- 2011, and this is an interview with Major Harvey Bayless in Overland Park, Kansas, in his home. Thank you very much Mr. Bayless for your willingness to participate in this interview and we'll begin with some very general questions here. Carol Burns is also our program assistant, she's also here. Okay, before you joined the military during World War II, where were you living and what were you doing? - I was drafted in the military in May of 1943. At that time I was working as a radar mechanic in Boston, Massachusetts. We had a single African American team servicing the SCR-270 Radar which picked up the Japanese over in Pearl Harbor, but nobody paid any attention to it. And I got drafted from there, and I went into military service. - How did you happen to get to Boston in that capacity that you were working? - Well, when I got out of high school at 16, I went to a technical institute at Wilberforce studying radio technology. It was a two year course, but I only stayed there a little over a year because once I got 18, I had six months experience in radio technology, I joined the Army Signal Corp as a radio mechanic. And because I had some formal training in radio technology, they sent me to a radar school. At that time we only had one African American team, we had two engineers and three technicians. And I went to school there at Signal Depot. - So where were you born? - I was born in Frankfurt, Ohio. Frankfurt, Ohio is a small community about 900 people. It's 12 miles north of Chillicothe, which was the first capital of Ohio. Or about 40 miles southwest of Columbus, little town, I was born and brought up there, I went to high school there. - When the war broke out after Pearl Harbor, what was the general view in your community? How did they view the war? - I can't really discuss that because I was in a technical school. At that time I presume everybody was willing to serve, trying to find some way to be of benefit, or to be of service to the nation. - How did you view the outbreak of the war? - That's a loaded question. I had a job, and I'd gone through this, but again, my job was predicated on the fact that I had taken formal training in radio technology and also had gone to this radar school to become a radar mechanic, to service radar equipment along the coast United States. So it was a job. I was contented at that time to just stay on that job. - So did you have any other views toward the war itself? - No, you knew that down the road they'd be calling on individuals to help. Now if I had been a Caucasian, our work was so important that practically everybody, us civilians were given exemptions, to service this equipment. But again, if I went into service as a military, if it was not an integrated military, so... When I got drafted they said we're going to send you to a group, just being formed to service communications equipment for the black fighter group. And I joined 'em up and in Oscoda, Michigan, in June of 1943. - What was race relations like in the community you grew up or the place where you were in Boston at that time. - Well, that's a good question. Race, in a little town in Ohio, it's where you are. It's southern Ohio is more prejudiced than Northern Ohio. But again, my father, he ran a lumberyard, he supervised a group of whites in the lumberyard, and he was part of the business community. But again, that didn't mean I never joined the Boy Scouts, 'cause the Boy Scouts was tied in with the churches, and we went to an African American Episcopal church. We didn't go to white churches, but we went to an integrated school. And when I went to Signal Depot, to go to radar school, I ran into one little problem there, we had to go a distance of 12 miles from where I lived in Lexington to the Air Depot. In Lexington the city buses were integrated, but if you took a Greyhound bus outside the city, it was segregated. And I'll never forget, one day, there wasn't a seat and I sat beside a southern person from Mississippi and he told the bus driver this can't happen. So they brought the police in and they beat me up. But again, the idea was there, this fellas probably a troublemaker, so they'll say, we'll take care of the damage to your body, we just want to get you out of the area, you don't fit. But again, that was a job, at that time there was no other place I could go, so I agreed to accept what they called, damages to my body and stay in Lexington, 'cause that was the only school there was. I had to be realistic. And we had an African American crew but, once we finished out training, they finally decide to send up to Boston, and when we went to Boston, they integrated, they just said we don't have an all black, two engineers, three technicians. We're just gonna put you out with the teams that were there, white teams. And I felt comfortable. - So go back to this, why did they attack you? - The situation was, in going interstate, blacks were supposed to fill the bus from the back forward. There wasn't any seats, so when I got on the bus, the only seat was the middle of the bus adjacent to this white southerner. And I sit down, I'm paying for a seat. I'm not trying to change the concept in the area. When you go into an area like this, I'm not a trailblazer, even though I'm a survivalist I wanna be treated as I'm any individual. - So when they attacked you, then what did they do? - Well-- - Did they take you off the bus? - Yeah, more than that, not so much take me off the bus, they carried me off the bus. I had been, blood was flying from my face and my body. In fact-- - Who attacked you? - Police. Their statement was that I was attacking them with a billy club. Here I am and he's hitting me with a billy club and my head is ricocheting from the base of the bus. - Were you in uniform? - No, I was a civilian. - You were a civilian. And this is before you were drafted? - Yes. But again, we had Judge, you've heard of Judge Hastie? William Hastie-- - Yes, yes, yes. - All right, the individual in our team, one of our engineers was from Philadelphia and he knew Judge Hastie. So he contacted Judge Hastie, and at that time before he decided to leave the Department of Defense, he was pointing out that we've got to enforce... The military leaders have got to step in and force equal rights when it was stated. So they went out of their way to, first try to get me out of the community and second, to say, okay, we'll take care of the damage. And I never did really- - When they say take care of the damage, what does that mean? - I was in the hospital for a day or two. - So they paid for your medical-- - Sure, yes. - Okay. So, were there any positive dimensions to race relations where you were-- - There's always positive. - If you look for it. I met a fellow named Harvey Walley, a Caucasian from upstate New York. I didn't know I was gonna be in upstate New York, but we got to be quite friends. I really find that, when you're in a southern community, the relationships normally don't exist. You see this when you go into a place and you wanna try on a hat or get a pair of shoes, your services or such, or even going to the library. In Lexington if you wanted to get a book you had to go to the black section and order the book and they'd ship it to you because you couldn't go in and browse. - Where did you live while you were in Lexington? - I lived on a street in the black area, it was about a couple blocks, couple doors down from Phyllis Wheatley YWCA and I ate meals there. Again, I'm just trying to co-exist. At that time I was only 18 years old, I felt like I was quite mature for 18 years old, from the standpoint of being involved in affairs. You know, you go into a community, the first thing I did when I went to Lexington, I talked to the porter and I said where is a good place for a person to get a room? I knew he would probably know the black community. But then I'll tell you another story, when I got drafted they shipped us, we went to Rome Air Depot in Rome, New York, and they sent us by mistake to a white signal company in Columbia, South Carolina. All right, when we got down to Columbia, we said Bayless and the other gentleman with me, reporting for duty. And they said, we'll be there in 15 or 20 minutes. Well then, nobody showed up in 15 or 20 minutes and I called again about an hour and a half later, and they said we were there and we didn't see you. They said would you stand in front of the post box, post office box outside. So we did. And when they came back they thought they were gonna be picking up two white soldiers, there's two blacks, so they said, oh we made a mistake, so stay where you are. And they went back, they had a troop carrier, they went back and got a troop carrier that had a canvas over it, covered, and they took us out to the signal company. - Because they didn't want you to be seen. - Didn't want to be seen, but when we got there, the commander, he was from Columbus, Ohio, he gave us exam, you guys are real talented, we'll try to get you into this. There's a black signal company being formed, and he says all you have to do is take your basic training here, and he assigned us to a black, he assigned us to a black chemical warfare group and we took our basic training. And then when we weren't training we would visit the two black what was it? What's the name...Allen and there's another black school there in Columbia. There's two black female schools and we enjoyed it. We took our, we got our six weeks training and then they shipped us from there up to Oscoda, Michigan where we joined the 1000th Signal. - So when you-- - That's all part of my story here. - Okay, let's kind of get into some of this, what was it, when you were drafted, where did you respond to your draft notice? Do you remember? - Sure. Fort Knox, no... Wait a minute, isn't that awful? - That's okay. - Put you on the spot. - No, I just have to read the-- - Well, that's okay, we can just get that from your essay. - Where's my essay? - This one. - No. - And while you're looking for that, what was it like when you first put on your uniform? - I've got a story on that one. - All right, let's hear that story. But that's okay. - Okay, we went to a, it was right outside of a - What was it like when you put that uniform on? - Well, let me give you an example. I was making about $3000 year back in 1943, which was a lot of money. - That was good money. - So, when I found out I was gonna go in the service I went to my tailor and had a gabardine, dress gabardines for an enlisted man. So the first day I reported for duty, they said this fellas out of uniform and they took my uniform and put epaulets on it, and one of the officers was wearing it the next day. - But it was your uniform. - Well, it was. - It was too nice for you. - Well they say, you've got to have, whatever they give you issue clothing. - So that no longer belonged to you? - Well, I was supposed to turn in everything I had and put on a military uniform. - Well, was the officer white or black that was wearing it? - White officer, at that time, because we were at... Isn't that awful, I've got a mental block. - That's all right, it's all right. When you were going through your first training, what was it like? Do you remember what it was like? How did you feel about it? - Well, I feel that, you know, I'd been away from home for almost a year and a half at 18, so I'd become very independent. So really, in a sense, and I'd been working with military organizations with this radar, so I felt comfortable. I felt that any system they had I'd either be able to beat it or be able to be smart enough. And some of the exams, the reason I got field commission is I had one of the highest, they would give everybody these exams to determine how smart you are, and I loved exams, so I always scored very high. - And that's how come you got assigned to, what were you saying? - They were gonna assign me as African American to this black signal company. We had black officers and it was 97 enlisted men and three officers. - When you were going through your training camp, who were some of your other friends and who were your friends? - Didn't have any friends. - Did you meet some new people that were-- - Not that I remember. - Okay. - What I'm saying, if they weren't gonna help me, you know I was just there to take the basic training, so I didn't fraternize a lot. - Okay, what sort of things did you like or dislike about your training? - Oh, all this basic training is the same. You have to learn to march, you have to learn to shoot. I'd never shot a rifle, and my father and them went out for hunting. But, when you leave home at 16 you're not very mature from the standpoint of involvements, but I learned quickly. I'd become a sharpshooter on the range. - Did you like it? - I didn't like it. I never did, I figure that... I never did a lot of hunting, when I did hunting I used a bow and arrow. How many people use bow and arrows to hunt? - I don't know. - Very few. I want to give the animal, give them an opportunity to escape. - Yeah, but if you're, if you're good at the bow thing, they're not escaping. - Well, that certainly could be. So, we ended up in Oscoda, Michigan. At that time the 96 service group and the 332nd had been moved out of Tuskegee Army Flying School, and they went to Detroit, and they stayed in Detroit for about a month or two. At Selfridge Field, and then they moved up to Oscoda for gunnery training. Now, Oscoda was one of the few places that would accept. Oscoda, Michigan and the Oscoda Army Air Base, we went for gunnery training and this prepared to go overseas. But it was a rural community and they had a lot of these super active African Americans they would bus girls out of Detroit, 200 miles on weekends for parties. So, you know, they didn't have a chance to take advantage of the local girls in the community. Caucasian, 'cause it's a... - Because they didn't want you to. - That's right, well, they made it available so that everybody wants, the buses send the girls, I didn't know. - That was thoughtful. - Detroit was loaded. So it fit the bill. - And okay, so how did you get involved with the Tuskegee Airmen? - As I said again, down in Tuskegee, when they set up the 332nd Fighter Group, they also established the 96th Service Group. The Air Force says we do not want black, we did not want white enlisted men servicing the planes. So with four fighter squadrons in a group, they decide to set up a service group, which at that time, the service group consists of two service squadrons to do our overhaul, major service of the aircraft. And they had a communications group, which is of mine, and they have a quartermaster group and a trucking group. And then an ordinance group. All this was to provide support to the 332nd Fighter Group. - So from, from-- - We all went overseas together. - So did you ever go to Tuskegee itself? - Never, never been there in my life. Now I know that they have a, they have a museum there. - Right, a national park too. - Yeah, I had an opportunity, I just... Didn't go. - So you never went Alabama? - Never, don't say I never. As a civilian engineer, I put in a lot of AC&W facilities. And when I would go to Alabama because, at that time I had a very important job, they considered me white so they would let me go in the and hotels that blacks normally wouldn't be able to go into. - This was after World War II? - Yes, because they realized that I was essential to them getting the project against some other locality. - So, we're back in Detroit, right? - Well, no, we're back in Michigan. - Back in Michigan, back in Michigan. And so when did you discover you were gonna go overseas? - All right, we were notified around the 15th of October, around the middle of October, that we would be going overseas. At that time, the problem was, the Air Force was having trouble trying to place this group. At one time they were going to take the 332nd Fighter Group and move it to Brazil, and Brazil said, we really don't need blacks there, we've got enough. And then they were gonna move it into Africa, and I hate to say this but, some of the African states, even states like Libera said, we got enough. So, nobody was anxious. We ended up going to Africa with the 99th Fighter Squadron, and then after that the group came along later and it joined the 99th when they had moved into Italy. - So, so you did embark for overseas though? - We left from Camp Patrick Henry on January the 3rd, 1944. And we went on this Liberty ship, took us 33 days. - What was that ship like? - Liberty ships, remember a Liberty ship, it'd be about 7500 tons, it could accommodate maybe 800-1000 troops, and it was loaded. - So did you have separate sleeping quarters? - No, what do you mean separate sleeping quarters? I was an enlisted man, I was...you had bunks, and you started on the floor and there was about five bunks up to the top of the ceiling and there's bunks on either side. Now officers were able to have some quarters, even on that ship they would probably put eight officers into a room. - Did you get seasick or anything? - No, I didn't normally get seasick. A good example, when we went on the ship, and this is something personal. I found, one individual says, you can purchase decks of cards, at the PX there, I purchased about half a dozen decks of cards. I got on the ship, I love to gamble, so I start running a gambling show. With nothing to do... And I ended up with maybe three or four thousand dollars, with two bodyguards. 'Cause one thing we did, it's stories like this that in the morning we'd eat around 8:30 and we'd eat again around 4:30. Well, the food was bad and there wasn't that much of it, so I'd wake up, I'd hire somebody to stand in line for me, and then when I woke up around 5:30, 6:00, I took his place in line and then I was always in line first. And the moment I finished going through the line, I'd get my books out, wash my mess kit, and get ready for the evening meal. With nothing to do, stood there in line. Finally got so bad that the chaplain and the mess sergeant said that sets a bad example. So they said we're gonna have the line, the back of the line's gonna go in first to eat today. And lo and behold, the chaplain convinced me to get to the back of the line. So they look, and suddenly I'm coming in from the back of the line. They can't win. Makes an interesting story. You know, even when I was on the ship, you only had a little Musette bag and you had to wear your same clothes. Well my clothes got so full of oil and dirt, my commanding officer says, "Bayless, you've gotta wash your clothes." Well, I came up with the bright idea that I'd just throw my pants over with a rope and let the ocean water... Well, what happened, the fish came up and ate part of my leg. When I pulled my pants up the legs were gone. So, I had to make shorts out of them and I was out of uniform. - Did you get penalized for it? - Well, they needed me. At that time, I was a technician third grade, and then at 1000th Signal, I was the top signal, I was top service communications service rep. I'd gotten promoted from a private up to T3. That was the highest, there was a T3 for operations and T3 of maintenance. - So how long did you stay on that boat? - 33 days. And on the boat, I've got this in my story here, the Germans decided that our ship, the engine went down. And just about a day or so out of Gibraltar, and the commander of this convoy, said I'll leave you a destroyer escort for four or five hours, while you're getting the ship, see if you can get the ship engine running. And otherwise I'll leave you to your mercy, because at that time the Germans would look for stragglers, many of them were there in Spain, and they would attack the convoys. Either by using airplane or by submarine. Well, we were able to get the ship engines started, and funny thing, everybody started to pray. I never seen so many Christians in my life. - So then what happened after-- - Well, we landed in Taranto, Italy, southern Italy, and then we went to a place called Montecorvino. Now when I landed in Taranto, for the first time in my life, I'd never seen a blood red orange, and they have pecan trees and so on, and Italian wine. But the only thing I didn't like was, I can't take even today, what is it, now, I'm hitting some blanks today. You cook with it... - Olive oil? - Olive oil? - No, no, it's a... - Is it an oil? - No, it's a-- - Garlic? - Garlic! Can't take garlic. I told my wife, this is why I stayed away from Italian girls. - Because of the garlic, alrighty So what was Italy like when you got there? - The British had sunk a lot of the German, the Italian fleet there in Taranto, that was one of their major bases. When we ended up on the Tyrrhenian side of Italy, a place called Montecorvino, and we were stationed at an airfield, Montecorvino Airfield, which they had taken from the Germans. We invaded Italy in September of 1943 and this was one of their major airfields. They gave it up, a lot of old German planes that had been destroyed on the ground. We were in an old Italian castle, and we serviced our equipment there. And we would leave there and go to Naples, we had part of the 332nd at Montecorvino and the other was at Capodichino which is a field right outside of Naples. And I always remember Naples because it was the worst city in the world, you could smell it about 10 or 12 miles out. It was filthy. You know they didn't take, during the war it was... - How were the people? - The Italian people were nice, they were nice. They realized that Americans were occupiers like the Germans, and they wanted to exist. - Did you ever go to restaurants there or-- - What restaurants, what do you mean by that? In the big cities, we would get a leave and go to, I went to Rome, the eternal city. One time on a three or four day pass, and I never smoked, so I would take my cigarettes, and when I was in Montecorvino I would take them to a smaller city called Salerno and I'd sell them on the white market, not the black market, the white market. 'Cause I'm the black, I'm selling the on the white market. - All righty, that's very clever, very clever. So, not to get into trivia here-- - We'll see. - Did you continue with your winnings from your gambling, or did you? - I got, easy, I finally got to the point, I got so good that I found people who were better than I was. And I started becoming a conduit. I would, everything I'd won on the ship I lost in about a day or two. There were people who were better gamblers than me. - Now, - I'm serious. - Okay, all right. - I don't gamble at all now, even though we go to Las Vegas a lot. - Mm-hmm, yeah, okay, you gave that one up. So, anything else about Italy that you-- - We went to see the Ruins of Pompeii, that was always very interesting. At that time they'd done some major excavation, and it was, it was very interesting to see how the Mount Vesuvius... In fact, while we were there in March, the 20th, Mount Vesuvius erupted and we lost some of our planes to the fine particles in the air. And even though we had liquid cool engines, it damaged our engines. - Wow. So, what kind of work did you have to do while you were in-- - Well, basically, we just serviced the, with all the Air Force, the planes like P-30s, P-51s, where am I here? All of these, one thing in common, with the exception of the bomber, we had SCR-522 transceiver which was good for about 50 miles. But again though, we had to take care of the control tower, so we had ground base equipment which was more powerful. But the average SCR-522 was only good for about 50 miles. Line of sight, so when we went on a five or six hundred mile mission, the aircraft, our fighter aircraft, the only way they could communicate back to the base, was to communicate with the bombers who had long range radio, and then they could communicate with us. Once you left that 50 mile area you were out of communications. - So where were the Tuskegee Airmen themselves? - Well, they were at the field. We would have, we were with the 12th Air Force, we had the 99th squadron, had gone over, and it was at Capodichino and the other three squadrons started out in Montecorvino, ultimately, two of them moved up to Capodichino with the 99th Fighter Squadron. And then in May of 1900, we were flying the P-39's, which was really a pretty sad aircraft. - Were only those aircraft assigned to the Tuskegee Airmen? - No, they were assigned to other groups. When they went over they were assigned coastal patrol, that was-- - That's what the Tuskegee airmen were-- - Yes, coastal patrol. So we really didn't get a chance to-- - What do they do in coastal patrol? - If a convoy was coming in, knowing that the Germans might try and attack it, what you did, you had planes on the ground, that were alerted that the Germans were gonna try and attack this ship or the convoy, and then we would go out to try to intercept them. - So did you go on these missions? - No, they were a fighter group, only one pilot in the plane. We had to make arrangements for the communications, and that's about the size, but there were other individuals. We had crew chiefs that got up early in the morning that made certain that the plane was fueled and had ammunition and all the others things required, parachutes and such. - So what was your main task? - My main task was servicing radios. - Okay, which was crucial? - Well, it was yes, if you wanna communicate. And control tower, going back. We also had communication responsibility to our headquarters, and there we used ground based transmitters which are more powerful. So we had to report to the 15th Air Force. - So did you ever communicate directly with any of the Tuskegee Airmen during your work time or you just did your own-- - No, no. When a Tuskegee airmen took off in his place, there was always four channels in this, this is a four channel unit. One channel was emergency, and one channel was in case you get direction, you only had two channels. And he was supposed to be radio silence. 'Cause the German ground communications would be able to determine if somebody is communicating. In fact, one of the problems when they first went over, I'm just speaking, is that they were talking so much that they were alerting the Germans they were coming. The black pilots. You know he's supposed to have radio silence, except when, emergency. - So they were very silent. So after Italy, anything, after Italy-- - No there was anything after, when the war was over we all kept-- - You stayed in Italy throughout- - We had no choice, you were in Italy until the war was over. And at that time they were alerting us that we were being shipped to the Pacific. The only people that didn't get shipped would be individuals who were married with so many points. Being a single person I was a prime candidate to go to the Pacific theater. - So, you were in Italy for what, two, three years? - I was in Italy from February of '44 until October of '45. - So in terms of your being there, what did you enjoy most about your work there as a soldier? - Well, we had a job to do and I always tell everyone that we got the same food, we got the same equipment and same support. The 15th Air Force treated all of the groups alike. - So you had the same everything? - Yes. - Now, did you ever fraternize with any of the white soldiers? - Not directly. For example, I got a field commission, so I had to go down to Barrie, and at that time it was reluctance of the Air Force to commission blacks in the field. So we had four blacks that got commissioned. And there was only about a dozen individuals who applied to try to become an officer. I was just 20 years old and I had to put a good positive spin, by telling them that I was supervising about 30 people in communications maintenance. I knew my job and we were keeping the airplanes flying. We were the wind beneath their wings. - So you became a commissioned- - I got a field commission, only four blacks commissioned in all of the Air Force during World War II, and I was one of the four. - Wow, well that was quite an honor. - Well, it was good. The way I looked at it is that they would not allow enlisted men to have mattresses and I had one of those little canvas cots. And even though I'd stopped gambling I was still well off. But I couldn't buy, as a result, once I got to be a commissioned officer I got quite a few more benefits. And another thing too, they brought the Wings over Jordan, this is my group, you've probably heard of the Wings over Jordan? Well they came over and stayed at our group for a couple of weeks, and while I was there, I was escorting one of the young ladies, I had a jeep. She's saying, you don't think I could really go for you, but you're an enlisted man. She says her mom says only associate with officers. And while she was there I got my commission, and she saw that and she said, that's it. - So you started associating? - No, I said I'm gonna be more selective now. - So were there anything else about your experiences in Italy? Any controversy coming within the ranks? Any issues that came up that you-- - No, there were other issues. For example, I indicate the one time, this is hearsay now. That one of the bombers landed, everybody had their own base, the bombers had a base. We had seven fighter groups in the 15th Air Force, and one was black, that was the last one that got there, the 15th, that was the 332nd. One of the bomber groups was forced to land at Ramitelli, and one of the crew members says, I'm not gonna sleep with those black people. But he didn't realize it was February and it's cold there, so they gave him a blanket and he got cold, so during the middle of the night he said, well maybe I will try it out once. So, in essence, there was not a lot of, and the only thing you run into, for example black enlisted and white enlisted would go to a rest center in Rome, we were all together. But black officers and the white officers were not, when they went to rest center they would send them to a different place. The whites went to the Isle of Capri, and the blacks went to some nondescript place on the coast of Italy. But the Italians, they treated everybody I would say, I think a lot of... You've probably heard of this, Brooks used to be the first black senator-- - From Massachusetts? - He married an Italian, he was in the 92nd Fighter Group, of the 92nd Infantry Division. - Did he meet his wife there? - He met his wife there. Yeah, so, there was a few of the fellas. But we never really socialized a lot with... We had a job 24 hours a day, you weren't in a position to fraternize. Seven days a week, any individual, and especially I was in charge of the operation, I had to set a good example. And I wouldn't have done it anyways. I didn't chase the Italian women, I didn't drink the Italian wine, I didn't eat Italian food if I could help it. - With the garlic - So I was a perfect person. - So how did you leave Italy? Was that after the war? - When the war was over, at that time I'd gotten my commission, so I came back as a commissioned officer. And there they put four of us in a cabin together. When I came back and landed at Camp Patrick Henry again. - And so were you discharged from there? - No, at that time I didn't have enough points, so I left there and they sent me to an air base in South Carolina. - What does that mean, you don't have enough points? - Well, at that time, even at that time, you had to have time and service. I got in in 1943 in May, and you had to have, they count points, overseas they give you more credit for that. But I didn't have enough points to be able to get out of service. - Did you wanna get out? - Well, at that time... I didn't have any pros or cons. I had a civilian job, they told me when I left my civilian job that they would try to find the job or equal when I came back. And I took them up on that, but I realize that's based upon the fact that they may not be there. And even that, when I got out of service in March of 1946, I applied for my job in Boston, and they said, well no, that's been taken over by Rome Depot in Rome, New York. So I went to Rome and said, can I get a job? They said we'll only give you a job as a junior radio mechanic. At that time I was a senior mechanic when I left, but we'd get the same pay and so-- - The same pay as a senior? The same pay as when you left? - Yes, yes. I didn't have any job, and when the war was over the nation hadn't started to retrofit to a private industry. And even when they did there wasn't a lot of jobs for minorities. I'd made up my mind early that I did not want to live in the south. I felt like if I lived in the south I wouldn't last too long. Somewhere along the line I'd run into something that would turn me off and, I'd go berserk or something. Even Rome, New York was not like Boston, but is was a northern city and I was treated very fairly there. Then I went back to work there and then I went into the, I got on the GI bill, I entered Syracuse University. I stayed there for about a year and I ran out of money. - What were you studying while you were at Syracuse? - Engineering. So then, after I got out after one year, I decided that even though they were giving some income from the GI Bill, paying my books, it wasn't adequate. So I went back to work at the airbase, at that time I'd been promoted to a senior aircraft mechanic, and went to evening school. I went to evening school for about three years. - What were you saying? - Well at the time I had to switch my program, my major from engineering to physics. Engineering to physics. About that time I was still a technician, so I got an engineering rating once I-- - Okay, let's see trucking group, and what was the fifth one? - Here we go, right here, squadrons. 366 Air service squadron, 367, 1000th Signal, 1051st Quartermaster Trucking, 1901st First Quartermaster Trucking, 1902, 1762 Ordinance - Okay, that's the one. - Okay? Okay, and I was wondering, in your time in the military, in the service, did you ever have an opportunity to oh, I guess, make any improvements or innovations to the communications or the equipment? - The only known procedures, when I got in the 1000th Signal Company, you always heard this story that in the kingdom of the blind, a one eyed man is king. When I went in there I found that even the officers, when I was in Lexington at this radar school, it took four months to get out of the radar school because we found out we didn't have a diesel mechanic to go with us, so we had to go out and scrounge for an African American diesel mechanic. So I stayed in the program and helped instruct, and develop mock ups and so on. When I went in the service I knew every piece of equipment the Air Force had, or the army had, communications. Intimately, I was the instructor So went up to 1000th Signal, the first job I got was some sergeant over at communications, maintenance, he said I want you to build a power supply using an 82. Well, what happened, an 82, the power supply required about three or four amps, and the 82 put about 125 mils. So I went to the commanding officer and he said what's wrong with that? So they were all dumb, not knowledgeable. So I ended up, in about three months, running the whole maintenance facility. And I found out the way I was able to do it, we had a lot of individuals come in, primarily from the south, that really had no training. But they could handle things by rote, I'd give a piece of test equipment, like a meter for testing tubes. And I said, put a line there and I says, boost the tube in, if it hits that line it's good, if it doesn't you throw it away. Like somebody peeling apples or something, you're either good or bad. I tried to make use of the skill because I couldn't change people, couldn't get rid of them. So they're yours, you have to find out what he can do, make it succeed. I felt pretty good at that. - I should say so. - The only trouble is I was always very egotistical. I figured that I was smarter than anybody in maintenance, and they all knew that. And I hate it, that's just one of those things. You know, facts of life. - If you're good at your job-- - Sure. - What can you do. - So I didn't have too much problem with commanding officers because they deferred to me. And I'm only now, 20 years old, 19 when I started out. - How old were you when you left the military? - I was only 21 going on 22. But a classic example, when we were up at Oscoda, Michigan, we went up there and we had a high power transmitter, 400 watt transmitter that was communicating from Oscada down the Selfridge air force base. And the transmitter went out and the commanding officer called our company commander and says, you're 1000th Signal, go over there and fix that set. Well the commander come along and says, does anybody know anything about high power transmitters? And the only person in the organization was me. And I knew about those, I knew how to service them, so I went over and the first day I got the transmitter, it wasn't neutralized properly. I got it neutralized and I found out it didn't have a lightning arrester attached to it, so I hooked up a lightning arrester. Two days later we had a big storm and lightning hit the station and it knocked the operator out and sent him to the hospital. And they had an inspection board and they said, Private Bayless a private, his fine work caused us to be able to maintain communications and keep going. And you see what happened was, that looked good for the commander. - Right. - Yeah, at that time I was walking on water. - Was that Michigan you say? - Yes. - Did anything like that ever occur while you were overseas, in Italy or over in Africa? - In Italy, I was not in Africa. - Oh, I thought you said-- - No, it Italy, our primary job was to... A good example, the Air Force was using radar for the first time. The airborne radar where they were able, and those bombing missions over Germany, a lot of Germany, the climate is such that in the winter months you can't really see the ground. So if you don't have radar, they had these Norden bombsights, but they couldn't see the ground, so they weren't able to conduct bombing raids. And when they got the radar they were able to do this. Well, they didn't have enough radar and they only used a lead aircraft. In a bombing squadron, there's a lead bomber and then there's maybe five or six bombers when he drops his bomb they drop theirs. So that was the bomber-- - And they're behind him. - Yes, right, they drop their... So as a result, what happened was the Germans started attacking these bombers, and because the bombers were located in southern Italy, even to go from where they were to before they went to the Alps is about 250 miles, and then they would go into Germany. Well, what happened was, many of them would be shot at, or damaged, so the United States decided we're gonna put an emergency airfield in northern Italy, right with the British. The British were on, they were on the Adriatic side. And the American army was on the Tyrrhenian side. So we put an emergency airfield in a place called Falconara, which was about 200 miles north of where the planes were, and I was part of an emergency group They went to the 1000th Signals, does anybody know radar? Without regard, the ground radar tied into the airborne. But I knew the principles of radar, so they said when these planes are damaged, we gotta take that radar equipment and take it down to southern Italy. So they would have a C-47 aircraft ready day and night, and we used to have to use mine detectors to go out, because this was an emergency field that we'd taken over from the Germans and they mined all their fields. So, and we would take the radar out and anytime, day or night, a plane would land and take the radar down to southern Italy. And the planes at that time were equipped with racks and cable, but not the equipment. The plane would stay there for service, but the radar was taken out immediately because they needed it for the next flight. They felt like that was a very important job and of all the people prepared to know how to handle radar, I was the only person in 1000th Signal that had any radar experience. - Wow. - Very crucial. - You and I have something else to ask. - I was going to ask you about, as a historian for the Heartland Chapter-- - Yeah, Heart of American Chapter. - Heart of America, I'm sorry. - Sure. - I looked on the webpage and I was trying to figure out when did you start as a historian there? - 1996. - Okay, I didn't see that in-- - No, they didn't have a historian. They didn't have one. - So you volunteered for the mission? - I didn't show you that but, every year I have a big yearbook I put out. - Okay. - Okay. - What do you mean by yearbook, we don't-- - We put out, for example, we have a... I should bring one up from my basement files. - I bet I would love to see that basement file. - You just had a meeting over, what was it-- - Yeah, we had it in April, no May. We had the general... Vincent, and I forget his name, isn't that awful. - That's okay. - He was the commanding general of the, over in Fort... I'm off base today, over in, help me out, over in Junction City. - Oh, Fort Reilly. - Fort Reilly. - Oh yeah, I saw that, in the paper. - Vincent Brook. - That's it. - Yeah. You know I hate to say this, but my mind is, sometimes I have to work on it. - Everybody does, trust me. Go on, did you want to ask him more questions? - I was just curious, in your capacity as a historian have you started a chapter on that or a book, like you have one of these? - Sure. - You've done that already. - Sure. - And is it available? - I'll show you a sample. - Also I was looking on, I Googled you-- - Oh you Googled me, you saw a lot on Harvey Bayless in Google. - I did. - How about that, yeah. - I noticed that they have, is it just audio recordings over at the Jackson County... - Historical Society. - Historical, yeah, it's in Independence? - No, I don't know-- - Or did they have collections of your photographs or your works or things like that as well? - No, not to my knowledge. I've spoken to the Historical Society. - Yeah, it looks like they had some recordings. - Of his speech? - Mm-hmm. Tell me, when you were discharged from the military, what was that like? What was the discharge like? - They sent me to...they sent me to, isn't that awful, again I'm-- - They're making this-- - They sent me to Indiana, to a military base and I got discharged. That was it. They also said we'll give you $20 a month, $20 a week for a year. No, it was $20 a month, yeah. And that was about the size of it. There wasn't any, you were on your own. They had not really completed the concept on the GI bill, and the average African American I felt, I understood their situation because companies were getting ready to retool and rehire, but they hadn't hired that many blacks to start out with. You go into a plant, you find that there was a lot of white females, but there weren't any black females. They felt like they should stay home and take care of the white female's kids. But work was just not available, except for the post office and other jobs. - So when you got out, where did you search for work? I'm sorry-- - I immediately went back to the people in Boston saying I've completed my service, you indicated I was furloughed from my job and they said your job's been transferred to Rome. So I went back to Rome, and Rome at that time had a major project where they were taking these B-29 bombers and retrofitting them for generals and everyone else. So I went back as a radio mechanic, aircraft mechanic. - Were there other African Americans along with you in that same capacity? - There was a friend of mine named Leon Mayall. He was with me all the time I was in service. But when I went up there there was really no other African Americans. There were African Americans at the base, but you see, during the war, the Air Force had to take blacks at the same proportion they book whites. So they had these air base squadrons, and every air base squadron was a group of blocks because they had a low score, and they just picked up cigarette butts and did menial work around the base. So a lot of air base squadrons, well practically all of them, they got so bad that Judge Hastie and some of the others, saying look, they came up with some white air based squadrons, where they had low scores of whites. So in the Air Force, with exception of the Tuskegee Airmen, and the 96th service crew, that was the only technical groups in the whole Air Force. - So, so you were in Rome and then where did you go from there, when you were in your work? - Well, all right, then, the second part in the, I guess you know, Harry Truman integrated the armed forces, July 26, 1948 and I had stayed in the reserves. So, at that time I was working for Rome Air Development Center, I joined a reserve group there. And then 1951 I got recalled, that's what I'm working on now, recalled and spent two years in Hawaii. - When you got recalled what does that mean? - Well basically, when the Chinese entered the Korean war in 1950, the United States decided we got to mobilize, we don't have enough troops. So they called a lot of reserve troops back. A lot of the African Americans, the Tuskegee Airmen had been let go from service and they recalled them back. Now, at that time I was lucky, I was at Rome Air Development Center, and at Rome Air Development Center I was the only black officer in about a couple hundred. What happened, they decided I needed, because I was also communications officer and a radar officer, they said, okay, we need these type of people over fighting there in Korea. So they transferred me, I was supposed to go to the 1808th Wing in Japan, but what happened was, I stopped in Hawaii and the radar wasn't working. And they signed me there while I was waiting to transfer, and I found that the individual, the problem with the radar was the automatic frequency control wasn't working properly. They had a CPS1 and a CPS5, and I go out and contacted people at Rome Air Development Center who designed that and they sent me a kit to service it. So suddenly here's a one eyed man, you know, 614 AC&W. In fact I didn't pick that word then, that was in September of 1951. Well, by December they decided the AC&W group was running these radars just for air traffic control. Planes coming in and out of Hawaii, and they decide to send this unit back to the States. And they said anybody been in the organization for 90 days would go back to the States, otherwise you go to Korea. In the meanwhile, I went down to the Pacific headquarters, and I was only a First Lieutenant, and that they had a rule that you had to be at least a captain to be at headquarters. But they looked at some of my resume and they said this is our man. So Lieutenant Bayless joined the headquarters, Pacific division. - Wow. - As communications staff officer. - And that was still in Hawaii? - Didn't want to leave. I didn't want to leave from heaven. - How long were you there? - I got out in May of 1953, I was there for two years. - What was it like there in Hawaii? - Perfect, perfect. - Where did you live? - We lived in which is a local community, and we joined the local church, we were United Methodist. In Hawaii, the missionaries, what they did, the Baptists took the...immigrants from, who came in from China, and another group took the immigrants that came in from Japan. 'Cause they need a lot of work in those pineapple fields and sugarcane. And the Methodists had another group, so we joined the Methodists which had both haole, which haole is white and a Japanese minister. The haole minister lived next door to us so we got along real well. - When you say we, were you married? - Yeah, I was married, I got married in-- - When did you get married? - Got married in December 3, 1945. - Were you still in the military then? - Yes, I hadn't got out of service, I didn't get out of the service until March '46. - So how did you meet your wife? - I told you, the way I met my wife, I was in this radar school, you couldn't get into radar unless you had a secret clearance. Well, I had to wait for secret clearance, like everyone else, took me about a couple months. And then they sent me down to field radio school, which is right around the corner from where Mamie lived. She'd come by there every day with her mother, and the guys saying, boy that's a nice looking little girl there, he says, I bet you can't get a date with her. Well he didn't realize that I'd met her and make a date to go to see a movie. And I lived catty corner from her on Upper Street. I'd rented a house, a room from a mortician and his wife. It was nice. I was able to go down on the corner, they had the YWCA and Mamie was still in high school. In fact, her parents felt that even though I was only 18, she was 16, I was too old for her. From the standpoint of the, I was mature, I was on my own, and so on. We started going together and then when the war was over she had went to Washington to work in the government as a clerk typist, and I proposed and we got married. - So she was in Hawaii with you? - Yes, by that time we had a young child, a son called Roderick. - That's right, so how did you happen to leave Hawaii? - After two years I didn't wanna stay in. I had a choice, I could go back to my civilian job, and that time I ran into a problem at Syracuse. I had about 58 hours towards a bachelor's degree. They said, you can work up an arrangement, we'll give you associate degree at 60, hours, and technology and then continue on for your bachelors degree because you're doing evening work in the evening division. So I just went ahead and took it. So I got my associate degree in 1954 and I got my bachelor's degree in '56. All right, and yet another thing, the government was saying, well I was doing engineering work, but we don't consider you an engineer, but you can take an equivalence exam. They had a very thorough exam, you've heard of professional engineer's exam? And I passed that, at that time I was the first person to pass the exam. - Wow. - So, exam's always been a good point of mine. You know what I attribute that to? Speed reading, speed reading. - Really? How'd you get into speed reading? - Got into speed reading early. At one time I was reading about, 2100, 2200 words a minute with 90% comprehension. A lot of stuff you read, you're not to be able to read it and understand it and make a decision on it. So many people take exams, the decision process is such that - It slows them down. - It slows them down, yeah. And most exams are set up for time. So I've been pretty lucky. - So throughout the '50s and the '60s where did you work, after leaving Hawaii? - When I came back from Hawaii, I was having some problems with the people at the Center, Rome Air Development Center. So they were starting a new group called Rome Air Depot, and they were setting up a radar program. And as much as I had radar technology before I even got in, I took over a radar division and I put in all the ground radars in the United States. We had three programs, the AMO and STO, and one was semi-mobile and the other was a fixed. So at that time I ended up supervising about a dozen engineers, putting radar all along the United States. I worked with the Center here at Richards-Gebaur back in the '50s. - So how did you get to Kansas? - All right, in 1959 they decided that they were gonna have an Air Force group called Air Force Engineering Installation Agency, for communications. I was one of the people that helped set the organization up in Rome. And then in 1970, they decided they wanted to combine with the group out of Scott Air Force Base, that was doing operations at Richards-Gebaur, and they transferred me out here. At that time I was GS14, which wasn't bad. - Very nice, very nice. So you remained here? - What happened was, when they moved to Scott Air Force Base in 1978, I was 54, I waited until I got 55 and I left the government the moment I got 55, and I set up my own consulting business. And then I started working for companies like 3M and DuPont. - But that was all in this area? - What happened was that most of those companies would have, we were doing some work here on development of technology for fire suppression, and this company had gotten the contract with 3M, and I was the lead engineer, the test engineer. I only worked about five, six months out of the year. I got good pay and then I would go to Las Vegas and donate it to the cause. - That's good. - I didn't stop working until I got to be 80... I stopped in 2004. - You maintained your consulting firm. - I finally got to the point, my wife got macular degeneration and she had to give up her job of driving. So she said I need a driver. You've seen "Driving Miss Daisy?" - You've become that? - Driving Miss Mamie. - That's right, that's right, otherwise I'd still be working. - But since that time that you've retired, have you been able to talk to schoolchildren or-- - Well I belong to a group called, you've probably, Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, and what they do, you want a little bit more of that drink? - I'll get this, thank you. - They go out to, they go out to... That's good, that's good. They go out to some of the schools and places. But the funny thing, it's a sad point, there's not a lot, the most blacks we have in our organization are from Africa, African natives. - Right. - But I've spoken to Central Missouri State, they have an aviation program and I've worked with them on that program. - In terms of you personal life, how many children did you-- - I have two children. - And did any of them to go KU? - Sure, my daughter Kathleen, graduated in '83. - Why did she decide to go to KU? - It's a good school, it's cheap. In fact, at one time... You know my son, a lot of places, a lot of eastern, they feel like there's no other school but eastern schools. If you're not part of the Ivy League or close to it, it doesn't count. But KU is a good school. 'Course she had a lot of fun there and I didn't expect her to be a Phi Beta Kappa even though she graduated National Honor Society in high school. - That's great, that's great. - But she... - And how do you feel about your participation in the war? - Well, I'm anti-war now, the way I look at it is that the wars helped a lot of minorities, have been able to, it's just like this Brooks, General Brooks. His father was a general, his brother was a general, you give him a vehicle to really arrive at a place where they wouldn't have been able to. But the way I see it now, is that the need for high technology, science and technology is such that the average African American student, if instructors aren't too knowledgeable to start off with. I just feel like that I don't see any easy way out. If we're, blacks, are gonna be able to compete. Well, for example, in the west coast, all the better colleges, a lot of Caucasians have trouble because the Asians get their top students, they spend all their time studying, and they're smart as a whip so they're competitive. And when you take scores and all your schools, you have to have a score to get in. Most blacks, to my knowledge, we work on trying to get them in aviation, but I've always looked upon aviation as as skill more or less. I'm not knocking pilots, it's like you learn to drive a car or something. Once you go through the technique it's rote. - How do you view what you gained or what you did not gain from your military experience in World War II? - You learn discipline and you learn to work as a team. All my life I've been a staff officer, and I always felt good about that. I had to be pretty, in this 1842nd Engineering Group, we had about 300 engineers, and there was only one black engineer. I always had a problem working with new bosses coming in and trying to fit in. We played golf together, when we were in Rome we'd go out to the, we had a horse track there. Harvey was a guy that fit in. And to the point where they felt like they needed me. - And you did that quite deliberately? - Yeah, well, deliberately? You gotta face it, there's times that people I had trouble with, but by and large I had to recognize my position. And realize that you're dealing with the people that you want them to bring out the best in themselves. And that's what I tried to do. Even now, some of, my son calls me an Oreo, am I white? We go to a predominantly white church, and we've been going to this white church for 40 years now, we're one of the old members. And I talk with the minister and I says, I brought in some minorities, but they don't seem to fit. The first thing they say is the music isn't right, the preaching isn't right, and we don't feel comfortable, and I can't fight that. - Is there anything about your military experience or your experience during World War II, anything else you'd like to add? - No. - Well, we thank you very much now for your time. - I was gonna bring, you still wanna look at, can I show you that? - Yes sir, we certainly are gonna do-- - And while you're doing that I'll bring up a copy, a sample of my historical material. - Thank you for your time, we appreciate it, thank you.