contact dad and let him know, keep him up to dat and current on what was going on. So he was there at the breakfast as well. And, of course, I mean for me, it's, in retrospect now, it's amazing to me because when I was young I didn't pay much attention to the significance of what he was doing when I was a child. "Oh, okay dad, you're a Tuskegee Airman, great. When are you going to take me to McDonald's?" You know, you have that kind of attitude when you're really young but, as time progressed, I was like, "This is really something, this is a big deal." And when other people ask me, "Your dad was a Tuskegee Airman?" They're like, "That's huge." Not only that, when I can tell them... 'Cause some of 'em don't even know one but I actually had three in my family, if you will, 'cause Uncle Jamie was considered part of the family. - Uncle Hooks. And Uncle Hooks who is... He had a chapter named after him in Denver, Hooks Jones. And he was one as well. So that in itself is a blessing. And it's just amazing to me to this day. I've never been one to want to brag about my dad or my mom for their accomplishments but, as I've gotten older, sometimes I find myself doing that and still trying to remain humble in doing it. But to be there and to be allowed to watch the inauguration of our first African American president and dad having the opportunity to be there and all the Tuskegee Airmen, it was just indescribable. It was a feeling of something that I will never forget and it was just part of history and a very important part of history as far as what they contributed to the United States military force. - Did you want to continue, Carol? Did you have some more questions to ask? - A lot of 'em have been answered in passing. So, is there anything we didn't cover that you're interested in talking about? - Did you talk about the Topeka High Ramblers? - Oh the Ramblers. - Don't let me get goin' on that one. - Would someone here, who is Mrs. Ross, speak about the Ramblers, please? Who were they? - The Ramblers were the basketball team of Topeka High, the separate that several years, and of course they... I have a pamphlet right in there that I can share with you. But anyway, Merrill was the last one that was the coach. It was a basketball team. And Jack Alexander and Richard Ridley and Donald Redman, they were on the team. I think they were one the last team when... No, Richard wasn't but Jack was because he was a little younger than they. But they had that team because they didn't integrate the basketball at Topeka High School. So they had several coaches. During the war, they would kind of rotate, 'cause Jim Parks was an assistant coach there at one time and then, of course, after the war, when Merrill came here, he was a coach. And, so they- - So did Mr. Ross teach at Topeka High while he was a coach? What was his capacity? - His capacity was elementary. Washington, Buchanan, McKinley and Monroe. He taught at all four of those schools. - But was he also serving as principal at the time or did the- - No, no. He was just a classroom teacher. - So he taught at all those? Sixth grade? - Isn't he the only one that taught at all? - At all four of 'em, mm-hmm. - Why did Merrill relocate? What were the circumstances of Merrill coming to Topeka? - Merrill was at school. Well his aunt thought the schools were very good out here and so she wanted him to come and finish up at Pittsburg State Teachers College. She was living there at the time. Aunt Valeria. - Aunt Valeria. - And you've probably heard of the name Caldwell? She was married to him. But it was Merrill's aunt that encouraged him to come here, to this section. He went to Kentucky State two years and then he finished up at Pittsburg State Teachers College and that's where he did his civilian pilot training, at Pittsburg. - As well as pledging Q Psi at Kentucky State, the Psi Psi chapter. - Mrs. Ross, could you please continue your story and let the Q's go? - You know he had to be a devil. - I know, I know. - Like father, like son. - Yeah, I know, I know. Okay, Omega Psi Phi is here in the house, we know that. So can he go and talk? - Okay. So she encouraged him to come out there. And, of course, when he came, he taught at Fort Scott after he finished Pittsburg. And then from Fort Scott he came here but he was only here a few weeks. That's when they called him to the service. And then he came back here. He wrote and asked them if he still had a job when he got out of the service and they said yes. - So it was from Fort Scott to war. Or Fort Scott to Topeka, then the war and then back to Topeka? - Mm-hmm. - Okay. - Were you on the front lines Brown versus the Board? It seems like, at that time? - Yes. Well, We were... How can I say this? When they were trying to integrate, they realized, after the fact, that they did have to integrate the teachers. They couldn't just leave them out in the boonies. And when they did that, Merrill had a meeting with one of the superintendents, he was acting superintendent at that time, and he told Merrill that he wanted him to go to Parkdale School as an assistant because he felt that the people weren't ready for a black principal over there. Now Parkdale was just a few blocks from Washington School, which was the black school. The white school was Parkdale. So when Merrill came home and told me that that's what the superintendent wanted him to do, he said, "I am leaving town. We are not going to stay here because I am not going to be under a certain person that I can't believe in and we'll just-" Well, in the meantime we did go to Milwaukee. He had an interview there with the man and the man wanted to know who, 'cause Merrill didn't know it but Dr. Talman, Giles Talman, who was over the curriculum here at the time, he didn't know what Dr. Talman had written or anything. So this fellow who was interviewing him up there, he said, "Good gracious, you are a Jackie Robinson or something," and Merrill didn't know what he was talking about because he hadn't read the letter, he hadn't seen what Dr. Talman had written. A beautiful, beautiful recommendation for him. If that's where Merrill wanted to go. But then we came back and the superintendent died, had a heart attack and died, and, in the meantime, the acting superintendent, who knew Merrill very well and had been at East Topeka said, "Buddy, don't give up, there's something out there for you." And that's when they called him, that summer, and asked if he could come down to talk with them at the Board. Merrill was out painting. He said, "Well I've got to change my clothes now. As soon as that I'll come down." And, so, that's when they sent him to West Avondale, they asked him if he'd like to go there and he said, "I'll certainly do my very best." - But he wasn't going to be assistant principal at Parkdale? - He was not going to. But that blew over when Winsome died. - Did you want to ask anymore questions. - No. - Okay. - Let me just ask some ending questions and if you think of some other things you want to say, you know you can stop me and go on. In your memory, are there any things that Mr. Ross indicated throughout your experiences with him that he enjoyed the most as a soldier? What things did he enjoy most as a soldier. - Getting up in the airplane and doing his acrobatics. - Do you remember his talking about his process of being discharged? - No, because when the war was over, he stayed in for a few months and that's when he wrote his letter here and asked if he still had a job and they said yes. And, of course, his mother was worried sick because of him being a fighter pilot. I don't think it would have bothered her if he had gone in and was accepted as a commercial pilot, that wouldn't have bothered her, but the fact that he was fighting and his life was in danger. He got out because of that, mm-hmm. - But he had an honorable discharge? - He had an honorable discharge. Oh yeah, mm-hmm. - I just remember he being a disciplinarian. - And why do you say that, Brian? Is this something you're associating with his military experience? - Well from all of the country stories I heard from when he was a youngster. How he had evolved and how he ran his household, yeah. - So the discipline is very much a priority? - Yes. - How do you think Mister... And you're remembering memories of, you were talking about the war. How does Mr. Ross view his participation in the war? - Well, he wanted to be in the Air Force, he did not want to be a foot soldier. He started out as being in the artillery. And he told me about some of the guns and things that they would shoot in practice and he was quite familiar with them but that was not what he wanted. He wanted to be a Tuskegee Airman and he wanted to be a fighter pilot. So when he went to, like I had said earlier, when he went to Fort Bragg and came in contact with this young lieutenant who was over them, who was very understanding, he told Merrill to check around to see if any of the others wanted to be and he'd see what he could do. And that's when it started. They had to take a series of tests, quite a few. Physical, academic and what have you. - So he enjoyed and he wanted to participate in the war and so- - Yes, yes, mm-hmm. - Did you all join any veteran's organizations or engage in veteran's activities after the war? - Other than he wanted to... He kept in touch with the Tuskegee Airmen but he always wanted to go to their, they had conventions. He never was able to go because he had to start school that first week and they would not let him go. So one day, when they were meeting in Denver, they were having their convention in Denver, and it was Merrill's class that was on the bulletin board out there for the convention. After we got there we saw that. They told him he he'd be docked, if he went he'd be docked. He said, "Well you just dock me, because I'm going and I never have had the opportunity to go." So he went to Denver. That was the first time he had a chance to see some of his... And he really saw some of his dear friends because one of them, at the time, that was in the service when he was a football player at Michigan and his name was Derricotte. - Gene Derricotte. - Gene Derricotte. He was outstanding. Well he ended up being a dental surgeon at the... - Military? Walter Reed? - No, at... - No, at the... - We are all probably not gonna know. - It wasn't Walter Reed? - Colorado Springs. - Oh, oh, I know what you're talking about. The Air Force Academy? - Yeah, he was Air Force Academy. That's where he was a dental surgeon there. And then he saw another friend who had gone into... He had his own undertaking business. And his name was Lincoln Ragsdale. So he had a chance to see quite a few then, because they were a little younger then. Then when we went to the one in Kansas City, he had retired then, I think, and we went to that one. - So the Tuskegee Airmen have had this organization for a long time? - Oh yes, mm-hmm. - Is there anything else you would like to add, about either your life experiences, the military experiences or anything else that you would like to add? - Well, I'll tell you this. It's gone by so fast. And, I guess, when you're having fun, things do go by fast. And it doesn't seem like that all of these things have happened and I've had a good life. - We want to thank you both for your time and your effort. And we've taken a lot of your time, so we certainly do appreciate it. Mrs. Barbara Ross, Mr. Brian Ross and, most important of all, Mr. Merrill Ross. Thank you so much for your time. - Oh you are welcome. It was our pleasure. And I'm sorry I got choked up at the end but- - No, you made me get choked up. - But we-