- Okay, this is October 12, 2010. This is an interview with Mr. William Tarleton, at his home in Topeka, Kansas. Thank you, Mr. Tarleton, for taking time to do an interview for a project documenting African-American World War II veterans in Kansas. We want to begin with just trying to think about some of you, where did you grow up? - Topeka. - And what was your family, where did you grow up in Topeka? - In South Topeka, 1325 Monroe. - How many children were in your family? How many brothers and sisters? - Six boys and two girls. - And what did your parents do for a living? - My dad worked for Santa Fe and my mom was a homemaker. - What kinds of things do you remember about growing up in Topeka? What were some of your household chores? - Cutting wood for the heating stoves and growing the garden and picking cherries in the backyard and playing in the street. - Did you go to church regularly? - St. John's. We went to church regularly at St. John's. We had to. - Do you want to elaborate on that? - Well, every Sunday my dad would get us together and we'd walk from 1325 Monroe to 7th Street St. John's Church. We went to Sunday School and then also went to church. I'm trying to remember-- - No, no rush, no rush. - The Sunday School teacher was, she, Mrs. Robertson, was a she was a school teacher at Highland and Pierce Addition School. Those are some of the things that I remember, other than that, why. - What kinds of things did you enjoy growing up? Any particular games or-- - Baseball, I enjoyed baseball. And I enjoyed football. And we also on the Monroe School ground, why we just played soccer and hockey. - What elementary school did you attend? - Monroe Elementary School. - What do you remember about those days and if someone were just to ask you what your memories are, anything? - Well, we had very good teachers, far as I know. Evidently, some of them, they're not around anymore, but they were very strict and at that time we had corporal punishment and, of course, we all tried to avoid that, 'cause that was very embarrassing. Plus the fact it hurt. - Was this a school that was designated for African-Americans? - Yes it was. It was one of the four schools and this is the one that they'd bus the people from North Topeka clear across town to Monroe School. They had one bus that I know of and they'd pick them up and take them back to North Topeka, where they lived in North Topeka was various locations and I think the Brown's lived, were one of them that came over. - When, when you were going to Monroe School, how did you get to school? - I walked, I only lived three blocks from it. - Oh okay, alright, that's right, that's right. So any other things did you remember about Monroe? Did you have any favorite friends there or anything? Do you remember anybody? - Yes, I had friends, like mostly all neighborhood friends, like Irving Johnson. There was Thaddeus Ferguson and Bobby Brown. I can remember those and they were all the area kids that lived on Monroe that I knew. And then there was some on Quincy that we knew, like Jessie Coleman and-- - What did you guys do? - In the summertime in the evenings, well, we'd be out in the alley shooting marbles. Or we'd get on Monroe hill with our roller skates, or skateboards and come down that hill. And then the other thing that we'd do when we were allowed out of the yard, they made sure that we were in the yard, my folks, and our folks, all of them wouldn't allow us to be out of the yard after about six o'clock, unless they was with us. And we'd go down to Monroe School, after school, play ball on the ball diamond down there and then we'd go back home, 'cause a lot of the schools from over at Washington we used to come over and play ball with us. And then those are the things, some of the things. And the other thing that we used to have down there, that isn't there anymore, there used to be a tennis court between the railroad tracks. - Really? - Yes. And we used to go over there. My sister, my oldest sister, used to play tennis over there on that tennis court. - Was that near where Cushinberry Park is now? - Yes, it was in the Cushinberry Park. - Oh, really? - And it was two railroad tracks. And we used to have to go across one of the railroad tracks and down to this tennis court. It was real nice, there was clay-- - Did you know the city, the city owned it? - There was, there was, yes, clay courts. Yeah, city owned. - So did Black people were they allowed to-- - That was our park. - Uh-huh, oh I see. - It was called Euclid at that time. - Oh, that was Euclid Park? - That was Euclid Park. - Which is Cushinberry Park. - Now, Cushinberry Park now. - I didn't know that. - Yes, it is. That's right. - Hmm, yeah. Was it always that narrow, diamond like, I mean kind of fork-like, so it was always narrow? - Yeah, it was narrow like that, but it was wide enough for, they had two or three tennis courts round there. - I wonder if they had widened those streets probably, I'm thinking. - No, the Monroe Street I think is about, it's wider up from-- - I'm talking about 15th and 17th. - Oh, well from 15th to 17th Street it's about the same width, because that was all ball diamond or it still is, right across the street where the Monroe, I mean the Board of Education. Where Brown versus Board of Education was. - Okay, do you know what time period you entered Monroe School? - Monroe School was built in 1926. - But when did you-- - Wait a minute, now. - Okay, sorry. - I was born in '25, so I got there in, it should've been '30. I was five years old. - So you went to kindergarten? - I went to kindergarten, Mrs. Eggleston. - Yeah, so you were there at the new school. Almost when it had just opened. - It had, it hadn't been open but five or six years before I. - Uh-huh, right, right, that's funny. So after Monroe School, then what did you do? - We went to Crane in Junior High. - Oh. Did you have any memories about Crane in particular? - Oh, I played football there. That was the one, see Crane, you graduated. You got out of the eighth grade there in Monroe. And then you went to ninth grade at junior high. And then we got out of junior high you'd go to 10th grade in Topeka High and that was it. - Were the teachers, was Crane an all Black school? - No-no, no-no, no. No, that's where we got mixed. The school became mixed. I mean, when you went to there, there was mixed white and black when you went to Crane. - What was it like having White teachers? Was this the first time you'd had white teachers? - Yes. - What was it like? Do you remember anything about it? - I got along with them really well. That was one of the things, one of the teachers that I can remember that introduced me to being a mechanic. - Oh, really? - I had science, in science class he was teaching us how the internal combustion engine worked. And I became interested in that and that's when I wanted to be a mechanic. - Wow so, so what about the sports? Were the sports integrated, racially integrated? - Yeah, yes. We played all the White schools, Roosevelt, East Topeka. We played-- - But, you played on the football team? - I was on the football team. - And it was a mixed football team? - Mixed football team. - So then, after Crane. Okay, did you want to say anything else? - No, go. Well, I enjoyed-- - Did you get along with the White teammates? - Yes, we did and I have some friends that went to school with me, that well, we see each other every once in a while. The White friends. - Well, that's great. So what'd you do after Crane? - Well, I entered Topeka High School 10th, 11th, 10th. - 10th grade. - And then I quit. I quit school then and-- - Why'd you quit? - Well I was, you know, my mother had died and dad was raising the family and then I got started getting jobs, I got jobs and started helping a little bit. - So you stopped to work for the-- - Yeah, right. - What kind of jobs were you getting? - Well, I had, I got a variety of jobs, like I had one time I worked for Fred Morris Drugstore. - Oh really? - Yeah, delivered and bused dishes up there and cleaned the tables they used to have on Kansas Avenue. And then I worked for Ed Marling's and it was on Kansas Avenue. - Right, right, yeah. - I worked for them until I, let's see I went to the military. - Okay, let's talk about the military. - Uh-oh. All right. - What were you doing before World War I. Were you in, right before World War I, before 1941 or right before you got into the war do you remember what you were doing? - Before World War I? - Yeah, no before World War II, I mean, right before. - Well, I was mostly in school and then I was, well, see I got out I went from '39 to let's see '40 and then I went to, I was working at let's see, I worked at Fred Morris and then I went to work for Ed Marling's. And then in '43 I was 18 years old. - Oh. - So I had to register for the draft. Then I got drafted. - So, but you were working when you got drafted? - I was working when I got drafted. I was working I can't remember 'cause I was working for Ed Marling when I got drafted and that, but I think it was about '43. And I remember, I remember, yeah, I was working for Ed 'cause see Ed Marling's used to be only an appliance store and then they changed over and started becoming a furniture store. And we was the first ones, we brought those furniture and put those chairs and things together and we worked in the basement right up front. And I worked with a guy by the name of Lee DeMoss. He'd worked for them for years and his wife also worked for them. So, then I worked there until I was drafted into the Service. - So when you were being drafted, how did you view the war before you were drafted? - Ah, now that's something that I never even thought about how did I view the war. I never thought about that. But I knew that they'd bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941 and I thought that we were having some good problems and things like that. Now, I wasn't enthusiastic about going into the Service. I'll tell you that. - Well, what were your concerns? - Well, I was like anybody else you might get killed. They would be fighting us and that was one of the things that I was, yeah, there was a lot of concern. But it turned out that it was probably one of the better things that happened to me. - What did your family and friends think about you joining the military? - I didn't join. I was drafted. - I mean that you were drafted. - They, I really don't know. I don't know their reaction. - Well, how did your dad feel about it? - My dad, he missed me. He knew I had to do it. I mean I couldn't do anything about it, so that's as far as, we never talked about it too much. - Did any of your other siblings go to war? - Oh, yeah. - I mean go to in during World War II? - No, I was the only one that went to World War II in my family. My other brothers they went into Service nine days after I got out of service and they were in the Korean War. - Uh-uh, right. - That was Ed. - Okay, we'll get back to the children. At the time that you entered World War II what was race relations like in Topeka at that time? How would you describe it? - Segregated. - Okay. Do you wanna elaborate on that? - Well, we had certain areas that we could go in and there was other areas we couldn't go in. And they didn't let us in or they'd run us out of. I know that on Monroe Street I lived, we lived at 1325 Monroe Street and on 12th Street, from 12th Street to town was White people lived in there. - Right. - And that was the neighborhood that we didn't venture into. And then there were certain areas, well even over on Madison Street there was White people lived on Madison Street. And I knew some of them. We used to go and play with them, they went to school with us. But we played-- - You mean they went to school with you at Crane? - At Crane. - Right. - Uh-huh, and also Topeka High. - Um, right. - And some of them that I know they were real friendly people but we didn't hang in their neighborhood. That was their neighborhood that was only across the tracks from us. And when we did go across the tracks there was well the Shunganunga Creek used to be up there and they had a place called Big Bend that's where I learned how to swim. They had it over by them big oil tanks.- - That was dangerous, Mr. Tarleton. - Well, we all swam in there and they also had the, oh one other thing out there, to mention about before... There was hobos used to come down in the neighborhood and they come off and jump off the trains and come over in our neighborhood and they were good people. - Um-hm. - They would come over to cut wood for you or do anything, any chore in order just to get some food. And I remember my mother used to feed them out in the back and we had a big bench out in the backyard and table and she would feed them. - Wow. - That was one of the things, they'd get off the train and then they'd do what they had to do and go on back on the train. They would go someone place else or go over to they called it Hobo Jungle. It was over there just off of Madison and there at the Shunganunga. That place is still there but I mean they closed that creek in 'cause I-70 went across there. - When you were playing in the creek in Shunganunga were there, did you play with Whites or Blacks? - Whites and-- - And Blacks, so all of you were playing in that creek. - We played together. - In a dangerous setting. Did you ever remember before you went to the World War II did you remember any racial conflict in the town or were you aware of any? - In here? - Yeah, in-- - Yeah, right they had some riots down there on 4th Street. - Well, explain that to me. I've never heard of this before. - Oh, yeah. They had riots down 4th and Kansas Avenue. They had riots down there. - What was it about? How-- - Just about Blacks and Whites not getting along. The White people lived on Kansas Avenue, Black people was on 4th Street and they'd come all up there and they had fights right there on 4th and Kansas Avenue by the dollar hotel and the a, what is the name of that one that burned down? I can't think of it. But, yeah, they had some riots there. - So it was a constant struggle? - Well, after that one I mean they got it all broke up a little bit but that was, it calmed down a little. - Were there any protests like strikes or anything that were racial or anything? - No, I don't think, I can't remember anything. See there wasn't enough Blacks around. But I mean they had their own thing they was in. And we was off in one whole corner you know? We used to meet the whole city of Blacks down on 4th Street on a Saturday night. - What did 4th Street, what was 4th Street like on Saturday night? - Well, there was Mack's Tavern and there were people that would gather down there. The Ritz Theater and they had all kinds of little honky-tonk things in there. And that's where the gathering place was you'd meet everybody. - Did you get your hair cut there, barbershop? - Oh, yeah, they had a barbershop there. They had a pool halls and they had, believe it or not, they had one pool hall was right in the middle of the section it was segregated in the middle of 4th Street there. - Well, describe that to me. What do you mean? - Well they didn't want anybody, but a lot of it was Mexican owned and the Mexicans they all went to kind of congregating there. And then that was and then see we had the pool hall we went to was Jenkins Pool Hall. - Is that was somebody that was African-American? - Yeah, Jenkins was African-American and he was, Mr. Jenkins. And then, let's see Stump Powers you know he had a liquor well that come back later. But I mean but he and Charlie Riddell had a drugstore down there. - So Riddell's Drugstore was down on 4th Street? - On 4th Street. - Okay. - Yeah, Charlie Riddell, he was a detective. - Right. - And then let's see they had a... It was a barbecue place, they had barbecue places and they had all kinds of place down the 4th Street line. You could go in-- - Was the Carver Y there when you were there? It wasn't there yet was it? - Carver? - Uh-huh. - Yeah, Carver Y was there before, I mean, a long way, that was back in the 40s. - Right, yeah that was right. - And see a lot of stuff down in the 40s see I left here in '43 and I missed a lot. And see when that urban renewal came through, see I didn't that was round about what '48, I mean starting in '50, somewhere. - Yeah, it started in '50. - Well anyway see that was where the Metropolitan Hall is where we used to go to have dances upstairs and the American Legion and all that was down there on 4th Street. - Well, where was Damain studio? Remember Damain Studio which is off of, okay so that didn't have anything to do with, let's go back to the war thing. - All right. - When you entered World War II how did it happen? You got a draft notice. - Yeah. - And then what'd you, remember what you did after that? - Well, when we got drafted there was three of us from Topeka. - Okay. - That went with Eldon Burnett and... Let's see. - Scott? - Wait a minute. Let's see. There was three. I remember Eldon. - But there were three of you. - Yeah, there was three of us that went to Leavenworth. - Oh, that's where you went. - That's where we went to. We had to go to Leavenworth. They took us to Leavenworth and that's where we entered service. And then that was, that's when they just took us they set us into units that we was supposed to be going to. - You remember your unit? - Yeah, they sent me to Camp Lee, Virginia. I don't know where Eldon and Delbert Allen. I don't know where they went. - So what was the name of your unit? - Well, I went at first they trained us. Since I was a mechanic or tried to be or wanted to be that's where they sent me to school to be a mechanic. - Oh. - At Camp Lee, Virginia. - Oh. - And that was where, that was a training place. - Uh-huh. - When I went, when we got ready to go overseas I thought I was gonna go overseas as a mechanic. Well, first thing what happened after we left Camp Lee, Virginia they sent us the Newport News, Virginia where we got on the boat to go overseas. - Was this unit all Black or was it mixed. - It was all, all of us and nothing mixed back then. We had White officers but nothing mixed. - Well, so what you unit were you in? What was the name of it? 370 something or what? - No, it was just a training squadron, unit. Training at Virginia. That's where I got my basic training. - Uh-huh it was at Virginia. - And I don't remember what company, they had company A, B, C and D. - Whatever. - Yeah, but anyway. But when I got ready to go overseas they sent to Newport News, Virginia and that was a bad place to go. - Why do you way that? - They had a riot down there. I was down there in that riot. - Okay, what was that like? - Oh, it was far as it was Whites, Blacks. Whites were fighting the Blacks and Blacks fighting Whites. - Were these soldiers fighting each other? - Sailors and soldiers. - Was it in the town? - In the town and there were some civilians in there, too. - What were you all fighting about? - I don't know, it's just hard to say 'cause it just started. I think it started by somebody calling somebody a name or saying something derogatory about somebody or maybe it but anyway they started up. It just started up when it did it just grew, grew, grew. - Well did the military police come and break it up? - Yes, they broke us up and then took us all to the base, naval base. Took it all back there and the next day they put us on a boat. - Put your whole company on the boat? - No they put, not the company, see 'cause it wasn't in by company. 'Cause we were replacement people. - Oh, okay. - And they put us on a boat and put us three miles out the water and we stayed out in the water for three-- - Okay, now. - Just so we couldn't get back into town. - So were all of the people in that whole group were all Black? - Yeah. What I was with, yes. - But so that boat that you were put on, that boat was all Black? - Yeah, all except for the sailors. - The sailors were White? - Yeah, they was White and then they had Marine guards that was White on there. - So they were guarding you all? - Oh, they had Marines on all the boats. - Okay, but you were in the Army. - I was Army. - Yeah. So, what did you do after that? - Well, we got on a boat and we went and landed in-- - So when did you leave the States? Do you remember? - Well it was in 1943. We landed in Oran. I don't remember exactly, but I was overseas for 26 months. So and I didn't get back, hm, and I got back to the States, oh dear. - Well, that's okay. But you were there for 26 months. So where'd you go overseas? - Well, I ended up in the 92nd Division. 371st Infantry, 92nd Division headquarters. Now I remember that I was in headquarters. - Yeah, 'cause they fought in World War I didn't they? Yeah, didn't they? - They were in war 92nd Division was, 92nd, 93rd they were all Black. - In enrollment, yeah. - Well, I was in the 92nd and then, of course, they had another Black outfit over there was with the 365th. - Um-hm. - They had a Colonel Queens was a Black colonel. That was the only one. But now in the 92nd Division though we had mostly all White officers. In fact, the noncommissioned officers some of them where White even and some of them Black. Now, I just happened to have a Black one. I remember him. - What do you remember about him? - Well, he just well a Southern boy. See now most of the members of the 92nd Division they were from the South. - Did you have any rivalry because you were from the South? - No, no we didn't have anything like that. During training you get trained to endure lots of situations. And then we went into combat. Course I was, they sent us to Caserta what they called, we called it a replacement depot and we called it repo-depot. And then we saw, well they showed us they said that's where you're going. We saw fire artillery, fire going over the hills, now that's where you're going in a few days, you know. And we stayed there until we got them and then we was replaced see the 92nd Division lost quite a few people. - Well, how did they loss them? - Fighting, killed during war. - Where were they fighting? - The Romano, they fought all the way from, well I went in, let's see I went in at, let's see we was at Caserta. And then well I was in the group that cleared them almost to Massa. And then they put and then the 10th Mountain Division which is Bob Doyle you know our ex-senator? - Right, uh-huh. - His outfit got wiped out. They pulled us out of there and sent us over into the Po Valley. That's where they were wiped out. - And so had your group been trained to fight? - Yeah. - Okay, okay. - Yeah, yeah, oh yeah they were well trained. They were-- - You replaced Bob Dole's unit. - Well, our unit did. - Your unit? - Yeah, and the 371st Infantry Division and we moved around through Po Valley and went all the way to Genoa and so. - Well, so you were participating in this fighting? - Oh yes. - So what was it like? What do you remember about it? The fighting itself. - It was sort of scary. - What'd you have to do? - Well, we had to take on, we had to take on the Germans and we had to fight them. And we didn't, now I actually didn't... Get well exactly what I'd say is where I could see where I shot somebody. I mean 'cause if a chicken jumped up out there somebody, they'd start shooting. And so then you know that was one of the things that was kind of funny 'cause we was in those mountains. In the mountains why if anything that moved at night, why the whole group would probably start shooting into that area. See, but then we might have shot them. I might of, I don't know. - Did you get in any firefights? Did you all start shooting? - Well, yeah. Yeah, we got in a few, but see since I was in headquarters I didn't have to be up there all the time. I was a cipher and decipher machine operator. - Oh. - Yeah, see I deciphered codes and stuff like that. And I had to do guard duty. I had to go up the bridges after, you see, you come out of the mountains and if them people came out of the mountains they'd come over that bridge coming into town. But that's one of the things, one of the few things, that I knew I could remember. And I remember all the carnage that happened over there. I mean we, it was wrecked. I mean artillery tore them places up. You wouldn't believe. They say a tornado come through. Well, those places were torn down just like that. I mean and most of it stone buildings and stuff like that. - Been up there for centuries. - Yeah, yeah. - Well, did you lose anybody in your group? - Yeah, we lost some. We lost, I only remember three. I only remember three that we lost. Do you know the thing about being in the front of them getting shot if this guy goes down the medics or someone'll cover him up. They cover the body up and you just go on by, you know. You don't wanna think about it. You say I'm sorry as hell but I'm glad it wasn't me. That's the way that we felt about it. - Well, that's an attitude you had to have. - Yeah, sorry it was him, but glad it wasn't me. - So you didn't lose anybody that was a friend of yours? - Oh, no, no-no-no. Only people, you know that was another thing, too. We really didn't try to make friends. - Why was that? - Oh, you get attached to somebody and they get killed that would just break your heart, you know? But we just didn't, I didn't know, I didn't get close to anybody. And nobody got close to me. So that was the way it was. - Did you have any, you said you had White officers. Did you have any conflict with them or did you ever, remember? - Ah, no we, we had the sense to obey them. - Were they ever harsh to you or anything? - No, after we got overseas they weren't. They were pretty nice people. - So there was a difference when you were in the States as opposed to when you were over fighting? - That's right. - Do you remember anything in particular about their being different? - Well, we used to, if we had chicken in the mess hall and I got a piece of chicken and put in my pocket and come up there, they'd eat that chicken out of my pocket. I'd give it to them, you know, like that so. Those are some of the things. But I mean we never got real close to them either. Just 'cause and we never, we had only one officer that I knew only Black one Second Lieutenant that I knew. But he got killed. I know that that was one of the three that I know got killed. - How did he get killed? - He was shot. - Was he in a firefight? - In a firefight. Yeah, he was well there was artillery and stuff and it just took the top of his head off, I can remember that. - Okay, do you remember what did you do when you were overseas? What was some of your daily routine? What kind of things? - Well, you know we lived in the tents. - Okay. - And, of course, you know daily routine if you're out there before you go on your duty up to the line or anything well you had to police the area. Just routine Army work. - Well, what is routine Army work? - Well, all right, drilling, marching, drilling, training and instructions. They was giving you instructions about different things. Telling you what you might have to run into and so things like that. - Now when they were giving you the instructions were there Black officers or White officers? - The NCOs were the noncommissioned officers were some of the talking people and then the captains and first lieutenants were White. - But the actual training noncommissioned officers were African-American? - Yeah, they were out there with us. - They were African-Americans? - Oh, yeah some of them. Now, they had some White-- - Noncommissioned? - Right. - Who were also training you in combat? - Right, right. - So when you were training in combat what sort of things do you remember you had to learn how to do? - Keep your head down. Dig a foxhole. Get in that foxhole or stay on the ground. Yeah. - Did you ever have to do that? - I certainly did. Yes, I did, I was... The other one thing that I remember vividly is the fact that I was there was a bridge that went across it goes a little creek. And me and another guy one was on one side of the bridge, one was on the other side. I was right there and three of the artillery shells that fell hit that bridge and then they went off and fell right off in the water. I remember they hit. And see that was, see that German 88 millimeter gun was you could hear a boom and then next thing it was on ya, you know? Yeah, those are the things that. And that was about one, some of the scariest things and especially at night. I mean it was all dark out there. And then there was holes. There was another thing that I remember. I remember when I got shrapnel wounds in my arm and back. We was getting close to the end of the war and we was up to in a British Signal Corps outfit. And we went up in there and they shelled that outfit. And then we was gonna get some breakfast that morning way off in the field. And somehow or other they zeroed in on that thing and you just some fell sounded like a pile of lava falling down. And then-- - So you didn't get your breakfast. - We got it eventually, after it got all clear. Those British soldiers are resilient people. They're crazy. Some of them. - So did you eat with them? - Oh, yeah. - Eat with the British? - Yeah, I did and then, yeah me and several of us that was on patrol. Yeah, we was on there. Yeah, we did that. And they were very nice. - Um-hm. - And they were one of the things that I can remember that they was, of course, I'm young but the British they always had some Scotch whiskey. - And so you were all were sharing is that what you're saying? - They shared a little bit with us. - Well, that's good. How did you all, were you able to have any recreational activities just to while away the time or anything? While you were-- - Well, we always played something out in the company streets. You know just played a little ball out there in the street. It was a wide area where we could play batting balls around. And then those that after we cleared a town, where we were safe enough for us to go into town, some of them would go into town and get some veno. We drank all kinds of veno and whiskey and what we could find. 'Cause what the beer and stuff that they gave us Americans what we were given was 3.2 beer and it was always hot. Hot beer, we had no way of frigerating it. So we drank it hot. And then we had our rations and stuff like C-rations and K-rations. - Wow, well how were they? - Well, the K-rations I liked them. They're those that are canned. It was in a box and then the canned rations certain ones that you get would be all right. You know, they'd have just like canned meat and stuff that you'd get here. - So the food wasn't bad? - Um, well, some cases was, some cases it wasn't. I know I at one time there I got in a place where I wouldn't eat chicken 'cause it taste like wood. It had wood in it and of course that was refrigerated stuff that they sent over. The rations wasn't that great during war. - When you went to the towns in Italy that you all had secured did you go to any restaurants? - Oh, I went to one and they had, they had pasta and stuff like that. They had real good, they were good cooks. Then when I went to, we went to let's see, I was in Genoa and I went into some of the cathedrals there and they were beautiful. - Wow. - Some of them didn't get hurt bad. And then I got to see, Pisa I got up there close. 'Cause we went right through there. - In terms of what other aspects of the war, so you were over there did you just stay in Italy? Did you got anywhere else? - No, we just went from, we went from Southern Italy to Northern Italy. I mean we went all up the coast there. I came down from Naples. I was in Naples at one time. And from Naples all the way up. And there were so many towns in there. The little villages in there that-- - So did you talk to some of the people? - Ah, yeah. I talked, I remember one time a lady that I talked to that she said that she'd been wanting to speak English. She had lived in the United States at one time. And she wanted, she hadn't spoken English for a long time and she wanted to and she gave us, she had a ice cream stand. And I got some ice cream from her. And then, of course in the Po Valley, that's where the wine, all the wine come in and the rich people lived for the Italians and they were fancy houses and -- - Did you ever go inside any? - Yeah, the big old wine cellars. I went in there and we sat down by them. They had them huge vats of where they was curing their wine. We drank those. Yeah we went-- - This is when you were on recreation? This was when you were on-- - No, we wasn't on duty. Yeah, we went in some of them. They would have been, those that weren't damaged they would have been pretty nice, but you know. - So when you were over there, did you remain over there for the duration of the war? - I remained over there for until when the Germans surrendered. When the Germans surrendered and we brought them out of the mountains. Escorted them out of the mountains and down to the point for prisoners, where we contained and imprisoned them. - Where'd you imprison them? - Well, they had, they built stockades and fenced in areas and stuff like that. We went down, they sent two of us two men up in the hills and they had already radioed up there and the Germans had already surrendered. So we weren't afraid of anything, went up, got them. We reported to this Colonel and he was from, he had been trained, I mean he went to school at Boston University. He was a Colonel in the Nazi Army. He was nice guy. - So this was the prisoner and-- - He was a prisoner. - He knew how to speak English. - He spoke English better than me or some of us. He was very fluent. - Uh-huh. Okay, Mr. Tarleton, you were talking about, what were we talking about? - We were talking about that colonel. - Yeah, so how. So where did he go? I mean did he? - Well, see nowadays for when you put the regular, the officers they put them in different compounds. And the regular soldiers they had over in another compound and so. Now, the thing that happened after they brought them down out of the hills, we stopped at our headquarters turned them loose, that's the last time we saw them. - So what do you think happened? - Why I imagine after the war was over they mustered them out just like everything else, you know. - Wow. - That's one of the parts that I don't know about. See we guarded the stockade and when they and when we'd move out somebody else would move in. We don't know, at least I don't know what happened to them. Some of the other people do probably. But, no, that was one of the things. And of course, going into Po Valley there was another thing, I'm backtracking again. Well anyways, when we was going into the Po Valley, the one thing that I saw was a sad thing was where our artillery. See the Germans had started running out of fuel. And they started pulling their artillery guns and things by horses. They had big, beautiful Belgian horses and we slaughtered them. They was laying all along the side of the road. Well, I mean that was war. - Yeah. - That's war. And then that just that was one of the worst scenes that I saw and I don't know why they call it worse 'cause it didn't bother me but we just went on by. And we just went on by and big old horses laying off the side of the road dead. That was and then we went on into Genoa. I got my unit got to Genoa one day after they hung Mussolini. His own people did it in Garibaldi Square, Genoa. So actually I didn't get to see him, because I guess somebody told me that they's gonna burn his body and everything else. They probably did. But we didn't see that, but the town they just all the civilians, they flocked around us, glad to see us and all that other stuff and that was it. That didn't last very long, you know, 'cause they moved us out. And then I went to, they sent us to for R and R they sent us to on up 40 miles from Nice, France. 'Cause see you go right across. And we stayed there for five days in a place called Alassio and it was on the Mediterranean. And we enjoyed that very much. - I bet it was beautiful. - It was. And then from then on after that why they started to bring us all back and we went back to and we left from, we went all the way up to Naples. Then we got on a boat in Naples and was heading for Japan. And they dropped the atomic bomb while we was on the boat and they just rerouted us right on back into New Jersey. - Wow. - So I didn't get to go to Southeast Asia. I didn't want to either. I thought maybe I could and then I ended up at Fort Dix, New Jersey. And they sent me from Fort Dix, New Jersey down to Fort Benning, Georgia. And we was training down there again, course you know you go right back to another. You don't never stop training. - What were they training you for? - For Korea. Yeah, Korea, the conflict hadn't started. I ended up in Fort Warren, Wyoming that's where I got discharged. October, well it was this month. The third it was the third of this month 1948 I got discharged. - So you stayed in for five years? - Five years, two months and 13 days. - Was that by choice? - Two or three years was. - Three years so-- - I volunteered, but I reenlisted for three years so I thought, they told me I go home you know. We was gonna come get back and go home so I took three more years to get out of Italy. - Oh. - And that didn't happen. - Right, yeah. So that was the deal they offered? - That was the deal. - Now, this was while you were in Italy. - Yeah, they did it while I was in Italy. I was with the, see they broke the Black, they broke us all up. They wasn't sending the whole unit back together. They broke that unit up. - The unit that-- - The 92nd Division, they broke it up. They broke us up and put us in different outfits like I ended up in the 38th 93rd Gasoline Supply with the 99th Pursuit Squadron. And that's where I reenlisted. - And so they broke everybody up once they got into the United States? - No, they broke us up before we got-- - I mean once they were in the overseas. - Overseas and then we was on our way. Oh, they broke us up when we got on the boat. I mean they were there. - So when you were over there did anything else you remember about the fighting or anything of the other-- - You know something that's something that I don't remember too much about it. I mean just being sporadic. 'Cause you know during the fighting we was moving fast or had been cleared to use the area, the area had been cleared and we'd move in and keep going and keep going. And they was pulling out at the time. They was evacuating the areas. And when we pulled in there it was all clear 'cause some of us. 'Cause the forward troops, course I was kind of back. And then they'd secure the area and then we'd set up our headquarters. And then it moved so fast that I don't know. It was a fast moving thing there near the end of the war 'cause the Germans started surrendering. - So did you ever have an opportunity to practice your mechanics? - No, not once. Not while I was in the military. Not while I was overseas. Now when I came back to the States and went to Fort Warren, Wyoming I got to do it. I got to practice. I took care of the staff cars and all that other stuff. - But they had given you training for that sort of-- - Oh, yeah, I had been trained. I had at Fort Lee, Virginia they trained you in about every aspect of automobiles, I mean car industry. - So when you were, when you came out of the military at the time what did you think was the most enjoyable thing about it when you left the war in '48? - Well, I can't think of nothing that was enjoyable. I can't think of nothing that was enjoyable. - What do you think was the least, was the worst experience or the least thing you appreciated serving in the war? - Uh, being segregated one of the things, 'cause we used to go even on the bases they had theaters. Theaters were segregated. You had a rope down the aisles and stuff like that. - Really? - Yes, right out at Forbes they did it. - But you're talking-- - And if you drove up on the main post we had theaters in our area. But if you wanted then the good shows you wanted to see if it was up on the main post, you had to go up there and you had to sit in a segregated area. - Now was that true when you were overseas? - Well, we didn't have anything like that overseas. - Okay. - We didn't have anything theaters but no, over seas when-- - Did you have USOs or anything. - Well they had USO shows, but I never did get to see one. I never did get to see a USO show. - How come you never seen one? - Well, they had to go so far and we was in a forward area and where they-- - Wouldn't let them come. - No the USO shows wasn't gonna come up where we were. See, back to... Back to the real, the real bad combat was is, I'm going back I thought about I never told you about, when we pulled out of Massa the Japanese 442nd you probably heard about that. Oh, you didn't. Well, they were famous. They were the Japanese people that volunteered-- - Oh, for the U.S.? - Yeah, - Oh, yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah, okay. - Yes, so they were real and then those guys fought and when they pushed at Massa, when they pushed the Germans out of there they got so many of them people killed they just dug a big hole a bulldozer, a bulldozer and took their dog tags off them and buried them. - And these are the, they took that off the Germans? - No, they took them off the Americans. But see they buried Americans. GRO, Grave Registration people. They'd take the dog tags off of them and there were so many of them killed, those that didn't get hauled out of there, they come out by the truckload. I don't know how, they lost a lot of people. And that was where we was supposed to go and we were so glad that we didn't have to do that fighting. But we moved into another place it was just probably as bad. You know I've got a whole book about the 92nd Division. I've got, a lady from up in National Guard gave it to me. - Wow. - Yeah, so I'll let you see it when I take this thing off. - So when you came back to the States what was it like? What was your discharge like? - Well, we was still in segregated Army when I got back to the States. We were still segregated. And then we went to Cheyenne, Wyoming and that was where I can't remember how I got that on discharge, but I don't remember. But anyway that was Fort Warren and it was all, it was segregated out there. They had the White troops over on one side and we was down on Randall Avenue in nice buildings, nice quarters. And I went to the motor pool and they gave me quarters over there so I'd work on those cars. That was along with another couple of soldiers. - Were they White or Black? - Oh, two of us, yeah two was White. Now we started getting along real good together 'cause we was in a different area and we all-- - So you all socialized? - Socialized together. - Did you ever go out in town? - Not together. - Um-hm. - That was one of the things we didn't do until see in 1947 when they desegregated in the Army. That was in 1947 and I was out there when that happened. - What was that like? - Well, this is the only thing this old White boy come up to me and says, he put his clothes down on the sidewalk said I guess I'm gonna bunk beside you. I said okay. That was all. - You didn't say anything else? - No, then found out he was from Sheridan, Wyoming and he was a nice guy. And then see they put me in, oh, that was the other thing. I was in the Military Police for awhile. And I used to take prisoners from, that deserted and they brought them out there to take them to Leavenworth. I used to come across Canada to Leavenworth and take them up there. And then I'd go up and pick up on the reservation, the Indians and things that had deserted. And of course, when we got ready to pick them up, why we'd have to go down and get the sheriff to go up there 'cause we couldn't go up on the reservation. That would have been a no-no. That would have been a no-no. Your dad's out here Nadia. - Okay. - So when you were coming back to the States did you just decide to discharge on your own? - Excuse me. - I decide to discharge on my own? - Yeah, did you do that on your own or how did you happen to be discharged? - 'Cause I didn't wanna be in the, I wanted on my own. I wanted to get discharged. - Why did you wanna do that? - Well, they was getting ready to have the Korean War. And I just wanted out of there. And I wanted to get out of there. - Okay. - I got out in 1948 and they was, that thing was getting hot over there. And we heard rumors that they was gonna fight. We didn't know it but it didn't start until 1951. - Uh-huh, but you heard about it. - We heard about it and we just knew that it was something hot. And two wars had been too much for me. I might not have made it. - So what was the discharge like? Do you remember what you had to do? Or do you remember anything about it? - Oh, wow, when your time came for discharge well they notified you that-- - But you had to request yours didn't you? - Oh, well yeah. You either reenlisted or got discharged. - So when you, when you were out when you did that so were you discharged from Wyoming? - I was discharged in Cheyenne, Wyoming. - So then where'd you go from there? - Come home. - How'd you get home? - On a train. Got on a train and came here, come back to Topeka and settled down here. - How were you received by your family? - Oh, they were glad to see me. I mean it wasn't no big fanfare but I mean you know they-- - I bet they were glad to see you. Was your dad still living? - Yeah, yeah, my dad died in let's see, let's see in 19, he died 1959. - So he was still living. Was everybody were the rest of your siblings were adults by that time? - Yeah. - Were any living at home at the time when you got out? - Yeah, two. Two of the boys, the ones they went into service nine days after I got out. - And who were they? - That was Ed and Ben. - Okay. - And then they caught up with my brother Tom who was in Alaska and he went in and he stayed. He said, well he tried to volunteer and they wouldn't take him because he had flat feet. And so they drafted him and he got in. He said, well that's what I want and that he wasn't gonna get out. So he stayed 27 years. - So he made it a career. - He made it a career, both Ed and Ben, they both made a career out of it. One 21 and the other one 20. Now Ed is here. - Right. - And he's stayed 21 years. And Ben stayed 20 years and he's in New Jersey. - And they went in during the Korean War. - And they went in in 1948. I got out on October 3, 1948 and they went in, I think it was on the 9th or 10th something like that. And they went and they volunteered. - What was Topeka like when you came back home? - Well, it hadn't changed very much. It was still, it was still segregated. - Was the neighborhood the same? - The neighborhood was pretty much the same, all those that hadn't died. - Right. - There was so many... Well, let's see there was so many people in the neighborhood that died. Like let's see who, I can't, I really can't, most of them. The other thing is that a lot of them left town, you know. Got some jobs, got jobs other places, you know. And like Irving Johnson he went to California. And see in the neighborhood see Joyce Finney used to live in there down there by Monroe school. - So what kind of job? Did you look for a job when you came back home? - Yeah, I looked for a job and I, no, I went on unemployment for 52-20, $20 a week, let's see 52 weeks for 20 bucks a week, yes. And then I went to work with Fred Carson got me to help him do janitorial work. He was taking care of us, the jewelry store and things like that and I was cleaning them places up. And then did that and my unemployment ran out, of course. I never reported it and so they took the money. I never thought I had to report that, but they did IRS and then they got to me for that. - And so then what else did you do when you got back to Topeka? - Well, in 1950 I went to work for Supply Depot. And then I stayed-- - What was the Supply Depot? What was that? - That was Air Force out here, Forbes. Forbes and-- - What were you doing there? - I went to work for it in the warehouse, there. And then I-- - Was it hard applying for that job or getting the job or anything? - Uh, well, I don't know how hard it was, but I got to work for that. I got that job pretty easy I think 'cause I went to, I applied for that job and then I was working at some place else. Where was I working? And I gave them notice that I had another job. And so they said great. Then I went and worked for Forbes for them at Supply Depot. I worked out there from 1950 to '57 and then I transferred to the Air Base and I stayed over there at the Air Base until, from '57 to '76. I retired after 32 years. - Wow. So you stayed, you really stayed with the military? - I stayed in the military mostly. That's where I retired, well mostly. Well, I had military around me all the time. - Yeah, you stayed in there. So when did you get married? - Well, the first time in 1954 which lasted nine months. - Okay. - And then when I married Pam it was 1965. - How did you meet her? - Oh, through friends. - In Topeka? - Yeah. They were out at the base with me. They was the guys about the base. Yeah. - And so when did you all get married? - In '65. - In '65? - Well, she's here. It was two years after she, I married her two years. She was here when Kennedy got killed in 1963. And then we went together for two years. And then we got married. And been married ever since. - Was she from the United States? - No. - Where is she from? - England. - How did she happen to be here? - She was in England. There was guys would marry the English girls that came and brought her, she came with them. - Okay. - How many children did you all have? Two children? - Two, two. And I have two myself and, of course, I've got three grandkids. - That's great. When you came back from the war did you join any veterans organizations? - I joined the American Legion and I'm also one of the life members of the VFW 1650. - What is that? - Out on 10th-- - Why did you join the American Legion? - Oh, I don't know to tell you the truth. A person, they came up and said that there's a veterans organization and they helped military people. - Uh-huh. - Or ex-military people and that's what, one of the reasons why I joined them. - Okay and so what about the Jordan Patterson? - Well, that's the post that I joined. - And that's the post number? - That was the 319. - That was 319. Describe the Jordan Patterson Post to me. - They was an all Black post and they were all Black. - When did they begin? After World War I? - After World War I in 19, I think they opened up in 1918, 1918 or 1921 something like that. I don't know it's something like that. - Where was the post first? - When I joined it was down on 4th Street. It was upstairs by the Metropolitan Hall upstairs. - So what did you guys do there? - Oh they just had their meetings in there. They planned a lot community things they wanted to do like giving Easter eggs, putting eggs for the Easter egg hunt, putting those things on. They tried to do that and they tried to be a community-minded outfit. Of course, now I didn't participate in none of all that stuff. - So these were veterans of foreign wars? - Yes, no, no not the American Legion. They're veterans of, they're just veterans. - Veterans, okay. And that's what Jordan Patterson was American Legion? - American Legion they're just veterans. American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars are different things. If you haven't been overseas, if you haven't been overseas you can't be a member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. - But you were a member of both of these, both of them? - Yeah, both of them. Post 1650 is out on Macvicar, no. - Now is that post integrated? - Yeah. - Was it always integrated? - No. No, it's Phil Billard Post 1650. No, it wasn't. None of them was integrated for a long time. They integrated them things back in the, uh, I don't remember. I think they started integrating them back when the Army integrated. - So what else in the Jordan Patterson who were some of the people that were members, longtime members you remember? Do you remember any? - Um, well, see my brother Ed is a longtime member. - Um-hm. - And some of them that the commander he was stationed out here at Forbes so he just joined. He didn't join til after I guess he retired from out at Forbes. I don't know how long that was. But see there's some... I don't know we're some of the oldest members. All the real old ones have died. - Um-hm. - The real old ones like Fred Carson, Tom Riddell and Mr. Todd and Coleman. All those old World War I guys, they're gone. I think the last one just died, he was 100 and some years old. - Right, I saw that in the paper. - Yeah, and he was a member of Jordan but he was up in Chicago. Ed said they left town. - Uh-huh. - And went up to Chicago and places like that. - So when you came back what other kinds of things after joining the veterans organizations what other stuff did you do? You got married and? - I didn't get married for a long time. - I mean but you know eventually after return. So when did you begin to see, did you have any expectations when you came back home that race relations would have improved? - Oh, I saw-- - Or did you have any expectations? - Well, not really. I didn't have any. Well, I expected things to change because you know people started changing. And then as you started to talking to people or seeing them and they started changing. I don't know how whether it was from their heart or what. - Right, right. - But they seemed to act a little different. - So tell me if you were, how do you think military experiences influenced your life? In what ways do you think it has? - A lot of ways, a lot of ways. I got to see things that I wouldn't have ordinarily. I got to do things I wouldn't have ordinarily. And I was pretty well educated from being in the military. And it's just a lot of things. It helped me, helped me see the world as it changed. And I learned. I learned how to operate as a civilian, you know. - You know you never mentioned your sisters. When you came home where were they? - Oh, Sarah she's still alive. But my older sister died. - But where was she when you came home from the war? Where were they? - Well, Sarah was here at home in Topeka. - She was in the home? - Yeah, she's the youngest. She's the youngest girl. - Uh-huh, what was she doing then? Was she in school or what? - She was in school. Yeah, I believe she was, see she was in school. And then she went to work, she worked out at Forbes out at the Supply Depot, too for awhile. And then her husband told her he didn't want her to work anymore after they got married. And she quit that job and then she went to work with the state. - Um-hm, what about your other sister? - Well, now my other sister. My other sister lived in New Jersey. She just-- - How did she happen to live in New Jersey? - Oh, she went up there with Menniger's family. Now she worked for Mennigers and they wanted her to go up there as a, what do you call, maid or whatever they are. And she went with them and then she just lived there and then she met her husband up there. She just came back here in '85. - And her name? - Her name was Goldie Gray. But that's her husband, her maiden name, not her maiden name that was her married name. - Uh, when you came back home from the war was there any reaction did you notice, how did the African-American community receive you? And I know the war had been over for a longtime by that time. - I really didn't make any difference. I don't think it didn't bother me. Well, I mean it was just one of those things. You walked back and say, hi John, hi this and another you know you just dealt with it like that. There wasn't no-- - What are some of the other guys who had come out of World War II? Were they in town? Did you know some of those other guys? - Only one or two that I knew that came out Terry Phillips was one of them. And he was, oh, I met him, I also saw him overseas. He was the only one from Topeka that I ever got to see. And I guess it was we were so scattered out I never did, we never did-- - Never did see. Now Charles Scott went too, but he was a little bit younger I assume. - Charles Scott? - Uh-huh. - Younger than me? - Uh-huh. - No, I think Charles Scott's older than me. I think all them Scotts is older than I am. - Okay. - I think so. I don't know 'cause I remember when Charles Scott was a junior going to law school out here. - Right. - The judge what is his name, Parks. - Parks, yeah. - Yeah, the Parkses. I knew all of them, Sherman and Sheridan. Sherman Parks worked out there at the Depot also at one time while he was going to school. And his brother, what was his brother's name? - Sheridan? - No, I'm talking about the oldest one. - Oh, okay. - He was married to Julietta. - Oh, yeah, yeah. James. - James Parker. He was, he'd already got his, he was a pharmacist and... When I used to go down to his place to pick up the drugs for the drugstore. So I know about him. He ran that place down there. - Well, when you came back home were there certain jobs you still couldn't apply for because your were African-American or? - Well, see my dad worked for the Santa Fe. I could have got a job with Santa Fe. - And so why didn't you? - I wasn't going out there and work. I thought-- - Where did you dad work at the Santa Fe. - He was down at the car shed. - The car shed. - He worked there. - Did he work with Orlando Dandridge in the car shed? - He probably did. He probably worked with Bill Redmond and all of them down there. Yeah, he was down there. They were all together down there. Of course, the Dandridges well you know I think they came here during the strike, I asked my dad. - Right, and your dad was in that same group? - In that same group. - Yeah, 'cause they were scab workers initially. - In 1921 I think. - Yeah, right. - And they used to have to carry guns with them to go to work. - That's right. Daddy said he always carried his pistol with him. - He had a big old .45. Yeah, they had to fight their way in there and fight there way out, yeah. - But they ended up both being in the union 'cause it turned out to be a union strike. - Yeah, right they ended up doing that and they had that, they had a Iron Horseman's club or something like that. - Right, right. Now that was a car. Those were the attendants in the car. - Oh, yeah, okay. - Yeah, 'cause those-- - Well was-- - They were into private cars. - Yeah, private cars like Tom Merrill and-- - Right, Tom-- - But the thing is I don't know what kind of union, kind of union it is, I know they had Johnny Purcell and all them old guys, the foreman and stuff down there. - Right. - But anyway. - So you didn't chose. - I wasn't going for that. 'Cause I tell you what I did. I was training, I was a welder, training for a welder. And I went to the Santa Fe and I told them, they wanted me to go in as an apprentice. And I said well I'm already trained. They said well that's the way we do things down here. Let's see high pressure boiler worker and it's welding high pressure boiler work. And I said, nah. Then I messed around was gonna go on the police force and my dad said, nah, said why don't you find something else to do. He said because you may, you'll have enemies before you do anything to anybody. - Mm. - It was Bill Jackson and I went down there to apply the same time. You remember Bill Jackson? - Yeah, and he joined the force. - Yeah, he did then. And he was, he was foot soldier who walked a beat down there on 4th Street and so anyway. That was the time that I applied for it. And my dad talked me out of that. And so he said why don't you find something, you can find something son. That's when I went and got the job back with the government. See I didn't do anything that was meaningful right after I got out, you know. Anything substantial you know. - But you always earned a living. - Oh, yeah. I was at home, too. But I had a job, I worked. I worked doing something all the time. - Um-hm. - After I got out of the service that was the only time that I drew any unemployment. - Not ever since then? - I've never drawn any unemployment since. - So when you retired then what did you do? When you retired from the base what did you do? - Well, of course, I had decided already, I got this automobile business. You know I had my-- - Well, did you have an automobile business while you were working? - Yes. Yeah, I worked at the base in the daytime and go come back at night and work the rest of the evening on cars or selling cars. I had, yeah, I sold cars and things like that. Yeah, I had a car dealership, anyway. I dealt, I was a dealer, a car dealer. - In Topeka? - In Topeka. - Did you have a name for the place? - Yeah, BT Motors. I changed it from it was Airport Sales and see I was with a White guy. You know Paul Boyd and then we busted up and I bought him out and went on my own. - When did you close BT Motors? - In 19, no, when I hurt my leg about 2005 or something like that. That's when I hurt myself. - Did you like having your own business? - Uh, yeah, I kinda liked it but I wasn't making any money. - What did you like about it? - Well, it was a challenge. Sometimes you make money and sometimes you didn't. - Is there anything else you would like to add particularly about your military experience in World War II? What role does World War II play in your life do you think? How you perceive it or share it with others or that sort of thing? - You know I never talked about it. - Really? - Never, never, never, never hardly talked about it. - You didn't talk about it at the Jordan Patterson Post? - No, they most of those guys had their own way and they were saying their own thing and I sat back and listened. That's all. I never talked too much about what happened. They never talked about it at the Jordan Patterson Post. They just gathered and took you as you were. - So, you've never shared your story? - I've never shared anything. I've never, never told, I talked to my family sometimes. We'd get to joking around. And with Ed and then we'd get to talking about what happened, you know. - So what did you all say what happened? - Well, like it was just a joke or we acted like it was a joke or something. I remember the time that I had to dive in this trench of mess, you know, mud and stuff, mud holes and everything, crawl through the snow. But we just talked about something like that. Just some things that was kind of halfway funny. - So did you think you had a worse time in World War II or you think they had a worse time in Korea? Which one? - I think both of them was bad. Korea was cold and we was cold, too. We was in the mountains, also. But we did have a better area to come back to than they did. I think Korean War was bad. I think the Vietnam War was worse. I think all those wars is worse now. We lost more people but, and we lost more people 'cause that was a world war. I mean we was fighting a big, bad machine and we was fighting the Italians. We was fighting the Germans. And then the people that Hitler captured, like the Polish, he even put them in the army, made them fight. They fought us but it wasn't because they wanted to. Because when he invaded Poland, he took over the country and took over the people. - Well, how important do you think World War II is in race relations? Do you think there's any link between the two? - Yeah, yeah. They found out that we weren't what they, what they was saying we was. They was saying we weren't very good soldiers. They didn't think we was gonna be any good soldiers, but I don't know why they did that because the 9th and 10th Calvary they fought in the Indian Wars and things like that. And then a lot, we've been in every war. I don't know why they felt that way. But that was one of the feelings they had that we weren't very-- - Did you ever meet any Tuskegee Airmen during this time? Or even after? - Yeah, yeah. I met the big man, the colonel, Davis. - Oh really? - Yeah, he came over there for, we were having, he came over and inspected our camp where we were. - Where was that? - In Italy. - Really? - Yeah, he was-- - What was that like? - Well, we were happy to see a big man. - And he was big. - He was a big man. - Literally, big. - Literally and a very intelligent guy. And then we had there was other Black colonels. We knew Colonel Mann. But he wasn't with us he was one that mediated against that fight that we had down there in Newport News, Virginia. But he was a pretty nice fella. And then I when I got my Combat Infantry Badge, why Thurgood Marshall came over. That was when they was telling we melted under fire and he came over to see. - So it was untrue? - Well, it was untrue. Let's see we were perceived as cowards. But that wasn't true. - What was true? - We fought. That was true. That was one of the things that was true that we fought. - Did you feel like you had to defend yourself when you came back to the States because of that public image? - You're always on the, you're always on the defensive. Anyways you-- - So that wasn't new. - No, it wasn't nothing new. Your expectations were being a little bit different. I mean you didn't expect to be, come back to something like we had before we left. And we did, we came back the same thing. - Um-hm. - But it-- - When Whites knew that you had served in World War II here would they treat you differently or did they perceive you differently? - I don't know, I never. You know that was something I never, never I guess a lot of people knew it but I never did flaunt it you know. I never did. I was just, I just came back and I felt like I was just as regular as anybody else, you know what I mean. I never did go out and try to use that for some exploitation or something like that. - Well, what are you gonna tell your grandchildren about your experience in World War II? - I don't know, probably nothing. Probably nothing. - Would you recommend the military for others? - My daughter went. I didn't recommend it, but she went. - When did she go? - She went in 1992. - Did she ever have to serve overseas. - She went to Korea. But that was a blessing 'cause if other than that well she would have went to her first, Iraqi war. - Right. - But she didn't. She got overseas. She went to Korea. - Did your son go in the military? - No, no he didn't go. He's a minister. - And you didn't encourage him? - Well, I didn't--. - May 18, 2011, my name is Deborah Dandridge and this is the second interview with Mr. William Tarleton. And we're continuing to discuss his experiences during World War II. And we last, we were talking about your, the various things you saw and did while you were in Europe during World War II. Do you remember some of the things that you did and what you saw while you were in Europe? - All right, yes I remember some of the things I did. - Okay. - Not very many, but I-- - Well, yeah, but can you share with us what you do recall? - Well, I saw a lot of destruction, buildings. I saw... Well we had an encampment at, let's see what is it, Viarregio. And then I from there, well no, I went down from Caserta to Viarregio and that was close to the. - This is another test one, two, three to see how this is going to play back. You said Mr. Tarleton that you were in England, I mean you were in Italy and you were entering this town. - What Genoa? - Yes, I guess. - Yeah, Genoa. Yeah and then we stayed in there, we stayed in Genoa for... Some time I'll just say, we stayed there some time. And then we went they allowed us to go on R and R and they let us go to a resort town. I have to... Um, I can't think of the name of the town, but it was on the Mediterranean. And for R and R was you know rest and rec. - So why were you going to Genoa? - Well we were pushing, we were supposed to have been pushing the Germans all that. But that was a fight. We were pushing them clear out of the country. - So when you went in there were you fighting? Were you just marching? Tell us-- - They were leaving and we didn't have to do anything. We didn't do any fighting 'cause they'd already, they'd started giving up. They started giving up and we was just pushed into to occupy the town and that was it. - How did the people in the town receive you? - Oh, they thought we were some of the greatest things ever happened. We got in there and they was glad to see us. Now, the thing about it they didn't allow us, after we went on this R and R and then came back, let me see what was the name of that place? - It doesn't make any difference. - But it was 40 miles from Nice, France. And see 'cause you're right on, you know, the Italian border it goes right on across. You can travel all the way around through there. Well, I didn't go into France. But then after we came back we didn't spend much time, much more time in Genoa and they loaded us on a truck and brought us back. Went all the way back down to Naples, Naples, Italy. We got in the port and they loaded us on boats in Naples. And as we, the war was finished in Europe. And we were on, they loaded us on the boat and we were on the boat getting ready to go to Japan. And at that time they dropped the atomic bomb and they just turned us around at sea and sent us back home to New Jersey. And from New Jersey, of course, they had to figure out where they was gonna send us when we got back to the States. So, I ended up back down in Fort Benning, Georgia. Retraining at Fort Benning. And that was with the 25th Infantry Combat Team on Sand Hill at Fort Benning, Georgia. Now, we're back in the States. - Um-hm. I remember you telling me some of the things that you saw while you were marching in Europe. What kind of things did you see when you were marching through the towns or to your destination? - Well, we saw a lot of devastation. And then we saw people that were, well it was all killing, you know, there's a lot of people got killed when they. Of course, you know they, the field artillery, they just blew those towns apart and those people and I don't see how any of them lived through some of the stuff that we saw over there. But after we moved in when people started coming out we saw. Of course, we didn't spend much time with them. Of course, they didn't allow us to I guess fraternization, is that the way they call it? They didn't want us to fraternize with them. - Who's they? - Our commanding officers and the Americans. - Were they White or Black? - They were White officers, they was White officers. But it didn't stop some of the guys from visiting them, you know. - How did you know that they didn't want you to fraternize? - We was told that, you know, don't bother with those people. You know, they didn't just come out and say it. They didn't just come out and say it, they did come out and say that you don't fraternize with people in the town. I mean from that we gathered that they didn't want us bothering them. - So did they tell that to the other? Did you know whether they, was that just a general rule or did that only apply to African-American troops? - I don't know. I don't know that. And I just, I just thought that was just one of the rules of the game 'cause me not knowing or knowing anything like that. - Was your unit African-American or was it mixed? - Oh no, it was all African-American. The only thing we had was White officers. And the 92nd Division was a Black division. And we had a White general and my, I can remember my, and I was at headquarters and my commanding officer in my regiment was Colonel Nolsteen and the officer that I worked with was his name was Major Romine. I remember those 'cause I was closer to them than any. And then, oh I never, I don't know if I told you that they were, they had some kind of complaint I don't know how it was back in the United States that we was melting under fire. And they sent Thurgood Marshall over there because they thought that we were getting ready to rebel or something, I guess, I don't know. But anyway, he came over to see. That was done by Harry Truman, he sent him over. Thurgood Marshall was the one pinned the CIB on me. That's the Combat Infantry Badge. But. - When you say he came over there. What did he do? - He came over to question and to see what was the problem was between us, I mean between our, I guess between our officers and how the unit was functioning. But they was claiming that we were melting under fire. We were afraid to fight or something like that sort. And that was solved back here in the States, back here in the States. I don't know what they thought but I mean a lot of us guys died over there. - So tell me about some of the war that you did get engaged in. Some of the fighting that you did engage in. - Oh, I was up, I went up in the mountains and I fought up in the mountains. It wasn't something like you probably see on TV where you saw a guy run into towns and fighting 'cause most of our stuff it was at a distance. - Um-hm, um-hm. - That's they way I'll put it to you. The Air Force was... They was bombing them, the 332nd Fighter Group. That was that all Black 99th Pursuit Squadron under Bill Davis. They was all running down there and bombing them and saying they had those railroad guns, they had railroad guns in the mountains. - Um-hm. - And run them out and fire on us and then they'd pull them back. We didn't know where they were. So then we out there was battleships out in the Mediterranean they were shelling in from shore. We used to watch the fire going off. That's all. - So from what position did you shoot? - Oh, shoot. - What? Ma'am! What's wrong? - I don't know. - I just got dizzy. - Okay. - You got dizzy? - Yeah. - Okay. You alright? - Okay, just let it go. Let it go. - You got any pain or anything? - No, just got dizzy. - Just got dizzy. - Well, why don't we, you want me to stop? - Well, let's see, 'cause I wanna work on it. - No, let me just stop then. It's okay. - I just got dizzy.