- Inviting the project to your home Mr. Ellington. This is December the 13th. An interview with Mr. Charles S. Ellington. And his daughter-in-law is here, who is Pill Ellington - Jill Ellington, who's helping out a great deal. We really appreciate your time and your willingness to share your story about your participation in the military during World War II. Let's begin with just some background information. Can you tell us where you were born and you grew up? - I was born in a little town in North Kansas, Sabetha. About seven miles south of the Nebraska line. - What did your parents do for a living? - Well, they just kind of worked around different places. I grew up mostly... They just did different things. - I'm saying what did they do for a living? - Well, just different odd jobs in the town. - Did you live in a home or did you live in an apartment? - Living in a home. - And did you own your home? - Yeah, they owned a home. - Okay, how many sisters and brothers did you have? - I didn't have any. - You're the only child? - That's right. - Where did you go to school? - I started going to school in Sabetha, Kansas. Grade School in Sabetha, Kansas. - And what was that school like in grade school? - Grade school? Well, what was it like. - Mm-hmm, what was it like going to that school? - I was enjoyable, it was okay. I had a good time there. I had a lot of friends there. - Was it a large school? - Not real large, no, I forget how many students we had, but they weren't that many. - How many grades did it have, do you remember? - There was eight grades and two junior highs. - Okay. And everybody went to that school? - Everybody went to school and then went to high school. - Mm-hmm, where there both white and African American studying in there? - Yeah, race didn't matters. 'Cause I was about the only one that wasn't white that was in my class. - Did you have any African American teachers? - No, no. - There were any teachers around that area? - No, no, there weren't any African American teachers. - Okay, what other things did you do growing up? What was your routine in the house, what were your household chores? - Oh, to go to the store, I lived with my grandmother lot. Because my... I lived mainly with my grandmother and I used to go to the store and for her and bring the food back or sometime, a container of kerosene, because we had a kerosene stove that we cooked on. So I used to do stuff like that. And that was usually my household chore. And I would help keep the house clean. - Did your grandmother live nearby? - I lived with her. - Oh, you live with her. And everybody lived in the same house? - Yeah, lived in the same house, except sometimes, some of the others were gone some. Well sometimes, even my mother was gone. - What was she doing when she was gone? - Well, she was working in Topeka. - Oh, so she-- - She was working in Topeka. - How did she get back and forth from home to Topeka? - Well, she just caught a bus went back and forth from Topeka to Sabetha. - Really? - My father wasn't around. - Uh-huh, and so what year did you say you were born? - 1924 . - Okay, all right. And so when your mother would be away in Topeka working, your grandmother was there-- - My grandmother and she worked too, for some people in Sabetha. - Uh-huh? - She worked for some people there in Sabetha. - So what kind of things did you do for fun when you were growing up? - I got a little older, okay, but I've always loved airplanes. I use them whenever I could and had the money from some of my relatives or using my aunt, my mother's older sister, I would buy model airplanes and make model airplanes. I love airplanes, when I was a kid. - Yeah, so did you kind of have a sense of what you wanted to do when you got out of school? - I thought I wanted to fly airplanes. - But I didn't really think about... At that time, there was maybe a loss in flying airplanes in military. I heard of a few, but there weren't too many of us flying airplanes. - Well, what attracted you to airplanes back in the 20s and 30s? - I don't know, I used to see him go by. Used to see him fly by. And every once in a while they landed in a pasture up there. And one time my mother was there at the time, and a male cousin. We went to where the plane landed over the pasture. And they went up for a ride but they didn't want to spend the money for me to go for a ride, I didn't go up for a ride. I didn't go for a ride. I wanted to take a ride but they didn't. My mother didn't have the money to spend for me to-- - Right, uh-huh. So what other kinds of group did you join? What do you and your buddies did you play outside? - Yeah, we played outside a lot, played outdoors a lot. Like, cowboys and Indians at the time. We did see there was a lot of movies and shoot have rubber guns and shoot at each other. - So did you go to the movies a lot? - Well, as much as I could, they were pretty cheap. So I went to the movies quite a bit. - Did you have to sit in a certain place in the movie theater? - Yes, we do that sit in a certain place in the movie theater. - Where'd you sit? - We had to sit in the back, towards the right side of the theater, in the back. - When you were playing were some of your playmates white? - Most of my playmates were my cousins. - So there was a big family of you. - Well, yeah, there wasn't a lot of... I had a lot of cousins but I didn't have any brother or sisters. I did have a lot of cousins to play with. - Okay what about church? Were you attending church, did your family-- - Yeah, there was a church there in Sabetha. I can't think of the name of it. - Was it Baptist, or? - No, it was an Army. - Army? - Army. - And what did you all do on Sunday? Did you have to go every day, I mean, every Sunday? - We, my grandmother would use days when I with her and she would take me to church and we go every Sunday. And then on certain occasions, whenever they had I think it was in one of those June or something like that. Have a program called Children's Day and some lady used to have a bunch of us to get together. And we used to sing songs and she play the piano we'd sing, yeah, we would sing. - So in terms of your growing up, what are some of your best memories growing up in Sabetha? - I can't think of any best memories. - Or what are some of your memories? - Aha, well. - Most prominent memories, I may ask, right? - I know I had fun. I had a lot of fun with my, had two cousins that were like, almost like brother and sister to me and a lot of fun together. - Who were they, what were their names? - The name? - Mm-hmm. - The girl's name was Rosalie and the boy's name was Merit and last name was Scott. - So did you go through the eighth grade in... - I went to eighth grade, yeah, I went to eighth grade, in fact, I went to Junior High in Sabetha. And then I left... My mother wanted to make a permanent home in Topeka. She remarried somebody from Topeka and she got me to come move to Topeka and I started at Topeka High. - At Topeka High? - Topeka High was... Started at the... There was just three years at Topeka High. - Right. - Some were junior and senior. - Who did your mother remarry? - She married a man named James Hickman in Topeka. - And so you came to live with them? - Yeah, I went to leave with them, in Topeka. - Okay, what did Mr. Hickman do for life? - He worked at the the Santa Fe Railroad. - At the shop? - Yeah, at the shop. - Tell me and if you were going... Let's go back to Sebatha when you're growing up there. What was race relations like there? - Race relations? - Uh-huh. - I saw nothing wrong with race relations there. There may have been one or two that didn't like me too well and if they would pick on me, white boys . If they'd pick on me, I had one or two, that would help me. And if we got in a fight, they'd help me. So, race relations up to me was good. - Yeah, you didn't never think about anything that was going on that involves tension between the two groups? - No, not between the two groups. There were places nationally and in Sabetha where, well, maybe restaurants where you couldn't go. Couldn't go into eat something like that. But in paying attention to that, we didn't go into any of those restaurants anyway. - Where your parents active in any NAACP, activity? - No, no. - Or any civil rights? What kind of organizations where your folks involved in? Any organization outside the church. - No, not outside the church. - Okay, all right. So going to Topeka, what was it like making that transition from Sabetha to Topeka that was a little bit large. - Well, Topeka was a large school. And my mother told me St. Charles said, things are different here in Topeka said that, "You'll be mostly around. "You'll be around a lot of white people. "So, you'll be around mostly, at the time we were colored. "you'll be around mostly colored people." So, that was true. In fact, the class I was in, there wasn't large group of colored students there. So we hung together in certain groups. - When you said you wouldn't do, what sort of other things in your life in Topeka as a youngster at Topeka High. What other things did you participate at the school? What organizations? - Well, as far as sports concerned, at that time, and I wasn't interested anyway. Even in Sabetha, I tried a little, I guess it's baseball or football or something like that. I wouldn't do that anyway at Topeka High, but Topeka High was actually segregated for sports concern. And the only thing they would let us do when I was there was run track. And I went out for track. - So did you go to the track meets and that sort of thing or? - Yeah, I went out for track and run track against other schools. - Against other schools? - Uh-huh, yeah. - So, in that there was no segregation in that-- - Not that part of it. Not in track. There was in football and baseball, basketball. Basketball in Topeka High had their own black colored team, they're called The Ramblers. - When you were traveling with the track, did you ever travel outside the city? - No, no, mostly in town in other high schools in town. - Did you win anything in track? - No, I didn't win. Maybe I won a race though. But I guess they got discouraged because I could outrun a lot of the white boys. - Mm-hmm. - But one or two black boys would beat me and I got kind of furious. - So are you-- - I shouldn't have said black I meant color. - What were your teachers like, at Topeka High? - They were good, they were okay. From what I remember they were they were all right. I took the usual courses, I had to take English and history and that sort of thing. And then I also took... I did take a couple years of Spanish at Topeka High and became pretty good in Spanish, because we did have a lot of Mexican students there, and I took a couple years in Spanish, and I wanted to get into the science part of it, so I took physics. I think I get one year of chemistry, and physics. Yeah. - Where were you living in Topeka? You remember your street? - Yeah, I remember, I was living on 13th Monroe Street. - So you were right there right near Monroe School? - Yeah, right near Monroe school. And I actually, when I first went there, of course Monroe School was all colored. - Uh-huh, right. - That's where it was, in the grade school. I used to go down there and play with some of the kids. We'd play four different games, in the Monroe School. - Did you play on the grounds or did you play across the street? - On the ground, usually. - On the ground. - Did they have dances there at Monroe School Senior High? - I think they did. But can't remember too much about it because I didn't participate in it. I wasn't much of a dancer. - So, what did you like about Topeka High as opposed to, going to school in Sabetha, anything new or different? - Oh, I had a lot of friends at Topeka High, boys and girls. - So did you begin coding at Topeka High? - A little bit, there were one or two that I like real well and we kind of got together a little bit, not real much but a little bit. - So what did you do on your dates? Where did you-- - Well, I didn't go on too many dates. Maybe we went to a movie or to something like that, everybody is... - Okay, in terms of your mother and your father, what church did they get involved in, in Topeka? - In Topeka? They never got me a church. I went too far where we lived on Monroe street. I lived 13th Monroe and I think the church was about 15th Monroe, if I'm not mistaken and I used to go there. - So, did you ever go to St. John? - I went to St. John till I became an adult. - Uh-huh. And I think St. Mark was in North Topeka, was it? - St. Mark was in North Topeka. - I think you're talking about Brown Chapel? - Yeah, Brown Chapel. It was our Baptist Church then. Brown Chapel was a Baptist Church, I think. - No, there is Brown, you know Brown Chapel was A.M.E-- - Was it A.M.E? Oh, I wasn't sure. - Yeah, and there is a Brown Chapel in Sabetha. - Yeah. - What kinds of things did you find race relations in Topeka similar to that of Sabetha or how would you describe it? - Well, I guess race relations for the atmosphere was all right in Topeka because I had a lot of friends that I could go around with you know, have fun with. - Did you ever go on 4th Street? Yeah. - What did you do there? - It was a movie, there was a theater down there. There was a theater down there we used to go to. - It's owned by an African American? - Yeah, Carver Theater, and actually, but the only one we could go to theater. And of course there was Max's Tavern where you could go in I wasn't much of a drinker. I didn't drink but I'd go down there, and someone pushing Google. - Where did you go to buy groceries? - Groceries, in Sabetha? - No, in-- - In Topeka? - Uh-huh? - Where did we go? - Well, that's okay. - I really can't remember. - So did you have a car did your family have a car? - My stepfather had a car, he had a car. - Did you learn how to drive while you were in High School? - No, I didn't learn how to drive when I was in High School, no, sure didn't. - Did most of your buddies have cars, your male friends? - There might have been one or two had a car. And in fact that one or two had motorcycles and I don't know where they got the money to do it but, he was talking about Richard Ridley? - Yeah. - Hear had one of her motorcycle. - Really? - He used to ride around a motorcycle . - Wow, I didn't know that. So you graduated from Topeka High? - I graduated from Topeka High. - And what was that graduation like? - Well. - Or you remember anything from it? - Remember whole from an autograph. Remember, we used to, and we head on. I can't remember too much about it. - When the African American students were graduating, did they have to sit in a different place than the others or do you remember? - I think we did set up different place, sure. - So after you graduated then what did you do? - A friend of mine and myself we decided at least he was two years older than me, okay? - Mm-hmm. - He was at Washington University. He was two or three years older than me. I don't know if you knew any of the prices in Topeka? - Yeah. - You did? - Yes. - Did you ever know a guy named Bill Price? - Uh-huh - You knew, Bill Price? - I knew of him, okay. - You knew him, Bill Price? He was at the Walker University. - He and I decided at that time, I'm not sure if the war had started or not. At that time I think it had. I think the war just started. And they had announced that they were going to let colored guys try to fly airplanes. At one time they said they couldn't do it, because they didn't have that coordination, didn't have the intelligence. They were too... They just want to like catch him do it. Anyway, he and I decided we were gonna take the examination for aviation cadet. Which did, he and I. I was just out of high school. He had two or three years of Washburn. And we took the examination at Washburn. And that was in 19 that' enough in the... Right after graduating to Topeka High, which is in 1942. And so we took the examination, he passed it, and I think I passed it, but I'm not quite sure he did better than I did. And he was called into the service of Tuskegee to fly airplanes. And I wasn't. And so they call him to Tuskegee to take the training. And me they didn't call me so I just stayed until I was drafted. I was drafted, like a year later. - Okay. So, what kinds of things have you been hearing about when the war began in 41? What kinds of things in your community do you remember they were talking about before you got drafted? - Well, I can't really remember anything like that, but... - What did your family and friends think about World War II? - I don't know. Nobody said too much about it. - Were you aware of anything outside of Topeka, outside of Kansas? What race relations were like, across the nation? - Yeah, I'd heard about it. We had heard about it because we used to take the papers like Kansas City Call would be full of information like that. And the Pittsburgh currier . - Yeah. - Okay. We used to get those papers and there'd be a lot of stuff about race relations. - And so, when the war broke out, what did you think? Did you think you would want to join it? Even if you did not pass the flying test or what was your feeling about it? - Well, I just waited, and actually 19... In the summer, about July 1943, I was drafted I was drafted into the Army. - How come you didn't just sign up before then. - Well, I just didn't. I have seen it here I don't know I just didn't - What were you doing? Were you working? Did you get a little job after high school? - Actually, the summer before that, between the time I graduated from high school until I was drafted, I went out to Washburn. My aunt paid for one semester at Washburn University. And I went to school there one semester. - What kind of courses, do you remember what you took? - I know I took English, History and some Physics. - Oh, wow! Did you liked it? - I liked it, I was always interested in getting into that part of it. - Did you kind of know what you wanted to do as a career at that point, or do you remember? - Well, I wasn't really sure at that point what I wanted to do. I was sure. - Okay. So when you were drafted, what was that like? Did the letter come to your home, do you remember? - I guess so, I don't remember now. - What did your mother say when you got drafted? - Oh . - Was she concerned? - Oh, yeah, she was concerned, all right. But I guess it was just one of those things. There were a lot of that I knew had been drafted, so I did one silly thing . I called the draft board and, I said, a lot of my friends have been drafted. And I was wondering why I hadn't been. They said, "What's your name?" And I told them my name, about a week later I got draft notice. - So you wanted to be with your friends? - Yeah, I wanted to go to, a lot of my friends had gone and I wanted to go too. - Do you remember some of your friends' names? - Oh, gosh I can't remember too much about it. - Was Charles Scott, one of your friends? One of your colleagues? - No. - Fredrick Temple? - Well, Fredrick Temple, I remember Fredrick Temple. He was just a little older than me. He was in PI before I was. And Bill Gains, Remember Bill Gains, and I can't think of too many others. - Now, I want to ask you this because I'm not certain. Do you remember any women joining in the WAX or anything coming out of Topeka? Any of the women joining the military in the female unit? - No, I don't remember. - Okay, so you were in school when you were drafted? - Well, I wasn't in school when I was drafted, no. I had graduated from high school. And I... - You were in Washburn when you were drafted? - Actually I had finished the semester at Washburn, because I went from semester started in September and I was drafted in July. - Oh, so once you were drafted, then what did you do? What was the process that you had to follow through? - When I was drafted? - Yes. - Well, I had to go to , this will be interesting. I had to go to Ft. Leavenworth to be interviewed and I had passed examination for aviation cadet, okay? Okay, I went to Ft. Leavenworth to be interviewed. So the Army interviewed me, and then it came down to the Navy. I knew I did not want to go to the Navy. - Why? - I did not want to go on a boat, I didn't want to go on all that water, and I told him. They checked me out, you know. And at that time, I had great eyes. But there was an examination you could get where there's a lot of colors in there. Where you could see either letters or numbers, you know? - Like-- So they said," You'd make a good man for the Navy". I said, I don't want to go to Navy. "Why not?" I said, Well, I don't want to go on a boat, or that water. I don't like the uniforms. I told the guy that, the Navy guy. I told him that. I don't like the uniform, and not only that in Navy, there's a lot of discrimination in the Navy. And the guy says, "Oh, no, not anymore. "You can do anything you want to in the Navy" I said, could I fly airplanes in the Navy? He said, "Oh, no, you can't do that." I said, well, I have a, I pull out of my pocket, I said, I have a notice here, where I passed the examination for aviation cadet in the Army. So if I can't do it a Navy, why can't go to the Army and do it man? And they could see I was very determined, not to go at this Navy thing. So this guy says, this officer says, "Okay, you go on then." So they let me go and I went to the Army. - What had you heard about the Navy and it's discrimination? You remember? - Well, yeah, usually when the guys went out they had to be kind of a servant or something like that to the officer, keep their quarters clean. And stuff like that, you know? And they weren't trained to do anything. - How did you know that? - I don't know, I just read about that somewhere. I read about it, that they weren't trained, like that guy, he went out there and grabbed the gun and I forget the guy's name in the Navy. When the Japanese came over. He went out there and grabbed the gun and started shooting. He wasn't trained to do that, he just did it. And they hadn't trained us to do anything in the Navy. - That's interesting. Let me ask this question, so once you were at Leavenworth, and you did the interviews, then what happened? - Well, okay, then I came home. I think I came home. And I had to catch a train, I guess it was a train to go to. For my, basic training. - My basic training. I thought that's what you were saying, but I wasn't sure. So where did you go for your basic training? Do you remember? - Yeah, I went to Camp Crowder. Camp Crowder Missouri, for basic training. - How did they have to send you there? - I don't know, but they did. - Okay. - They sent me to Camp Crowder Headquarters, in a black outfit and they trained me to shoot all kinds of guns, bayonet training, the whole works. After you finished Camp Crowder, you were ready. and a lot of them did before I heard that they're about to go to South Pacific to fight the Japanese. So that's what they were training us for. - Do you remember the name of the unit you were with? - No, I don't remember the name. - Okay. Well, tell me what that basic training camp, what was the physical condition, what was that like? Were you in tents, were you in barracks, that were made of wood? - Barracks, yeah, we were in barracks. - You weren't just in tents? - No, no, we were in barracks. Sometime we had to go out in the field and for, they want you to get all kinds of training. So they make us go out and, into the field and maybe pitch a tent and stay all night or something but maybe there'll but maybe somebody cook our meals, cook for us the next day so we could have something to eat. Something like that. - So this was an all African American unit? - Yeah. - Where any white officers or, you remember who were your people over? - Well, actually the the noncombat were black, but the officers were white, and often are white. - Who were some of the people that you met? You remember any people that you met? - I really can't think of the names of them. - But what do you remember about them? - We got along fine, I know there were some from St. Louis, counterman seemed like to me. - Were there any from Topeka with you? - Yes, there was. I can't think of their names. - Okay, did you meet were there some from this from the Deep South? - Oh, yeah, yeah there was some from all over actually. - How did you like meeting all those people? - I liked it, okay, we're done I'm fine. I liked it much-- - Was it different for you because they were all over the country. No, no, no, it was different. We got along fine. - So after your training where was a white basic training camp nearby? - Remember, I don't remember too much about the white basic training camp. - But you don't remember one being nearby? - Yeah, I don't remember that. - Okay. Did you feel like the conditions were what you'd expected? The physical conditions were what you expected for basic training? - Yeah, I thought, so, yeah. It was it was definitely basic training and we had to we were trained to do it all. Everything from a pistol to those big rifles. Carbine rifles and all that kind of stuff, machine guns and whatever. - Had you shot guns before? - No, except for when I was a kid, I did have a rifle that I owned myself a little rifle. . - When you first put on that uniform what do you feel like, what do you remember about it? - Oh, I don't know, I just knew that's the way it was supposed to be. - Okay, what did you do after basic training? - Basic training? Okay. They did some extra work on me to find out if I was qualified for anything and they, found out I had aptitude for from radio training. And they sent me to, what's the name of that place they sent me to? - You know what, state it was in? - Yeah, it was in was in Kansas. - You was in Kansas, okay, so? - It was down close to... - Fort Riley? - No, it was down in the southern part of Kansas. - Okay. - Right across from Camp Crowder. - Okay. - Well, not close to Pittsburgh. - Okay, that's good, and so you really stayed in this area. - I did, I stayed in this area. - So what did you do with this and that? - Well, I took some radio training. And in fact, they were training some guys to climb poles and string and fake lines. I didn't have to do that, but I did some things there that, some radio training until they found I I was pretty good, and they sent me to, Daniel Field, Georgia for actually for some radio training. That's where I learned how to be a radio operator. - When you were in the camp that was initially training you for the radio, were you with an all black unit then? - Oh, yeah. - Was this a different group than what you were directing? - Yeah, it was a different group. - And then they sent you to Georgia and that was a different group? - That was a different group too. - But it also was segregated. - It was segregated, except the traders were white. And that's where I met those in that picture where you see all those guys. That's where we all got together down there, in the radio training. There were eight of us, and we got radio training. And we ended up in Goblin Field, Kentucky Radio operators. We had different town-- - Where in Kentucky? - Goblin Fields. - Okay. - And that's where Colonel Davis was the commander. And one time it was a little white commander, segregated. But the at the time I was there, Colonel Davis had taken over, so it was all black. - Okay, all right. So what was that like living in those quarters? What was it like? - It was good, it was good. It was nice quarters. - When you say nice, what do you mean nice? - Well, it was good place to live though. The barracks were clean and everything. And the guys were, we got along fine together, yeah. - What was your daily routine in that camp? You remember what your daily routine was? - The daily routine? Well, there were days when we had to, when we got trained, we had to operate the radio for eight hours and then we get, of course it was eight hours so we get some time off. And what we did was send messa up and down the East Coast, from New York to Florida. And maybe sometime an airplane. If they a had radio operator on an airplane but mainly we'd send messages, like I said, from base to base. And whatever message we were received from them, we had to decipher it from the code, nor Morse code, and type it, and make a make a record of it. So we could turn it in. - Did you enjoy that? - Yeah, I did, I enjoyed it. - So in terms of your communication was there a supervisor over this group of eight that you were doing that, did you do have a supervisor? - Oh, yeah. - And who was it supervisor, was the person black or white? - Oh, he was black, the whole thing was black. - Were they hard on you? - Not necessarily. - Did you have to go through physical training there? Was that a part of the routine? - I don't remember any physical training I have done. - But you just did it at basic training. - In we go get basic training very, very physical, very physical. - I get it actually, so what did you do for social life? Did you went off on did you go off the face or-- - That was well see this was... Oh, yeah, sure. Some of those guys we go to... I should go back to Camp Crowder. - Sure? - But that was outside of St. Louis. - Right. - And they told us do not go to town alone. If you go into town or group because there's gangs there, and they see a soldier and they will gang up on you and probably beat you up and steal your money. So we didn't go to town by ourselves. We were the group but anyway, Camp Crowder. It was close to Louisville, Louisville, Kentucky and so I'm not sure if we went down this time we went to Louisville got the bug with the Louisville a group of it. Most the time seemed like to be well, just went around to different bases but different places around, closer to our airfield-- - When you went off did you have some off limits of places where you could not go? Because you're an African American soldier? - Well we knew there were some places we couldn't go, we just live there-- - What were those places? - Aha? - What are the places you couldn't go? - Well, places where that you can go, restaurants, places where they had maybe entertainment and stuff like that. - Did you go to churches, there did you attending-- - Very, very liberal I would try to go to church only on the holidays, Christmas, Easter, places like that. I really didn't go too much, but-- - So you never did socialize with the group that lived in the in the town here? - No, no, nothing not, they took the groups and laid it down though we didn't. - So after you were doing radio things that... well did you do anything else while you're in during World War II? - Actually were training us. Colonel Davis was a commanding officer. 'cause he, before I got there even he had a group of fighter pilots went to, well it was actually went to North Africa then they have some training. Then it came back to Germany and escorted some bombers. It was bombers escorts and bombers over over Germany and the bomber B17 we're all white. A lot of good realize that, the black pilots were there escorts. - Did you know that at the time when you were still in Kentucky, were you aware of that? - No, I was there at that time. That was before I got there. - Oh, you describing what other things did you do while you were in this camp as a radio operator? - Well, that was the main thing, actually. Let's say, the whole base of being trained, the Commanding General for Washington, DC came down one diamond was all stand out there, and stand out in attention, you have to listen to what he had to say. And he said, they know what to do with us. - What do you mean they didn't know what they doing with them? - Just like they didn't know about the trained pilots. They know what to do that, they know what to do is but we had bombers on the base B25 bombers, and we have fighter planes on air P47 on the base. So they were ready. So, they know what to do with us, they know whether the whether we were ready or not, there's general came and said, "Okay, you guys have enough training now." So and I think he said in in August you're going to be wanted to open out a fight to Japan. - Including the radio operators? - Your arrow all of us are going. Yeah, the whole group, the planes, everybody connected with that base was going. - And that base was all black? - All black at the time, yeah. - So then what did you guy go when you heard that? - Well, I don't know. I know what to think. - What are your concern? - Yeah, I'm so concerned about going over there, 'cause I knew that it would be a battle but I knew that it would be okay, 'cause we had airplanes going with us. I know how he's gonna get there, I don't know whether as we on the plane to get there, or that'd be on a ship, I didn't know. - You do mean you walked at ship I think-- - Well it'll be okay to go on a ship to go there, that'd be okay I just didn't want to Navy. I wont be a member of the Navy 'cause I knew that, they were gonna treat me right, was that a bit okay. They go on a boat to go to anyway, and you might have heard President Truman want to put an end to the war. So we said, between nine bomber was atomic bombs on it. To the Japanese will not give up, they will not surrender. They wouldn't stop, they want to keep fighting till the... I guess they will kill us all. So anyway, isn't the B29 I bombers over there too, and drop bombs on two cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki? - How did you hear about it when you were serving there at Kentucky? How did you hear about the bombing-- - Well, you know, I don't know how but again-- - In any of the messages that you took, did you get a hint of what the war was doing on the descific front? - No, I don't think so, I don't think-- - What were those messages that you all were conveying and translating, what were they usually saying? What was the information being shared, what kind of information? - Guys I can't remember. I can't really can't remember. - Okay, so but you didn't know what about the war with Germany? Do you remember anything while you were there in Kentucky about that? - Germany? - Aha. - No, no we except what I maybe read or heard or something. - So, after Truman dropped the bomb then what did you do? - Well, we were very happy because we knew the war was over, the Japanese would we figured they would give up, what we would they would surrender, which they did. And they made ownership out there and the, out there it goes to, Hawaii I guess it was. - What did you do? What did you do and all that was going on? What were you doing? - Well, I is just doing my job. And but, yes probably he might show me what to do. I except do my job again. - Did you like what you were doing? - Yeah, I did, I liked it, I like it very well . I like the guys I worked with, and I liked what I was doing. - So then after the bombing, then what happened? - Well. - To you. - To me? - Aha. - Let's see, I was in the bombing. See, when was the war is over. I think was October when they finally surrendered, okay? It was by force to do except do what we probably had to do, and get ready for either stay in and, stay in the service or go take a discharge. - So, what was your choice? - I took my discharge. - Why do you make that choice? - 'Cause I want to get out . - Why do you say that? - I had never been to the war. So I just got out. I came home, I took my discharging home, and, I think it was January night. See, that was in 45, 46. - You came back to the Beacon? - I came back to the Beacon, I came back to GI Bill divorcement And, met my wife there. - Who was your wife? - Who? - Yeah, who was your wife? - Her name? - Aha, right. - Her first name was artists ARDIS. Gonna be your host heard amenities - Yeah, amenities. - I have a couple of Macridge - Yeah. - Yeah, okay, that was my wife. - And Mr. and Mrs. Gurd Luis lived in that area. - Yeah, right. - When you came back home did they have welcoming parties for you? - No, I don't remember, I don't like that. No, what Green Party . - When you came back home did you meet your other friends who had come back home too have been serving in the war? Did you see them and meet with them? - Oh, sure. Yeah. - So, what made you make the choice of taking advantage of the GI Bill versus just finding a job? - Well, why did I do that? Because, I wanted to go to watchman, oh, I had an idea I wanted to be a, I want to be an engineer. So I want to go to watchman. And I want a way to be an engineer, get some knowledge in sciences. So that's why I did that. And I had three years coming to me. So I went all three years. Actually, when I met my wife, the first verse of Israel was there, and then we got married. - Mm-hmm. - Okay, and, She had a job. - Which she's doing? - She was working for a doctor in Topeka, I gotta remember, I'm not ready. Yeah, of 'cause I remember in Topeka, and I was like watchman who was living in Topeka. - Did you live in a home or in-- - First place review that was out there, on Western Gage on October three. And I... - Was a it an apartment? - No, I wouldn't say it's an apartment. We had a room with kitchen privileges. I try to figure these peoples name, the man who we read it from had been, the Principal of Monroe school . - Turner? - No, not Turner, another guy, or maybe another school. - Okay. - I was seeking the watchman, maybe in Washington School. Her daughter was a teacher. His daughter was a teacher in Topeka, don't like school. Oh the name. - But, he so... So you did you graduate from Washington? - I didn't graduate I had one semester to go and I didn't go. I got job, I got job. - Oh, what do you do? - Well I work for different federal agencies there in Topeka, I worked at the Forbes Airbase at one time. Ended up at the Post Office, in 1952. I fought my game. Yeah, I ended up into Post Office. - So, you took civil service? - Sector Civil Service. - All right then. - And I wanted two 'cause, I knew I couldn't go to and finish up to be in my engineering degree. I knew I couldn't do it. Because I'd had to go into K.U and I was married and then I knew I didn't couldn't handle I didn't have the money for that. - Mm-hmm, why? Did you have children by then? - Not by then. I'd have children till, I start we're going to Post Office. My daughter was born as that time while in the Post Office. - So, how many children do you have? - Two, daughter who lives in Newark Delaware now. And she was in lot of times she was here even into Topeka, but she's in California. - What do they do? - My daughter had a great job at a bank and she worked up, to a bank executive. - Mm-hmm, wow! - At Wilmington Crust. And well the bank sold out to a bank in New York. So, now she's out of the job. She's looking for another job. - So this was in North Carolina? - No, it was in Delaware. - Okay, their real in Delaware? - Delaware. - Okay. - And my son is trying to get into, and he's doing pretty good. He's trying to get into acting and modeling. - Oh, right? So he's on the West Coast? - He's on the West Coast in California. That's, my daughter-in-law. That's her husband, they've been married for 15 years or so. - When you're serving active duty, what would you say, if it were some of the things you enjoyed the most in happy duty? - I don't know, I can-- - What did you enjoy the least? - I really can stands out, they are like-- - They really can stands out in your mind. When you got to this job, was there a lot of competition in civil service and getting a job with the Post Office? - Well, that's an examination. And only pm well, they were given a break to the veterans. - Right. - They were able to break through the veterans at the time. And it might have been moving better not to got a bigger break. But they were going to break the veterans versus somebody that had never been in the military. So, I take an examination, get a reasonably good score, I guess, but still, they gave me a break. So I got into the Post Office. - Let's go back to your being discharged. Do you remember what that process entails, when you were discharged? What did you have to do, to get discharged? - Oh, well, once I-- - Both to found the military . - I almost made a mistake. I signed up. They won't know I'm was moving I was stay in work I want to do? I signed up for three more years, so I could get... Some additional... - Benefit? - Yeah, benefits and training and go to... I had to go to Kansas City to get some training, and they paid me for that, and I didn't have to go with that often. But I had to go to Kansas City and get some training. And not only that, they said, you could get an airplane fly some place, wherever you want to know. Get your military plane fly some place. So that was appealing to me. - Yeah. - So anyhow, I was glad that I want it ended. Once that is I will get ended up in Korea. - So you decided not to do that, not to pursue that is that right? - It ended just in time I got discharged from that, do just in time before a Korea war started. Yeah. - When you came out of the war and you were at the Post Office. Did you join any veterans organizations or any kind of veterans activities after the war? - No, I can't speak about it. - Did you do on the Jordan Parison Paul? - No, I showed him. I went there some but I didn't join it. - Okay. What kind of things do you remember about your experience coming back home and do on it? What you remember somebody experiencing you had or was it hard getting back home or is just a different place? - Coming home is just different. - How do you view your participation in war, what do you think about it? - Well, I'm a little disappointed in my participation. - Okay? Why, explain that a little bit more. - Because I want to fly airplanes. And I didn't get a chance to. And if somebody says, I did questions all the time. We go out all that, we dressed in a different uniform, in whatever we are not , but we dress in a... I know you've seen these pictures. We've seen pictures of the... navy blue coat, gray pants, badge and if people ever guys some of all military and everything white or black. I wish you're glad you guys were there. I wish you're glad you did what you did. You really saved us a bunch of trouble. Oh my gun stars, and I save ourselves. What wouldn't, I do, I didn't fly airplanes. - Okay, all right. But you did manage in the radio operator. - I didn't do that. - How do you think your military experience influenced your life? - Influence my life? I can't say that influenced my life anyway that I can let go. I can't say it bad. - Okay. Is there anything else you would like to add about your experience during World War II or afterwards? - We'll, I can't think of anything, I think I was very fortunate to go through the war and not have to, go wherever... Shooting and bombing at all that doesn't work, very fortunate. All the bases I was on, got to feel very secure. Maybe there wasn't any it didn't feel like you loss, what happen to you or anything that... So, yeah. - What advice would you give to young people today about the military? - About the what? - About the military-- - Oh. - For joining the military? - I got a grandson that's about that age. Just want to go do it. - Why? - To me, I shouldn't say this I guess but it means this stuff going on now. Afghanistan, Iraq, that's a big... Nothing. They shouldn't never happened. - Do you think, compared to what World War II raised out? - Yeah, 'cause they weren't there's nothing going on there that worthwhile for them to give their lives up for. - But you did feel that way about World War II? - Yeah, I feel like okay, Japanese started the war. It's time for us to get back at him. And Germany-- - How about Germany? - Oh, Germany, I don't wanna talk about Germany too much 'cause we didn't think about who won there. But the Germany you know, they were bad boys too, but I hadn't thought about Germany I'm talking about mostly about the Japanese. - What do you think at Topeka when you came back from Kentucky to Topeka, did you see any changes in Topeka at Japan or did you notice any changes, particular particularly in race relations? - I don't see it, I cam back in-- - 46. - 46. Things about the same, we're in 46. I know that there is still places where you couldn't go, cook in a restaurant you're good to go. And, Have never ever in my wife and I got married. Best place we go to Kansas City and go to Gucci's Cafeteria. - Best place. - You remember that place? - Yeah. - That was the best place to go. And you could go there and there'll be all kinds of people in there, that look bigger, like green or some of those Cafeteria. You couldn't go there at the time I got . - What about, when Reverend Brown and the other 12 findings, got involved in there round the board challenge on the Topeka level, what did you think about it? - I thought it was really great that they did that, I would involved in it, but actually they were members of St. John. - Mm-hmm. - All over any life were at that time-- - Were a member of St. John at that time? - I see it when was at-- - In the 50s. - In the 50s? - Mm-hmm. - I've been on that just a new member there at that time. And, yeah, 'cause I knew all those people, yeah, remember there, and, all around a life, all around, I actually when I lived on in Oakland, actually I didn't know how to have at Legend Street, I learnt it from a relative viewer . - And right now. Yeah 'cause they had a little love restaurant there . - I used to him come by the house 'cause he worked at Dunlavey. And, my minister at... What's at church? In North Topeka? Now in North Topeka that your is an AMV. - Oh, St. Mark. - St. Mark, AMV. Yeah, St. Mark, AMV. When you was the minister there, and no event except I used to go by the house. And-- - You come in the Reverend Brown. - Yeah, again Reverend Brown when they start this going on about this, it was to members there in St. John, that has a lot to do with it. Alvin. - Todd? - The Todds. Yeah, they had something to do with it. And actually there's a street or something. - Right. - In our memory-- - After her, yeah. - Yeah. - 50 secretary the NAACP. - Yeah, and they had something to do with it. And they remember their St. John, you singing the Men's Choir. And I remember her. And... - Were your children going to school at town in Topeka? - Where to go to school? - Yeah, were your children-- - I know, especially women. My daughter was old enough to go, at that time, we were living over in Oakland, and, she was a State Street. State Street Elementary. - Yeah, State Street, was it all black at that time? - No, no, it was it was mixed. But when we moved over around that. We moved over on like Baker Street. My daughter was, she went too well, keep going to Monroe, towards State Street, that she went to Boswell. - Junior High. - Boswell Junior High. 'Cause it was mixed too . - Yeah, we all are Junior High? - Yeah, Junior High. Yeah, a creying mug, and then of course when the son came along, he's a lot younger. - Mm-hmm. - He's like younger as my daughter when he came along, many went to walk. No, . - Well, so did you all get involved in the PTA or anything like that? - No, not really we didn't. - What kind of organizations did you get involved in Topeka? - No, not at Topeka, I can't think of any organizations I got involved in. - All right, okay. - No. Reverend Brown's wife. She remarried after he died. - All right. - She goes to... - In terms of your life experiences after the war, how would you characterize it, whether they're good or how would you characterize your life after serving in the war? Do you think you got a benefit out of it? - From the government, I did, yes. From the government GI Bill. - All right. - GI Bill helped me buy my house and sent me to school. - Mm-hmm. - So, yeah, I got some benefits out of it. I feel that GI Bill is a lot of big help. It helped me get my loan from my home, at a lower interest rate. - Did you get your loan from a a white bank? - We haven't, Government Federal. - Government Federal, and we had that in the , that's interesting. - You have to think ? - Right. So is there anything you'd like to add about your experiences during World War II and afterwards? - I can't think of anything I'd like to add to it. - What would you like for people to remember? - Remember? - About your experiences in World War II? - Guys, I don't know. I don't know. I can't say everything-- - Okay, all right. Well, I appreciate your time and thank you very much-- - Well after . - For hearing your story. Thank you. - Okay, I'm happy that you did this, 'cause I'm really concerned about it. This interview and I'm glad that you did... - Okay. - You took your time to do this. - Thank you sir. - I hope it worked out, okay? - It actually did. - I don't know. - Okay, I appreciate it, thank you. - Okay, all right. - Can you were just talking about, how did you communicate with your folks in home while you were in Kentucky? - By telephone? - Mm-hmm. - By telephone, we talked each other on the phone. - What would you be telling them? - Aha? - What would you tell them? - Well, there were times when I needed some money. - Did they send you other packages like food and stuff? - No, not like that, but there were time when I need some money because, it was a time but to have somebody stole my money, and I need some money so... we didn't get much hit though, and there was no days anyway. - Right. - They were paying back, but anyway. Okay, well, thank you.